Evolution question (consciousness)

[Agent 008]

As far as I understand, only humans are self-aware and have consciousness. Although it seems that there are no external tests to check if a particular being has consciousness (or none have been suggested so far), I don't think that the most simple organism (e.g bacteria) have consciousness. That leads me to believe that consciousness appeared in us through evolution.

But! The problem with consciousness, is that as far as I understand, a being either has it, or hasn't. There are no states in-between (correct me if I'm wrong). I also suppose that consciousness is not a simple feature, that could just randomly appear in an organism through mutation of genes. So.. how exactly did evolution come up with consciousness?

It's really the only question that stops me from disregarding some sort of a creationism theory completely.

You bring up a good point... but I do believe the answer lies in evolution.

Also, a lot of this has to do with your definition of being "conscious". If you simply mean to be aware that you exist, then human beings are by no means the ONLY self conscious animal.

I'm no expert on evolution, nor do I claim to be... but just from high school biology I remember looking at different organ systems that get more and more complex as you work your way up. Although no, bacteria does not have the capacity to think or be self aware, you start to see in earthworms a very simple nervous system, with what I assume would be the first developmental stages of a brain.

If brain structure and the nervous system show patterns of evolving complexity, and consciousness comes from the brain and nervous system... does this not show the evolution of consciousness?

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by Kazz

You bring up a good point... but I do believe the answer lies in evolution.

Also, a lot of this has to do with your definition of being "conscious". If you simply mean to be aware that you exist, then human beings are by no means the ONLY self conscious animal.

It's hard to define "consciousness", really. It's the difference between a computer that it as intelligent as a human is, and a human. Basically, in my opinion, a non-conscious mind doesn't get a choice; it works like a programme; while a conscious mind does have a choice, and can make certain decisions just because "it" wants to. E.g. now I can raise a hand, but there's no logic or reason behind that. I've just decided to.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's really damn hard to define it. If anyone knows any good resources where I could read about it, I'd appreciate that.

Originally Posted by Kazz

I'm no expert on evolution, nor do I claim to be... but just from high school biology I remember looking at different organ systems that get more and more complex as you work your way up. Although no, bacteria does not have the capacity to think or be self aware, you start to see in earthworms a very simple nervous system, with what I assume would be the first developmental stages of a brain.

If brain structure and the nervous system show patterns of evolving complexity, and consciousness comes from the brain and nervous system... does this not show the evolution of consciousness?

It works in theory, but in practice, I can't imagine having a population, and then one of the species gets born with a mutation that gives it a conscious mind, and is the only conscious being in an unconscious world.
Although, having said that, I can't think of any external symptoms of a conscious mind; so if I was born with such a mind in a world full of robots, who have the same level of intelligence as me and are of the same species as me and look the same as me, but just haven't got a conscious mind, I don't think I'd notice. And if I would notice, last thing to come to my mind would be the idea that they could lack a conscious mind.

Humans may not be the only creatures with self awareness.
Here is a link about elephants.
http:../../www.livescience.com/animals/0...nt_mirror.html

Originally Posted by Agent 008

But! The problem with consciousness, is that as far as I understand, a being either has it, or hasn't.

I don't think it's an either-or question, an entity could have a degree of consciousness. For example, does a dreaming person have consciousness? What about someone at the very instant of waking up? Or a baby, what degree of consciousness do they have?

I don't find it difficult to imagine a species which has a degree of self-awareness, while not having it developed to the same degree as humankind. A chimpanzee might even fall into this category.

First you need to define what exactly you mean by consciousness.

Research indicates that both apes and dolphins are self-aware.

Is a two-year-old child "conscious"? Apes are at least as self-aware as that.

Well, human development would argue against the notion that you're either conscious or you aren't. At one point a human being is a single fertilized egg cell, which grows into an embryo, then a fetus, then a newborn baby, then a toddler, then a child, then an adult.

At what point does consciousness turn on? It doesn't happen in one blinding flash of illumination, does it?

It's pretty clear that chimpanzees and other apes have consciousness in the sense that they recognize themselves in the mirror. A human baby can't do that.

Consciousness isn't magic, it's just an ability to recognize the self. Social animals need to understand the behavior of other social animals so they can navigate the social hierarchy. And to more completely understand those other social animals you have to understand yourself, since those other social animals have the same equipment you do. If your pack-mates are trying to figure out your behavior, in order to figure out their behavior you have to figure out what they think your behavior is going to be. And that's consciousness.

[BrokeProphet]

The fact that many animals go out of their way to not die should hint that they are aware they exist and that they are also aware of non-existence.

The great ape family is one that mourns over the dead. They express emotions the same as we do. They lack vocal chords, an opposable thumb and the large complex brain we do. Otherwise they are the same as us.

Hell we share much of the same DNA with the great apes especially the chimp. This is b/c we belong to the same family group and evolved from a common primate ancestor.

Originally Posted by Agent 008

It's hard to define "consciousness", really. It's the difference between a computer that it as intelligent as a human is, and a human. Basically, in my opinion, a non-conscious mind doesn't get a choice; it works like a programme; while a conscious mind does have a choice, and can make certain decisions just because "it" wants to. E.g. now I can raise a hand, but there's no logic or reason behind that. I've just decided to.

Surely, you're not saying that (non-human) animals are automatons in a way which humans aren't, are you?

Sure, I can raise my hand whenever I want to, for no particularly concrete reason at all. I've never seen anything which suggests that, say, a dog isn't the same way.

[AngryFemme]

Originally Posted by Agent 008

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's really damn hard to define it. If anyone knows any good resources where I could read about it, I'd appreciate that.

Happy to oblige

Consciousness Explained
Kinds of Minds
Content and Consciousness
The Mind's I

All authored by Daniel Dennett, the last one co-authored with Douglas Hofstadter.

[Obbe]

Personally, I believe everything has awareness, and our form of consciousness is just a form of awareness which is aware of lots things which aren't as aware as we are. And theres probably many things aware of us and everything we are aware of, that we cannot be any more aware of then a rock is aware of us.

But....thats all lies.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by AngryFemme

Happy to oblige

Consciousness Explained
Kinds of Minds
Content and Consciousness
The Mind's I

All authored by Daniel Dennett, the last one co-authored with Douglas Hofstadter.

Thank you, I'll look for them.

[Rolloffle]

Humans are created with eternal souls in the image of God, animals are not.

Evolution is a lie from hell.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by Rolloffle

Humans are created with eternal souls in the image of God, animals are not.

Evolution is a lie from hell.

So as far as I understand, as time goes by, the number of souls in the universe gets closer and closer to infinity?

Originally Posted by Agent 008

(correct me if I'm wrong)

Sure you're conscious. But what does that mean?
Philosophy has been trying to find that out since the beginning of time.
To someone looking at conscious human, what does he see? Probably an organism behaving normally, eating, drinking, mating, living it's life. Communicating.
The only thing special about consciousness is to the individual experiencing it.
Humans have emotions. Surely animals have emotions too! You can see them showing a whole range of human emotions. Love, hate, jeaslousy, lust e.t.c. If they can -feel- even at a lesser level; does that make them any less conscious? I don't think so.
What about communication, that's special to us? No. Just ask Koko here, if koko can talk, then is she conscious?

We think we're pretty special. Because we can feel all these amazing emotions, go places in our head.
But is that mixing pot of senses just a mixing pot of senses. Is it just a freak un-evolved offshoot.
I would imagine so.
Just like we didn't think non-whites had souls years ago, I think we will look back at our planet in hundreds of years to come and wonder why we didn't believe that our consciousness was not unique at all!