Im here at the library reading a chemistry book. I was reading about what polar means, and about it.

What i read is how polar is + or - charged atoms in some particular order. Also, only polar things will mix with polar things , and non-polar with non-polar. Water is polar as is meth, so the meth dissolves. Some non-polar molecule, such as oils or fats, will not.

So here is my question, can meth be dissolved in water and electrified or something to make it non-polar?

Polar polar polar!!!!! Aaaaaahhhhh!!!!!

I just thought, would meth freebase be non-polar? Aha! that's cause its an oil right? And according to this book, oils are non-polar. Hmmmm... What could be done? Or something to turn meth base into a smokable salt (or other form) that resists water? Hmmmm.

I'll go to the big library tomorrow and try to find out about this. Any thoughts about this from the chem-educated people out there?

My brain is racing.

miss peen, i congratulate you on your endeavour to study and learn--it is only through this avenue of education of your chosen field that true understanding can be attained--well done, and our time for learning finishes as our last breath leaves our mouth--good luck and well done

Hey Poopeen, how would you rate your cat

with meth? Never have done cat, so curious to

know what the differences are between the two? Really appreciate an answer. Thanks

umm... ok... all elements are polar (except nobal gasses)...

and all carbon compounds are not soluable in water...

these are the first 2 things that you learn in an introductory chem class...

you have to use an other carbon compound chem in order to dilute (ionize) meth... ie alcohol, gasoline, ect, ect...

and what do you mean turn it into a salt...

it would be functionless if turned into a salt... salts are non reactive...ie take HCl and add Na(OH) you get H2O and NaCl...this is regular salt water... compleatly non reactive...

now with the ionized (polarized) elements you have to take into account what their polarity is... ie H is +1 Cl is -1 thus they bind in a 1to1 matrix...or H+1 and O-2...will get you H2O...the compounds will always attempt even themselves out...

Anyway before i go on a rant... the reason that water is considered to stil be polarized is the molocule is off-centered...thus it pulls apart alot simple molocules...(non hex patterned ones)

Meth is not a soluable solution to water... you can drop the shit down your sink drain and it will still be there 3 months later...

hope some of this crap makes sence to you... but keep on keepen on... learning is truely the only reason that we are on this planet..



[This message has been edited by angelstruth (edited 08-09-2003).]

Hmmm. Im trying to digest and learn and understand. The result...confusion. Oh the confusion! Theres so much to know. well, thanks angelstruth, im still trying to fit that in and connect it to the rest of my brain. AAAAAAAhhhhhh! I need to sleep. Stillbill, the cat cannot compare to good clean d-meth. But it is accepable by all means. Its kept me awake for hmm, mabey eight or nine days so far. And it smells so good, blow it out your nose. mmmmmmmmm..... and bill, when you add your lye solution to the shit add it a little at a time. As you dont really want to over base the cat, itll brooodooon toobeenbbvbm nb nn heloppv

quote:Originally posted by kirby:

miss peen, i congratulate you on your endeavour to study and learn--it is only through this avenue of education of your chosen field that true understanding can be attained--well done, and our time for learning finishes as our last breath leaves our mouth--good luck and well done

trhjsanks but innmmm aa gghhgyuuuyyjklllllllll

miss peen--go to bed

I can't believe I'm even going to attempt this one, but it seems that perhaps you're trying to fix something that ain't broke. I am not a chemist, I'm not even all too bright when it comes to chemistry, so forgive me if I sound like I'm oversimplifying. I'm not. This is how I see it.

Think of polar like you would the earth and the north and south poles. Earth represents the polar molecule and the poles are on top and bottom. This is that charge you were talking about. When the molecules attach to other molecules, they attach "standing up" because of this top and bottom charge.

If this sounds stupid, accept my apologies and stop reading.

Now our friendly meth molecule has a particular characteristic to it that makes all the hoopla over its manipulation possible. It contains something called amine nitrogens. This allows the molecule to react with an acid, like hydrochloric, and form a water soluble salt (the chloride part). Then if you react that salt in water with dilute base, it will convert back to the freebase, which is insoluble in water, but soluble in non polar organic solvents such as toluene, xylene, or naptha.

Now, if you think about this, you have a molecule that has the ability to shift from water soluble to water insoluble and then back again. Only compounds containing amine nitrogens can do this. So, all you have to do is wash your solution with a non polar solvent when it is in the polar salt stage and whatever is soluble in non polar solvents, or all large organic molecules, (for this purpose anyway) will be washed away. Then add a dilute base to the remaining solution changing any amine nitrogen containing molecules that happen to be in there to their freebase form. They now are no longer water soluble. This means you can wash away any water, or polar, soluble molecules that are in the solution. Since there are basically polar and non polar molecules and you already washed out all the non polar molecules, what you should end up with is your amine nitrogen containing molecule all by its lonesome. Unfortunately methamphetamine freebase is an oil and not a solid like its cousin and precursor buddy, pseudoephedrine, it is not practical, nor efficient to use it for medicinal purposes in this form. That's not a problem though cause our friendly molecule says you can convert him back and forth as many times as you wish without hurting his feelings. When you convert him back to his salt form with the dilute hcl, he becomes the guy we all love to be around.

Now I am curious. What has your mind dreamed up as the purpose for having a smokable salt that is resistant to water? (which you can't do, by the way, because the whole idea behind hooking it up with a salt is to make it water soluble and much more versatile and efficient to ingest or administer.)

Hey angel--

Be careful with the real chemistry when discussing meth chemistry. They sometimes SEEM to conflict. Actually it's usually just the angle we happen to be looking at the situation from. For example, you said something about alcohols and meth (freebase I assumed) for dilution (ionization). OK, I'll take your word for it, but don't use alcohols with non polar solvents. Some are miscible, some are not. Some are miscible when hot and some are miscible when combined in a particular order or ratio. Always use DH2O as your polar solvent in an A/B.

Oh, and by the way, the goofy explanation above attempts to describe the basic ideas behind the acid/base extraction technique. This will be the most important technique to master as it holds the key to the Q sisters. You will forever be in pursuit of what they offer. (OK, OK, damnit......quality and quantity. Now, you satisfied? You made me ruin the whole thing by having to tell.)

You also said a whopper when you said this:

"and what do you mean turn it into a salt...

it would be functionless if turned into a salt... "

Ahhhh! I know of at least one function of the hydrochloride salt of methamphetamine, and I would not be rambling so, if it's function didn't perform so well.

Please, if this is the most idiotic post you have ever read, let me just say this in my defense:

It's very early in the morning. I'd have to ask my wife, who is asleep right beside me asI peck away on this piece of shit .99 cent keyboard, trying to peck lightly so as not to wake her, (see, this sentence is already so long you've forgotten what I was saying in the first place. That's why I had to stop and explain all of this to you and make it even longer).

I would have to wake her to ask when it was I slept last. For those of you who are dangerously adventurous, try taking......oh.....I don't know......somewhere between 200mg. and 500mg. of diphenhydramine after you have been awake for 36 hours or more. It's the most fun you can have by yourself. Well, you're not really by yourself when you've been up in the neighborhood of 96-120 hours. The hallucinations are so real, they are almost believable.

Alrighty then. That's about enough out of you dumbshit.

Go away. Leave these poor people alone. Listen to that devilish precipitation who encourages you to sleep when you get like this. Or the guy who consistently lacks feeling invigorated although he seems pretty vigorous when irritated by a frog. How about the fella whose screen name sounds like the unfortunate equine in a jousting contest gone awry? He would want you to get some sleep, wouldn't he? Your old buddy, the one who has so many hydrogen atoms he is beginning to dissolve, oh yeah, he is definitely going to think you're a wacko if he reads this. (Ha! Thats a joke. He's far too busy now that he has other places to keep his mind occupied.)

Well, OK, I guess I'll......oops...excuse me ....did I just "stumble" over one of those amine nitrogen containing molecules?......Nah, it was just a fuckin' mushroom.

He's always after me lukky charms. Ain't that right "anime" niac?

Please disregard all that was stated above. Especially that paragraph by angelstruth I have no idea where they learned that but it wasn't from an institute of higher learning.

Polarity has to do with the types of bonds that form in a molecule. The types of bonds are based on how electronegative the component atoms are that take part in the bond. Electronegativity is how strongly an atom holds onto electrons.

When two atoms have similar electronegative properties they form bonds that are based on equal(close to) sharing of electrons these are co-valent bonds. These bonds tend to be non-polar, or un-charged as the electron density is evenly distributed. Carbon-Nitrogen(as in meth) Carbon-Hydrogen, and Carbon-Halogen are all quite co-valent and are relatively nonpolar.

On the other hand you can have two atoms that are very different in electronegativity. Such as sodium and flourine, the flourine attracts the electron so strongly that it attains a negative charge and the sodium gets stuck with a deficiency and ends up positive. This is an ionic bond and is quite strong.

There are grey areas where things arent quite ionic but still have a dipole moment(unequal charge). The most common example is water. There is a dipole moment in water which gives it polar properties(one such property is that it freezes into a crystalline structure)

In the end when we talk about solvents, like dissolves like. A nonpolar solvent like hexane (just Carbon-Hydrogen bonds) will disolve nonpolar things like paradichlorobenzene. And water disolves ionic salts and some other solids that are in the grey area. Note that water dissolves some things poorly, this is because they have more nonpolar character but still have some polarity.

Now the money question: Meth freebase is an amine, amines are very slightly basic but because meth has a huge nonpolar area it will dissolve in non-polar solvents and not water. The hydrophobic(water hating) part of the molecule keeps it from disolving in water. Being a base it can react with acids to form salts. The salt is ionic due to the strong electronegativity of the acid. (The acid gives a proton to the amine base and thus makes itself negative and the amine nitrogen positive)Thsi ionic amine salt dissolves in water(or other polar solvent) freely.

Please note that there is very little that is purely 100% non-polar or 100% polar, most everything is on a sliding scale. And this is what allows us to to chromatography.

Any more questions or clarifications, feel free to ask.

quote:Originally posted by angelstruth:

umm... ok... all elements are polar (except nobal gasses)...

and all carbon compounds are not soluable in water...

these are the first 2 things that you learn in an introductory chem class...

you have to use an other carbon compound chem in order to dilute (ionize) meth... ie alcohol, gasoline, ect, ect...

and what do you mean turn it into a salt...

it would be functionless if turned into a salt... salts are non reactive...ie take HCl and add Na(OH) you get H2O and NaCl...this is regular salt water... compleatly non reactive...

now with the ionized (polarized) elements you have to take into account what their polarity is... ie H is +1 Cl is -1 thus they bind in a 1to1 matrix...or H+1 and O-2...will get you H2O...the compounds will always attempt even themselves out...

Anyway before i go on a rant... the reason that water is considered to stil be polarized is the molocule is off-centered...thus it pulls apart alot simple molocules...(non hex patterned ones)

Meth is not a soluable solution to water... you can drop the shit down your sink drain and it will still be there 3 months later...

hope some of this crap makes sence to you... but keep on keepen on... learning is truely the only reason that we are on this planet..

[This message has been edited by angelstruth (edited 08-09-2003).]

Lies lies lies!! Don't listen to a word of this!

Uggh Now I must state that Gotta posted while I was typing so my post had no reference to his.

Props to gotta for his excellent and entertaining post!

[This message has been edited by tryptamine (edited 08-09-2003).]

This is why this fourm needs U SwiTRYPT!!!

Take our shit and throw it BACK at us but at least keep given the highly educated answers.

Swirl respects your advise on all subjects, for greater knowledge is a gift given only to chosen few.

Later !!!! !!!!!!

GOGO, that damn frog(frig) will always irritate me and yes you do need ZZZZZ's!

BTW, what is diphenhydramine? That devilish

precip(wicked rain), the equine( red horse)??

All in all, an excellent post as usual, GOGO

thank you tryp, and congratulations to poopeen for trying to learn.

I think Tryptamine is one of the Meth Gods!

No movin' William--

I was so totally wacked last night, I was having trouble seeing the screen. On top of that, I was trying to peck very quietly all the while people were walking around the room, staring at me; wierd shit like that. You guys would have paid good money to see that. Jeez, what an idiot. Oh yeah, I rested a bit, but never slept. So what. I'll sleep when I'm dead.

Diphenhydramine is benedryl, an antihistamine. It also has hypnotic and hallucinogenic properties. I don't recommend 500mg. if you've never munched em before. There's something about the fatigue caused by being awake for too long that really brings the hallucinations to the front. Scary for some, most excellent for others.

When I read tryps first post, I was thinkin to myself, "I know it was a junior high post, but I didn't think I was misleading. Then I read the second one and it made me realize that most of my answers are very basic, surface knowledge. My goal is laughter. I went to college a few years ago (ok, quite a few years ago) and I had to learn all the valance shells and bonds, but I didn't understand a damn word of all of that above. It sure sounds good though. That's why its good to have tryp around. When someone starts talkin' over my head, I want someone who knows what the hell they're talking about to handle the interrogation.

For me, hearing that someone laughed so hard that tea spewed from their nose is a high taht nodrug can ever give you.

Laughter is the best medicine.