i've been told that silver nitrate can be used as a substitute for rp. was told that not as much sn was used in the batch as rp. does anyone know if there is any truth to what i was told?

Silver nitrate is good for killing werewolves, but I don't think it is a substitute for RP, nope.

Well now, before one can say that it doesnt work one must ask, has anyone tried using silver nitrate to see if it does or doesnt work.

sometimes one dont have to try somethin to know it wont work.

well then I gather you have tried using silver nitrate instead of rp?

red,

since you know so goddam much ......how come your in here asking your stupid dam questions? i would think somebody who knows fuck-all wouldnt make a complete asshole out of himself every time he types on his keys

Well said Blue!

you dont need to try something to tell that it wont work dumbass. all you have to do is LEARN BASIC CHEMISTRY!!!! break it down to the elements and find out what would happen. you dont need to actually try it. you are speaking like a true sutt. shit if you are just going to start trying shit to use instead of RP you could try a whole lot of things. Try to substitute the rp with some Mountain Dew, or maybe with some frog eyes. who knows it might work right? might as well keep being stupid and trying shit like that instead of investing some time to learn basic chemistry.

phosphorUS acid is the only "rp substitute" I can think of for regenerating HI

Hi can be produced using several methods--many unheard of in this group but silver nitrate is certainly not one of them

Just because other alternatives aren't spoken of doesn't mean they're unknown.

Dan46, you are absolutely right! the reaction desired can be induced in several ways, there's the birch method, there’s the RP/I2 rxn. there’s the H3PO3 and H3PO2 rxn's, there's the electrolytic synthesis and there's also a few different ways to product HI, which is the "main" ingredient in any reaction (other than birch or electrolytics), other than using the ingredients just posted

Now SWID is by no means the smartest or most learned individual using this forum and his education continues on a daily basics so, please, if there are other ways of producing the desired reaction than please enlighten us so we may all share in your knowledge.

quote:any truth to what i was told?

Negative as you know by now. This thread is hereby locked-down to forsake the deconsctructive energies which I aim to re-direct to a positive and constructive entity. Not saying I'll make it there, but am gonna give it a shot.



Because Jam is your Meth'olated-Moderating-Man-on-a-mission!! <A HREF="http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch16.gif">http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch16.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch16.gif" width="90" height="90)</A>



Too much fucking bullshit has gone on man and I'm uncertain as of yet as to the WHY, but I'll soon find out and when I do I'll be able to focus on the culprits here and have them dealt with accordingly-my way too man!! If you haven't already kind of noticed I'm since the New Year, trying to fairly Moderate this place.

I ain't out to flame Neversleepy nor am I out to perpetuate this indiscretion with another member here. Fuck it man. I ain't never been good at carrying on in an ongoing negative contrivercial dialogues.



Jam. <A HREF="http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch19.gif">http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch19.gif" width="90" height="90 (http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch19.gif" width="90" height="90)</A>

Well for the sake of knowledge is power and perhaps covering subject matter unknown to the Board Members........I'm going to let this ride on open so as to see if Dan46 has something we wouldn't dare not want!!

I'm curious as well man.





Jam.

quote:

i've been told that silver nitrate can be used as a substitute for rp



No, it cannot. There is no reaction that produces HI using AgNO3 (lunar cuastic) and I2 or any of it's salts, nor can it be used to substitute rp. Unless your a photogropher, AgNO3 is useless for that purpose. However, you should find a small privately owned photographic supply house in your area. Not like a small camera shop in the mall or some shit, but an actually store dedicated to photogrophy as a whole. Don't even bother trying to order from Kodak or any big namer's like that, they sell pretty much all premade solutions. A small home town shop is more for the hobbyist/home tinkerer.

Walk in there and tell them you are doing a project for your photogrophy class, or that your just trying to start a new hobby and your gonna start by making your own pinhole camera, using home made photosensitive index cards. Explain how you already have compositions for developers and stop baths worked out, and you tried using silver bromide and chloride salts and wanted to try out some IODIDE salts. Also slip in a complaint how you accidentally knocked your bottle of silver nitrate into the sink with your elbow or something.

VIOLA! Now you have them all buttered up and ready to sell you a plethora of usefull salts and organic intermediates with no hassles or suspicion at all.

Goddamnit what I'm trying to say is for the hydrogen iodide people out there, say all of the above. Then ask for some AgNO3 (just to make it seem less suspicious, and make you appear more sincere). Since you rambled on about wanting to test iodide photonegatives, also mention that you want a few hundred grams of whatever iodide salt they have on hand, which'll more than likely be KI (NaI works just the same). Some places pratically give it out by the pound. See in photography, halogen salts mainly the bromides and iodides of silver are suspended in a gelatin, and put on a plastic sheets. This is your basic photonegative. Index cards and be impregnated with AgI, making a basic photonegative for your home built pin hole cameras. Solutions of KI and AgNO3 are mixed, in which AgI precipitates, and the KNO3 remains in solution. Gelatin is made and AgI mixed in to for a suspension that can be used to coat an index card.

Plus you can do all kinds of cool stuff with the AgNO3. Ever mix a solution of AgNO3 and drop a penny in it? Instant silver metal. Pretty cool just when your bored. Plus photogrophy is actually pretty neat, it's amazing to think you can make a photograph using a couple of basic salts, a box with a hole in it, and an index card.

Also, for the real chemists out there, you can get all kinds of organic intermediates that are generally used in developing solutions. Like p-aminophenol (p-hydroxyaniline) or hydroquinone. As well as all kinds of salts including cyanides and chromates. A whole lot of shit used in chemistry is very useful for all kinds of other shit to. It's funny to, cause on a few of SWIMS bottles including the hydroquinone have "For laboratory use only, not intended for drug use" written on them.

quote:

and there's also a few different ways to product HI



Thats right. HI isn't the problem. It's

a no brainer to synthesize, and as stated above iodide salts are easy as hell to acquire. Either phosphoric oxide (P2O5) or phosphoric acid (H3PO4) are non-watched non-suspicious and very abundant and cheap chemicals. Phosphoric acid is said to be one of the most abundant acid on earth besides sulfuric acid. H3PO4 is a great acid to use to generate HI. You can do it straight from the KI to, no conversion to I2.

1H3PO4 + 3KI-----&gt;3HI + 1K3PO4

P2O5 is just the anhydride phosphoric acid. Add water to make it H3PO4.

1P2O5 + 3H2O----&gt;2H3PO4

Aqueous solution of KI and H3PO4 is refluxed, then the 57% HI is distilled out of the mix.

Another method to generate HI is from Na2SO3. The only problem with that is your gonna need some type of phosphorus compound present during distillation, or very little HI acid will come over, due to HI reducing the formed sulfate ions. It would also probably be a good idea to set it up so you distill out any formed 57% HI as it's formed. Otherwise you end up with a boiling iodine suspension and some hydrogen gas.



I think a lot of people misunderstand the reason why phosphorus is used in HI reductions. HI reductions (besides your dry rp/I2 alchemy) in chemistry are generally done using 57% HI thats either purchased or synthesized, either way it wasn't made using phosphorus.

Yes in a dry rp/I2 synthesis, or a reflux without pre-made HI utilizes phosphorus to produce the needed HI, the original and main purpose for phosphorus is to keep the HI stable during storage and usage (namely reductions). Phosphorus is considered a recylant. HI is unstable, and just boiling HI can turn it into hydrogen and iodine in no time. A bottle of HI stored without any phosphorus to stabilize it eventually breaks down.

In the case of meth synthesis, the reaction between iodoephedrine and HI is slowed considerably if an abundance of its byproducts are present. This is a cheap ass way of giving an idea of what's called The Law Of Mass Action. I2 is a byproduct of the said reaction. Plus you have to deal with any breakdown of HI. Phosphorus compounds can take remove both I2 and H2O from a said reaction. As you know the formed PI3 reacts with water giving HI and phosphorous acid. Plus the phosphorous acid reacts with I2 and water also producing HI and phosphoric acid. Thus, the byproduct I2 is removed, as well as any from degraded HI. Then you have the removal of water at the same time, which effectively keeps the concentration of HI high. All major byproducts are converted back into more reducing agent. This is why the reaction will go to completion (iodoephedrine to meth).

Originally white/yellow phosphorus was used (P4) in reductions as the recyclant. But when red form (P) was discovered it took over. Hypophosphorous and phosphorus acids can both be used as recyclants as well. Generally your commercially available bottles of HI acid use a little hypo to stabilize it for storage.

[This message has been edited by madchemist (edited 01-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by madchemist (edited 01-17-2004).]

Oh yeah

quote:

if there are other ways of producing the desired reaction than please enlighten us so we may all share in your knowledge.



There are a ton of ways to reduce a benzylic alcohol. Especially one like pseudo. Besides the ones already mentioned in this thread (birch, HI, electrolytic), you also have a myriad of other reductions to choose from, pretty much all utilizing an ester of the alcohol.

Lets ponder this for a minute or two.

Lets see....if you can acquire palladium, either by buying it (very expensive) or by scavanging it tediously from things like catalytic converters and such, there are a few different hydrogenations to choose from.

Sulfate or perchlorate esters are best used for direct hydrogenation, and are typically done in alcohol. When using pressurized hydrogen, pseudo can be dissolved in the alcohol, with some sulfuric or perchloric acid added. This is your most basic meth synthesis. Dissolving the precursor in ethanol, adding some H2SO4, the catalyst and pressurize with hydrogen. Rig up something to shake the mutherfucker and in a couple hours you can have high ass yeilds of very clean methamphetamine (it's a clean reaction).

To avoid using pressure and hydrogen gas, you can reflux an ester (sulfate or acetyl esters easiest and cheapest to make) in glacial acetic acid with the catalyst and ammonium formate.

An alternative to using rp in HI reductions is by utilizing LAH. One could spend an afternoon whipping up a few liters of HI which has a lot of potential no matter which route you take. But when you've obatined a bottle of LAH you can say fuck scraping the matches. Literature at rhodiums for the older school HI reductions say to treat the freebase in ether with LAH to reduce any iodoephedrine left over. You can just reflux pseudo in excess of 57%HI for 5 or 6 hours, which should be enough to make sure it's all converted to iodoephedrine. Basify and steam distill, and extract the distillate with xylene. Dry the xylene as if your life depended on it, then distill it all off. Then add dry ether and use LAH to reduce all the iodoephedrine to meth. And that would ensure full completion, not geuss work on whether or not you have enough HI, or whether you need to reflux another 12 hours or so. Plus it would be quicker. SWIM wonders how well LAH would be at reducing other esters. Also SWIM wonders if cheaper/easier to get and safer hydrides can be used like NaBH4. That would be awesome.

Maybe one could even just throw KI, H3PO4, and psuedo all together for a nice reflux, the HI produced insitu, and iodo intermediate formed. That would be great.

I'm not saying that any of these suggested methods are cheaper or easier, it all depends on what you have access to.

quote:Originally posted by RedFoss4us:

Well now, before one can say that it doesnt work one must ask, has anyone tried using silver nitrate to see if it does or doesnt work.



well now, how bout this SWIM has heard that trimming your fingernails with a chainsaw will make them grow back faster. what do you think? do you have to try it to know it wont work? well then nuff fuckin said.

I trimmed one of my fingernails with a chainsaw once, and that sucker never grew back!

Gee Madchemist, ou certainly left no stone unturned, but yopu didn't give 46 a chance to answer that question. Oh well

quote:Originally posted by DarkSky:

Gee Madchemist, ou certainly left no stone unturned, but yopu didn't give 46 a chance to answer that question. Oh well

Swim sees an issue that could arise with the 46 thing. We have two members with 46 in their name. Swim is posting this mainly for the noobs(no disrespect intended) so things are kept straight. Swim has no idea who Dan46 is, but does know our reg 46Method.

Just covering your back bro knew you wouldn't mind.

Princess

Thanks Princess and, for the record, I have no issues with anyone, other than lazy A.Holes who come to this forum and refuse to do research on their own! 46Method is a respected member of this community whom I have much respect for, my use of 46 was somewhat loose and therefore I apologize for not being more specific. My comment was directed to dan46.

Also I would like to thank madchemist for his detailed and highly informative write-up. SWID was particularly interested in the information you provided on palladium and is looking forward to trying this technique in the future. SWID figures it’s best to learn as much about the reduction process and the many different ways you can “skin a cat”. Never know when you will need this information because the supply of RP, H3PO3, H3PO2 and H3PO4 (to mention a few of the key elements) is completely dried up by our friendly, Helpful and cooperative government.

SWID would also like to experiment with the electrolysis process, this method of reduction reminds SWID of the Birch process, only because of the raw power that’s seen in the main reduction/conversion element. SWID thinks he needs to do much more research before he attempts this process. The power necessary for this conversion would NOT readily be available at ones home and would require a much higher power supply or the use of a step-up transformer in order to achieve ones ends. SWID does think he will attempt the palladium process in the future but first (Yep, you guessed it) more research is necessary on the part of SWID, lol.



[This message has been edited by DarkSky (edited 01-17-2004).]

thanks for the help evrybody, especially to you, mad chemist, you have been most helpful.

And Jam, thanks for not locking this thread when you were first inclined to do so. It ended up being a very informative and very usefull thread, IMHO.

D.S.

Swim knew what you meant. Just speaking up in the name of a good Bro and the family plan.

We who play together, stay together.

Besides didn't know you was a noob. LOL

Princess

hey all,

about using Hypophosphorus and phosphorus acids:

1. what are the ratios for a synth? (I2/pseudo/acids)

2. are there any increased pressures SWIM should b concerned with when using these acids? (braided condenser hose as opposed to vinyl?)

3. how well watched are the two alternative acids? and in what amounts?

thanx in advance. ( MBRP, it's so tedious!)

Hypo is a List I a_a.

Phos-acid is unlisted.

Braided hose would be good!!

Jam.

thanx, Jam,

so both acids work?, if so, SWIM is sure the ever helpful Jam would graciously elaborate on the ratios involved (not the same as RP, right?)

1/1.5/1

E/I/H3PO3



Note:1.5 here refers to a dry I2. You want that I2 dry as a bone in order to properly initiate the pseudo and it to be blended-immacualte and thus a surface area ready for the H3PO3 to jump-in and join the threesome.

H3PO2=Hypophosphorus acid

H3PO3=Phosphorus acid

H3PO4=Phosphoric acid

You may know this a_a soin case you didn't I put it here...H3PO3 is quicker to type than Phosphorus acid hehe...

There is a right way and a wrong way to do this dance. There ain't no grey areas really.

Why don't you go to Wet Dreams a_a and PM me?!

If you do I'll tell you why I asked.

Jam.

yeah Jam,

SWIM has been meaning to reg at WD but has been putting it off. SWIM can only assume the crappiness of the totse threads is due to a mass migration to WD!

SWIM is gonna get on it. thanx

whoops, SWIM lost the url for WD, any help?

http://www.wetdreams.ws

[This message has been edited by Jamiroquai (edited 01-18-2004).]

dang it! SWIM can't get past the privacy statement! tried everything: turning off web washer prog., enabling java, accecpt all cookies. nothing!

how the heck does SWIM reg at WD?

aa

Try www.wetdreams.ws/forum/default (http://www.wetdreams.ws/forum/default)

Works for swim, but she has hers set

auto fav. now. lol

Princess



[This message has been edited by acidmelt (edited 01-19-2004).]

aww, shucks Jam, u big softie, thanx for the props! you've been very helpful and SWIM appreciates it.

SWIM has had some of the alt. acids info u posted awhile back but still had some questions. SWIM seems to remember finding another source other than the one (thanx) u just posted; will search pc for it(very cluttered of late)

the one thing that SWIM has misgivings about is the info he has to divulge to b able to do the mail order thing (SWIM really needs a P.O. box). SWIM shit a brick over the two pt.s of iodine tinc. that come by UPS to SWIM's ficticious ranch every so often.

SWIM comes to totse to share and learn, SWIM doesn't have time for inane shouting matches so, avoids those threads like a plague, glad u noticed, Jam.

Princess, tried the url, "not found", thanx anyway.

Well the thing here a_a to bare in mind is H3PO3 is unlisted. What this means is it is not tracked or watched. Specific records are not kept. I only say this because I know first hand. This source I gave you is nothing to fear. Whcih is why I gave it to you. It is my personal source for which I've never posted all along until today.

It is verifiably straight-up.

But Jam doesn't wish to push another out of their comfort zone so all the same you do what you feel is best.

P.O. Boxes are not applicable when hazardous chems are involved though.

At any rate man, it's all good.

Jam.

a_a

Sorry in the beginning that was the only way swim was able to bring it up. Just tried www.wetdreams.ws (http://www.wetdreams.ws) and the disclosure popped rightup. Hmmmm not a clue.

Princess

Amine, listen to Jam, he won't steer you wrong. Bill happened to catch Jam's post months ago and fortunately saved the info.

The time and results are unbelievable! Have had excellent results until I lost my Japan

drier/TCE cleaning process this week which

Jam and WR came to the rescue. These guys amaze me with the knowledge they have.

Follow directions to the "T" and all will turn out well. Peace

quote:Originally posted by BlueCollarTweeker:

red,

since you know so goddam much ......how come your in here asking your stupid dam questions? i would think somebody who knows fuck-all wouldnt make a complete asshole out of himself every time he types on his keys

First of all it wasn't me that was asking the stupid damn question to begin with i was just making an observation and stating my opinion. Second of all, I never claimed or claim to be a "know fuck-all". Speaking of making an asshole out of himself everytime he types, please explain what a know fuck-all is and how does one make and asshole out of ones self. While I'm at it I'll just reply to the rest of you mean poeple who replied to my posts and tried to make me look like jackass. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, DID YOU FORGET WHERE YOU PUT YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. I mean like gawd, dont take everything so seriously, have you forgot that the reason we do this is for fun. there is no reason to get all anal because i wrote some stupid shit. ha ha ha ha. I know enough to do what i need to do and get it done so I can be happy. I'm not a chemist so naturally it would be expected that i dont know anything about it that is why I am here, so I can learn a few things from all the self proclaimed experts that have been here since jesus christ was a kid.

I'd like to retract some of the previous post due to the fact that it could cause me to put my foot in my mouth. I can handle though, stuff it in there good.

quote:Originally posted by RedFoss4us:

First of all it wasn't me that was asking the stupid damn question to begin with i was just making an observation and stating my opinion. Second of all, I never claimed or claim to be a "know fuck-all". Speaking of making an asshole out of himself everytime he types, please explain what a know fuck-all is and how does one make and asshole out of ones self. While I'm at it I'll just reply to the rest of you mean poeple who replied to my posts and tried to make me look like jackass. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE, DID YOU FORGET WHERE YOU PUT YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. I mean like gawd, dont take everything so seriously, have you forgot that the reason we do this is for fun. there is no reason to get all anal because i wrote some stupid shit. ha ha ha ha. I know enough to do what i need to do and get it done so I can be happy. I'm not a chemist so naturally it would be expected that i dont know anything about it that is why I am here, so I can learn a few things from all the self proclaimed experts that have been here since jesus christ was a kid.

yeah Jam, SWIM remembered the hazmat P.O. problem afterwards.

SWIM will try the source u posted (thanx), am awaiting catalog.

ya' know, between Wicked's TCE/JD and Jam's phos, it's like "new improved, instant, makes it's own gravy".

Absolutely, Amine! It doesn't get any better than this!!

I was told I was banned--but method46 is not me and i have been dan46 for years on another related board as well as here for some time- so.....



[This message has been edited by dan46 (edited 01-26-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by amine_assimilator:



yeah Jam,

SWIM has been meaning to reg at WD but has been putting it off. SWIM can only assume the crappiness of the totse threads is due to a mass migration to WD!

SWIM is gonna get on it. thanx

its just a matter of time before wd is flooded with fools, but then again where all fools..lol j/k