SWID has a universal CFC certification and can purchase any and all Refrigerant legally. Now his question is just how regulated is Anhydrous Ammonia (R717). What he's asking... is it watched like a class I or II chemical. Even though SWID is licensed to purchase this material he has never had the need for this refrigerant.

Now understand this SWID has no intention of purchasing this material at this time, not until he masters the RP/I2 rxn but he does plan to experiment with the birch method at some point in time and would like to know of any obstacles or regulations surronding this material

Dude don't lie!!

I fail to believe you any reason why I should not?!

Folks this dude is a "poser" and SHOULD KNOW any person of his alleged certification SHOULD KNOW what to do!!



I fuckin' hate liars!!

Just exactly what part dont you believe...that SWID has a CFC certification, that SWID has never had reason to buy R717 before or that SWID has no intention of buying R717 at this time?

And SWID didnt ask for someone to believe him, all he asked for was an answer to his question...dont really care if you believe him or not...lol

Jam, its obvious you dont have a clue what a universal CFC certification entails. There are 3 levels involved to the certification, with Ammonia being the 3rd level. Most in the refrigeration trade NEVER have occasion to work with Ammonia, it is only used in extreme equipment where super low temps are required and is extremely dangerous. Most involved in the traqde only work with the low end refrigerants, the first level, such as R22, R407, R12 (which is outdated now).

Having a universal certification only means SWID is trained and licensed to buy said material, not the he has ever had occasion to work with this material

Tell me, are you always so paranoid?

Well, looks like Jam has done it agian with the Attitude! Why dont you just answer the mans question instead of calling him a lier? UNBELIVABLE!!

Dark asked a legitimate question and Jam, from a country that doesnt have a cfc certification program, tries to make the man out a lier. Now its obvious that he cant answer the question since hes not from the USA and has no knowledge of the answer but why in the world does he try to make it so no one will answer his question?

Dark, I wish I knew the answer to your question so I could help you...sorry

OH yes, I fully expect to get flamed for this reply but perhaps those that flame me should flame their beloved Mr Attitude, Jam! What a fucking IDIOT!

Hey, Dark sky. Bill has a universal tech license also. If and when you purchase R717,

someone who works with your company such as

represntative from the company who you are doing the work for has to fill a lenghty statement from the EPA and a notarized state-ment from the DEA as to the nature of the purchase. Generally, large companies bypass the local wholesale outlets and ship the ammonia direct in 125 lb. cylinders in bulk amounts. Should the need occur for extra, it

can be ordered from locals, but most wholesalers don't have R717 on hand due to the nature of making the good stuff. Every store would be broken into around the country

Most companies that use it for their refrigeration keep it on their premises in large storage or in 125lb. cylinders. I frequent wholesalers locally and have yet to see very little R717. Like you said 22, 502, 12 etc.

my votes with jam

the mans a stretcher

Thanks Bill, glad to see that someone here is capable of giving a straight, brass facts answer! Considering what you told me I guess SWID will stick with RP/I2 rxn's. Last think he needs is DEA statments to fill out.

You the man Stillbill!!

darksky itz not watched it you have a legal right to have it so man go for it...but if i was you i would jus make it from ammonia nitrate fertilizer its cleaner than tank annie sooo

The man is asking a legitimate question. Upon

receiving your Universal (Class IV) Recovery

license, the first question out of your mouth

is where can I purchase ammonia. DUH!!!

So you guys give it a break, he's asking a

perfectly legitimate ? about a subject a lot of Universal Techs would want to know, but were afraid to ask. Shit, it took me a long time before a friend who works in the HVAC

wholesale business shed light on the subject!

Btw, who's voting for what? And quit the childish name callin, labeling someone when you don't even know them is rude!!

quote:Originally posted by DarkSky:

SWID has a universal CFC certification and can purchase any and all Refrigerant legally. Now his question is just how regulated is Anhydrous Ammonia (R717). What he's asking... is it watched like a class I or II chemical. Even though SWID is licensed to purchase this material he has never had the need for this refrigerant.

Now understand this SWID has no intention of purchasing this material at this time, not until he masters the RP/I2 rxn but he does plan to experiment with the birch method at some point in time and would like to know of any obstacles or regulations surronding this material

Think about it!swim isnt tryin to bee a smart arse but if it wasnt watched or regulated then anybody could just go get some anny.Just do some more reading and you should easily find all your answers.Make two nanos and call me in the morning.

[This message has been edited by the meth god (edited 11-16-2003).]

Yes, it's watched and regulated as spoken above, but it can be purchased in the HVAC industry only by licensed individuals such as Sky. With this certification, he can purchase any refrigerant on the market. If the need occur, he can order it from any wholesaler with proper certification, load the annie in the truck and be gone to work site. If he decides to stop on the way to work site, that's a different story! It's done everyday of the year, especially around very large grocery companies and produce that need walk-in coolers and walk-in freezers. I do more A/C than refrigeration

so the need for me to obtain does not occur!

Thanks again Bill! Its amazing how many people have posted a reply to this post with a hint of negativity while having no clue what-so-ever as to what is actually entailed with having a CFC certification. Thank goodness that there are those like you who have are capable of replying with a serious, informed response.

Stillbill, you still the MAN!

bill

name calling is an art form ive perfected and have no intention of stopping,,rarely is it directed at the innocent

and voting is the legal right of all over 18

now is there anything further you wish to comment on about my behaviour

Kirby, don't be so petty, man. I believe Greenhorn said it best and I quote "Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance". If you had been someone new to this forum, would you like someone to flame your ass or call you a stretcher. I don't think so! Like I've heard you say many times, show some respect. You take up for your friends from Australia, the door swings both ways. Darksky is no exception! Peace

well SWIM has a fuckin comment here, 1st of all, in darks defense.... any questions such as the one he posted can and should at times be laced with deception as long as the question remains clear. that way theres just enough smoke and deception for the poster to stand behind yet get an answer to his question. what difference does it make if hes a refrig. tech. or the fuckin pope, or fuckin batman? 99.9% of SWIM`s posts are answering questions not asking them but if i had questions i would quite possibly ask in the way he did, perhaps wording truth to seem like lies and vice versa. bottom line is the question is clear, answer the fuckin question. thats what we do here, not concern ourselves with ones profession, or where he may be from. jam lighten up dude, did someone piss in your wheaties or you on the downhill side of a jag? and kirby i like you and all make no mistake about it bud. but sometimes you come off with a holier than thou attitude to some of the posters. some deserve it some beg for it but a few are unwarrented and border on annoying. from one old dog to another bud just the way i see it and i call it the way i see it, no sugar coating no bullshit just the way i see it.

and yeah before you ask, SWIM is doin the old two hitter gotta goddamn quit her. dont change the way SWIM feels tho about this just the fact i have taken the time to say my piece on this subject.to call the man an outright liar with no proof other than your perception of his post leaves a sour taste in my mouth. not to mention the fact that you should always leave yourself an avenue of direction to backstep such an assertion just in case you maybe fuckin wrong. a wise man once said ... well fuck that wiseman i forget what he said.

wicked

i respect your words and especially your opinion..i stand corrected

bill;

Petty;

trivial

trifling

narrow minded

mean

minor or subordinate in rank

which meaning were you using when you used petty to describe me bill

as for dark sky;

if the man is who he says he is,,

then at his fingertips lies far better references than this forum to access the data he requests..

one gets sick of people coming into this forum claiming to be what there not

as for australians

im one of the most harshest judges of there words and comments and do not hesitate to give shit when its due,,,but yes,,,im fiercely loyal to australians,,,as i am with yanks,,i feel that australia and america has a bond that is not equalled by any other nation

bill

do you often feel the need to comment on my words

or do you feel that there none of your fucking business and you should keep your nose out of what isnt directed at you

As for petty, all of the above after your last remark! Like WR said, call em as I see em. Calm down under, little man!!!

slims sista shut the fuck up lol you contribute nothing here and have no fuckin clue what you are flappin your lips about. ever jump in a fight between two brothers or good friends and find they 4get there problem and then they kick your ass? lol retarded ho.

SWIM has heard before that the large fish processors and crab boats, shrimp boats, fishing boats that ply the bering sea and the waters of alaska have such systems that use this 717 refrigerant. is that true? SWIM also thought that annie wasnt used here for much of anything but has recently learned that uno-cal operates one of the largest anhydrous ammonia plants in north america in kenai alaska. SWIM thinks that maybe the fishing fleet thing is true since its located in kenai which is right on the ocean. couple hundred miles south of SWIM. maybe SWIM and his dogs will take a driveabout and see what we can see. SWIM likes to broaden his horizons. this old dog learns new tricks quite readily lol.

Wicked it is true, some fishing boats do have a R717 system. R717 is used when very low temperatures are required. Freezing does not improve quality but only slows or stabilizes the spoilage. Bacterial, enzymatic and chemical actions continue after freezing at temperatures above -30°C. Some chemical reactions, such as fats becoming rancid, continue even below -30°C. Seafood with high fat content should be kept at -40° to -60°C, if held for long periods of time. For fresh product, delays of a few hours can shorten the shelf life by several days. The refrigerant is Freon R22 except for the RAW system which is Ammonia R717

M/V "ATLANTIC DAWN" is one such ship which uses a R717 system. This ship employes The horizontal type alloyed flat board freezing unit, DB series, applicable for frozen process to all catches by fishing boats, marine products, poulty, vegetables and other foodstuffs in small packages. The series of units can be generally diviced into three groups: DBC Model for using on fishing boats, DB Model for ordinay frozen processing of fishes and DBY Model for frozen work that requires to be frozen in an even form (when the DBY Model of the unit is applied, the frozen work shall be under a pressure of 0.8 kg/square cm). This unit uses R717, Im sure there are many others

Stillbill... you can't see him so why call Kirby a little man now you are making stuff up, you have already taken his bait..

As i was told previously ..we are in this together .. we've let off some steam now lets get back to the subject at hand ..

quote:Originally posted by Spook:

Stillbill... you can't see him so why call Kirby a little man now you are making stuff up, you have already taken his bait..

As i was told previously ..we are in this together .. we've let off some steam now lets get back to the subject at hand ..

yep back to the task at hand. kirby, bill back to your pens lol, let peace return to methania and all methanians that live there. dont make me confiscate your pipes hahahahaha

quote:Originally posted by Wicked_Rain:

"let peace return to methania and all methanians that live there. dont make me confiscate your pipes hahahahaha"

methania,

.....hahahahahahhahhahahaha

no wicked,,,peace be fucked,,,what i said was not directed at bill,,,he had no right to butt in,,i stand by my words and what i said

it is so easy for people on here to be the tough guy

if these people wish to ridicule me,,,and what i say,,and how i say it,,,,then so be it...

what we in australia feel is normal language for every day use,,,is termed as foul mouthed in america,,so your welcome to your opinions...

as far as being a little man goes,,,

im 6ft4 and over 220 pounds,,,so those feeble words have no meaning to me

but,,,if you people wish for me to leave this forum and you feel far better qualified to advise others on what to do and how...

The majority have only to say "leave"!!

Dark sky,

that last post of yours was most informative,,

if you have any further knowledge on where and why anhydrous is used in the present day it would be most appreciatted!!!

it would also be fully understood if you told me to jam my question up my arse..

thanks

wicked

those boats would have to be dry docked after every season and be fully refitted,,,

there refrig systems would be drained,,work done on them,,and then refilled,,or refilled immediately prior to the season commencing,,,

so,,they either have 34kilo tanks they take onboard to hook up and refill the system,,or have a mother tank on dry dock site which they have long connector hoses from tank to ship

im presuming theyd have home port as anchorage or nome,,and wouldnt have suffered a lot of theft yet

kirby your alright with me, no worries. and hell no no one wants you to leave anywhere. chill out my man its all good and carry on as normal. i never took offense personaly to anything you say. i find you amusing and a breath of fresh air. in my earlier post i was simply stating how others must feel that were new here. besides if you leave here i will simply follow you around and annoy the hell out of you just cuz thats the kind of guy i am. take care my brother from another mother.

wicked

theres only you and i left from the old crew,,

and i wasnt even a part of that crew,,

i came later,,

all the regulars are gone,,

one wonders why,,

thank you for the vote,,

but the forums majority may feel differently,,

and most are a different brand of man,,

and ill guarantee they havent had the hard knocks it takes to judge either you or i

At the battle of maximes in 1665 count francois duc de rouchfoucauld said to his cousin who was the prince and whom had just finished defining courage to his men,,, this prince had never entered the field of battle, only sat on horse back and directed his troops

the count stated

one cannot answer for his courage when he has never been in danger!!!

What the hell's going on in here?? Who's leaving? Nobody's going anywhere!! *locking doors* I don't know about anyone else, but Switrd has been flamed...shit, lots of times. I too have gone on rampages and fired people up for the smallest reasons. Ask green about our first encounter....hahah Yeah I was an ass/arsehole to a grand extreme. That's sort of like the initiation here on totse. We can't beat the shit out of each other... so thats the next best thing. We've all done it...so lets just get over it. Kirby is one of my favorites here. I look forward to his arsekickin lets thin the herd type of mentality. Hey, if everyone that ever set foot in this forum was allowed to stay flame free....hell we'd be crawling with sutts, poops, and postmans.

As a matter of fact this place is already starting to smell of dirty diapers. Acidmelt mentioned it, And I too have gotten a whiff of it. Let people be who they are. I often regret saying something to someone and try and make good with 'em later. Who knows, maybe kirby does the same thing

What I'm trying to say.... don't go anywhere kirby. We need a good arsekicker down under.

Could u pronounce that count's name fur me?

They should have called him francis or better yet call him frank. the rest of that shit is to hard. spend all day tryin to call his name to come to supper

Swims In-Laws have a seafood processing plant and all of the walk-in/drive-in freezers are cooled by some kind of ammonia system. The place was a meat packing plant of some kind before they took it over. Swim doesn't know if this same type of ammonia but there is a huge tank by the loading docks full of the stuff

Hey Sparkey, what are you waiting on?

Hey sparkey1311, there is ONLY one ammonia refrigerant and thats R717. If its ammonia then its R717!

Ammonia (R717) can be used in open drive screw chillers, provided that safety issues are addressed. It is not suited for hermetic motor applications, because of material compatibility consideration, and is not well suited for centrifugal chillers because of its low molecular weight.

Ammonia is the only one of the original refrigerants that was able to stand up to the onslaught from the halocarbons. It has been used for decades in industrial refrigeration plants, and its continued popularity throughout the CFC era amply demonstrates its unique benefits. It has no ozone depletion potential and no global warming potential. Its energy efficiency is at least as

good as, and in most applications better than, HCFC22.

There are however, a number of drawbacks. The high compressor discharge temperature restricts the use of single stage compression to evaporating temperatures above -100C, unless screw compressors are utilised. Ammonia is not compatible with conventional lubricants and is highly corrosive to

copper. It cannot therefore be used with hermetic or semi-hermetic compressors unless aluminium windings are used, and leakage from shaft seals is difficult to eliminate.

A Japanese manufacturer claims to have overcome the shaft seal problem by using an airtight can between the motorÕs rotor and stator. No seal is needed, and it is said to be possible to completely prevent leakage of ammonia.

The developments of ammonia soluble lubricants now allow fully automated operation and direct expansion evaporators. These will be very similar to HCFC22 systems, although pipework and materials will be predominantly mild steel, stainless steel, and to a lesser extent, aluminium.

The ammonia industry has an excellent opportunity to increase its market share and to grow into a major industrial activity. It is apparent that user industries are on the threshold of making major policy decisions, and they need to be persuaded to consider ammonia as their preferred refrigerant.

The question is Òwhen and how quickly will the ammonia refrigeration industry change into a major global industrial player in the market sectors which have been lost to halocarbons?

There is an urgent need to embark on a sophisticated strategic plan for the promotion and wider acceptance of ammonia technology as a valid commercial, and environmentally superior, alternative to

halocarbons.

However, it must be recognised that there are three major obstacles:

1. The halocarbon chemical industry has fought a highly successful marketing campaign for many years and will not easily relinquish market share.

2. Any large-scale return to ammonia will be hampered by an acute skill shortage among

refrigeration engineers. Ammonia conversion courses for halocarbon engineers are expensive, time consuming, and intellectually demanding. So far very few have made the change.

3. Finally, there are the safety issues. Ammonia is both toxic and flammable and must be kept away from people and products. In the UK new projects will be covered by the C.D.M.

Regulations, accidents must be reported to the Health & Safety Executive, and EN378 should be adhered to.

Cunt we all just get along:}

Hey, Darksky! What have manufacturers done about centrifugal chillers using R-11? I know this was one of the first along with 12

to be phased out, but never heard of a replacement refrigerant for R-11.

Hmm....Perhaps a little birch research is in order. Swim is wondering how much the refilling cost will be or would it even be noticed that some was missing, also will it effect the freezers in any way? Last thing swim needs is 10,000 cases of shrimp and lobster tails defrosted when Pop gets to work Monday morning.

The tank is around 5'in dia. and approx 20'-25' tall.

R717 cost around .50 to .60 cents a pound in most places on the east coast. SWID says that If you were to drain off enough needed for a birch reaction there would be minimual effect, if any, on the freezers, perhaps a slight drop in freezer performance but probably nothing that is noticeable and definately nothing that would cause any damage, you would have to remove quite a bite to have that effect.

AS you know R-11 is no longer being manfactured and has been phased out, however you are still able to purchase R-11 that has been cleaned and reconditioned but the cost is astronimical.

Suva 123 is an HCFC replacement refrigerant for R-11 in low-pressure centrifugal chillers. New centrifugal equipment designed for Suva 123 can provide exceptionally high energy efficiency. In retrofits of existing centrifugal chillers, especially if the chiller is more than 8 years old, equipment modifications are often needed to increase capacity or avoid material incompatibility (especially elastomers).

Suva 123 is called R-123

Ok ok ok folks!! All apologies to DarkSky.

I just saw the "R-717" and immediately went into "protection-mode" of a precious resource of makin' dope.

In fact, if you fellas remember 46 Method he stumbled upon one of these 100 lb. cynlinders care of me.

Anything over 100lbs. is reported, but 100lbs. firm is not.

There most certainley are resouces for this resource but Jam is not tellin'!!!!!!!!!!!!



kirby I would tell you and will when a "PM" is once again possible.

Simply because kirby comes from the land of AC/DC!!

hehe......and because in my book the man is A-OK.

Jam.................--------->?!

jam

when i was 12 i use to go to a friends place in willagee

bon scott was about 17 then and had a high school band in the garage

we would go over and listen to him practice

You gotta be kiddin' me!!

Man you have lived a charmed life kirby!!

Thanks Jam, I really appreciate that! Unfortunatly, to my knowledge, the smallest container avaliable in the USA of R717 IS 150lbs (69kg). Im not 100% sure of that so I will do so more research

anhyd annie is available in usa in 15 lb up

containers

50 lb units are common

under 100 lbs and no reporting is necessary

nuff said

[This message has been edited by dan46 (edited 11-19-2003).]

just been lucky jam

Thanks Dan

Back in '95 a working girlfriend told me about the Russians and some of the things they get up to on a long fishing voyage into the southern hemisphere. They would take the boat apart to make things like knives, pens, small tools etc and sell them when they got here. They would then take the money and buy Lada's, Fiats, sewing machines, and other shit to take home. She said that they would drill a long hole using metal tubing into the life rafts to drill out the flares and medicines contained within. If the security tape on the rafts was broken the sailors had to pay for the repacking and repairs. It now occurs to me that it was to make meth. Hightimes had a report in '95 about a new drug situation emerging from Russia called "Vint", this also was meth, made on the spot. About the same time I was told about Russians stealing refrigerant in huge amounts from the clipon chillers used on fridgerated shipping containers. I have found out that this was to seperate the "goods" from the shit in the last stage of meth manufacture. Not actually to use in the reaction, like ammonia is. Was looking for a fridge compressor to turn into a vacuum pump, the better ones were made by "Kirby" he he. Kirby, I loved the Quokka quote, somebody told me about Rats nest Island but I didn't know the full story. Wicked-rains reply was the cherry on the top. Do you still have your teeth? Done any underwater welding? A friend has, good pay, saves more money in 10 days than he can work for in 3months.

yes ive still got my teeth,,ive only arked them together once,,

yes ive done west stick many times,,

hyperbaric welding is mostly tig and the coding is to rigorous for swim to be certified...

A few divers Swims met had their teeth taken out, some thing about air bubbles forming under the tooth root. They have him on full pay for three or four days in a bar before they let him fly him anywhere. Indonesia, oil pipe lines, all stick, just welding lifting lugs on. Swim used to drink with a guy who knew Angus & Malcom thru Wright& The Easybeats, best birthday hes been too. Swims got some old records, Fraternity & such. Raven Records. Shows his talent even then. Nobodys guessed who sings "To know, know, know you is to love, love, love you, but I do,but I do, but I do " but as soon he mentions Bon Scott, the guessings over, haha. Spot yah later. Swimk.

what occurs is from bad dentistry,,when the filling was laid in a minute air pocket was left,,,now either as he has gone down this has sucked a bit of nerve or tooth into the gap causing excrutiating pain,,or as he descended more air has sneaked into the gap and as he has ascended this air has become trapped causing pressure on the tooth,, causing excrutiating pain,,,,,

we get quite a few kiwis as divers working for subsea and oceaneering,,the maoris make great saturation divers for some reason,,,

and id be very surprised if i didnt know a welder working pipes in indon,,care to give me his name

BOB ! haha, no but he might be anTony, ask him what happened to his L/4finger. I'd rather drive a Holden than push a ford. The only diving I've done is undercover. Ta. Swimk