Vorsicht! Long post! If you do not have time to read this now, don't. But at some point come back and read it all the way through. There are many things in here that concern everyone. To aid you, I organized my post into bullet points and divided it into the following sections: Upper administration (Jeff), Lower administration (moderators), and What changes can be made (or something like that).


So I make lists. It's how I get things done and it's how I organize my work. While on vacation I compiled a list of things that were annoying me on the forums. I am going to try and be as blunt and honest about everything as possible because I don't want there to be any misunderstandings on how I feel. I am speaking on the behalf of members and moderators who've emailed me in the past about many of the issues to follow.

I do NOT want to make it seem like I'm trying to overthrow anyone or kick anyone out. I'm not out to get or attack anyone. I'm just somewhat disappointed with how things have turned out lately and I feel that the only way to get things back the way they were is to be entirely honest about how I feel. Because I did not want to leave anything out of this list, I emailed my feelings to a few moderators ahead of time since they had previously come to me about many of these issues - my goal in that was NOT to leave others out of this. Anyway, here goes:

Upper administration:

Sorry to pick on you Jeff...


As of lately it seems that anyone can request to be moderator of anything (in the admin forum) and Jeff will approve. I don't think that we should just add mods whenever someone asks and let them stay indefinitely. We might as well just make everyone a mod of everything if all they have to do is ask. Currently we have 89 moderators, some of whom are moderating up to 4 forums.

Usually when I've added mods in the past I at least make sure the addition is OK with the current mods of that forum. Then I decide whether the addition of new mods is actually necessary. Currently there seems to be little to no screening process outside of the complaints and faint suggestions that the current moderators put forth (if they can get their words in before the person is made a mod).

Jeff adds unwanted forums arbitrarily without acknowledging the wanted ones (it was more than a month after cellular mods - which wasn't requested - was added that Hello World finally appeared). I don't have a problem with new forums at all, I actually think it's a pretty good idea sometimes. But such changes are usually made without asking the current moderators whether they think it would work much less telling them that the changes are going to be made.

Jeff isn't around enough to make the wanted and needed changes to the BBS and hasn't given anyone else access to make such changes (adding and removing moderators and occasionally adding or removing forums). I've researched the issue on vbul and it is actually pretty easy to make new admin groups that have limited permissions - It is not necessary to grant someone full administrative privileges in order for them to perform the said functions. The permissions that would be especially useful would be adding and removing moderators and forums. In fact, there are a number of threads in this forum right now that are asking for moderators to be added or removed - some of which have been here a while.

Totse is constipated. We always say, "oh, well we can always undo the changes" when we add new forums or mods. Unfortunately, nobody ever wants to remove them when the time comes. People whine and complain about undoing the said changes because they A) don't want to be demodded, B) Don't want to see their friends demodded, or C) don't want to get rid of their forum (because it will result in them being demodded). People come to rely on the changes. Eventually we end up with too many mods to keep track of and too lots of low traffic forums. We have a total of 89 moderators (if I counted correctly) which is 1 moderator for every 400 users (about). Some forums have too many moderators. Spurious Generalities and Games People Play both have an inordinate amount of moderators - SG might actually need that many, but that's debatable elsewhere.

Acidmelt and I have been almost single handedly running the forums for the past few years (outside of major technical issues which Jeff usually fixes). I have been posting constantly for the last seven years. Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of threads I've seen Jeff make outside of NOTT and M&A. I know a person's posting record has little to do with how much they visit the forum and how much they care about it, but over the last few years (especially before the vbul upgrade) I've gotten a remarkable number of emails asking whether or not Jeff even knows totse still exists. Sometimes I don't know whether I should be telling people yes or no.

On that note: Jeff, I'm not complaining, I'm requesting - My request is that you acknowledge the massive amount of time, care, and dedication that Acidmelt and I both share for his forum by including us in more decisions and allowing us to make our own as well. I know you're probably got a very busy life outside of totse but we don't. If you let us, I am more than sure we can run things smoothly.

Archives need to be approved, edited, deleted, or denied by more than one person. A long time ago JC recruited me to find a list of moderators and active posters who would be good for this sort of thing. I found about a half dozen or so. Since then, JC has disappeared and the list became outdated. I'm sure that we could find more than triple that if we were to count heads again today.

Lower administration:


Mods are over-moderating (I know, I complain about this all the time, but...) - I don't know whether people are power hungry or whether they just like to break the rules, but I've seen plenty of moderators edit posts (that didn't need to be edited), close threads, and threaten users simply to make a statement. That statement is: I'm the moderator, listen to me or I'll put you in your place. - That's not how you moderate. A moderator is not special or more significant than anyone else on the forum. The only reason we have moderators is because we feel they know the most about the subject matter and what does and doesn't fit into the forum. Because they have that knowledge and experience, they have the capability to make changes when needed. They are a poster first and a moderator second. I know sambob already posted about this, but I figured I'd say it here too since it was bothering both of us.

Nobody's been getting the "New moderator talk" because there have been so many moderator additions in the last few months. I've seen people asking questions as simple as "How do I know when to close a thread in my forum?", "Should I move this to another forum?", and "where is the close thread button?" Which tells me a few things: A) Nobody told them how to do their job, B) they don't post in the forum enough to know what does and what does not fly (the latter of which raises the question: why are they a moderator?). I started writing a guide to supplement Wintermute's moderating guide before I went on vacation. I'll post that as soon as I'm done, but in the mean time people need to stop worrying about doing a bad job and just do it. Don't be afraid to ask questions either. If you don't know, I'm sure someone else here does. On a lighter note: People seem to be getting much better about this. No longer as big of an issue.

Some moderators are moderating way too many sections. Some are moderating up to 4 different forums on the site (high traffic forums, at that). Frankly, I'm just not convinced that anyone is fit to handle that much work. Even if you do have the time for it, it is quite easy to burn out on the content. After moderating the same forum for a few months, it's a lot harder to have that same touch that you did when you first started. You post less, visit the forum less, and when you do visit it's only to make everyone remember that you're still around - usually by doing a lot of moderation all at once. I've seen it happen to a LOT of people (Snoopy said I could use him as an example of this). I'm not saying that it happens to everyone, but I would rather see a person moderate 2 forums really well than 4 forums shittily.

A lot of moderators are suggesting themselves or others for moderating forums that they rarely post in. Yes, they often times know a lot about the forum and it's often a good addition, but as I said earlier in this list: One must be a poster before they are a moderator. You can't start moderating a forum after never having posted there (or only posted rarely) and expect instant respect from the posters there.

There's a lot of bickering, flaming, and general disrespect occuring in this forum (Mods and Admins). I honestly don't care if people hate eachother (or me), just as long as we can all work together. I don't really mind if people dislike each or don't get along very well, but when they tangent in the middle of another thread about something else in order to do it, I think it's out of line. It seems that after a certain point, every thread turns into: A) some sort of argument, B) spam (no, not ads, just useless and irrelevant posting). I'm not really sure whether this is even worthy of complaining about, but someone raised the point that nobody would allow regular posters to do that in their forums, so why should mods be allowed to do it to each other in M&A? Thread hijacking happens in M&A more than anywhere else on totse and it always ends up in an argument while everyone ignores the initial concern of the thread.

Things that can be done immediately to help correct some of the problems above:


Some forums simply have too many moderators. Spurious and Games People Play especially. There is also a slew of posts in M&A requesting moderator changes (people quitting, mostly).

We need to have a more thorough process for assigning moderators to forums. We must decide whether these forums need that many moderators as well as whether the moderator is qualified for the forum. Currently there is no process for that, it seems. As one of the other moderators mentioned to me: "I could moderate any forum I wanted, all I have to do is ask in M&A and BAM! It's done regardless of whether I post there or know anything about it."

When new moderators ARE added, the person who suggested adding them should give them a rundown of how things on that forum work, when to close/move posts, and most importantly: ask questions! I also suggest that we post an official moderation guide in this forum or use Wintermute's.

Changes that should be considered for the future:


Since Jeff is not able to be at totse 24/7, the forum might benefit from having someone who is around more often to do things like add and remove moderators and forums when necessary.

A team or system should be set up for editing incoming articles and managing old ones. I don't know whether this would require new software or what, but I think it is worth investigating.

(more in following post - character limit cut me off)

Bottom line:

I guess if I were to sum up my feelings, I'd say that I feel frustrated. As a super moderator and former administrator, I find it hard to sit and watch the forum become chaotic as totse becomes more constipated with untrained or bad mods, empty forums, and a general lack of attention. I think my feelings and others' are well supported by our history at the website.

Like I said, if you think I'm targeting you or if you think that any of these points are about you, you're probably wrong. None of these problems lie in the hands of a single person - we're all guilty to some extent. I just really don't want to see totse become bogged down like this.

If anyone else has something to say or add to my list, please do. Try to keep the list on the topic of how the forums as a whole are run. Individual forum issues can go elsewhere. Also if you have any criticism of me and how I run things, please address it here.

I really agree that people need to be posters first. This means that you know about the subject in the forum, and you will know how to moderate it. This will cut down on the myriad of 'this is how you mod!' or 'this is the best way to be a moderator!' threads.

The only thing I'd like to say is that there is an aura of arrogance surrounding some of the mods. Those of us that are new may avoid to asking questions or seeking advice because some mods are very quick to smash our ideas and suggestions. It can feel very much like a high school clique at times, which is the antithesis of what I thought &totse was about.

I said this in a previous thread... Loads of good would be done if everyone stopped worrying about how to be a moderator, and started wondering how to be a better poster to aid the forum.

Zok, this may seem strange coming from me (as I'm one of the 'offenders' in this regard) but personally I would welcome the super-mods being given the permissions necessary to mod/demod and all requests to such being routed through them first as they have the day to day knowledge of the boards.

Although to be perfectly frank I don't understand why Jeff doesn't simply make you/them full blown admins. I haven't suggested that before because I know that you're fairly modest and not power mad. If he doesn't feel he can trust you after so many years then there is something wrong.

As to the bickering on this forum, I don't necessarily see that as bad thing. Sure sometimes there's some disrespect but we're all big boys and girls. And it is useful to hammer differences of opinion even if we do sometimes sink to unedifying levels (and I'm as prone as anyone else to climb down into the sandbox of childishness-which is partly what makes totse so fun). A good case in point is the thread about Harry Potter. There was a serious issue involved. It was discussed, with some 'venom' and it was resolved, which I think is the real function of having a mod's forum.

I don't know if the issue with the soft delete would be something that should go here, or not. So this is all I'll say about it.

I'm willing to go over text files if you're looking for people. I think I could do the drug related ones at least.

Oh and Zok, Olle Kumpel, I hate to say it but some of the problems on this board are your fault.

I know you don't like to push yourself forward, nor overstep any boundaries nor impose your views but most of us mods look up to you and expect you to lead a bit now we have this forum for debate.

A decisive "jack you're talking crap" type answer from you would save a lot of problems a lot of the time.

[highlight]
[LIST]
Some forums simply have too many moderators. Spurious and Games People Play especially. There is also a slew of posts in M&A requesting moderator changes (people quitting, mostly).

I agree with the rest of your post mainly, allthough I think you're making a huge deal out of stuff that's not really a huge deal.

But the above sentence proves that you're not around as much as you say.

I've blatantly and openly requested to NOT be a mod of SG anymore. Kai is there because Jeff didnt want to de-mod him totally so Kai could still read his suggestion thread. So that's 2 mods down.

As for GPP. I'm temporary and looking after it till Xip gets back from BT, and then I'll be promptly removed:(. (or atleast, removed when Jeff gets round to it) but it would be rude and disrespectfull to remove Xip from the forum considering what a fucking awesome mod he is.

As for The Atomisier? MIA or lack of interest I dont know.
Toraton I requested to help as at the time I was utterly alone in a forum of people who were rapidly turning against me due to my lack of balls.
I've no idea who added Rabb. Allthough he's not an unwelcome addition, considering his skills.


Really, I dont get what the big deal is about having many mods in a forum.
In a way, it stops over-moderating, something I saw you made a point about, because if you overmoderate, chances are you're going to get a rather stern Email from your Co-mods!



Allthough I'd be annoyed to find some random person had been modded in a forum of mine for no apparent reason.




Sometimes It's better to have a few more mods. There's some things in GPP I have no fucking clue about, and same goes for some other mods, but then there will be one mod who will know *everything* about that topic, and so on.


If you can learn to support your mods and not cricicise them in public then things will go well.
Posting shit like "well I've no idea why that was closed but I'll sort it out"
is disrespectfull and undermines the other moderator.
The regulars will feel that all they need to do is bitch about a closed thread and another mod will come along and re-open it. Which is embarassing to the other mod.
Even if they were in the wrong, you fucking Email them about the subject, dont criticise their modding on forum. That's just rude, and it's damaging to the mod, especially if they're relatively new.

Sometimes It's better to have a few more mods. There's some things in GPP I have no fucking clue about, and same goes for some other mods, but then there will be one mod who will know *everything* about that topic, and so on..

You don't necessarily need moderators to have every aspect of every possible question in their forum covered; there'll always be a regular who can answer questions on a topic if the mods can't, and that won't reflect badly on them. I do think that lots of mods in a forum does lead to over-moderation; like you said, mods tend not to challenge or reverse the decisions of other mods out of courtesy, but with so many people watching over the forums there's going to be a lot that gets moderated, because everybody has slightly different opinions of what should be locked or deleted or edited or whatever.

Zok, I'm glad you posted this. Previously I'd agree with what jack said above about you taking a back seat and being hesitant to voice your concerns, but you put them across here and I think you did so excellently, those things needed to be said. If it's all taken on board it'll do a lot of good, there are a few things on there I know apply to me and it's good to have them pointed out.

Zok, youve identified the problems.

The problem is that weve had how many versions of this thrown up to Jeff and that quietly fade away?

Im thinking that stagnation is the totse way.

I've said it before. Totse has too many mods and too many forums.

Trimming needs to be done, and some people's feelings are bound to be hurt.

I

Sometimes It's better to have a few more mods. There's some things in GPP I have no fucking clue about, and same goes for some other mods, but then there will be one mod who will know *everything* about that topic, and so on.




I see don't see then need for 7 mods in one forum that sized, the amount of mixed messages the mods can spend can be confusing (and annoying).

There were a series of 4 or 5 threads closed where two GPP mods had posted and not complained about the content, then it was closed a day later by another mod; it's very confusing to the posters.

Ok, since I agree with Zok that totse is getting too constipated and cluttered, I thought I would throw my suggestions out there and see what everyone thinks about them.

Firstly, I think News of the World should be combined with IFIOTW. Most of the news stories being posted there would've been posted in IFIOTW anyways before the forum was made. I originally thought it would be a good idea, but it's just a place where people post shit from Digg and stuff that definitely would've been posted in IFIOTW.

Secondly, I think Conspiracy and Science of the Damned should be recombined. I know the regulars in that forum are against it, but I see no point in taking one medium traffic forum and splitting into two low traffic forums. They were together for years, so I don't see why it wouldn't work again.

Thirdly, Headshrinkers should fall under Humanities. Humanities deals with social sciences, and it wouldn't be a stretch at all to include psychology in the Humanities description.

There is no point to the Clean Tech or One the Campaign Trails forums in my opinion. Both can easily fit under Green Planet and Politics: LRC easily.

The great Outdoors and Noah's Ark could easily be combined into one general nature/animal appreciation forum, or you could combine The Great Outdoors with Green Planet or Traveler's Travails.

I'm not a technology guy, so I can't comment on why there needs to be different forums for Macs and PC, but it does seem a little excessive to me. Why not have a computer science forum, and hardware forum, and then NSH? Go from five forums to three.

I think Set the Style and Art and Design could be merged. Fashion could definitely be considered an art.

I also agree with Zok that there are too many mods. My suggestion for this is to go through each forum, decide how many mods are actually needed for that forum, then decide which mod stays by who has the most posts in that forum. There can be extenuating circumstances for people like Xip and what not.

I also think there should be a maximum of four mods per forum. GPP is at best a three mod forum. There is no way that forum needs 7, or even 4 moderators for it to function.

Very glad it finally got posted.

Big thumbs up.

I have nothing to add and don't see the need to voice my agreement, although my agreement is there. This is your thread and your initiative.

I simply hope that Jeff responds both well and soon.

(fashion and art are very different things, they would not combine well)

I concur 100%.

On the note of the articles, I'd be more than willing to knock up a bespoke system for Totse in my spare time.

It'd be good to allow multiple people to manage the system, and allow for online submissions.

Overall, I think a few people are overreacting a little. The forum isn't perfect, but it isn't in chaos either.

In the relatively short time I've been a mod, I've also found that less can be more with moderating. You don't need to do stuff for the sake of it.

I'm tending to agree with Zok that perhaps we need someone else with the ability to administrate users.

I think sometimes it's better to involve existing mods more than select new mods. A lot of the time, once you've got to a computer and got on Totse, it's as easy to mod two forums, at least small ones, as it is one. And there is merit in having experienced people take on forums, particularly new ones which attract more trouble. New forum + new mod can sometimes be asking for it.

Conversely, however, Zok is right about people often having too many high traffic forums. It's about balance.

I know Jeff likes to mod by driveby, but I think sometimes it might be worth discussing it with the current mods, as well as seeing if any existing mods who don't have much of a workload are suitable.

Also, this board needs more happiness. :)

-deus-

I also agree. And have nothing else to say besides that. :)

Except that I like napoleon's idea of combining low traffic forums. Less clutter is good.

And deus-redux is right... we need more happy. :)

Good points but I personally don't want to see anything combined with Green Planet besides 'Clean Tech' which I requested become a child forum before, that or get rid of it completely.

Oh and I too have wanted (where possible) something like a vote system where moderators can view submitted textfiles and give their approval or not.

Text files, no matter how retarded, comes under the 1st amendment. While it would be nice to pick and choose which go up it goes against Totse's principles.

No. If that was the case wouldn't you think as soon as they were submitted they'd be in the textfiles section? They get screened, maybe not as well as they should but blatant nonsense and I'd assume things like referral links and shit get filtered out.

Personally I don't see this. The first ammendment doesn't protect peoples right to POST TEXT FILES ON TOTSE*.

I'm sorry but text files just aren't a free speech issue, come on people!

There are GOOD reasons why text files (Certain ones at least) should be rejected. For example, the ones that tell how to make bombs - some of them I've been told, are misleading, and could lead to people getting seriously hurt (I mean UNintentionally). Same with drug related text files, and many others I'm sure.

Also since when was totse motto "We have more text files than everyone else?". Totse's motto is Read Know Do. Personally I think having GOOD text files is more in line with Read Know Do than just haing any old text file that some 9 year old kid wants to add who doesnt really know anything about the subject he's writing.

Now I think he should have a write to POST his stupid ideas, but the TEXT files represent totse.

Thats just what I think though (obviously), my two cents.

*I'm not shouting at you I'm just capitalising it so you read it back to yourself.

Jeff disagrees.

Q: There is an inaccuracy on the web page with the URL: [url shown here]. Please correct it at once.

A: Wow! Someone actually included a URL! Thanks! We'll get right on it.

Actually, we probably won't fix it. Part of the standard disclaimer for the pages on this site is "We do not guarantee that any of the information contained on this system is correct, workable, or factual."

You see, if you'd actually read the this entire FAQ, you'd know that the vast majority of the articles that appear on this site were contributed by the readers of the site. Most of the people who contribute articles are highly intelligent, certifiable genuises who know exactly what they're talking about and can explain their vast knowledge in an easy-to-understand way.

Then again, some of the readers of this site are certifiable lunatics who couldn't use a screwdriver without injuring themselves. Although the information they provide may be wildly inaccurate, we're not going to try to censor their insane ramblings. Instead, we provide the data they provide "as is", and leave it for the reader to sort out truth from fiction. After all, the only way you're ever going to learn to use that brain of yours is if you give it some exercise.

Lastly, if you disagree with the facts or the viewpoint of one of the articles written here, submit an article (http://www.totse.com/community/../bin/submit/submit.cgi) of your own! The great thing about free speech is that it cuts both ways -- you're free to speak as well.

From the FAQ. (http://www.totse.com/en/_faq/totse_faq.html)

The way I've been thinking about it, the proposed text-file editing is purely for spelling, grammar and layout.

Q: Can I help you edit and publish submissions? I can read, write and spell in English, I know what a paragraph is and I know basic HTML.

A: Send us some Feedback (http://www.totse.com/community/../en/_feedback/feedback.html) and select "I want to help edit your web pages" from the pulldown. Right now the editing system has some bugs and isn't ready for a wider audience, but it will be soon. When it's ready, we'll contact you.

Again from the FAQ.

From the things Jeff has said or written about the original ethos of the site, it's meant to be a place where anybody can put their ideas across and share their knowledge and information, not a place where their input can be approved or denied based on grounds of 'worthiness'. If there's any screening process I'm sure it's just there to weed out advertisments or pure spam.

Art does soooo not go with fashion. That would be scary.


I dont see why the forums should be pruned? There are good forums here, and it's not like any forum is desolate and unused. People post in them, people appreciate them, therefore they should stay. Atleast, that's what I feel.


But sambob has been saying alot of stuff that Zok said for weeks, so none of it's really new.

I like napoleon's idea of combining low traffic forums. Less clutter is good.


x 3 Agreed.

There'd be a lot of pissing and moaning from the regulars regarding a merge of SOTD & Conspiracies since it was just recently split up (due in part, I guess, from user requests?) - but neither of them have very high traffic and the spam is certainly controllable.

ArmsMerchant would probably be opposed to this, and I can certainly understand his viewpoint on how conspiracies shouldn't be mixed in with all the paranormal shaman business in SoTD - but with (3) of us moderating it and all of us having a pretty good overlap schedule, it could be managed easily.

I've never had the pleasure of speaking to Nemesis and honestly have never seen him/her post as of late. Are they still around?

x 3 Agreed.

There'd be a lot of pissing and moaning from the regulars regarding a merge of SOTD & Conspiracies since it was just recently split up (due in part, I guess, from user requests?) - but neither of them have very high traffic and the spam is certainly controllable.

ArmsMerchant would probably be opposed to this, and I can certainly understand his viewpoint on how conspiracies shouldn't be mixed in with all the paranormal shaman business in SoTD - but with (3) of us moderating it and all of us having a pretty good overlap schedule, it could be managed easily.

I've never had the pleasure of speaking to Nemesis and honestly have never seen him/her post as of late. Are they still around?

She made a thread saying that she was moving.

Also, I noticed something, does she use 2 accounts? There's Nemesis and Nemisis that are both mods.

x 3 Agreed.

There'd be a lot of pissing and moaning from the regulars regarding a merge of SOTD & Conspiracies since it was just recently split up (due in part, I guess, from user requests?) - but neither of them have very high traffic and the spam is certainly controllable.

ArmsMerchant would probably be opposed to this, and I can certainly understand his viewpoint on how conspiracies shouldn't be mixed in with all the paranormal shaman business in SoTD - but with (3) of us moderating it and all of us having a pretty good overlap schedule, it could be managed easily.

Practically speaking, I agree with you.

But with regards to forum content, I think it was a horrific decision to merge them in the first place. As a consequence, PD consisted of one flamewar after another in part because people didn't like sharing the same fleapit. Have you noticed how relatively calm SotD and Conspiracy are compared to PD? It's like an epileptic who's had clinically successful corrective brain surgery.

I've never had the pleasure of speaking to Nemesis and honestly have never seen him/her post as of late. Are they still around?

I've also been told that Nemisis has recently had a child, consequently actively modding Totse isn't an option.

The great Outdoors and Noah's Ark could easily be combined into one general nature/animal appreciation forum, or you could combine The Great Outdoors with Green Planet or Traveler's Travails.



As a mod of Noah's Ark, I heavily agree with this one and am in great support for this. I would definitely like to see this suggestion put into action.

I see don't see then need for 7 mods in one forum that sized, the amount of mixed messages the mods can spend can be confusing (and annoying).

There were a series of 4 or 5 threads closed where two GPP mods had posted and not complained about the content, then it was closed a day later by another mod; it's very confusing to the posters.

To be honest, I saw one such example of this. The moderator in question was openly supporting something that we in GPP tend to frown upon. I was mildly shocked because this person should know better, but I decided maybe he knew best and I left it alone, not wanting to get involved in that shit. I checked it the next day; bek had closed it, obviously not pleased it was still around. I should have closed it, but I just wasn't sure how to handle it at the time.

As for the idea of trimming back the amount of mods and forums, I agree. I know there are alot of us modding GPP but a few of them aren't around at all. Personally I'm quite happy being able to help out when I can, but who stays and who goes isn't up to me and I understand what's gotta be done's gotta be done. I've been a GPP regular for many years now (holy shit, 6 already), and all too often I've seen inadequate moderating during one period, then all of a sudden it's turned into a fascist dictatorship. Then back again. I do think GPP deserves some quality moderators, and it's got a few now, but half of me agrees with Bek, on the grounds that I really don't want to see it under-moderated.. again.

On a different topic, it's almost surreal posting in this forum.. for years I never got on with some of the more reputable moderators and even got involved in that ridiculous TRMF era.. and now it's like rlpinca and myself are complete enemies, much like I used to be with, say, Snoopy. Even Sambob, though he's a Dream Theater fan so I've got nothing against him anymore. But, it's amazing how a change of circumstance, and a complete re-arrangement of ones lifestyle can give you perspective. Well, give me perspective. I may be broke and my job might be shit, but I've never been so content with myself, and go so long without really worrying about something. Whether I'm a moderator or not, I'm glad that I'm still a part of totse, especially during this time of personal growth, and though many of you probably couldn't give a shit about how well I'm doing, at least I'm not starting any huge, ridiculous flame wars over minor, petty issues with any moderators, just because I've had a bad day. I'm so glad I'm not a teenager anymore.

Even Sambob, though he's a Dream Theater fan so I've got nothing against him anymore.

I thought we were buds now.

Oh, well thats what you said I guess never mind.

Man I've been posting about Dream Theater for years and years, my frst thread in R&R was probably about Dream Theater (Actually I really thin it was, about Six Degrees..). Therefore WEAK argument for liking me all of the sudden!

I've been a GPP regular for many years now (holy shit, 6 already), and all too often I've seen inadequate moderating during one period, then all of a sudden it's turned into a fascist dictatorship. Then back again. I do think GPP deserves some quality moderators, and it's got a few now, but half of me agrees with Bek, on the grounds that I really don't want to see it under-moderated.. again.



I agree with what you've said; I think there's a fine line between overmodding and undermodding as well.

But some of the mods there haven't posted in GPP since 2006! I just don't understand why they would be kept around if they have been inactive for nearly 7 months.

Township Rebellion, please email me or contact me on msn or aim.

toraton@gmail.com (this is my msn and my active email)
toraton (aim)

Ich stimme mit Zok zu! His post sums up my feelings nicely.

*signs petition*

-=Sephiroth=-

Better would be 'stimme dem Zok zu' or simply 'stimme Zok zu'.

'stimme mit' tends to be used to mean 'vote with' rather than 'agree with'

I thought we were buds now.

Oh, well thats what you said I guess never mind.

Man I've been posting about Dream Theater for years and years, my frst thread in R&R was probably about Dream Theater (Actually I really thin it was, about Six Degrees..). Therefore WEAK argument for liking me all of the sudden!

lol. I know you've liked DT forever, I was just pointing out how times have changed and that we don't hate each others guts anymore.

Don't be so sure!

Or something like that.

I'd be willing to have Headshrinkers subsumed under Humanities--I know quite a lot about neuroscience, and I think I'd be competent to moderate the combined forum.


Entheogenic

I may as well post this here...a regular called 'wraith' (I think) gave me two reps one after another like a double post in a forum. Considering I get the "you have to spread some more rep around before giving to this user again" messages I found this to be a little strange.

Don't be so sure!

I'm not.

Though, you still occasionally act like a narcissistic dick.

I agree with the majority of the OP.

I'm not.

Though, you still occasionally act like a narcissistic dick.

Do you even know what narcissistic means?

Of course I know what narcissistic means! Of all people, I should know what narcissistic means! Oh, you weren't talking to me? I just assumed.

:p


Entheogenic

Do you even know what narcissistic means?

Yes I do. That's why I used the word, silly.

Hahaha....:)

Sorry for the bump, but it appears Jeff's around and I'd like him to read this thread as well. It'll have a better chance at the top of the thread index.

[highlight]I've researched the issue on vbul and it is actually pretty easy to make new admin groups that have limited permissions - It is not necessary to grant someone full administrative privileges in order for them to perform the said functions. The permissions that would be especially useful would be adding and removing moderators and forums

There is no way that I'm aware of in vB where you can create a "role" that can edit the forums and add/remove admins without also giving that role full admin powers over everything.

There's a single on/off switch on the "role" settings for "Can Access Control Panel (is Administrator)". It's not fine-grained access, it's all-or-nothing access.

If you can point me to a screen that says "give this role forum-editing powers" I'd happily set that up and let you and Acidmelt mod and de-mod folks to your heart's content. It was always my intention to give you that ability, I just don't see a way to do it.

Although to be perfectly frank I don't understand why Jeff doesn't simply make you/them full blown admins. I haven't suggested that before because I know that you're fairly modest and not power mad. If he doesn't feel he can trust you after so many years then there is something wrong.

Because you can actually put the board into a non-working state fairly easily as an admin, and the board is unstable enough as it is. The next time it goes haywire I don't want to have to add "did the other admins change something that is causing this fuck-up?" to my list of debugging steps. Too much aggravation -- not worth it.

Because you can actually put the board into a non-working state fairly easily as an admin, and the board is unstable enough as it is. The next time it goes haywire I don't want to have to add "did the other admins change something that is causing this fuck-up?" to my list of debugging steps. Too much aggravation -- not worth it.

Thanks for the answer.

There is no way that I'm aware of in vB where you can create a "role" that can edit the forums and add/remove admins without also giving that role full admin powers over everything.

There's a single on/off switch on the "role" settings for "Can Access Control Panel (is Administrator)". It's not fine-grained access, it's all-or-nothing access.

If you can point me to a screen that says "give this role forum-editing powers" I'd happily set that up and let you and Acidmelt mod and de-mod folks to your heart's content. It was always my intention to give you that ability, I just don't see a way to do it.

The user must first be an administrator. After they are, you can edit what administrative settings they are allowed to edit.

In the Admin panel:

User Groups->Administrator Permissions->(username)

Being able to administer Forums, Users, and Threads are all that I think would be needed. The rest as you said, are settings that we don't need to have access to. It's not the strictest of control, but it's better than what UBB left us with. The question marks next to each of the fields explains what the option would allow the admin to do. I had to test it out on a dummy account on my bbs to see how it actually worked.

actually zok is correct, i have recently done exactly what he stated on my own test vbul install and seems to be working just as stated.

User Groups->Administrator Permissions->(username)


Thanks!

The really STUPID thing is, I'd actually DID this when I was setting the system up, and I tested it on another account, planned to use it for your permissions, then I forgot all about it.

I must be getting senile...

...I must be getting senile...

I can't wait for senility. I think it'll be a smooth transition. Thanks for the changes, Jeff!

my account doesnt seem to have changed????

I hadn't forgotten about you. The phone rang, then other things interrupted.

Just set you up too.

thanks buddy, much appreciated!

Just reading through the forums, I'd like to propose another potential change. I think Reinvent Yourself and Set the Style could be merged into one "self image"-type forum. There have been image questions asked in RY since I've been a member, and there have even been a bunch of fashion questions there too. That seems like a logical merger IMO if Jeff does want to cut down on forums and moderators.

I like the fashion forum. It's quite a separate thing from most of the topics within RY. It's not asking how to work out, lose weight, or improve your skin.

Of course it isn't, but since forever fashion and "image" questions have been asked in RY. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to have a "self image" forum covering topics from working out, hygiene, and fashion.

I think that, along with a few other mergers could really help some forums thrive better simply due to more traffic.

I like them apart. Why do you think we need to start merging forums? Why does it matter if there are low traffic forums?

I like them apart. Why do you think we need to start merging forums? Why does it matter if there are low traffic forums?

I think it would make totse better and it would make the forums better if there was as much traffic as possible, and it would also make it easier to go to the forums if there wasn't as much clutter. I'm basically just repeating what Zok and acidmelt have said before me.

I like them apart. Why do you think we need to start merging forums? Why does it matter if there are low traffic forums?

Agreed.

I think it would make totse better and it would make the forums better if there was as much traffic as possible, and it would also make it easier to go to the forums if there wasn't as much clutter. I'm basically just repeating what Zok and acidmelt have said before me.

I think it would take away from STS. I can imagine talk of the fashion as an industry would cease aswell.

Why? If you and the others that discuss the fashion industry still post, then why would the discussion stop? I just think some mergers would help the forums.

Why would merging the two take away from either forum if both have dedicated posters? It also isn't like there's a lot to take away from STS anyways. I think the only outcome would be positive.

Because you can talk about the fashion industry without it relating to 'Self Image'.

Bad/Unneeded merge in my opinion.

Of course you can, but that doesn't mean you have to.

I know people are protective of their forums, but I still don't see how this merger would hurt either of the forums.

Because maybe you don't understand the fashion industry? How the 2 are completely different subjects? But because both relate to the body doesn't mean they need to be merged. You could say the same for anime art and design and moving pictures - they're all forms of artistic expression, anime deals with art (if you can call it that ha) and moving images - why should we have a forum for a certain branch/culture of art?
RY has nothing to do with fashion IMO - oh and I'd love to see the regulars of RY talking about up and coming designers, fashion shows, garment construction, pattern making, sewing, make-up etc.


But more of the point - I don't see the problem of there being low traffic forums! Who cares? As long as the threads are on topic and the forum is ticking over slowly, NC, you of all people should know how low traffic forums run and continue to work - you mod go team! Just because other forums on totse are more popular doesn't make the information in the slower forums any less relevant.
If you're so concerned about the number of forums we have - then why not look at the tech ones? We have so many god damn tech forums, on different operating systems - why aren't they as one? Why aren't you calling for them to be merged as well?

I mean hell, if you're going to pick at 2 forums, you might as well go through the rest that are in the same situation and deem them unnecessary also.

And do we not all remember the uniting of conspiracy and science of the damned? Because that was recieved so wonderfully

Because maybe you don't understand the fashion industry? How the 2 are completely different subjects? But because both relate to the body doesn't mean they need to be merged. You could say the same for anime art and design and moving pictures - they're all forms of artistic expression, anime deals with art (if you can call it that ha) and moving images - why should we have a forum for a certain branch/culture of art?

Of course none of these forums need to be merged. Hell, you could further subdivide the forums because photography is a different medium from painting, but that doesn't mean photography should get its own forum. I'm just suggesting that both forums would be better served by higher traffic(all information specific forums would IMO).

RY has nothing to do with fashion IMO - oh and I'd love to see the regulars of RY talking about up and coming designers, fashion shows, garment construction, pattern making, sewing, make-up etc. Oh come on, let's not make STS more than it is. There are a few threads about high fashion, but most aren't. They're about everyday fashion topics that would just as well fit in a RY style forum, and have been for years.


[But more of the point - I don't see the problem of there being low traffic forums! Who cares? As long as the threads are on topic and the forum is ticking over slowly, NC, you of all people should know how low traffic forums run and continue to work - you mod go team! Just because other forums on totse are more popular doesn't make the information in the slower forums any less relevant.There is no inherent problem with low traffic forums, but that doesn't mean all the low traffic forums wouldn't improve in quality if they had higher traffic. I think STS and RY would be better with higher traffic. I read both forums, though I don't post much in STS, and I think a lot of the questions asked there would be well received and answered by the combined posters of both forums.

If you're so concerned about the number of forums we have - then why not look at the tech ones? We have so many god damn tech forums, on different operating systems - why aren't they as one? Why aren't you calling for them to be merged as well?If you bothered to read my previous posts in this thread(which apparently you didn't), you'd know I did suggest that the Tech forums be combined in some way. Com on Kate, you're better than this.

I mean hell, if you're going to pick at 2 forums, you might as well go through the rest that are in the same situation and deem them unnecessary also.Again, did you read my first post in this thread? I DID go through the forum list and make suggestions asking for other forums to be merged.

Edit: Maybe my memory is wrong, but I recall Conspiracy and SotD being a combined forum(Paranoid Delusions) long before they were separate. I may be wrong on that since I never post in either of those forums.

No, I didn't RE-READ the thread (note that I followed it, and then it died and was bumped) and I'm refering to exactly what I quoted from you on this page, so sorry for not re-reading your LONG post.


But my point still stands that STS and RY should remain apart.

Okay, and my point still stands that both would be improved by being merged.

It isn't like only haute couture and the latest fashions from Paris are discussed in STS. Most are practical fashion questions dealing with "what looks best" or "how should I dress", topics that would fit perfectly well in a self-image type forum.

If people like Wires and Isobutane(the only two people I can remember discussing high fashion in that forum on a serious level) continue to post in RY(and Isobutane already posts in RY), then how would STS be hurt?

Technically those "image" threads don't belong in RY anymore.

Merging TGO with Noah's Ark is like merging Anime and Moving Pictures. It would be a "logical" merger, but what I think you are focusing on is removing mods and forums when they don't need to be removed. TGO and Noah's Ark are two different subjects, the only way they relate is that the animals live in the outdoors and that's it.

Noah's Ark is about taking care of animals, what kind of animal should I get, best way to get rid of unwanted animals, etc. TGO is about hunting, fishing, sailing, gardening, etc. IMO they are two different things. Oh, I'm sure that the NA regulars wouldn't like threads about hunting and killing animals.

Merging TGO and GP is again the "logical" thing to do, but two different things. GP is about environmental issues, toxins in the air, ozone related things, and so on. Again, TGO is more about outdoor activities such as: fishing, hunting, sailing, etc.

Making CL a sub forum of GP would work out, since they really relate. CL is just helping the earth out using technology.

Merging TGO and Traveler's Travails would somewhat be alright with me, since if you want to hunt/fish/sail you will need good advice on which locations are the best.

Traveler's Travails was made for a reason. I know that Jeff isn't just going to add completely useless forums. He made it so that totse would be more organized.

I do agree that there are some forums with way too many mods than it needs. For example; Games People Play, it has 6 mods and 4 of them are active. TheAtomiser already said that he didn't have a problem if he was removed from GPP, so that's down to 5. Xip is training, and he will come back, so no point in removing him. Right now it would be better to just leave Toraton, yoyobek, and rabbhimself there. They are active so there will be no spam. I'm not trying to piss people off, but Township Rebellion is like the 5th wheel, not needed, but nice to have(lol).

Same deal goes with SG. The forum used to have 4 mods and it would run smoothly. I think that now that Zok and acidmelt have the power to move mods that the SG rotation should start up again(just having 4 active mods modding SG).

That wasn't what I took from RY's forum description:

"Self improvement through body modification, diet, physical and mental exercise, body-building, surgery, chemical introduction, life extension, and smart drugs. Medicine, and other body related topics also belong here."

Either way, it's nice to see rational discussion on this topic instead of mods getting pissy and defensive.

*Hits napoleon_complex with Gucci handbag*

And as I've always said, RY is about the being in a physical manner, STS is about the materialistic side of things.

I dont see why merging threads needs to be done.
The people suggesting it, perhaps are professional people thinking like managers and how to reduce things would increase financial efficiency?

The forums have enough mods, and it's not like the moderators get paid to mod, so I dont see how reducing mods and forums would be nescessary at all.

*Hits napoleon_complex with Gucci handbag*

And as I've always said, RY is about the being in a physical manner, STS is about the materialistic side of things.

Of course that's what each forum is about. I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that these two very similar subjects would be best served by the combined population of both forums. More traffic=more posts=more discussion.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Of course that's what each forum is about. I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that these two very similar subjects would be best served by the combined population of both forums. More traffic=more posts=more discussion.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

I do understand you, but I'm finding it hard to get across my point.

I think there needs to be the gap between the two styles of subject, and a merge would blur that gap.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

How would it blur this incredibly small gap?

Would discussing hair/skin care and fashion tips in the same forum really be all that disastrous?

Here are a list of thread from RY's first page:

Need some help on losing fat

Nice Shirt Suggetions

Bored With How I am.

School starting need to look good PICS

What can I do to become more attractive?

something is wrong with my nose

Make me more attractive. (pics)

Really Reinventing Yourself

A more feminine look...for an 18 yr old male

Reinvent me

Monobrow Remedies

Shaving (face)

Reinventing My Face

Does anyone really think these topics would hinder the types of questions being asked in STS? On the front page of STS, I counted two topics dealing with high fashion. The other topics were practical, everyday type questions. I just don't see how a merger would hurt either forum, other than some mods not wanting to lose "their" forum.

Hey,Games contain sex and violence, and movies contain sex and violence, and sex is something humans all do, shall me Merge S&A, GPP, Moving pictures and Humanities?

If you're not going to be serious, then just don't post.

Edit: Maybe my memory is wrong, but I recall Conspiracy and SotD being a combined forum(Paranoid Delusions) long before they were separate. I may be wrong on that since I never post in either of those forums.

And PD was a giant flamepit as a consequence of two very different sets of people having to share the same ill-defined bed.

Like I said, I never posted there, but I do recall them being together before they were split.

I still think they would work together. I know the two groups hate being lumped together, but still.

Either way, I can't imagine there being a clash between RY and STS.

Edit: To be clear, my first post was just throwing out suggestions to start conversations, though some mod here appear too sensitive to have a conversation about anything involving their forum because of some perceived sense of ownership.

That doesn't even make sense.

It could equally be stated that combining them was an appalling decision in the first place, as was perennially claimed within PD right from it's inception.

I personally don't see the benefit of recombining Conspiracy and SotD, beyond the minimalist aesthetics of having one forum instead of two. If there's no correlation in subject matter between two forums, and it has previously been demonstrated that merging them is counter-productive to discussion, then I'm left scratching for something positive to say about a reunification. And with regards to flaming, naming it "Paranoid Delusions" certainly didn't help, as it simply invited ridicule.

I'm not claiming that the same could be said for all your suggestions. I'm only speaking of that with which I am familiar.