totse.com | Gay Adoption

Mouse · #1 2007-04-25, 11:09

There have probably been numerous threads about this, however, another issue has occured to me.
I am opposed to gay adoption not because having two fathers or mothers would be "inflicting homosexuality on the children". Nor because the kids would be bullied at school, that would change with time as attitudes to mixed race marriages have (less than 100 years ago a white woman with a black kid would've been fucked, as would the black kid). It is the simple psychological need for both sexes to be present in a healthy family.
This was demonstrated to me by my little brother. My dad often spends alot of time away from home due to work. One day, while at his friend's house, his friend's dad came home. The emotional strain of not having his dad around all the time and seeing his friend's dad come home caused him to break down in tears because he "wanted Michael to see his daddy." Luckily his daddy came home the following day so Michael could indeed see him. However, the thought occurred to me, what if mummy or daddy wasn't present and never was (covering those kids who only have one parent due to death or marriage dissolution)? Would the psychological damage done to the child due to seeing their friend's "normal family" be great enough to do them long term harm?

Red Raven · #2 2007-04-25, 11:35

The supposed "mother and father" logic you are employing always breaks down when the facts are actually considered. About 50% of all marriages end in divorce, 27% of kids are already living in single-parent situations, one in two kids will live in a single-parent household at some point during their childhood, and so on. There is ample evidence that same-sex marriages/household situations do not turn the adopted child gay, so the burden is really on your side to prove that it would be better for these millions of children to languish in foster care for the majority of their lives versus having a chance to live with a loving couple that is fully prepared to take care of them.

And that is really what it comes down to: we have millions of kids in foster care, and it is not as if same-sex couples are somehow "stealing" the kids away from normal couples. I think it would be quite impossible to demonstrate that a kid would be worse off growing up in a gay household by people that actually want the child versus foster care with its absurd risk of child abuse (etc). You have to clear that hurtle before you can even face the facts that nearly a majority of all kids are missing a father or mother anyway, and there is no real proof that one member of the same-sex relationship cannot fulfill that role - perhaps not perfectly, but at least satisfactorily.

Mouse · #3 2007-04-25, 11:54

I'm not saying that it would affect their sexuality, simply their psychology. Through my example of a personal experience it's easy to see that not having a parent there for some of the time is an emotional strain on the child. So I can only imagine how bad it would be for a child who NEVER had a mother or father. True, marriage often ends in divorce nowadays (however, I wonder how many of those divorces that make up the 50% cited on that website occur after the children have left home or grown up past the age of 16) however, even if the parents are divorced, the majority of the time, the parentel influence is still there. In a purely single sex partnership with a child, it is still missing that vital maternal or paternal influence which a man or woman (depending on the case) Can in no way replace.
I think I've addressed everything in your post...

Edit: Maybe for older children it would be fine, past the age of about 10 when they can just about cope without the emotional support being gender orientated. But for younger children, I would think it may damage their emotional and personal development never to have input from both sexes.

Pilsu · #4 2007-04-25, 12:10

Children stuck in institutions have no people to guide them and really care. If you think those employees really give a shit, think again

It's up to you to prove the psychological damage loving parents would cause, not speculate based on assuming the current stereotypical set-up works well. It used to take a village to raise a child and arguably people were more well-adjusted back then

And that crap o yours about lacking a gender influence.. I don't see you trying to ban single mothers/fathers

Mouse · #5 2007-04-25, 18:08

I agree that we can only speculate on this issue as no proper research has been done into it.
I've already said that single mothers or fathers, if they're single through divorce, will probably share custody of the child so neither influence will be absent. If they're single through death then they'll probably have a partner to provide the influence.
And yes, there is the flaw to my argument that children in care have no role-model, other than the staff who probably don't give a shit... chink in the armour

Zinkovich · #6 2007-04-25, 18:09

Anyone who has studied sociology or psychology knows that in some monogamous homosexual relationships, one of the males decide to adopt a redefined familial role similar to that of the female partner in a heterosexual relationship. I'll have to get more on that paticular aspect of this discussion later.

Here's one of the studies I used on a previous paper I was required to write on gay issues that seems to suggest that harmful behavior is not the norm you'd think it would be for children of lesbian parents, from the American Psychological Association(before you question it's objectivity):

Quote:

The question of whether parental sexual orientation has an impact on human development has important implications for psychological theories and for legal policy. This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. different-sex parents), family and relationship variables, substance use, delinquency, and victimization of adolescents. Participants included 44 adolescents living with female same-sex couples and 44 adolescents living with different-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Analyses indicated that adolescents were functioning well and that their adjustment was not associated with family type. Adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported less delinquent behavior and substance use, suggesting that the quality of parent-adolescent relationships better predicts adolescent outcomes than does family type. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2006 APA, all rights reserved)

http://content.apa.org/journals/fam/20/3/526

For those of you who consider this not an issue, consider these statistics I found from the 2000 census:

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- Same-gender couples live in 99.3% of all US counties.
- Same-gender couples are raising children in at least 96% of all US counties.
- Nearly one quarter of all same-gender couples are raising children.
- Nationwide, 34.3% of lesbian couples are raising children, and 22.3% of gay male couples are raising children (compared with 45.6% of married heterosexual and 43.1% of unmarried heterosexual couples raising children).
- Vermont has the largest aggregation of same gender-couples (~1% of all households) followed by California, Washington, Massachusetts, and Oregon.
- Regionally, the South has the highest percentage of same-gender couples who are parents; 36.1% of lesbian couples and 23.9% of gay couples in the South are raising children.
- The second highest percentage is seen in the Midwest, where 34.7% of lesbian couples and 22.9% of gay couples are parenting children.
- In the West, 33.1% of lesbian couples and 21.1% of gay couples are parents.
- In the Northeast, 32.6% of lesbian couples and 21.7% of gay couples are raising children.
- The states with the highest percentages of lesbian couples raising children are Mississippi (43.8%), South Dakota and Utah (42.3% each), and Texas (40.9%).
- The states with the highest percentages of gay male couples raising children are Alaska (36%), South Dakota (33%), Mississippi (31%), and Idaho and Utah (30% each).
- Six percent of same-gender couples are raising children who have been adopted compared with 5.1% of heterosexual married couples and 2.6% of unmarried heterosexual couples.{dagger}
- Eight percent of same-gender parents are raising children with special health care needs, compared with 8.3% of heterosexual unmarried parents and 5.8% of heterosexual married parents.
- Of same-gender partners raising children, 41.1% have been together for 5 years or longer, whereas 19.9% of heterosexual unmarried couples have stayed together for that duration.

( Gathered indirectly from http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/censr-5.pdf )

As you can see, adoptive gay parents are a larger group than one might initially think. To the OP, I would ask this: would you really feel comfortable taking away all these potential homes based on your own intuition, rather than actual fact?

Edit: More studies on the impact of homosexual parenting on a child to come- I'm having difficulty linking to some of the studies I already have in a way you guys can view and confirm them in your minds, because you need an APA subscription to access them.

The_Rabbi · #7 2007-04-25, 18:14

I know too much about gays to think children need to be involved in their world in any way.

Can't really say gay adoption shouldn't be legal, but they should be subject to more scrutiny in the screening process.

Zinkovich · #8 2007-04-25, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rabbi View Post

I know too much about gays to think children need to be involved in their world in any way.

Can't really say gay adoption shouldn't be legal, but they should be subject to more scrutiny in the screening process.

Same-sex partnerships seem to have less of a chance of seperation than heterosexual marraiges, according to the census statistics I post above.

So if the length of the relationships aren't the issue, what is? What about the potential "worlds" of a stable homosexual household makes them different from any of the worlds that a child can be exposed to being raised in a heterosexual one?

And what bad "world" is there that doesn't exist outside of gay singles bars and the stereotypes and prejudices that lie within the minds of some heterosexuals?

I know you aren't trying to push for illegal gay adoption, but I would still like to understand where exactly you are coming from since you imply that you have a plethora of personally gathered knowledge about gays in general.

The_Rabbi · #9 2007-04-25, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinkovich View Post

Same-sex partnerships seem to have less of a chance of seperation than heterosexual marraiges, according to the census statistics I post above.

Simply because so few of them exist.

Most gays are far too busy being wildly promiscuous to be in a relationship. The ones that are of the mind for a serious relationship are bound to be more determined to make it work.

Contrast this with hetero life, where promiscuity is attempted by males, but largely quelled by females. More people are in relationships with dissimilar goals, it doesn't surprise me that more fail.

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So if the length of the relationships aren't the issue, what is? What about the potential "worlds" of a stable homosexual household makes them different from any of the worlds that a child can be exposed to being raised in a heterosexual one?

Doesn't matter how fem a gay man may be, he does not take the place of a woman. Men and women have different qualities, both of which are present ideally to aid in the development of the child. Your mother teaches you compassion, your father teaches you resolve, etc.

Obviously this is not present in all cases. But that is the ideal.

Quote:

And what bad "world" is there that doesn't exist outside of gay singles bars and the stereotypes and prejudices that lie within the minds of some heterosexuals?

I know you aren't trying to push for illegal gay adoption, but I would still like to understand where exactly you are coming from since you imply that you have a plethora of personally gathered knowledge about gays in general.

Where I'm coming from? Most gay guys are complete sluts(just like most hetero guys, only there's no women to keep it in check.) This may be a stereotype, but it's a damn true one.

And the bottom line is, nature intended for humans to reproduce by putting man and woman together, and seems to have intended for women to raise them, and men to protect them(if not nature itself, then human nature has adapted to this.) It is not wrong to acknowledge this.

Therefore, I simply feel that all efforts should be taken to adopt children to hetero couples. After you take care of those, if stable gay couples want to adopt(after strict screening to ensure that the house is going to be orgy-free when junior's home,) then I say have at it.

Zinkovich · #10 2007-04-25, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Rabbi View Post

Simply because so few of them exist.

Most gays are far too busy being wildly promiscuous to be in a relationship. The ones that are of the mind for a serious relationship are bound to be more determined to make it work.

Contrast this with hetero life, where promiscuity is attempted by males, but largely quelled by females. More people are in relationships with dissimilar goals, it doesn't surprise me that more fail.

I have statistics that show otherwise from the U.S. government.

Besides, in terms of rights, the size of the groups being positively or negatively effected should have no impact in a governmental system started on the basis of equality.

Quote:

Doesn't matter how fem a gay man may be, he does not take the place of a woman. Men and women have different qualities, both of which are present ideally to aid in the development of the child. Your mother teaches you compassion, your father teaches you resolve, etc.

Obviously this is not present in all cases. But that is the ideal.

Consider this resolution from the American Psychological Association, known for it's academic rigor and it's objectivity when reaching a resolution on sociological and psychological issues:

Quote:

Research Summary
Lesbian and Gay Parents
Many lesbians and gay men are parents. In the 2000 U. S. Census, 33% of female same-sex couple households and 22% of male same-sex couple households reported at least one child under the age of 18 living in the home. Despite the significant presence of at least 163,879 households headed by lesbian or gay parents in U.S. society, three major concerns about lesbian and gay parents are commonly voiced (Falk, 1994; Patterson, Fulcher & Wainright, 2002). These include concerns that lesbians and gay men are mentally ill, that lesbians are less maternal than heterosexual women, and that lesbians' and gay men's relationships with their sexual partners leave little time for their relationships with their children. In general, research has failed to provide a basis for any of these concerns (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). First, homosexuality is not a psychological disorder (Conger, 1975). Although exposure to prejudice and discrimination based on sexual orientation may cause acute distress (Mays & Cochran, 2001; Meyer, 2003), there is no reliable evidence that homosexual orientation per se impairs psychological functioning. Second, beliefs that lesbian and gay adults are not fit parents have no empirical foundation (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002). Lesbian and heterosexual women have not been found to differ markedly in their approaches to child rearing (Patterson, 2000; Tasker, 1999). Members of gay and lesbian couples with children have been found to divide the work involved in childcare evenly, and to be satisfied with their relationships with their partners (Patterson, 2000, 2004a). The results of some studies suggest that lesbian mothers' and gay fathers' parenting skills may be superior to those of matched heterosexual parents. There is no scientific basis for concluding that lesbian mothers or gay fathers are unfit parents on the basis of their sexual orientation (Armesto, 2002; Patterson, 2000; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). On the contrary, results of research suggest that lesbian and gay parents are as likely as heterosexual parents to provide supportive and healthy environments for their children.
Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents
As the social visibility and legal status of lesbian and gay parents has increased, three major concerns about the influence of lesbian and gay parents on children have been often voiced (Falk, 1994; Patterson, Fulcher & Wainright, 2002). One is that the children of lesbian and gay parents will experience more difficulties in the area of sexual identity than children of heterosexual parents. For instance, one such concern is that children brought up by lesbian mothers or gay fathers will show disturbances in gender identity and/or in gender role behavior. A second category of concerns involves aspects of children's personal development other than sexual identity. For example, some observers have expressed fears that children in the custody of gay or lesbian parents would be more vulnerable to mental breakdown, would exhibit more adjustment difficulties and behavior problems, or would be less psychologically healthy than other children. A third category of concerns is that children of lesbian and gay parents will experience difficulty in social relationships. For example, some observers have expressed concern that children living with lesbian mothers or gay fathers will be stigmatized, teased, or otherwise victimized by peers. Another common fear is that children living with gay or lesbian parents will be more likely to be sexually abused by the parent or by the parent's friends or acquaintances.
Results of social science research have failed to confirm any of these concerns about children of lesbian and gay parents (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Tasker, 1999). Research suggests that sexual identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same ways among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents (Patterson, 2004a). Studies of other aspects of personal development (including personality, self-concept, and conduct) similarly reveal few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children
of heterosexual parents (Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999). However, few data regarding these concerns are available for children of gay fathers (Patterson, 2004b). Evidence also suggests that children of lesbian and gay parents have normal social relationships with peers and adults (Patterson, 2000, 2004a; Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999; Tasker & Golombok, 1997). The picture that emerges from research is one of general engagement in social life with peers, parents, family members, and friends. Fears about children of lesbian or gay parents being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no scientific support. Overall, results of research suggest that the development, adjustment, and well-being of children with lesbian and gay parents do not differ markedly from that of children with heterosexual parents.

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/parentschildren.pdf

The simple fact of the matter is that there is no proven link between developmental issues in children to homosexual parents, nor proof of extreme forms of ostracization on the part of peers.

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Where I'm coming from? Most gay guys are complete sluts(just like most hetero guys, only there's no women to keep it in check.) This may be a stereotype, but it's a damn true one.

Perhaps in your region or by your perspective. Where do you live, and where do you spend the majority of your time? Have the gay men you met been single? Do you live near a "club strip"?

If so, the issues you saw might have had a regional source and should be considered as a regional thing to consider in terms of application rather than a countrywide one. For example, in Atlanta you would find many homosexuals of the sort you are referring to- but down in Florida where I live? Nope, sorry, they're just the loud minority down here.

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And the bottom line is, nature intended for humans to reproduce by putting man and woman together, and seems to have intended for women to raise them, and men to protect them(if not nature itself, then human nature has adapted to this.) It is not wrong to acknowledge this.

Nature develops through mechanisms. It does not have intentions, nor is it a person or legitimate support for ethical issues in a debate- except in specialized contexts.

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Therefore, I simply feel that all efforts should be taken to adopt children to hetero couples. After you take care of those, if stable gay couples want to adopt(after strict screening to ensure that the house is going to be orgy-free when junior's home,) then I say have at it.

If you really want to compare useless anecdotes, I have yet to meet a homosexual in a monogamous relationship who holds orgies in his household. I sure as hell don't hold any in mine- I think you're just drawing stereotypes from watching too many shows like "Queer as Folk". I also think that anyone who lives such a lifestyle is fairly unlikely to adopt a child as it would put a damper on his activities.

Edit: If you want, I can individually post all of the studies that contradict your view of the homosexual lifestyle mentioned in the APA's resolution for your inspection. It will take me a while to find them all, though, so you must give me time to gather all the links together and to bring in some real statistics and quotes and such.

Far too many people don't give homosexuals a chance to speak for themselves as a demographic rather than a media-inspired stereotype. At least give me a chance to show you just how much of a unfair thing it is for you to restrict those of us who could provide stable households based on the behavior of the more promiscuous of us homosexual males.