HAHAA, no its not actually. As much as jeb will want you all to believe it is, its really very simple. I dont trust him. We talked about it in the #mods forum and everyone that I talked with agreed that he needed to be removed. It has nothing at all to do with meta or mlor or cosmo really. according to one of his friends he has shared at least partial #mods logs, he has went behind both mine and zoks back and removed or exempt bans, he supports trolls, overall I dont trust him and I dont feel that he is worthy of the title "moderator" at our wonderful site. Thats all it really comes down to is trust and very few people trust him at all. I have had it with his shit and I have all ready spoken (emailed) Jeff about all of this. I removed his title last night and removed him from our channel as well. Anyhow I just wanted to let you all know so you dont fall into some big drawn out conspiracy crap he is going to try to pull. Its not that in depth at all. I dont trust him and I reserve the right to pick and choose my mods at totse.com

I think I missed the conspiracy all together, I take it I need to visit SG more?

Yeah, jeb has been handling things in his own way quite a bit lately.

I've heard about Meta doing quite a bit that I don't agree with, but it doesn't seem to be an issue. Meta already knows we moderate differently. :p

Wow, I guess avoiding SG keeps me out of the loop.

Ah well, I'm sure he stepped far too out of line.

It's the illuminati...

It's the illuminati...

That's a strange typo of the word "Jews"

I had to cut through all the bullshit but I didn't find much, you could always try your luck at it:

Hard to take anything in there seriously with so many insults flying around (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2048059)

After sifting through the trash, it seems that a few members are taking the whole idea of "I remember the old good days", a little too far.

I think the removal of the moderation status was more than within reason.

By the sound of his posts, looks like he didn't even understand his role as a moderator.

Ah well, it's dealt with.

What forum did "jeb" moderate, again?

One of the Tech forums if I'm not mistaken.

Also, is "jeb" short for something? I really don't recognize the name...

jebuonag

What Dr. Ol Raw said

He modded Network Insecurity.

You warned him quite clearly this last week in the 'poster's thought' thread. And he's been here long enough to know that when you talk in that way then its time to back down and stfu.

He choose to ignore it and start another 'campaign'.

Its a shame cos he was a great mod for many years.

But you gave him a chance, personally I wish he'd taken it.

There's so so much bullshit going on in B&M, or atleast there was yesterday.
People whining about how Meta sucks, how Totse sucks, how Totse has 'changed', how all the mods suck, ect ect..

It strikes me as odd they'd stick around in a place they clearly despise, especially if they despise the actual rules set out clearly by the actual owner himself.

This (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2048059) thread seems to be full of shit too.

It makes me wonder, the people who bitch about totse,whilst using totse, are they the same people who are morbidly obese, yet eat at McDonalds, and then sue McDonalds for 'making' them obese?

There have been events and seemingly new concepts within the forum recently, relatively recently at least, that demonstrate changes, if they are negative or positive is up to each person to decide on their own, to moderation policy.

That is an indisputable fact.

jeb is now getting some fun out of pointing it out.

Is it safe to say that the vast majority of the people here agree with the decision that was made? I'm trying not to get too involved in this dispute, but it seems like I'm being forced into it. I'd really like to know where other people stand so that when Jeb comes talking to me (which I know he will) I can tell him, "Well, the majority of the other mods thing you're entirely right and that you should be remodded" - or just the opposite.

Anyone who's been here for a while knows that I like to understand all sides of the situation, so if you DO think that the actions were unfair, I want to know why. I don't want to support something that all of the mods clearly disapprove of simply because nobody voiced their opinions...

I've read what the peanut gallery (SG) has to say already.

Trust is the most important part.

If you can't trust him, then he shouldn't be a moderator.

It should have been a group decision between all the supermods. He should have been very clearly warned he was to be de-modded if he continued.

Having said that, if he was bitching about totse, then it seems odd to 'work' for totse.
It's like being a party member of the conservatives yet voting labour, or being a member of the KKK and being from north africa.

Like anyone who has ever posted on the tech forums I both like and respect Jeb, very much a lot.

And until I read what acidmelt had written about this then I would have said that de-modding him was unfair.

BUT

If acidmelt says he can't trust him then thats final in my eyes.

Basta.

As much as it truly saddens me.

I said something similar here http://www.totse.com/community/showpost.php?p=8869240&postcount=119

It's your decision, you're the admin. He was a fine tech mod, even if he did always go digging for trouble. Regardless of how we got along though, he moderated well and argued well.

Plus, I really think he had a point; totse is starting to have a censorship problem.

Well Zok, I actually think we should know the full story because so far the only thing I've found are the dozen "TOTSE is dying of cenc0rship" threads and Acid's reply in here.

Excluding Sambob, I think a mod whose been here as long as Jeb (4 years if I'm not mistaken) would have to have done something pretty bad to get demodded overnight. Jeff gave Neptune 2 weeks to explain his actions, I think Jeb should be given the same honor.

I wouldn't say the "vast majority" of us agree with anything, simply because we don't know what happened!

Well, to be honest Zok, I don't think most of us know enough about the situation to make an informed opinion..

I was told in the #mods channel that he showed people posts in this forum, but that's all I've heard about that, so until there's any real proof that posts were leaked, and that he did it, I'm assuming that jeb was just the 'best guess' because he was already being accused of posting #mods logs.

Anyway, I guess I can understand that AM simply doesn't trust jeb anymore.. But he's not the only admin. Since you're staying out of this, Zok, I'm guessing there wasn't any real discussion about whether jeb should be de-modded or not (correct me if I'm wrong), and I think he deserves that much at the very least.

I don't think the opinions of jeb's co-mods are nearly as important as yours, in this situation. :p Personally, I think there should have been more talk about it before anything was done. Most of us had no clue anything was happening until jeb was suddenly de-modded. But we're not admins, and it's not up to us. I'm just saying, with Trousersnake and Sambob we all saw it coming. Shouldn't it get to that point before something so drastic is done?

I'm just saying, with Trousersnake and Sambob we all saw it coming. Shouldn't it get to that point before something so drastic is done?

You must be speaking for youself, I currently didn't see it coming.

and Acid's reply in here.



uhm isn't that all we need to know? Acid doesn't trust him and has had enough.

*closes Jeb-File with heavy heart*

uhm isn't that all we need to know? Acid doesn't trust him and has had enough.

*closes Jeb-File with heavy heart*

Not really, Zok just asked us what we thought about the situation.

I knew a fair bit about this and I definitely could see jeb's de-modding coming. Hell, even jeb could. To me, it seemed like he'd gone beyond trying to make his point and ended up doing it for the hell of it.

However, I'm not clear as to why exactly acidmelt can't trust him. I heard rumours about him showing people posts from this forum, but absolutely nothing about that from him or any other mod. I've also heard a different reason from MLoR as to why he was demodded, which amounted to "we're sick of all his shit" but with more cursing. I've got different information from different sources and it's getting confusing. I'd like an actual explanation from acidmelt, instead of a statement.

I've got different information from different sources and it's getting confusing.

That's why I think it would be much more helpful if Zok/Acid told us what's going on.

Edit: The reason I didn't post my feelings first, was because I wanted to give anyone who was involved and did see what happened a chance to tell their view uninfluenced.

Well, since it seems that most of you are thoroughly confused about why anyone would distrust Jeb, I'll say it. The following may not be all of the reasons, but they are some that have been referenced and not explained:

We originally started having problems with him on IRC. He was insistent on removing bans set by other operators. After he was told that he was not allowed to do this, he did it again. Then I had to step in and tell him myself. Later he set an exemption[1] on the person who was banned. This was when acidmelt removed Jeb's half-operator (+h) status on #totse. I think[2] that I then talked acidmelt into giving him voice (+v) out of respect. For what it's worth, the ban that was being disputed was cosmo - one of Jeb's friends.

The logs that were leaked: A while back one of Jeb's friends repeated something to MLoR (which I'll let him share if he wants) which was said in #mods. I ran that day's logs through a script to find out who exactly was on the channel at that time (I don't have that list currently but I can rewrite to script to reduplicate the results). Of the people who were on the channel, only Jeb seemed of suspect. He did not admit to it, but when I confronted him about it recently he did not make a very convincing case against it either - in fact, he just refuted it without argument. It is still up for debate whether or not it was him, but almost everyone who was in the channel at the time believed it was him.

Someone else probably knows more about the screenshots better than I do - I believe it occurred while I was on vacation. I'll let someone else tell that story.

Aside from that, he's gone out of his way to question almost every ban and thread closing by meta, acidmelt, and mlor - many of which were entirely legitimate. Usually there isn't a problem when someone questions a ban, but I will outline how Jeb usually did it: 1) Harass the person who set the ban until it gets reversed, 2) when denied, go to a higher power and repeat step 1 on the higher power. Now I don't mind people taking other moderators' bans to a an admin if they don't agree - in fact I encourage it. But when an admin makes a decision and you don't agree with it, tough cookies. You don't bother them with it every time you see them, you don't undo their bans, and you don't go and make comments in B&M about how the administration is censoring everyone. Moderators are supposed to use this forum to discuss serious issues that they have with other moderators or admins.

There may be other feelings that Meta, acidmelt, or MLoR would like to voice, but those are mine.

Outside of the reasons above, I think he's a good person who has good intentions. He's just going about things all wrong. It is my opinion that we have given him enough chances. Him being demodded recently had little to do with what occurred in B&M and SG. It had been talked about many times before. I in the past I talked acidmelt out of it, but I don't think I can fend for Jeb any more. However, that doesn't mean that what Jeb was fighting against (unjust bans and censorship) is void. In fact, I think that there have been a lot of unjust bans and an unusual amount of threads being deleted or edited. Jeb may have the right idea, but I think he is going about it all wrong.

Footnotes:
1: An exemption is commonly used to allow a particular person into a chatroom. It is an anti-ban. If I ban everybody in the IP range of 134.204.20.* (the * means "anything") and then set an exemption on 134.204.20.201, then that address will be allowed into the channel without taking the ban into consideration.

2: I could be wrong, I don't really remember whether or not he was added back to the access list as +v - if it was, it was because I requested it. I know acidmelt and I had a conversation about it and he did not want to do it. I just don't remember whether or not it happened.

Based on that, I think the de-modding was entirely justified and that it should stand, at least temporarily. Perhaps in the future he could be re-modded, but that depends on his conduct and if you admins are willing to give him another chance.

I too think that he had the right idea and the wrong ways of going about it. It seems to me like he got to like being a kind of 'crusader' and seeing how far he could push things, and that it was as much about that as it was about dealing with problems on Totse.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Happy on this as well.

If you have a problem with the site and wish to fix it there are better ways to go than the ways he did, maybe re-modded in the future but not sure about now.

Like I said, I actually like the guy and I think he's got good intentions, but it's getting in the way of him doing his job. Furthermore, it's preventing some of the rest of us from doing our jobs. I stepped in the way of him getting in trouble more than once in the past - I'm growing tired of it.

Its not acidmelt's comlpete side of the story, but I dont need to know further. Enough justification for his removal was given in your post, Zok, in my opinion.

Its hard to earn trust back, and in some instances you cant. The anonymity totse gives us makes it very difficult for him to redeem himself. I dont look for his giving back of powers.

listen up buddies, this wasnt a sudden decision. Both zok and I have given him numerous warnings. And it wasnt always for the same thing. He disrespected the admins and his fellow mods on many occasions. I would have and was going to remove him MANY times in the past but zok always talked me into giving him another chance. You only get so many chances in my book. He has used his last one and this wont be a temp removal. He wont ever be back on teh mod squad.... ever. If you are wondering about the sharing of mods logs and screenshots, it is true. I cant really say much more than that as I was given the info and promised not to release the persons name. But that was only a small contributing factor of why he was removed. there was a lot of problems with him and even though he knew the subject of his forum it doesnt make it ok do what he has done in the past. zok thinks hes a good guy and i cant comment on that as the only times he ever talked with me was when he was causing more problems. anyhow just wanted to add this final note. my trust in a mod can only be broken so many tims before it doesnt heal.

Your mom's a conspiracy!

I don't care one way or the other about this, but damn it all the &totse drama is going into other IRC channels and it's making them poopy :(.

You're telling me. I can barely talk in my own channel without getting interrogated by 4 people I don't know.

[...]
Okay, that's all you needed to say. It seems like a perfectly reasonable decision now that you and Zok have explained it. I assume I'm not the only one who was completely out of the loop on that one.. :D

Aside from disagreeing with how I mod, I can't understand why Jeb seems to have me in his line of sight, so to speak.

Yeah, there are other Mods who also disagree - at least to some extent - with how I mod. Not to mention any names [Mr Happy :p]. But they have always kept it civil and if they had a direct problem with something they would - and do - check with me and usually things are worked out. They have never gone saying they think I could be a narc based on my income and such, then tell others in another channel that they know I'm not a narc. Nor have they called me gimp, cripple, or any of a number of descriptive phases [that kind of thing doesn't do much more than annoy me a bit. The repetition of it all is more annoying than anything said].

It seems that with Jeb that compromise means doing things 100% his way.

Up to very recently Jeb, too, had kept things mostly civil - more so than Autopsy/Biopsy, so there was no real problem - that I knew of - apart from not agreeing on modding. But then things started to get less than civil, shall we say, on his part.

Besides the narc labeling* - again, which is really not that big of a deal since anyone who matters knows it isn't true - not to mention it [I]is only the internet. Still, it was annoying, to say the least. Apart and before that, though, was the unbanning that Zok mentioned. When I was told about it I was also told that when AM asked Jeb about the unbanning, Jeb tried to say that I unbanned the guy. This was my first indication that Jeb was now making things personal now. Why I still don't know.

For the record I want to state that despite the shit I got from Jeb, I did not retaliate. I argued and defended myself. But I never did anything to get at Jeb. I did not cause him to lose his hop in #totse, I did not drag AM into that thread in B&M, and I did not have anything to do with him being de-modded. Granted there was the time I kick/banned him in #totse. But that was for him removing another one of AM ban's. And yes, OP's don't usually ban another op. But you don't unban someone else's ban[s] either. Besides, I knew he could unban himself and rejoin with one command, and he is a fool if he really does think that I didn't know that and had thought to actually ban him as he has claimed.

That's not to say that some of his complaints against me weren't valid at least to some extent. But he never once sought to bring up his concerns here, or to email me. No, he chose only the most public places to bitch at me. And in a most uncivil fashion at that.

But I also think that he is suffering the same affliction that has a large portion of people blaming every locked or deleted thread and ban on me - not to mention the ills of Totse as a whole. As has been pointed out, other Mods now are locking more threads than I do - for the most part. In fact, I was gone this past weekend and had no internet access. When I got back online and checked at SG, I had to laugh because I saw more locked threads on the front page than I had seen in quite some time.

One of his complaints that held some validity was regarding certain bans I made. But I think that that has been taken care of and shouldn't still be a problem.

What was was about is that I had been giving people infractions, then reversing them and explaining that I was only giving them a warning this time and that I had reversed the infraction - which I did.

Now the problem with this method is if they were the kind of bans that triggered an automatic ban, that even though I had reversed these infractions the bans could only be reversed by a Super Mod or higher.

Now I did get a few people who emailed me saying they still couldn't post. But since they were a very small percentage of all who I gave warnings to, I chalked it up to the system and so asked Zok, AM or MLoR to unban the person for me. I had assumed that since no body else had complained that they were ok.

When Jeb found out about it he didn't actually go ballistic, but close enough. He made some colorful remarks about my modding, myself, and perhaps even my linage . And he did tell me that what I was doing didn't work. That the ban were not reversing with the infractions.

However, I chose to not believe him. I figured he was just spewing more shit and trying to get me to do things his way - again. I know now I was wrong not to believe him, but hindsight is 20/20, right? After all, I was under the impression that it wasn't true, else wouldn't more people be emailing me that they couldn't post? And given Jeb's penchant for trying to get things the way he wants them, I mean it's understandable - I hope - why I wouldn't believe him and go on giving the warnings. It was only when Zok told me that, in fact, it [I]was the case that I stopped giving warnings.


I find myself wondering if Jeb didn't realize that his days might be numbered as a Mod and decided to cause me, AM and MLoR as much grief has he can. It's because that's what Fullcircle did that makes me wonder this. And I wonder how I can get some people so worked up over internet business - be it serious or not?

Oh well, for all of it's disjointedness, this is my input to the whole thing.


*: Of which I was given a copy of the logs from the other room by someone who said I probably don't know them, but thought it only fair that I saw them.

[this is probably no longer moot but I meant to post it last night]

I know Zok asked for our opinions but Zok is a nice guy.
its real simple when you break it down.






acidmelt can be a grade 'A' cunt and vindictive arsehole when he wants (acid, thats a compliment btw).


He doesn't suffer fools, isn't easily impressed and has a flash point lower than gasoline vapour.


BUT


To my certain knowledge he always warns first. Unlike Jeff (think sambob!).


He's very fair and will often give people second or even third chances. Zok has told us that he was prepared to listen to him on several occaisons and not ban.



You all know thats the gospel truth of it , we don't need to know the ins and outs of what happened (*edit, even if we do now know them)

Given acidmelt and Zok's clarifications, I agree that it was completely justified. I just wanted to know everything; sure, we didn't need to, but it's nice to be in the loop and it helps us be confident in our admins' decisions.

Meta, your modding's been pretty much identical to how I'd mod lately, I've noticed you've relaxed on game threads and the like. Maybe my occasional civil disagreements had an impact :p

Money Money Money could use a new moderator, since jeb isn't there anymore.

xenosss is inactive since 5/19.
Viz only posts once a month or so.

The forum seems to lack moderation, an example can be seen here:

https://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2048322

I think toraton would be a good fit.

He would be good!. Could he not also take Jebs old positions in his forum? Network insecurities?

I don't want to completely replace Jeb with Tor - that'd look kinda funny (Plus, Tor would then have 4-5 forums to watch over). I also doubt that Tor would want to moderate NIS since it's more "plz tel me how 2 hak" than it is actual network insecurity discussion. I talked to him in the past about MMM and it seemed like something he really wanted to do. If he still does, I've got no problem with adding him there.

I don't really want to mod NiS. oddballz does a fine job of that and the forum gets too many threads like you mentioned. If you've got no problem adding me to MMM, I'd like to mod it. As I said before, xenosss can be removed too.

well good, im glad we got that just about all cleared up and whatnot. you guys are great, big hugs and kisses.

By the way, Jeb hax'd the #mods channel and autobanned everyone.

I guess that explains why I couldn't access it, man I was in defence of that guy until he started acting like such a brat.

I'm pretty sure Jeb didn't hack anything (because I can access the channel just fine).

You guys probably forgot to identify with nickserv properly.

I don't know about #mods - I must have missed that.

But I do think he is..well I don't know what. Just taking it all way too seriously with veiled threats and shit [reminding me several times what forum he modded and that he was mod there for good reason. Which I took as a sorta threat to hax my computer. But since I usually reformat my HD and reinstall everything every 6 months or so because I fuck something up, it ain't much of a threat].

But he was saying last night that he doesn't need to follow rules and such [see topic in #mods for a quote].

He was also posting a link to a copy of a thread from M&A and said that it was only the first of many to be posted. This was after Cosmo joined and was kicked banned a multitude of times.

I mean, I don't know that posting the threads is going to reveal any great secrets or such since nothing has been really said in M&A. But it's the motivation behind it all. Like he has a personal ax to grind with many of us.

I think I've lost any shred of respect I had for him - and up to a few weeks ago I did have a lot of respect for him despite our differences.