A Faith Of Commas?

[jackketch]

Do you realise how little biblical 'evidence' or support there is for most of what christians typically believe?

Let me give you some examples of some verses that christians tend to consider 'proof' texts for the biblical'ness of their doctrines.

Luke 23:43 (King James Version)

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ask any christian for 'proof' that we have an eternal soul which goes to heaven or hell upon our death and you can be sure that that verse will get quoted. And of course as original Jesus Tone it MUST be true!

But what if we just move that comma?

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

See the difference ?

Understand what that means theologically?

Suddenly we have a verse that doesn't confirm the existence of some supposed eternal soul but rather a statement confirming the doctrine of a bodily resurrection at the end of time.

Ain't no punctuation in the original.

Or have a look at

Luke 3:23 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Take out the commas and the parenthesis and think about it .

Even with the punctuation this verse could be understood in two completely different ways (ie that the people were right to suppose that Jesus was the son of Joseph).


And even when lack of punctuation isn't an issue, then we still have the problem of grammar.

"And the Word was God" can be translated (so I am informed by koine scholars) in 5 ways, three of which are considered 'correct'. Even the JW's "the word was a god" is permissible under the rules of what grammar the text has.

Now any christian reading this will be able to go on google and find reams and reams about why it MUST be 'the word was God' all written by people who know far more koine greek than I would ever want to know.

But if they are honest with themselves they'll realise that just the fact that so much is written trying to justify their preferred translation option that...

[mvpena]

Wow... it's been awhile since I've seen this comma debate come up. With that exact passage! The last time I heard this debate, some guy was trying to gain support for replacing the KJV with the Peshitta. Saying that Jesus' teachings could only be understood under his native language.

Thanks for the nostalgia.

And if we replace some words too, it's revealed that Jesus was a child molestor

Wait, what? Who the fuck told you that you can move commas around, it's been translated and I'm pretty sure the guy who did it knew what he was doing when he smacked it in the precise spot

[mvpena]

Originally Posted by Pilsu

Wait, what? Who the fuck told you that you can move commas around, it's been translated and I'm pretty sure the guy who did it knew what he was doing when he smacked it in the precise spot

When written in Aramaic, there are no commas. So it is up to the person who is translating it into another language to decipher the meaning of what was said. Also, this passage was rewritten in atleast 3-4 different langauges, that I know of, before it reached the King James Version.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by Pilsu

And if we replace some words too, it's revealed that Jesus was a child molestor

Wait, what? Who the fuck told you that you can move commas around, it's been translated and I'm pretty sure the guy who did it knew what he was doing when he smacked it in the precise spot

A rather uninformed comment.

Where a translator places commas is pretty much a judgement call and as such is subject to his own bias.

Originally Posted by Pilsu

And if we replace some words too, it's revealed that Jesus was a child molestor

Wait, what? Who the fuck told you that you can move commas around, it's been translated and I'm pretty sure the guy who did it knew what he was doing when he smacked it in the precise spot

The original text was written like so:

ICANTREMEMBERANYGREEKWORDSBUTIDORECALLTHEEXAMPLELO OKEDLIKETHIS

I'm sure there were clues as to where commas might fit, but it's probably not as clear as you might think.

Take out the commas and the parenthesis and think about it .

I can't figure out a significantly different way to interpret that verse.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by Twisted_Ferret

T
I can't figure out a significantly different way to interpret that verse.

Christians tend to mentally read it as 'people supposed he was the son of Joseph'.

[ArgonPlasma2000]

Once one dies, time is irrelevant anyway. If we are to assume that Christianity is correct, once you pass you have no reference between the moment you close your eyes for the last time and standing before God with everyone else.

I dont see how this makes any difference to theology or Christian living and practice save for comfort.

You assume incorrectly, jack, that you can move around punctuation and have true meaning. It is also incorrect of anyone else to assume the punctuation of the KVJ as it stands is correct. For the most authoritative stance on the Bible, one must read in the original language and context, of which you did not do.

You raise an interesting point, but its "spammish" to simply leave us hanging with that point and not go into the Greek to spell out what it really means. I cant just move punctuation around in your posts to change meaning and say with authority that it is what you say because I did not use context in your intent. Make the same connection with what you do and you see my point.

So, jack, do you know Greek?

Originally Posted by jackketch

A rather uninformed comment.

Where a translator places commas is pretty much a judgement call and as such is subject to his own bias.

So you're basically saying that they'd write

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

and

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

exactly the same way in the original language? Wasn't much of a language then

[fallinghouse]

Is the word order in Koine Greek the same as in modern day English? ie. same positioning of nouns, verbs, adjectives etc relative to each other.

Originally Posted by fallinghouse

Is the word order in Koine Greek the same as in modern day English? ie. same positioning of nouns, verbs, adjectives etc relative to each other.

Not even close.

[ArgonPlasma2000]

You really cant compare English and Greek.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by ArgonPlasma2000

So, jack, do you know Greek?

I'm an expert at 'greek':P

However if you mean koine, no not an expert. These days I'd have trouble telling the difference between the 'en arche ho logos' and my shopping list.

[Hare_Geist]

Originally Posted by jackketch

I'm an expert at 'greek':P

God damn, you're a lucky bastard! I'd love to be able to read Parmenides, Heraclitus and Plato in their original language.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by Hare_Geist

God damn, you're a lucky bastard! I'd love to be able to read Parmenides, Heraclitus and Plato in their original language.

LOL

Missed the joke, much?
greek = anal sex

(that's why i wrote 'greek' and not Greek!)

:P

[Hare_Geist]

greek = anal sex

That's news to me, lol.