As with anything handed down by word of mouth and apprenticeship teaching, the rp/i reduction of pseudo/ephedrine to methamphetamine has been distorted to the point that no one knows who to believe.

The problem lies with the nature of man. If someone comes up with a quicker eisier way, their reported results are taken as truth, without requiring any for of proof. Those who try to duplicate those results and fail, believe they must have done something wrong to cause the failure. Also, there are those who don't know the difference between half reacted product and completely reacted product because they have never had completely reacted product and therefore don't have anything to compare it to. If these same people have announced their friends intentions to try this method and report their results, often times will lie to save face rather than simply ignore the promise to report results. God forbid they actually tell the truth and look like an idiot. Anyone who reports they fucked up, and its something Swigotta has already fucked up himself or knows doesn't work, will always have my respect for their honesty. Pride is how these things get started.

I am not naming any names or making any accusations. Instead, I would like to repost the most convincing arguement for the long, wet reflux that I have ever read and then you will have a better understanding of the process and be better able to make an intelligent decision on which way to go.

If you are successful using the short, hot, dry cook, please don't use this thread to try to convince me or anyone else that this is bullshit and they should try your variation of the push pull method. If you really are successful using the quick method, then I am envious of you.

I guess it would have been a good idea to paste the fuckin' thing, don't ya think? OK, here it is. It's by Osmium, a really smart dude.

It's kinda fun to read all that poetic waxing ...



It's kinda fun to read all that poetic waxing about "potency" and stuff, but that doesn't explain it clearly enough to the next moron who will read it and start some new urban myths in his area which will without a doubt spread and end up here again.

What we have is a reaction converting A (precursor) and B (HI) into an intermediate C (iodometh) and finally into the desired end product D (meth) and a whole lot of different side products and contaminants(e, f, g, h... etc):

A + B ------> [C] ------> D (A + C + e + f + g + h...)

A + C being mentioned on the product side of the equation means there will also be some unconverted precursor and intermediate present.

Amounts and distribution patterns of D and (A, C, e, f, g, h...) in your end product depend on a whole lot of factors, mainly reaction conditions, but also on the workup procedure, method of crystallization and method of recrystallization. Needless to say, if A isn't pure and contains other chemicals the product distribution will be even more complicated.

As every chemist knows, chemical reactions take TIME to go to completion. While there are a few incredibly fast reactions which take only milliseconds or less to finish, the HI reduction is unfortunately not among them!

And every chemist will tell you, that stoichometry is also very important. When one of reactands is present in excess then it will be left over afterwards, and the conversion of the reactand which was not in excess will undergo a more complete conversion. This also means that if there is an insufficient amount of a chemical present the reaction CANNOT be completed for the other reactand being present in excess!

A good example for that last case is the 'dry' fast rP/I2 reaction. There isn't sufficient H2O present to convert all the I2 into HI, so it is absolutely impossible that this one converts all precursor A into product D. The result will be a wild ass mixture of a little D plus a shitload of unconverted A, intermediate C, and the usual e, f, g, h... crap. Since the purification methods used by garage chemists are usually insufficient to properly separate the components that wild ass ugly mixture is what you will end up with. Proof: ref. on Rhodium's claiming 50 impurities present in such meth. Shitty taste. Peanut butter appearance.

Since it is close to impossible to completely separate desired product mixture containing D (meth ) from all the other shit in a garage setting, especially A and C (which happen to have very similar solubilities as D!), the amount of pure D in the end product will be rather low, and the amount of toxic side products rather high.

I guess most of you would call that stuff 'low potency' meth. Some morons will call that 'good' meth, because the taste and toxic action is what they expect meth to be like.

I call it impure, dirty, toxic and lots of unconverted precursor present.

So what to do to get a better end product?

I) make sure that there's enough B (HI) present to convert all the A (precursor) into D (meth)

II) for condition I to be fulfilled, you have to add enough water to the reaction! Because if there's not enough water around your I2 will not be converted into HI! Also: gaseous HI which is not in solution will not contribute to the reaction. Make sure that the HI has water to dissolve in! Common sense!

III) give the reaction enough time to complete! Fulfilling conditions I and II will still be useless if you don't give A, B and C enough time to complete their reaction to yield D!

IV) Since the cleanup methods available to most bees are rather limited in separation efficiency and since a high yield is desired make sure that the amounts and number of side products (e, f, g, h...) are as small as possible to begin with. Meaning: no flask fires! No excessive reaction conditions!

There is a reason why some of the old timers and bees with a chemical background have always been telling you to do it one way and not the other! It's inevitable that a bunch of wild and reckless youngins will keep challenging the status quo and come up with new ways and 'improvements', that's how progress is made. But not all 'improvements' are really what they claim they are, and all it takes is to start some group dynamics and the whole herd will stampede towards the abyss. Like someone claiming having done a dry reaction in 30 mins and the end product was "way potent dude!" Some wannabees repeating it, failing, and not wanting to admit to themselves and their bee-friends who they bragged about their mad chemi skillz that they fucked up the reaction so they confirm the results. Then a bunch of inexperienced bees who read all that, try it out themselves, produce some weak ass mmmeth!, and publicly confirming the result that "this indeed works!!!"

Next comes a charismatic dude who loves to be the center of attention, talks shit about those who know some chemistry backgrounds and publicly claims that "tweakers don't need any of that scientific hoopla to cook some potent chili! Fuck yeah!". Add some easy to follow writeup for the morons and soon everyone is following the new shitty procedure, totally rejecting and forgetting what were once established (and working!) procedures. That's what happened to the A/B at the end of the reaction which once used to be standard procedure, and that's what happened to long reflux.

That's how rumours and urban legends are started. Offer an easy solution and everyone will love you for it. Doesn't matter if the easy solution will not work, it is what the people want to hear and want to believe! Works in politics, and apparently works among bees too. Sad but true.

I say: gently boil that reaction for as long as you can.

Boil for not long enough: you will end up with unconverted precursor and intermediate in your end product. Which you CANNOT separate from your end product easily. And those who manage that will bitch about low yield.

Boil for too long: nothing bad will happen. All precursor is converted. No intermediate is left over. Meth is pretty stable under these conditions and will not decompose. Yield of end product (*potency* ) is maximised.





[This message has been edited by gottagogo (edited 07-12-2003).]

swinc was wondering, what exactly would one look for when the reaction would be complete? have heard many different theories on what the signs would be. longest cook time was 7 hrs at 95c. have seen reddish brown liquid, have seen "misty" rain, white smoke gently rolling, etc. also, what would be the ideal temp, and time for small rxn? i have read many many threads, all with different theories/suggestions. have tried little dh20, lots of dh2o and many ratios. so confusing sometimes! swinc has a 3 ring notebook and 2 inch binder full of notes and things. any specific ration w/the proper amt of dh20, time and temp that anyone has found that works best?

SWIM thinks the push/pull setup is good for new bees cuz it contains the smell and a new bee can know what stage the reaction is at and make notes as to what was going on in the flask and how it looked at those times. but SWIM in no way advocates the short hot cook. longgggggggggg is bestttttttt in any recipe if you ask me.

look at like this... if short and hot did good then the same longggggggg and cool will do fuckin EXCELLENT

swinc has never gotten any good results w/short & hot.

Greetings fellow dreamers, GOGO, hit it dead between the eyes with this post.When one begins to dream of the dream and seeks to gain knowledge for this endevour it is quickly reveiled as a very subjective, oppinionated,and complex dream. I'm sure that to those who truly understand and have savored the"TRUE" fruits of the dream it is maddening to see it distorted to the point that someone such as myself has a hard time sorting the truth from fiction. In my first post I expressed my desire to learn the true dream for self satisfaction, not to make $$$ pose my bravado in front of other dreamers."THE PURSUIT OF PERFECTION" is still my driving force and always will be as it has been in all things I've sought with passion and desire my entire life. That's just me...like "POPEYE" says,"I AM WHAT I AM!"..kekekekeke. I may still be learning false from fiction,but i have no trouble distinguishing the true dreamers from those who would blow sunshine up yer ass. GOGO,LUCKY D,ACID,TRYP,WICKED & the rest, whose names escape me presently, I have only respect an admiration for you all. If, and I feel I did, contribute to lies and misnomers by posting erronous results, I appologize to yall and to all who may read these scribes. Believe me,it was not done so out of contempt or bravado...only out of ingnorance to the dream, if you've never experienced the "TRUE" fruits of the dream there is nothing to compare to...just as GOGO eluded to earlier. KNOW THIS:I would never intentionally lie or mislead anyone and hopefully,if I do so out of ignorance, quickly call me to task for it.THANKS to you all for the good Info and your due dilligence in keepin it real.. . MANY HAPPY DREAMS!

Ok Ok Ok now. I DO agree that the long wet reflux is very nice and works great. HOWEVER.... if your precursers are clean enough, 1.5 hours at 150F to 190F will fully reduce all E. BUT ONLY if your precursers are clean enough. if your a beginner to extractions and cleaning precursers, the long-wet-one is the way to go for sure, but if you have IQ points (on the subject) in your pocket it is TOTALLy possible for a perfect reaction that fully reduces the precurser to complete withing 1 to 1.5 hours. I realize that this worked alot better back in the day before DMF pills and all the other fucked up shit that they put in the pills now a days, but I just wanted everyone to realize that if they have experience (practice), and really take there time cleaning the E that it is not unlikely that they will get super killer dope in an hour and a half reaction. IT IS STILL POSSIBLE PEOPLE, you just have to have patience.

Anyhow I did not post this to contridict gogo or anyone at all, gogo...lucky...pik... you are all my CH brothers and I know your skills as you do SWIAs, I just wanted to let it be known that it still is possible if you have the patience. But again, i would recommend the wet long one to noobies

[This message has been edited by acidmelt (edited 07-12-2003).]

Hello dopehumper how ya doin?

I think every question you just asked has already ben answered in previous posts. If you were looking for answers from someone else, by all means, get all the input you can. Unless you think it is extremely uncool, print everything you think is of use and catagorize it in a folder. It's amazing the lightbulbs that will light up when you read a compilation of material from many different sources. You can then begin to see patterns and make good sound judgements on the direction you wish to go.

Now, about those signs and indicators. The simple answer is that there is no such thing. They do not exist. That's the undisputable truth. Let me tell you why.

If you go back and read the first part of Osmium's post you will see that there are a myriad of side reactions that are occuring simultaneously within your reaction fluid. It doesn't matter how clean you get your precursors, unless they are all quality controlled and pharmaceutical grade. Even then, the environment in which the reaction occurs adds in many more variables such as room humidity, evenness or lack thereof of heating surface, temperature (precision of thermometer), even what you cleaned the reaction vessel with and how well it was cleaned. If you take the average basement cook using pseudo from pills, rp from matchbooks and iodine from tincture, is it any wonder why I can say with complete confidence that there is no universal sign or indicator of completeness? or any other stage for that matter.

Now, with that said, there are many signs that you can use to help you feel more at ease that you are on the right track and some that let you know that you may be in trouble. I have read of reactions that didn't fire off for shit and yielded a very good quality product with a respectable yield. I have also heard of a reaction where great lengths had been made to insure that the precursors were pristine. Pseudo that grew in clear crystals the size of toothpicks broken in half and so dry they clinked when they fell in a pile to be weighed. Resublimd iodine with crystals that were so shiny that you could see your reflection in each one and dry enough to leave nothing on the weigh paper. And RedP, a fine consistent powder that resembled burgandy cosmetic powder. All that and too much DH2O turned it into a pile of wasted time and money. All it yielded was some good clean pseudo and perhaps some intermediates. That was 32 hours, by the way.

So, I can tell you that when you add you reactants, add pseudo and red first and mix to a smooth homogenous powder, then add the iodine crystals (which will not react with the redp if no water is present. Period.), and then add the DH2O at the rate of 0.7 ml per gram of pseudo IF the amount of pseudo is between 5 and 12 grams. Then quickly assemble whatever condensing device you are using (oh yeah, another variable I forgot to add in. A very big variable.) and seal all joints. You may see white or yellow smoke. Maybe a little maybe a lot. When you swirl the mixture it may look smooth and burgandy in color. It may be very thick or not so thick. The bubbles may be small and many or not so small and in patches. I can tell you all of these things and your reaction may miss on every one and still come out great.

Determining completion by how the red falls is a fuckin' joke. There is absolutely no way to describe to someone what it looks like. Not only that, the quantity of water used initially and the integrity of the sealed environment that prevents loss of vapor is directly related to how the mixture will look when it is complete. The only way you can even come close to accurately using sensory signs to determine the completeness of the reaction is to record every detail of the process from first pill that pops out of the foil, to the finish of the first bowl smoked of the finished product. Then, if you can come close to duplicating these details that YOU have determined using YOUR words, YOUR eyes, YOUR nose, and YOUR brain, then maybe, just maybe you will be able to determine what stage YOUR reaction is in.

I am sorry to say that anybody that tells you any different is full of shit and the information is absolutely, catagorically untrue.

ANY AND ALL SENSORY OBSERVATIONS ARE ONLY OF USE TO THE INDIVIDUAL OBSERVER!!

Do you hear what I'm sayin'?

"It doesn't matter how clean you get your precursors,"

actually I believe it does matter. a whole lot actually, I dont want to argue with you on this matter but I disagree with Osiums post on a few matters. just personal opinion though. thanks for the contributions bro.

OK, since the who knows how long spent writing the above post I see that Acidmelt has posted. If you read the original post, you will see that there is an exception clause that was added for the express purpose of allowing those of whom I have great respect for to violate the rules of this thread. Remember, Acidmelt has been practicing things that he enjoys for a long time. He has probably forgotten more (by killing off most of his brain cells) than the rest of us here will ever learn. So, it may be possible to turn water into wine and lead into gold but you better be Jesus and a Alchemist if you want to make it happen.

Damn dude. I've been getting my ass kicked over and over again and you decide to show up here. hahaha hehehe hohoho

Hey Gotta,

I read through your entire commentary on the way the chemicals react, and it all,naturally, makes perfectly good sense. And the society spawned misconceptions to any one that thinks about it,are self evident as well. I was waiting for you to get to the "Long Wet" synth, by the intellegent individual you mentioned.

What I'm slow fuckin' us to death trying to get at is(sorry) How long? min/max? How wet? min/max? How hot? min/max? And any other factors crucial to the process you described. Thanks man.

i will say only one thing , OS is a moron.

[This message has been edited by pikk (edited 07-12-2003).]

Well, he's an arrogant asshole, but do you really think he's a moron?

Shooter you are asking the questions that have no answer, grasshopper. I wish I knew.

The only answers I have are these, and they are meant literally and not sarcastically.

How long?

As long as you can stand it.

How wet?

Wet enough so that it will bubble on a liquid surface and not so wet that it looks like water.

How hot?

Hot enough that you begin to question whether or not its too hot, and not so hot that you think it will burn up if you were to leave it for a few hours.

The only other thing that comes to mind is something that had a profound impact on my way of thinking. Geezmeister once said in reference to precursors

If you find yourself questioning whether or not it is clean enough, then it isn't.

(I'd like to put it in quotes, but I am unsure of the exact quote.)

The cleanest precursors you can obtain is the very least you should accept. It blows my mind how much trash is in those beautiful crunchy "snow cone ice" and "cotton candy" lumps of crystals that are in the acetone or MEK rinsed filter. If you have this look, maybe the pseudo could use a little work.

I can't believe I just said that after that rant about not relying on someone else's sensory descriptions. I guess there's just no other way to tell someone about something when you really need to show them.

What a fucked up society we live in.

Oh wow, I forgot all about that quote from the geez..."If you find yourself questioning whether or not it is clean enough, then it isn't. " Thats one of my all time favorites

Hear!! Hear!! I must give my two cents here man.

I get Desoxyn which is pure and true C10H15N......meth hcl.

And unless you have done Desoxyn you are unknown to its feeling and effects to your neurons.

You say clean is better and polluted is inferior. Well yes and no man.

Ive done some peanut butter that kept me rushing and torqued for a full 48 hours with no rollercoaster at all. I was so tweeked I was washing clothes and with the washer in use I used my wheelbarrow!! All the while contemplating rational sound and deep miscelaneous ponderances.

And all I did was 1/3rd of a gram shot(60-thi ck).

Here is what I reckon from past experience:

1)ether-based dope like ether-based cocaine is tops

2)I've never had glass that was better than some colored crank.

3)Lemon-Drop crank of the late 0's early 90's was the fucking best ever tweek produced.

4)P2P like Adderall is racemic and on paper only 50% potent by weight........bullshit!!

P2P is fucking incredible meth!

5)Cannabis has THC but remeber there are 1000's of starins each unique and pleasnat in their buzz given.

6)Get anal about what goes in your flask but be relaxed on what comes out.

7)Pure meth is boring period.

8)If your ingrediants were pure then why stress the impurities in your evap dish?!

9)Only annie dope comes out in my pores

10)And not even then if sodium was used instead of lithium(a dirty dirty metal!)



To each his own but think for yourselves and reflect on past experiences on the dope you have done not making the doe you have done.

Acidmelt gets nolove because he is not a Hiver

but his reaction recipe is to the point and produces dope that'll make you think you did 50/50 meth/cocaine

Nuff' said!

no gogo i dont think he is a moron . but i do disagree with alot of what he says . as for a long cook it is better for some but swip some times still does a hot fast one . and to tell you the truth there is not much differnce but swip does have a few years on yall . maybee that is the differnce .

now i wont step on your thread anymore sorry gogo.

If you ask me pikk it is necessary to profess and ponder the whole picture here.

The point being that long and wet is longer because it is wet.

All we wanna acomplish here is stripping oxygen away from the C'sH'sand N's of the substance.

Abbott Labs uses nickel/palladium to strip out the oxygen from ephedrine hcl.

And Desoxyn has less legs than dope done in 45 minutes man!!



I think to keep open ones mind to proven Meth Masters(AM/geez/ummmm........curbshot?!lol!)

Geez likes clean and refined tweek.

Therefore he proposes how to go about acheiving such.

Bised based propositions never float in dope cooking cause it is about how the author likes his or hers' tweek.

I personally feel pure grain alcohol and ether vacume filtered in a glass filter funnel is superior.

And gassing to drop the PH is better since it requires no heat.

P2P dope still around but only from the Bikers. Why?! Because phenol-2-propone is sold in Mexico and $100 of it makes 20+ pounds of dope.

Trick is its a true skill to make it.

Afterall, in 1980 when P2P was banned ephedrine and hydriodic acid was still legal to buy.

Only that its much more expensive to make.

P2P is now but a memory.

Basically, I feel we all need to contribute our own ponderance on this subject because it is not to discount you gogo.....rather it is to open doors and pass around reckonings from tweekends of the past.



I hope I didn't tresspass on you gogo by my saying all of this.

But this is growing to be quite the informative multi-faceted thread.

http://wwww.BeastieBoys.com

If I did tresspass I will delete this for you gogo.

jam...i have never heard it said any better

still mindless and so confused