I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I've come up with a plan. Previously, I've talked about the plan here and there to a few people, but feel it's time to make it public.

The problem.
The problem is that there is an increasingly large number of bullshit posts, threadshitting, no-content posts, and users who think the epitome of posting is calling each other faggots in every thread. I'm not talking about spammers, who are blatanly breaking the rules. I'm talking about posters who are degrading the quality of the forum with this ridiculous "content".

So far, I've heard solutions like "Well, just ignore them", which sounds like a great idea in theory, except for the fact that these people have more accounts than the Mormons have bibles. Ignoring the problem doesn't solve it, and people posting "OMG IGNORE THEM" is only going to encorage these users, and cause them to make more accounts.

What about banning them? Again, it sounds good in theory, until they just come back, again and again, with a multitude of ways to get back in and continue to shit up the place. Obviously, banning users doesn't work, and only begins to create infamy, which many of them are trying for.

Of course, infractions are equally as useless, as they don't do anything except eventually get the user banned, or the user can make a new account as soon as a few infractions are received, essentially making them immune to infractions. Infractions do nothing to solve this problem.


The Solution
So, what's the solution here? It's quite simple, and extremely effective. Require a small amount, such as $5 for registration of an account. Everybodies first reaction here is "PAY FOR FORUM? WHAT?" It's understandable, if they don't see the whole picture.

The point of this isn't about money. The amount is just some arbitrary amount, and it shouldn't be shown as a way to somehow try and make money off this site. This place has ads for income generation, so this obviously isn't the issue.

The point of this is simple: equating value to something that otherwise has no value. Face it, users accounts have no value. None. When a user can make 50 accounts in a row and start posting whatever the hell they feel like, they don't give a shit about following the rules, getting "ignored", banned, infracted, or anything. Should all of their accounts run out, they just make more. Accounts are an infinite resource, and like supply and demand, their value is zero.

By equating value to users accounts (monetary is the easiest way, but any other sort of value works as well, should anybody think of some), it makes posters realize that what they've got is no longer just a throwaway item. Now, by getting rid of the shitposters, spammers, and users who otherwise break the rules, they have lost something of value, by breaking the rules.

Nobody is going to spend $5 just to post "ive had ur mum to appear" or making threds titles "ur all r faggots lolololol" when they know they're going to get banned for it. This will improve the overall quality of the posts, and the forum on the whole, as well as making things more enjoyable to read, which in turn will attract more (legit) users to the site.

Now, there's a few things that have been brought to my attention as possible drawbacks here. One being, that it would be "unfair" to current users. This isn't the case, as every user who currently has an active account, can keep their account. Only new accounts are subject.

The second being, that users who would otherwise contribute, won't join, if this is implemented. Perhaps a few users will be turned away, yes, but the elimination of spam, threadshitting, no-content posts, and other rule-breaking which degrades the forum will be eliminated. Seeing this, new users would be more likely to join, as they see their account not only having value as they've attached $5 to it, it also has value in the fact that they know that their posts and contributions to the forum won't be drowned out by a heap of shitty users, causing better posts, and better threads.

Third, the case of getting the account fee, since the average age on this site tends to be in the hischool range. Every major bank around will open a checking account and give a visa check card to anybody, so nobody should be somehow prevented from registering if they choose. PayPal or other such methods are also an easy way for it. I had a Visa check card I could use online when I was 15, no parents required. Again, all current users will keep their accounts, so this isn't meant to ostracize anybody. $5 is less than the price of a movie ticket nowadays. Maybe it'll get you a Big Mac meal at McDonalds. This is one time, not recurring.

Wrap-up

Bans would work like bans, except a user isn't banned permanently, they just have to reactive or reregister a new account (and are subject to the $5). Permanently banning by could be done for serious offenses, like say, child porn. Probationary periods could be offered for minor infractions, to serve more like a warning to users. The infraction system could apply towards a probation of an amount of time, depending on offense, ranging from a few hours, to a few days.

Of course, to keep some of the "atmosphere" of the old site, so to speak, forums like Half Baked could be designated to where users CAN post like that. There they can spread internet memes, post garbage, or do whatever the feel like (provided it doesn't break one of the fundamental rules of the site) without repercussion. Bitch & Moan could be the same way. This allows users who feel the need to post Bel-Air to be able to do so without shitting up the rest of the site and irritating other users. However, all "standard" forums should be expected to have a sense of decency when posting.

This can be applied to thinks like leet speak, AOL-speak, binary, or any other ways of otherwise not having a sense of decency when posting, but it's entirely up to the administration what would qualify and what would not. For the record, I vote leet speak, AOL speak, or other shit speak should not be allowed. I really don't see it being too much to ask to add a y and an o to "your". This is all based on intent. Nobody is saying that your posts have to be 100% perfect and clear of typos, and nobody is saying that posting like that can't be used satirically for example. It's very obvious who's using it in context, and who's using it just because they don't feel like taking the extra six seconds to make a decent post.

The big question is, who's going to front this? I have no issue being the one, being the one to post about the changes, and organize a detailed set of rules and guidelines, provided I have support from the administration. Essentially, be the face of the proposal.



The first few days after implementation can be a crossover period, with no severe penalties for problems, aside from blatant rule-breaking. Sure, some users are going to feel the need to "test" the administration, and think it's absolutely hilarious to try and post "lol fag" at the first opportunity, but very quickly, users will realize (perhaps after an example or two of people breaking the rules) that the forums are getting cleaned up, and turned around, the quality of the threads are going up, better posts will be made, spam will be all but eliminated, and overall, Totse will be a genuinely awesome forum to be a part of.


Any feedback is welcome.

So what you're saying is:

"Let's put a price on free speach."?

Any feedback is welcome.

It is of my opinion that any already registered user with multiple accounts could profit from such a proposal.

"Hey buddy why pay $5 when you can buy one of my old troll accounts for just $2?!? I have 100 of them :D"

An influx of users might get the tax department on Jeffs ass. Not knowing his situation he might get bumped into a higher tax bracket??

There's already more than enough morons registered to say the stupid shit.

Hmmm and one other thing I can think of...it is ONLY $5, as you said a small amount in any case but wouldn't you think certain individuals would want something for their money? I mean it would green light complaints about something wrong in the system to its operator, if someone came here thinking it was good and was disappointed might want a refund...scamming the system?

I'm not too sure about this. I like the idea just not individuals out there.

"Free speach[sic]" isn't a monetary reference. This doesn't somehow infringe upon the fact that users can still say whatever the feel like, provided it's not breaking any of the general rules, which have always been present.

You know as well as I do, that this isn't some ingenious way of trying to prevent free speech.

It is of my opinion that any already registered user with multiple accounts could profit from such a proposal.

"Hey buddy why pay $5 when you can buy one of my old troll accounts for just $2?!? I have 100 of them :D"

An influx of users might get the tax department on Jeffs ass. Not knowing his situation he might get bumped into a higher tax bracket??

There's already more than enough morons registered to say the stupid shit.

Hmmm and one other thing I can think of...it is ONLY $5, as you said a small amount in any case but wouldn't you think certain individuals would want something for their money? I mean it would green light complaints about something wrong in the system to its operator, if someone came here thinking it was good and was disappointed might want a refund...scamming the system?

I'm not too sure about this. I like the idea just not individuals out there.

There isn't going to be some "black market trade" system going on with accounts. Sure, some users have multiple accounts, and even if they come up with a way to sell them off to other users for $2, it doesn't matter. Like I said, the point isn't' money, it's not about trying to make this cash-generating machine. It's about equating value to something that otherwise has no value. After the first few waves of peoples "extra" accounts are gone, there will be no problem. Besides, even if everybody has 2 accounts, lets assume, there is still value there, as they know that once those are gone (assuming they get themselves banned), they're gone forever. Again, it equates some sort of value. Any dupe accounts that are found from users can be removed as well.

Morons who are already registered that just say stupid shit will get the boot if they're breaking any rules. The rules apply to everyone, not just new members.

For their $5, they can contribute to the forum, which has tens of thousands of members, start threads, post, PM, everything, and actually have a good quality of posts, and members who all contribute with their content. Browsing the forum and text files should be open to everybody, of course, as this isn't meant to be a way of ostracizing people.

Morons who are already registered that just say stupid shit will get the boot if they're breaking any rules. The rules apply to everyone, not just new members.

I'll give you the other ones but...What rules? They don't exist now - look in the thread of my own creation.

Also I say if someone submits a good textfile and AREN'T a member they should get an account for free...but then you'd have to be checking textfiles...and ensuring it's original work. Actully scrap that idea it could never work.

I'll give you the other ones but...What rules? They don't exist now - look in the thread of my own creation.

Also I say if someone submits a good textfile and AREN'T a member they should get an account for free...but then you'd have to be checking textfiles...and ensuring it's original work. Actully scrap that idea it could never work.

Well, if somebody actually wants to run something like that, sure, it sounds fine to me. Making a quality file and submitting it to get an account gives your account value. Of course, then it runs into a few issues of plagiarism, but if there's anybody willing to watch that or take care of it, it's just as effective or an alternative even.


The rules just need to be posted for everybody to see, to get the ball rolling. I'd even make a static page somewhere that says "THE RULES" or something and have a big fat link to them at the account registration page that says "READ THE DAMN RULES OR YOU WILL GET BANNED". ..something to that effect.

I forgot to add, so I'll add it here. When a user gets probated or banned for something, mark the post or thread where it happened, and make that visible for everybody. This is a good way to establish what NOT to do.

That's an incredibly retarded idea, even for you.

What right does anyone have to 'freedom of speach' on what is infact, a privately owned private website, that the owner simply lets people use and post on?

If the owner of Totse really wanted to he/she could edit all of our posts and chage all of our screennames to "fuckholes and shitcunts" if he so wished!

Whining about freedom of speach is all very well, but when it's on private property, the rules are those of the owner.



In general, I do think this would be an awesome fucking idea!
It would indeed stop the wave after wave of people swarming in creating new accounts after each old one is banned.

I'm just cautious that there are good posters who might not be able to pay or dont have the right methods.
You'd have to make sure that there were a variety of payment methods, even if one of them was slamming some cash in an envelope and sending it to the owner.


=========================================

Then also another solution to this problem would be to close registration. And then, on one day a month registration would be open.
This date would of course be made known, so people who truly wanted to register would know when to come back.


And the people who'd want to make a new account simply for trolling and spamming? I think they'd have forgotten about totse by the time that date came around.
====================================

I know you think SomethingAwful and SuicideGirls are great, but there's no reason I can see for totse to be anything like them.

From what Jeff is doing, I see things going in a very different direction.

I think it would kill the growth of totse.

But of course, I personally think it's ridiculous to pay for a forum.

I still can't get over the fact that Kai paid for some mediocre porn site then bragged about it, and even held a contest for it.

I still can't get over the fact that Kai paid for some mediocre porn site then bragged about it, and even held a contest for it.

Oh, it goes far beyond that simple thing. Far beyond it. The very name Kai is almost enough to make me laugh.

Well it's great that we're so open to new ideas in this topic.

It's always good to be open to bad ideas. totse has a whole forum dedicated to them.

As far as the part that was edited out, moderators are not different from regulars; we're just in charge of making their experience more pleasent.

If I had to pay for an account, I sure as hell wouldn't be here.

This idea is so fucking stupid, I can barely comprehend it. It would kill forum growth immediately.

Lets say, for arguments sake, that I'm a good poster. I stumble across this site called totse.com. Maybe my friend showed it to me, maybe I was just searching for a different take on religion, or maybe The Book of Bob. Sure, I stumbled across this same site in the past looking for the anarchist cookbook, but I've grown past that stage, and just today realized totse had forums. Wow, cool. A place for people who think like me to discuss things we like or don't like, or disagree on. This could bring my totse experience to a whole new level.

Whats this? A mandatory $5 donation? I know its not a lot of money; its barely enough money to get a good breakfast at the Ihop.

But its still money. Its money for a product that I can get for free any number of other places.

Its also my time. That means I have to take time to put 5 dollars in an envelope, address it to somewhere in Walnut creek, and wait 6 weeks to 6 months for the barely-resident sysadmin to validate my account.

It really puts things in perspective. Instead of wasting my time on an internet board, I could use that $5 and the time it took to address and mail an envelope to have a pint or two with my buddies down at the bar.

You said it yourself Kai. This place is loaded with kidiots. Why should I, a good poster, PAY for access to a forum thats filled with stupid people? There are many sites dedicated to pretty much the same principles as totse. Rorta, paradoxsector, bombshock, and to a lesser extent, roguesci. The good posters will all go to these other sites, because 1) They are still free. 2) They, because they are smaller and more exclusive, have fewer idiots.

Totse is great, don't get me wrong, but this idea is retarded.

There's a difference between not being open to new ideas(which seems to be what you're suggesting) and not being open to down right retarded ideas.

Paying to post on totse is just inherently flawed and retarded. There's no other way to slice it.

=========================================

Then also another solution to this problem would be to close registration. And then, on one day a month registration would be open.
This date would of course be made known, so people who truly wanted to register would know when to come back.


And the people who'd want to make a new account simply for trolling and spamming? I think they'd have forgotten about totse by the time that date came around.
====================================

See, this is a good idea.

And the people who'd want to make a new account simply for trolling and spamming? I think they'd have forgotten about totse by the time that date came around.

Doubtful. They'd just register a couple hundred accounts real quick and use them over the course of the next month.

Wow Kai, you've out done yourself this time.

This is, by far, the worst idea I've ever heard.

There's way too many holes in that "proposal"... so many things wrong with it that it's pointless to name them... honestly.

=========================================

Then also another solution to this problem would be to close registration. And then, on one day a month registration would be open.
This date would of course be made known, so people who truly wanted to register would know when to come back.


And the people who'd want to make a new account simply for trolling and spamming? I think they'd have forgotten about totse by the time that date came around.
====================================

That's a pretty good idea.

Why not?

I pay almost $50/month to use my cell phone, andd the Wasilla library is thinking of imposing a $50/year user fee.

Limited time registration would be great! You could do it every month, and erase accounts that are left vacant (a troll stash)

We'd need some sort of system tough, like not deleting accounts for being inactive after they've been established (like, 4months of activity, definitely NOT by post count)


add:
I don't think anybody's gonna pay anything for usage of a webforum.

Huge dittos on that one.

I mean what the FUCK FUCK!

If I had to pay for an account, I sure as hell wouldn't be here.

This idea is so fucking stupid, I can barely comprehend it. It would kill forum growth immediately.

Lets say, for arguments sake, that I'm a good poster. I stumble across this site called totse.com. Maybe my friend showed it to me, maybe I was just searching for a different take on religion, or maybe The Book of Bob. Sure, I stumbled across this same site in the past looking for the anarchist cookbook, but I've grown past that stage, and just today realized totse had forums. Wow, cool. A place for people who think like me to discuss things we like or don't like, or disagree on. This could bring my totse experience to a whole new level.

Whats this? A mandatory $5 donation? I know its not a lot of money; its barely enough money to get a good breakfast at the Ihop.

But its still money. Its money for a product that I can get for free any number of other places.

And what product is that? All the good conversation, entertainment, and knowledge that totse offers? I doubt you could get all that for free anywhere else.

Its also my time. That means I have to take time to put 5 dollars in an envelope, address it to somewhere in Walnut creek, and wait 6 weeks to 6 months for the barely-resident sysadmin to validate my account.

This isn't even an issue. Tons and tons of people are constantly buying shit on the internet. Pretty much the only people who can't and don't are either lazy or 14.

It really puts things in perspective. Instead of wasting my time on an internet board, I could use that $5 and the time it took to address and mail an envelope to have a pint or two with my buddies down at the bar.

If you think posting and more importantly reading some of the threads on totse (I'm not talking about just SG and HB) is more of a waste of time than drinking some beers and bullshitting with a few friends then you're just wrong.

You said it yourself Kai. This place is loaded with kidiots. Why should I, a good poster, PAY for access to a forum thats filled with stupid people?

You wouldn't have to pay, you're already a member. You seem to be missing the whole concept. If Kai's plan worked out there wouldn't be any (or nearly as many) stupid people, so why wouldn't you pay?

There are many sites dedicated to pretty much the same principles as totse. Rorta, paradoxsector, bombshock, and to a lesser extent, roguesci. The good posters will all go to these other sites, because 1) They are still free. 2) They, because they are smaller and more exclusive, have fewer idiots.

All those forums have almost no traffic as of the last time I was there and just plain suck ass. Sure, we might lose a few good posters to free forms, but all the idiots/spammers/trolls would go there too. Then they'll be in the same boat we're in now.

Totse is great, don't get me wrong, but this idea is retarded.

Is it?

I know a ton of people who don't post on totse anymore because they think it's gone to shit. I'm sure a lot of you do too.

And since Euda mentioned SA, let's use it as an example. It's a great forum because the posters there either have no desire, or are too afraid of losing their accounts to make a post reading "lol" or "+1". There's heaps of genuinely entertaining threads (something that's become a rarity on totse as of late) there because people can make threads and expect good replies. I think they can attribute all of that to their $5 registration fee.

In my opinion, the overall quality of posts and posters has been on a steady decline for about a year. None of the forums move as fast as they used to, either. That's a clear sign that people are leaving and not as many people visit the forums. A forum is a place for discussion. If totse had a better quality of discussion we wouldn't have any of the problems I just mentioned.

What else are we supposed to do, sit around and hope the problem remedies itself? That people will just start making better posts and stop being idiots? I don't think that's gonna happen.

By my understanding, the whole concept of totse is an open forum for discussion. An open website for textfiles. These open resources are to be accessible by all.

This 'new' idea is very exclusionist. I don't how totse could operate under this setup without changing its values.

I agree with Euda 100%.

Also, making people pay 5 dollars or even 2 cents to get a totse account has to be the shittiest idea ever.

What else are we supposed to do, sit around and hope the problem remedies itself? That people will just start making better posts and stop being idiots? I don't think that's gonna happen.

You make it sound like paying to post is the only possible solution, when that's clearly not the case. Yoyobek posted a great alternative to Kai's retarded plan.

Who the fuck in here suggested that we should stick our thumbs in our ass and just hope the idiots leave? Last I checked no one did. All we're saying is that this proposed plan is DUMB AS FUCK. That's it. No one is saying that there isn't a problem with spammers, but simply that this proposed solution is beyond retarded.

As I previously mentioned, everything is openly viewable by everybody, including the forum, archive, and all the textfiles. Nobody is somehow trying to prevent unregistered users from viewing things, and this isn't some plot to try and ostracize anybody. There are nearly 90,000 registered users here.

I don't think anybody's gonna pay anything for usage of a webforum.

This model has been tried before by other forums with huge success. Also the fact that $5 is such a trivial amount, that it's not preventing anybody from registering based on that.


You make it sound like paying to post is the only possible solution, when that's clearly not the case. Yoyobek posted a great alternative to Kai's retarded plan.

No, that's a terrible idea. Making registration open one day a month is just going to cause people to register a multitude of accounts on that day. It won't work, because, like I said, registering an account still has no value, as any user can register a hundred accounts when registration is open and then use them "as needed".

In comes Mokothar with an extremely simple screening method ...

I mean come on, nobody's gonna build up dozens of reputable accounts so he can use them for spam.

As I previously mentioned, everything is openly viewable by everybody, including the forum, archive, and all the textfiles. Nobody is somehow trying to prevent unregistered users from viewing things, and this isn't some plot to try and ostracize anybody. There are nearly 90,000 registered users here.

Your plan excludes people based on a monetary investment. Does that sound like the totse you know?

I don't really think it was a dumb idea, but I also don't think it will fly.

Jeff hasn't come up with a way to let people donate money for Totse and I doubt he would go for this idea at all.

I, too, think that closing registration except for limited times would be a better idea. But I doubt that Jeff would go for that either as he is totally against closing reg.

Just my 2 cents....

Your plan excludes people based on a monetary investment. Does that sound like the totse you know?

On the same grounds, I'm sure we're excluding people without internet lines based on a monetary investment of them paying their ISP. Plus, with many people dropping $40 a month for a cable line, $5 isn't some great wall designed to keep people out. $5, one time, keep your account forever, unless you act like a fucktard, break the rules, and get yourself banned. Again, I point out that the sole purpose of it is to attach value to the account. Money is just the simplest way of adding value to something.

If anybody has any other suggestions on how to add value (such as article writing) to an account, that can replace or be used as well as $5.

I'm not going to bother with your semantics. My opinion has been voiced in a clear manner.

How about people only have to pay to register on the forums?

That way the text files would remain free for the public and all would be good.

That isn't totse though. This goes against the essence of totse IMO. I would honestly stop posting if something like this were ever enacted.

I think maybe a modified version of yoyobeks plan is the best. Something along those lines would be ideal.

Paying for the right to post on totse is just beyond idiotic.

^^
Dont stop posting!

I would go on strike.
Literally, I'd sit outside my workplace with a little sign saying
"not gonna work till nappy comes back "

I do think it would be cool if there was an optional way to give money to the owner/s of totse though.

Think about the fun times you've had on Totse, and how cool it is. And then think about the fact that some guy is putting hard work and quite a bit of money into keeping this place up and running... and seemingly getting nothing in return.

Except ofcourse the gratification of having such a great site, but it'd be cool if he/she got some monies from it too.

I can't think of a word powerful enough to describe how just how bad and wrong this idea is; maybe badwrong. or "badong".

Yes that will do, this idea is fucking badong.

Why couldn’t registration simply have a 10-15 day delay/waiting period between the time a new account is created and the time the account is activated? It obviously wouldn’t prevent someone from making multiple accounts, but it would be easier to enforce a temporary ban (as long as the user’s clone accounts were also temp-banned). A user would pretty much be forced to wait out his ban, since opening a new account would take as long as the ban. It’s by no means a foolproof plan. Just an idea.

By the way, I can’t agree with charging people for access to totse. I can’t imagine such a policy as being a cure to what ails us.

If I had to pay ANY amount, I sure as FUCK wouldn't be here.

I have some words for you, Tru, but I'll keep them to myself.

Where's the fun in that?

Besides it's seems to be an overwhelming "No, this is stupid." to tru_sol...I mean Kai's proposal.

Fuck man, some of you are like children - I would have thought some of you could have done a much better job and given some constructive criticism instead of expressing your personal opinions on the topic starter instead. Hell, someone put an idea foreward, which is all it was an idea. I thought this forum was meant for stuff like THIS.

The idea itself, isn't 'retarded' (as some of you put it) but it may be too much of a dream for this type of site. This system WORKS with other sites perfectly fine remember.

The only reason it won't work with totse is because of its already large user base and lengthy history. The idea of it interfering with free speech isn't really an issue in my opinion, the forums still would HAVE free speech, as long as you were signed up (I'm not speaking about the other part of kai's post re: post quality guidelines).

Personally, I wouldn't be able to pay - I have no way to, no paypal, no credit card so you'd lose me for that very reason (I bet some of you will change your minds about this idea now haha).

I'm not for it, but I don't think its a bad idea. I DO think something has to be done, quality is low and I've always held the opinion that we need to be a lot more tougher with our modding (espeically in SG - take NO shit, they can go to HB for that).

Fuck man, some of you are like children - I would have thought some of you could have done a much better job and given some constructive criticism instead of expressing your personal opinions on the topic starter instead. Hell, someone put an idea foreward, which is all it was an idea. I thought this forum was meant for stuff like THIS.

The idea itself, isn't 'retarded' (as some of you put it) but it may be too much of a dream for this type of site. This system WORKS with other sites perfectly fine remember.

Well it IS a retarded idea. If somethings Brown, I sure as hell ain't gonna call it yellow. I don't think there's anyway to give constructive criticism for this inane idea. Paying for totse is quite simply, retarded. There's no other way to spin this. It isn't retarded simply because Kai was the one who proposed it, it's retarded because *gasp*, it's fucking retarded.

No one is denying that this doesn't work on forums like SA, but the fact remains that totse isn't SA, nor should we want to emulate SA. Living With Style is also a successful forum, but that doesn't mean we should pay members or anything like that. An idea like that would be retarded with regards to totse's history.

Well then, if you guys have got a better idea for how to deal with insane amounts of spammers and scripters with multiple accounts, lets hear em!

I've already said that I like your idea. Announce one day per month when registration is open, and do it that way. Will you still get people making multiple accounts? Yeah, but they won't be able to make as many. I know of a few sites, forum and torrent sites that operate under this guideline to prevent leechers and spammers. It works well.

I know that Jeff has closed registration for extended periods of time in the past, so I don't think this would be a problem. I think it's a great idea.

There's a website called Fark, it's..well it's not really a forum but people can post comments.

I dont know how that place avoids spam and rubbish, perhaps it's because alot of it is political.

But they've got an option. You can simply go to Fark, which means you get a few of the news reports and some of the other stuff. Or you can get total fark, which is like $5, and you can then access the whole website.

I dont know if something like that would work on Totse. Or what forums would be free or not.
Actually just scrap that idea.


I liked Kai's idea more because it was a way of getting money to the owner of Totse.


I'm calm now. Calm. In a boat with heather locklear.

I think like the idea of Jeff getting much as the next guy, but you're got to be delusional if you think that the 80,000 something members on Totse are going to be the ones to put that $400,000 + dollars in his pocket.

As Napoleon_Complex said, the idea isn't stupid because Kai posted it; it's stupid because it's a just stupid idea.

What was Kai expecting us to do, he doesn't post for 5 months and then expects us to jump up and down with joy at this completely ridiculous idea?

Well I know that for a long time a donation option was floated around, with different rewards(signature options, avatars, etc...). I know it was never put in place(obviously), but I can't remember if it was a legal reason(I think totse may have violated the rules of paypal) or simply a logistics reason. I don't know if this idea would be more realistic now that we've switched software, but anything would be better than paying to post.

Jeff, obviously, isn't interested in donations. If he was, there would be a way to donate.

You make it sound like paying to post is the only possible solution, when that's clearly not the case. Yoyobek posted a great alternative to Kai's retarded plan.

Who the fuck in here suggested that we should stick our thumbs in our ass and just hope the idiots leave? Last I checked no one did. All we're saying is that this proposed plan is DUMB AS FUCK. That's it. No one is saying that there isn't a problem with spammers, but simply that this proposed solution is beyond retarded.

At the time I posted there had been 3 (out of 21 posts) other ideas posted. Two of which were awful.

I like the idea of having to submit a good article as long as moderators can help out with plagarism checks and all that. The task would be too great for Jeff and the Super Moderators and applicants would never get approved.

At the time I posted there had been 3 (out of 21 posts) other ideas posted. Two of which were awful.

I like the idea of having to submit a good article as long as moderators can help out with plagarism checks and all that. The task would be too great for Jeff and the Super Moderators and applicants would never get approved.

Do you think that you'd be approved? If this was based on an essay or quality article?

Deffinately not me. I fail.

I think someone mentioned the idea of there being a period between registering and being able to post?

I dont know if that would actually deter spammers that much, atleast not the determined ones.


I think I misinterpreted peoples opinions in here, thought they were rebelling against the person not the idea. I was mistaken, sorry. :(

Do you think that you'd be approved? If this was based on an essay or quality article?

Definitely.

I don't even know why you'd ask that.

At the time I posted there had been 3 (out of 21 posts) other ideas posted. Two of which were awful.

I like the idea of having to submit a good article as long as moderators can help out with plagarism checks and all that. The task would be too great for Jeff and the Super Moderators and applicants would never get approved.

Which ones were awful and why were they awful?

Do you really think forcing people to submit articles would improve the text database? If only good, original articles are accepted, then the posting base for totse will be a tiny fraction of what it is now. It's just completely unfeasible, both in idea and in its ability to be carried out.

Just for shits and giggles, what articles have you submitted?

Which ones were awful and why were they awful?

Do you really think forcing people to submit articles would improve the text database? If only good, original articles are accepted, then the posting base for totse will be a tiny fraction of what it is now. It's just completely unfeasible, both in idea and in its ability to be carried out.

Just for shits and giggles, what articles have you submitted?

The one about opening registration for one day a month 'cause, like toraton said, people would just make a ton of accounts on that day.

The one about screening potential members wasn't that great either. How are we supposed to do that?

And not that it has any relevance (other than for you to make me look bad),but I haven't submitted any articles. Should I ever write one I'll be sure to link you to it.

With regards to the one day a month plan... Maybe a few people would create a bunch of accounts(Alduin and his ilk), but it will be a decrease in what we have now, and it's actually reasonable, unlike having Jeff and the supermods read articles posted by every single individual that wants to register, or asking for money to post here.

It's by far the best suggestion yet. Wouldn't you agree that limiting registration to one day would be better than the current set up? If we have a problem that needs to be solved, this proposed solution seems to be by far the most rational one put forth.

Nah, there was something of an issue with paypal and its terms and conditions that meant a paypal donate button couldnt be put on totse, that and you couldn't tell who donated (and for some reason the idea was that people who donated were to be given a special title)..

Something like that.. lol can't remember details.

With regards to the one day a month plan... Maybe a few people would create a bunch of accounts(Alduin and his ilk), but it will be a decrease in what we have now, and it's actually reasonable, unlike having Jeff and the supermods read articles posted by every single individual that wants to register, or asking for money to post here.

That's why I suggested ALL the moderators could read through 'em and approve people.

It's by far the best suggestion yet. Wouldn't you agree that limiting registration to one day would be better than the current set up? If we have a problem that needs to be solved, this proposed solution seems to be by far the most rational one put forth.

No. People will just be like "Oh, I have to wait til this day to register? ok.." and then they'll totally forget about it.

That's why I suggested ALL the moderators could read through 'em and approve people.

That still doesn't make it a good idea. A fraction of the articles submitted will be good or informative. Does that mean only a fraction would be allowed to post? Even then, considering the amount of articles that would be submitted, some mods wouldn't have the time or patience to even read them. It's just a completely irrational plan.



No. People will just be like "Oh, I have to wait til this day to register? ok.." and then they'll totally forget about it.

Wouldn't that be better than people being able to set up an unlimited number of accounts like they currently are? The people who truly care about posting on this site will remember to register.

I know that I personally have much better things to do than read user-submitted articles for someone else's website. Sure, I moderate the forum, and I enjoy doing it, but I'm not going to moderate content for the site. Leave that to Jeff.

Yeah I'm not sure I could be arsed to read through over 1000 articles written by people who njoy wrien on t intrnets lyek dis.

I wouldn't mind reviewing anything fictional or explosives related.

I'm disappointed that your solution doesn't involve a rack, lit candles, and leather bullwhips.

That'll learn the little fuckers.

On the note of making us a pay forum, I have to say that it pretty well works for The Straight Dope. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/) However, as much as I enjoy reading all the output of the people there I'll never become a member because I'm way too poor and cheap. And that's probably how a lot of other people think, too.

Kai: Thank you for your thoughtful proposal. It's something I have considered, and I've seen your solution work really well at limiting crap posts and spam other sites.

It would probably work here as well, but we'd also lose people who would not want to pay. I'm not sure that it would be worth losing those who didn't want to pay, but yours is the only proposal I've heard that I think has even a chance of limiting spam and crap posts.

The thought of making someone pay $5 or even $20 doesn't bother me in the least. Free Speech means that you are free to say what you like, not that you don't incur any expenses in order to say it.

Free Speech is not the same thing as Free Beer. Unfortunately the English language ties the word "Free" to both monetary and social concepts, so people tend to get the two confused.

Kai: Thank you for your thoughtful proposal. It's something I have considered, and I've seen your solution work really well at limiting crap posts and spam other sites.

It would probably work here as well, but we'd also lose people who would not want to pay. I'm not sure that it would be worth losing those who didn't want to pay, but yours is the only proposal I've heard that I think has even a chance of limiting spam and crap posts.

There's no doubt some users will potentially be lost, but also, other users will join because of the fact that the forum is heaps better than before. Also, some users who maybe know something and have something to contribute but are turned off by all the shitposts will contribute more. Lastly, some users who contribute sometimes and make shitposts the rest of the time will likely start contributing as well. Since all current users still have their accounts, there shouldn't be any population loss from the start (except for the spammers and shitposters)

The thought of making someone pay $5 or even $20 doesn't bother me in the least. Free Speech means that you are free to say what you like, not that you don't incur any expenses in order to say it.

Free Speech is not the same thing as Free Beer. Unfortunately the English language ties the word "Free" to both monetary and social concepts, so people tend to get the two confused.

If you want to implement this somehow, I'd be more than happy to stick around and help with it.

Also, this can potentially give more perks to users. For example, avatars can be permitted, as well as the ability to post full images again, since it's far, far less likely to be abused at that point with somebody thinking they're being clever by having a Goatse avatar or posting a 1600x1200 picture of somebody playing in feces.



edit: One other point, is that it would reduce the liability of Totse, from people posting passwords, pirated files, child porn, blatantly illegal material, etc. It's unlikely that the DMCA would be invoked or anything (what a joke), but it's not a good idea to have those things floating around anyway.

Why couldn’t registration simply have a 10-15 day delay/waiting period between the time a new account is created and the time the account is activated?

I had that set up with the old UBB software for a while, and it could be done with vBulletin as well. While I'm sure it reduced the number of spammers, it also reduced the inflow of new users overall.

Still, I might do it again.


By the way, I can’t agree with charging people for access to totse. I can’t imagine such a policy as being a cure to what ails us.

I'm on the fence myself. I firmly believe that people value what they pay for, and don't often value what is free. That said, at a fundamental level I don't like the idea of charging for basic "able to post messages" access.

I had some other ideas. Some of these overlap, some are mutually exclusive.


Charge people for immediate "able to post messages" access. Free accounts have to wait some number of days (3? 15?) before they can post.
Delete accounts over X days old with zero posts. That would keep spammers from building up a cache of "spare" accounts. (Unless they remember to post after the waiting period is over and before the deletion kills the account.)
Auto-ban any accounts that are on more than 10-20 people's "ignore" list.
Allow people to pay if they want to, payers would get additional privileges, such as avatars, signatures, and access to the Private Message system.
Payers might be allowed to infract users or they might be the only ones allowed to rep people. This might make reputation more relevant, making reputation a useful tool for identifying and banning spammers and shit-posters (unhelpful users). (And no, I would not use vB's algorithms for computing reputation totals. I'd write my own. The built-in algorithm sucks.)
Automatically identify and flag multiple accounts, and create a CGI script/tool to allow moderators to decide whether or not to ban secondary accounts. (Secondary accounts might be legit, e.g. "I wanted to change my name" or "My e-mail address changed and I can't remember my password.")Let me know what you think.

Auto-banning people who are ignored by more than 10 users just sounds like trouble waiting to happen. The thought that 10 bad users could literally ban users by simply "ignoring" them doesn't sit well with me.

The idea that regulars would might also gain the ability to infract other regulars sounds bad too. I mean isn't that the whole reason that there are moderators; to moderate the forums?

The flagging multiple accounts to mods/supermods/admins sounds likes a good idea though, especially since most mods can't see IPs.

As far as charging is concerned, I'm still strongly against it. I have to pay for school, gas, clothes, internet access, and my cell phone; adding an extra $20 a month for totse ($1040 a year) is more than I am willing to pay (as well as many others I'm assuming)

I'm thinking that the fee would only be one-time, but I also am strongly against it. I would not have joined years ago if totse had required me to pay.

Users infracting users and ignore-based bans also sound bad, those trolls could be resourceful. However, if totse becomes a pay-site then I think both of these are excellent ideas.

Not to derail the thread, but while you're looking at this, shouldn't we look into a way of helping moderators to communicate better? This forum has become a terrible mess of insults and puerile comments.

I think that the best ideas would be to delete old accounts after X days of inactivity, perhaps make the registration script check cookies or IP against a DB, so that a person registering two names with the same machine (or IP) would be flagged...

I'm pretty handy with php. Dunno if you'd trust anyone to help out on a script level, but I'm game.

I too don't think it's a good idea for autobanning people for being ignored by 10 or 20. Perhaps a higher number might make it feasible. Without seeing the numbers for how many is ignoring a certain person, I don't know what a good number might be.

I also don't think that letting users infract - even if they are paying - is a good idea. I think the potential for abuse is enormous. I mean I can see someone taking $5 or even $20 for the ability to go infraction crazy, even if it lasts only a day or two before they are found out and busted.

However, the rest of the ideas I think are a winner.

I like the idea of only opening registration once every month. I know of a few sites that do this(torrent sites to prevent people from joining and leeching), and it seems to be a successful strategy. Couple this with deleting accounts with no posts after a few days, and I think it would at least put a dent in the problem.

I'm with Napoleon on this, registration needs to be put on hold for a while.

That and the deletion of multiple accounts, I mean there are some users who have more than half a dozen accounts!

Charge people for immediate "able to post messages" access. Free accounts have to wait some number of days (3? 15?) before they can post.
Delete accounts over X days old with zero posts. That would keep spammers from building up a cache of "spare" accounts. (Unless they remember to post after the waiting period is over and before the deletion kills the account.)
Auto-ban any accounts that are on more than 10-20 people's "ignore" list.
Allow people to pay if they want to, payers would get additional privileges, such as avatars, signatures, and access to the Private Message system.
Payers might be allowed to infract users or they might be the only ones allowed to rep people. This might make reputation more relevant, making reputation a useful tool for identifying and banning spammers and shit-posters (unhelpful users). (And no, I would not use vB's algorithms for computing reputation totals. I'd write my own. The built-in algorithm sucks.)
Automatically identify and flag multiple accounts, and create a CGI script/tool to allow moderators to decide whether or not to ban secondary accounts. (Secondary accounts might be legit, e.g. "I wanted to change my name" or "My e-mail address changed and I can't remember my password.")I think that charging for immediate access and having a waiting period for free access would probably work well to cut down on spam.

Deleteing dormant accounts would also help. I think, though , that some provision should be in place to prevent deletion of an account should a members extended absence be necessary (vacation, etc).

The auto-banning via ignore list has the potential to be abused. If such a system were used, it may be wise to not let it be made known to everyone.

I can imagine possible issues with regular members being allowed to give infractions, but it probably wouldn't be too much of a problem.

As far as charging is concerned, I'm still strongly against it. I have to pay for school, gas, clothes, internet access, and my cell phone; adding an extra $20 a month for totse ($1040 a year) is more than I am willing to pay (as well as many others I'm assuming)

I don't think anyone would pay $20/month for totse.

Kai said $5 as a "sign up fee", I mentioned a figure of $20 but I was thinking of a (voluntary) subscription per year ($1.67/month) which would pay for more servers and more bandwidth. In case anyone doesn't know, the ads cover cabinet space and bandwidth expenses (mostly), they don't pay for new servers (or my time).

I would rather not add a fee unless it was optional -- I think there always has to be a way to get a free account. That's one reason why I suggested the "pay for immediate access" or "wait X days for your account to activate" as two options for getting an account. Anyone who's too impatient to wait can pay the $5. Spammers won't pay because their accounts will just get banned anyhow. Anyone who doesn't want to pay would have to be patient and wait a couple of days for activation.

Just an idea.

The immediate access fee is an excellent concept; perhaps a three or five day waiting period. If you can set that up, then a donation option would be a good fit as well.

Multiple account flagging would be helpful, if just for curiosity sake. I dated a girl that I met through totse for a while, only to realize that there was quite a bit of herself that was hidden through years of using other accounts and e-mails and a variety of deceptions; and outright lies, can't forget those. It may have helped out a bit. :p

Deletion of accounts with a zero post count would be a good addition. That would help.

Jeff while you're here, do you have any idea why only some mods can check IPs and the rest can't?

I think that charging for immediate access and having a waiting period for free access would probably work well to cut down on spam.

The problem isn't a waiting list. The problem is that even with a waiting list, the account is still worth nothing. So what if you have to wait 2 weeks for it? People will still register a dozen accounts and relax for two weeks until they become active. Not to mention they can continue to register accounts as they want and will have new ones every few days that way.

The auto-banning via ignore list has the potential to be abused. If such a system were used, it may be wise to not let it be made known to everyone.

This is why it's a bad idea. So what, somebody registers 10 bullshit accounts and then goes and starts autobanning everybody they see? Terrible. However, with the $N a pop for an account, that won't even be needed, as when somebody gets ignored, it's a hell of a lot bigger step to hop on another account to get "unignored" again. And it is NEVER a good idea to assume that these ideas can be hidden from users. See, with the huge spread of mods now (as opposed to say, 4 years ago), it's impossible to hold any information secret from users. Sure, maybe I could pull something like that off on my site, but just because it's me and I'm not telling it to anybody. But when you've got 20-30 people with access to that info, it's going to leak, and then work retroactively. Shit, I'm sure there are some mods who have already been telling their friends "OMG HURRY AND REGISTER EXTRA ACCOUNTS TOTSE MIGHT CHARGE FOR THEM SOON". I wouldn't even be surprised if there were MODS here who have done the same thing.

I don't think anyone would pay $20/month for totse.

Kai said $5 as a "sign up fee", I mentioned a figure of $20 but I was thinking of a (voluntary) subscription per year ($1.67/month) which would pay for more servers and more bandwidth. In case anyone doesn't know, the ads cover cabinet space and bandwidth expenses (mostly), they don't pay for new servers (or my time).

I would rather not add a fee unless it was optional -- I think there always has to be a way to get a free account. That's one reason why I suggested the "pay for immediate access" or "wait X days for your account to activate" as two options for getting an account. Anyone who's too impatient to wait can pay the $5. Spammers won't pay because their accounts will just get banned anyhow. Anyone who doesn't want to pay would have to be patient and wait a couple of days for activation.

Just an idea.

I wouldn't do monthly, just because people generally tend to dislike subscriptions, even when they amount to the same amount as just a one-time thing. Maybe it would work, or maybe it could be an additional option ($N once or $N recurring). Then again, I know there's some people here who have no problem paying $9 a month for webhosting on some WP blog they run which gets 150 hits a month, so you might be on the right track there.


The issue with pay for immediate access is the fact that the waiting time has to be substantial enough to warrant immediate access. A week-long waiting period isn't substantial enough to make somebody want to activate it immediately.. maybe if the wait time was three months, it would work. On the other hand, it could also screw over some users who are genuinely interested in posting (and happy to drop the few bucks), but since they see they can have an account without dropping the $N, they'll decide to wait it out and possibly lose interest by the time it's ready. I think an all-or-nothing approach is better.

Also, by making some accounts free, it lessens the value of the other accounts. Users are less likely to feel they've got something of value by dropping a few bucks on an account, if they can see people with free accounts running wild (and potentially shitting everything up). Also, the free account people are still less likely to make worthwhile posts, because they have no value attached to their account, since anybody can still make an army of accounts and just hang for a few days until they're active. Unless the waiting period is some over-the-top extreme amount of time, it's not going to do a damn thing to help.

The problem with trying to find inactive accounts is that it's stupidly easy to forge that. All they have to do is make a few bullshit posts somewhere to make it seem like they're legit accounts. This will happen just as soon as people realize that their inactive accounts are getting pruned, and not only do they now have MORE account, they're just going to make shitposts with their other accounts since it takes less effort.

PMing, avatars, and the like are a good incentive, yes, but I don't think they're a big enough incentive to make it work on a big level (there will be people who choose to go for it, regardless, but not the majority by a longshot) to get users into it.


edit: I also want to point out how fast opinions went from "lol worst idea evar kai gtfo fag" to "Oh shit, now that Jeff is talking about it I'll suddenly change my stance."