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Weapons and Combat This is the forum dedicated to weapons, martial arts, and their related technical, political and social issues. Weapons and Combat is for the safe and responsible use of firearms, knives, fists and other weapons. This forum is about real weapons - Threads about paintball, airsoft, and other sport related combat may posted in Go Team.

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  #1   Add Cboys to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-11, 23:19
Cboys Cboys is offline
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Default A word on bullets.

I'm spending the week housesitting at my Grandparents home, and am very bored. I have mentioned it before- they operate a funeral home, they like to go vacationing, but someone must be able to respond to the phone in case of business.

This was fine with me, as my family was going to the beach this week, and I hate the beach.

However, my Grandfather is woefully inadequately unarmed. Or at least not to the extent I would be, as he is in posession of a minty fresh Model 94 that has never had a round through it. Not a bad specimen either, feels nicer than some of the ones I've seen, although its no pre-64. I loaded it and left none in the chamber just for him. Aren't I the nicest?

But, after being stuck housesitting for so long, a guy gets bored. So I call up a friend, transfer the phone to him, and go do something. Invariably, my "something" ends up with me being in a gun store. Strange how it always does.

But, as we all do from time to time, I ended up listening to a man asking for the ".22 hollowpoints" because he shot an empty soda can with one, and to quote his phrase "it damn near turned inside out" (If you happen to have it on hand, you can find nearly the same phrase in Guns & Ammo's issue with the AR-15 on the cover under "the zen of plinking"... hmm) , but that the others "made a little hole". He also insisted on having some .30-30 "ballistic tips" because, as he showed all who were watching with his hands in a CD-size circle, it makes a hole "this big", but the others don't.

Aside from the fact that using "ballistic tips" in a .30-30 may be setting yourself up for trouble (Anyone ever heard of them chainfiring? I never have, but the story persists), if you're punching holes "this big" with a .30-30 then those deer must be made of glass or something. And, with one sorta-exception, .30-30 ballistic tips don't exist, at least in factory form. I think this guy was just trying to flaunt gun-rag pseudo knowledge.

But, it got me to thinking, and a combination of thinking, TOTSE, having a broadband connection for a little while, and three days of microwave pizzas and Mickey D's , makes me feel compelled to spew forth what I know of bullets.

FACT- Bullet selection can have a severe impact on the performance of your shot, for better or worse.

FACT- There is no magic bullet. Lee Harvey Oswald used the last one.

FACT- If you are shooting 6 MOA, it ain't the bullet.

I am not a super experienced reloader. I do dabble, and I do burn a lot of powder with a lot of bullet types, ranging from the cheapo bulk .224s to AMaxes and SMKs to M855. So- observations.

There seem to be only a handful of bullet types, and they are tailored to a specific use. Some bullets do better in one type of use than others. Granted, any bullet can kill a man/deer/zombie dead, but some make it easier and surer, or with added benefits. The main types I see are "plain" ball, specialized varmint bullets, specialized large game bullets, competition/target bullets, self defensive bullets, and gimmick bullets.

Plain ball is just that- a fairly typical FMJ. As a rule, an FMJ bullet will punch a hole in, and beeline a way to punching its way out. There are exceptions to the rule- many, actually.Typically, these reside in the core construction. The british Mk VII is my favorite example. Although an FMJ type of bullet, where the core is entirely enclosed by the jacket except in the rear, the core is made of 2/3 lead and the front third is aluminum (www.theboxotruth.com has pictures with wooden tips, but I've been sectioning some bullets and unable to find any). The bullet is very stable in flight, but upon hitting something it does the mambo, often tearing itself apart. Considering it's moving a fairly sturdy 174 gr bullet at roughly 2500 fps and a little below, it shows really good, but uncontrolled, expansion (Or rather "tearing"). This is fine and dandy for people in war or for targets, but not preferable on game for obvious reasons.
I have recently read a couple of articles that said that the "yaw" effect attributed to the M67 iteration of the 7.62X39 as making it more effective than the M43 version (the M67 has a small nonexpanding hollowpoint that changes the balance) is pointless and does not increase the potential to wound. Personal experience would say otherwise. I have seen far better target reactivity and on-game effects from the M67 style of projectiles. HMC's gel tests have also shown interesting results in line with my beliefs. While the bullets tend to not expand nor deform much compared to hunting bullets, the increased performance is undeniable.

EXAMPLES: Bulk .224s, Wolf Military Classic FMJ, M2 Ball, Spire Point. My favorite is surplus pulled M855 and M193s.

Varmint bullets are different. As a rule- and this rule is actually followed- varmint bullets have a narrow jacket, and are mostly lead, and they tend to have more "hollow" space. This encourages expansion. Copper is slower to expand, but lead does so readily. The open spaces within enhance the expansion further. Really, you can hardly call it expansion in a good varmint bullet- it is more in line with explosivity. A good hit with a varmint bullet will leave fragments of the bullet behind, and rarely will there be a coherent "bullet".
A popular method of improving even further on the expansion is through the use of polymer tips. These retain a streamlined shape, but upon impact are forced backwards and force the lead to expand. What a good polymer point bullet at a high speed will do to a varmint is a sight to behold. Think "sudden bloody mist".
In lieu of a polymer point, many varmint bullets are hollowpointed. Hollowpoints are inherently more accurate, and given the thin jacket you get both reactivity and accuracy.

EXAMPLES: Hornady VMax, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Sierra Blitzking, Barnes XLC. My favorite is the Hornady Vmax, but I'm starting to like the Blitzking in .204.

Specialized large game bullets seem to split the difference between the two. Their rule seems to be that as the game you are chasing gets bigger, become more like an FMJ and as the game gets smaller, more like a varmint bullet. This is because an FMJ, all other things being equal, will penetrate better than a bullet prone to expansion. However, overpenetration is bad and does not do the desired damage. Underpenetration does not either. You probably should not hunt caribou, say, with a 150 gr ballistic tip, and you definitely shouldn't hunt elephant with a core lokt. By the same token, hunting deer with solids from a .458 isn't the best idea either. This category is all about matching to the purpose. The most common is a jacketed bullet with an exposed lead tip.

EXAMPLES: Remington CoreLokt and CoreLokt Ultra, Federal Power-shok, Accutip, anything with "bonded" in the name, Nosler Ballistic Tip. My favorite is Remington Core Lokt. Cheap, and it works.

Competition bullets sacrifice penetration and expansion for accuracy. As a rule, competition rifle bullets will incorporate certain features, depending on the competition. They tend to have a high sectional density, as high a ballistic coefficient as possible (looking at you, .50 BMG), very high quality jackets that are moderate in thickness, and above all they are very uniform. Uniformity is possibly the most important thing, as all accuracy is is repeatablility. Competition bullets may be suited to hunting, but you could really only justify this by saying that you can put a bullet exactly where you need it at range, which I think is wrong. With a prarie dog or groundhog, sure. It'll die readily from an Amax. But if you're hunting moose with a 168gr SMK, you're not thinking it through. The shallow penetration and poor reactivity (In comparison to a proper bullet) is inhumane, especially if some unknown factor causes you to miss the vitals. Don't trade super accuracy for proper on-target ballistics except in moderation.
As for other styles of competition, lead bullets are popular in pistol shooting because they don't splatter as much, and the speed and nature of competitive handgunning makes accuracy not as important. Nobody can knock ten poppers down with the accuracy a BUL M-5 is capable of in 5 seconds. From a 25 yard slowfire, maybe. But accuracy is not the primary concern in quickdraw silhouette, within reason. On large rifles, like .45 blackpowders, I have seen more than a few molds for competition lead bullets. They all seem to incorporate "relieving grooves". I am only guessing, but I would think that this furthers the BC (Important with long range slow movers like in BPCR competition) and lowers pressure, a la the Barnes all copper triple shocks.

EXAMPLES: Sierra Matchking, M118LR, Lapua Scenar, Hornady AMax, any number of custom bullets. My favorite is the Amax.

Self defense bullets tend to be just like game bullets- they split the difference between ball and varmint. Humans are not particularly thickskinned, but regardless the penetration a 32 grain V-max gives may not be adequate. Typically, rifle bullets for self defense tend to gravitate more towards varmint bullets than solid bullets. Weights tend to be lighter, with higher speeds resulting. This is generally indicative of more expansion and shallower penetration, whereas a slower, heavier bullet would penetrate more and expand less. For people concerned with thin walls and family members, however, some rounds are made "frangible", sacrificing penetration for extreme explosivity. The theory is that if you hit a wall, the bullets will either stop, or lose a very large amount of energy. Rifle bullets tend to not stop in common house materials, but the design may influence what happens when they pass through, and this could be important, depending on your situation.

EXAMPLES: Hornady TAPFPD, Federal Hydrashok, Remington Golden Sabre, any sort of buckshot. My favorite is buckshot, but I'm not averse to using anything else if need be.

Gimmick bullets are best avoided, in my opinion. I classify a gimmick bullet as one that does things that we should not expect a bullet to do. We have all seen those little Glaser shells on sale. For the low price of about three dollars a round, these bullets will, we are assured, not penetrate a wall, but will undoubtedly through the use of shotgun pellets drop any attacker. The concern here is that they may penetrate far too shallow, or they may simply not work, as nobody can afford to practice enough to ensure they will work reliably. The recoil from the Glasers tends to be more than a little on the light side, and I don't personally trust them to cycle. ExtremeShok is another brand that falls solidly in the "gimmick" category. They promise all the same things that glasers do (and sometimes more), and cost a bunch. They also have some rather off-the wall claims, and a very entertaining website, but not for good reasons. For your defense, stick to a well constructed JHP, buckshot, or a more conventional rifle round. Okay? I think you could make an argument that frangible rounds fall under this category, but I would say they don't.
This isn't to say that all new designs are gimmicks, because some designs truly do work. Look at the leverevolution rounds. They do increase retained energy and add range. Not as much as they say, but they do do it some. And I would love to get ahold of some Berger Varmint Grenades.

EXAMPLES: Glaser "safety slug", ExtremeShok EFMJ, .22 shotshells, bean bag shells, "less lethals".

I'm bored and nothing is on TV, so anybody else wants to weigh in, have at it. I realize I was very rifle-centric, and different rules apply in some cases for handguns and bullets intended for handguns. But, the most important thing to me seems to be that you should not try to make a bullet do what it is not designed to do, faster is not necessarily better, and the more tacticool or extremely innovative a bullet is pitched as the less likely it will remain available, and it will inversely cost more.

Last edited by Cboys : 2007-07-12 at 03:44. Reason: 12000 characters exactly!
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  #2   Add hellisforheroes to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-11, 23:51
hellisforheroes hellisforheroes is offline
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Thumbs up Re: A word on bullets.

Very well done.

As far as handguns go, I'd like to add a little on actual projectile performance vs hype.

As Cboys mentioned there is a lot of hype surrounding "gimmick" bullets. At the same time, other projectiles may become surrounded by public hysteria out of all proportion to their actual abilities.

A prime example of this is the now-defunct Black Talon.

The Black Talon was a jacketed hollowpoint handgun round produced in the early 1990's (I'm going from memory here, you want exact: google it) by Olin Corporation (who own the Winchester name as it applies to making ammunition. FN Herstal owns the Winchester name for making guns, but that's another story).

The bullet was produced with a nickeled casing and a black moly-coated (dry lubricant film) bullet, so it looked very tacticool and evil. The Black Talon was only one of many JHP (jacketed hollowpoint) bullets produced during that era (the Speer Gold Dot and the Federal Hydrashok are two others), but differed from the others in the nature of its jacket construction. The Black Talon's jacket was reinforced near the bullet tip, and deliberately cut away at the hollow.

This jacket design produced the effect that when the bullet impacted, it would open up and produce six radial cutting edges (the "talons") which protruded at right angles to the bullet body. The intent was that these cutting edges would cause severe tissue laceration as they passed through flesh. In reality, tests done upon the Black Talon did not show it to be markedly more effective than other contemporary designs, but that didn't stop the ignorant from capitalizing on an opportunity to vilify it.

After several highly publicized shootings, and a number of "expert" sources offering anecdotal evidence about the incredible lethality of the round, it was pulled from production in the face of massive lawsuits.

Interestingly one lawsuit that did see court, in New York, was filed on the basis that Olin was negligent for producing such a dangerous and unsafe bullets. The court's finding was that bullets are supposed to wound or kill, thus Olin was not negligent in designing one that did exactly those things.

Nevertheless, despite no empirical evidence to support them, and legal precedent ruling against them, the antigunners succeeded in having the Black Talon killed using nothing more than public fear and ignorance. There's a lesson to be had here on the nature of gun control.

As an interesting postscript, Winchester shortly thereafter released the Ranger SXT line, which consisted of a Black Talon-style bullet loaded into the same nickeled case, but without the scary black coating. The industry joke is that SXT stands for Same eXact Thing. There's also a lesson about getting around gun control to be had here.
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  #3   Add reggie_love to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-12, 02:36
reggie_love reggie_love is offline
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Default Re: A word on bullets.

man, I once shot .22LR hollowpoint into a stump just to see how much it would expand.
I yanked the bullets out and anybody who thinks you can get a "CD-sized" hole is retarded.
It barely even penetrated, and only expanded to about .45
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  #4   Add Cboys to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-12, 02:43
Cboys Cboys is offline
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Somewhere over the rainbow Cboys is helpful
Default Re: A word on bullets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie_love View Post
man, I once shot .22LR hollowpoint into a stump just to see how much it would expand.
I yanked the bullets out and anybody who thinks you can get a "CD-sized" hole is retarded.
It barely even penetrated, and only expanded to about .45
Ah, but if you'd used ".30-30s with ballistic tips" it would have made a CD sized hole, you see.
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  #5   Add reggie_love to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-12, 04:46
reggie_love reggie_love is offline
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That one place with those guys reggie_love is helpful
Default Re: A word on bullets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cboys View Post
Ah, but if you'd used ".30-30s with ballistic tips" it would have made a CD sized hole, you see.
http://tinyurl.com/zcwtb
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  #6   Add skidmeister927 to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-12, 18:52
skidmeister927 skidmeister927 is offline
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Default Re: A word on bullets.

I wonder how hard it would be to make a mold so you could pour your own ballistic tips. You could probably make a little dot sticking out that would enable you to push it into a 30-30 hollow point. I might have to do a little experimenting with this...
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  #7   Add 5.56 SS109 to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-12, 20:54
5.56 SS109 5.56 SS109 is offline
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Default Re: A word on bullets.

Actually they do make .30-30 ballistic tips.

Hornady LeverEvolution ammo.

It uses some kind of funky plastic that flattens out when pressed against something (so it doesn't set off the primer of the round in front of it) but it keeps it's shape while in flight.

I don't see the point of using fancy plastic bullets in something as tried and true as the .30-30

But then again I don't bother with the .30-30 and I don't deal with Hornady, so I'm just speaking from bias.
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  #8   Add Random_Looney to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-12, 21:26
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
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Default Re: A word on bullets.

Why do you not deal with Hornady?


Good original post.
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  #9   Add Cboys to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-13, 02:24
Cboys Cboys is offline
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Default Re: A word on bullets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109 View Post
Actually they do make .30-30 ballistic tips.

Hornady LeverEvolution ammo.

It uses some kind of funky plastic that flattens out when pressed against something (so it doesn't set off the primer of the round in front of it) but it keeps it's shape while in flight.

I don't see the point of using fancy plastic bullets in something as tried and true as the .30-30

But then again I don't bother with the .30-30 and I don't deal with Hornady, so I'm just speaking from bias.
I mentioned a "sorta exception" in one of the first paragraphs.

The only unique thing about Leverevolution is that the polymer point flattens. I have no idea if the chainfiring story is true, but I'm not going to find out. .30-30 works just perfectly as it is, so long as you aren't trying to snipe elephants at 1000 yards.
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  #10   Add HMC to your ignore list  
Old 2007-07-13, 06:02
HMC HMC is offline
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Default Re: A word on bullets.

Just a FYI, but the EFMJ is a Federal product (with the silicon, IIRC, tip).

Also, I have personally tested Magsafes 64 grain +p 9mm load, and from what I have gathered, it does as advirtised. I will eventually do some testing through drywall and plywood, but in bare gelatin and clothing, it is exactly as advirtised. In fact, when I tested it through the 6 layers of clothing, the bullet had completely opened up before reaching the gelatin, and the jacket was recovered buried just 1/4 inch or so into the face of the gelatin block.

Also, comparing the hollow nose vs. the hollow point, I have never noticed much of a difference in neck length. At least comparing the two different WOLF projectiles, a 122 grain HP, and a 122 grain FMJ, they are both the same length, and I would guess that the center of gravity is very close, if not the same in both. While aluminum and wooden tips do move the COG back, it still isnt as effective as an empty cavity. However, becuase of the increased weight, and the naturally longer bullet, Im not sure how it would compare to the lighter, but differently constucted x39 rounds.
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