What makes Jesus's death different??

In no way am I trying to be disrespectful, but I never really understood why Jesus is giving so much credit for sacrificing himself for us.

Why is his sacrfice any more important then lets say a fireman running in a burning building to help someone, or any other case of someone saving someones live with their own.

Could just be me ranting.

[---Beany---]

I think its because he chose to suffer through the whole ordeal in order for his life and teachings to be truly remembered. Thats his sacrifice to future generations.

[jb_mcbean]

Because he was a Jew, on a stick, a jewsicle.

quote:Originally posted by jb_mcbean:

Because he was a Jew, on a stick, a jewsicle.

That's terribly uncreative.

But it's different because our Creator came down through Jesus, in order to give us all a second chance. According to Jesus, the greatest act of love is to sacrifice your life for another, and so with God doing that for all of humanity, it's a big deal.

But same with the great act of love, a death like the one you described is still a great act of kindness and love.

[jb_mcbean]

quote:Originally posted by potentgirt:



That's terribly uncreative.

What's the use in creativity when the classics still ring so true?

Didnt he claimed to be the son of God or something!

[truckfixr]

quote:Originally posted by potentgirt:



That's terribly uncreative.

But it's different because our Creator came down through Jesus, in order to give us all a second chance. According to Jesus, the greatest act of love is to sacrifice your life for another, and so with God doing that for all of humanity, it's a big deal.

But same with the great act of love, a death like the one you described is still a great act of kindness and love.

If Jesus were in fact, the son of God, the sacrifice of His physical body would be meaningless. He didn't have to give up anything , really. Through His death, He simply returned to His original state of being.

For a sacrifice to have genuine meaning , there must be a real sacrifice. Something must actually be given up. When a lamb was sacrificed, the lamb's existance was ended. No afterlife...nothing but oblivion.

The sacrifice of Jesus was more like his changing clothes. Nothing was really given up.

[AngryFemme]

And that is beside the fact that an Omnipotent Being would require an act that would justify his position to people in the future.

Dear truckfixr,

What do you mean he gave nothing up? He was brutally beaten to within an inch of his life and then hung on a cross to die, which is still one of the greates forms of torture known to man. Lambs die and go to oblivion? of course they do, they are animals. Jesus died on the cross and experienced every bit of punishment that we were suppose to recieve. Then he was risen from the dead, a new body that was perfect, remember he told mary not to touch him for he had not yet gone to his father. He was indeed different. As we will be when we are risen from the dead on the last day. He gave up his life haha i dont think you can give up much more, his ressurection is what we will all experience in the end. Therefore we must not be able to sacrifice either since we will just be changing clothes.

[Graemy]

he said that it is just like him changing clothes because he was the acclaimed son of god and according to christians he is also part of god so how is it giving up something if he is an omnipotent being he just returned to his natural state so is it really giving something up when you get more in the end in this case becomeing god

[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 07-08-2006).]

[truckfixr]

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Dear truckfixr,

What do you mean he gave nothing up? He was brutally beaten to within an inch of his life and then hung on a cross to die, which is still one of the greates forms of torture known to man.

What is extreme torture to a human should be nothing to an omnipotent being.

quote: Lambs die and go to oblivion? of course they do, they are animals.

Humans are also animals.

quote: Jesus died on the cross and experienced every bit of punishment that we were suppose to recieve. Then he was risen from the dead, a new body that was perfect, remember he told mary not to touch him for he had not yet gone to his father. He was indeed different.As we will be when we are risen from the dead on the last day. He gave up his life haha i dont think you can give up much more, his ressurection is what we will all experience in the end.

He died and was ressurected as a perfect being...Ok... What exactly did he give up?

quote: Therefore we must not be able to sacrifice either since we will just be changing clothes.

As a human being , you can believe that you will be ressurected into heaven. You cannot possibly know this as fact. Sacrificing yourself holds no guarantee that you will be reborn. The life you possess may well be the only one you get. In sacrificing yourself, you risk oblivion.

An omnipotent being would know as a fact that his resurrection would occur. There is no gamble being made. Thus no real sacrifice.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 07-08-2006).]

[Graemy]

kinda makes jesus sound a little selfish doesn't it

It doesn't.

/thread

[redzed]

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

I think its because he chose to suffer through the whole ordeal in order for his life and teachings to be truly remembered. Thats his sacrifice to future generations.

I agree with this^^^^^, if the 'myth' is seen as metaphor, rather than literal, it tells of a person who is both the son of god and of man. A person who presents radical views such as 'love your enemies', and who challenges the entrenched system that is persecuting the common people -- much like today. In the myth, Jesus knows all, he knows what will befall him as surely as we know and see what happens now to those who buck the system. In the end he is charged and murdered for his direct assault upon the commercializing of religion.

To me this metaphor speaks of an idealised character, a cultural role model, a way to inspire believers with purpose, reason, and attitude!

Namaste

I really think that the word Son is a misunderstanding or mistranslation from Greek. A Son a Servant, A Father a Master.

Remember when it says Son of Man? I think it makes more sense as Servant, same goes for when it says Son of God.

Change the word Son to Servant: Jesus is the Servant of God, Jesus is the Servant of Man.

I like Truck's idea, that no real sacrifice was made as he did suffer but then returned purified and immortal. It does seem alot like a metaphor. I actually don't believe in the Jesus cross story, I don't even believe the original Jesus was at those times in history because the Virgin Birth concept had been around pre Zoroastrianism (Zoroaster, the Monotheistic Prophet of Zoroastrianism was said to be born of a virgin too) I believe in a much older base story for all these stories coming pre Persia, Pre Egypt, Pre Babylon probably.

Because according to God, God is a vengeful, spiteful and jealous God. Nothing less than blood will appease his anger for the lose of innocence he allowed to happen. Thus the blood would need to come from someone who is without sin, like God, yet carries an indirect link to the original sin, like man. Thus he needed the blood of a Man-God (something similar to Krishna) to lift his rage on the innocent.

[Graemy]

actually there is a cross story in egypt had to do with one of their gods dying and coming back i forgot wich one i think it was either Isis Osiris or Horace

I myself do know that I will be risen from the dead, it is my assurace, just as it was his. This does not make it any less of a sacrifice. I can still make a sacrifice, even though i know that i will not truly die. He came as true man and true God. Therefore he experienced everything a human would experience. He gave up his life lol yes he got it back again, as i will get mine back, but that does not change his death. Humans are above animals in thought and action, of course there are poeple that act like animals, but that does not change that the rest of us are humans. We are more complex than an animal and thus i find that our souls are more complex, giving us authority over animals. As for christ being the son of God, it is not that, that declares him God, it is when he is called the son of man, lol a bit confusing but it is prophesied in daniel about the son of man, which christ is called, it is also when paul talks of christ being equal with God, but not grasping this equality and choosing to humble himself.

[redzed]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I really think that the word Son is a misunderstanding or mistranslation from Greek. A Son a Servant, A Father a Master.

Remember when it says Son of Man? I think it makes more sense as Servant, same goes for when it says Son of God.

Change the word Son to Servant: Jesus is the Servant of God, Jesus is the Servant of Man.

What is it with you Abrahim, you pluck assumptions out of suppositions!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I like Truck's idea, that no real sacrifice was made as he did suffer but then returned purified and immortal. It does seem alot like a metaphor. I actually don't believe in the Jesus cross story, I don't even believe the original Jesus was at those times in history because the Virgin Birth concept had been around pre Zoroastrianism (Zoroaster, the Monotheistic Prophet of Zoroastrianism was said to be born of a virgin too) I believe in a much older base story for all these stories coming pre Persia, Pre Egypt, Pre Babylon probably.

It could be: http:../../home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/christianorigins/default.htm

however it might also be that the movement that began with Jesus was counterfeited, and the real character was more like that found in the Gnostic gospels like Gospel of Thomas or the Essene Gospel of John. In these books Jesus is presented as a Buddha like figure, in fact there is some historical evidence that between the ages of 13 and 30 Jesus travelled to India, then the Himalayas, where he became known as the Lord Issa, Buddha of Compassion.

Namaste

Thats his name! Isa! (E-Sa), some believe he never died on the cross or even experienced that but traveled with his mother to Murray in ancient India up in the mountains where he taught and died, his tomb is still there where in ancient Aramaic it is written something like "Here lies Isa son of Marium" and then next to him is the tomb of his mother Marium.

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

Because according to God, God is a vengeful, spiteful and jealous God. Nothing less than blood will appease his anger for the lose of innocence he allowed to happen. Thus the blood would need to come from someone who is without sin, like God, yet carries an indirect link to the original sin, like man. Thus he needed the blood of a Man-God (something similar to Krishna) to lift his rage on the innocent.

I don't like people saying God is jealous, vengeful, spiteful, I believe these are just reflective words representing the way the culture may have thought at the time: An Eye for an Eye.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I don't like people saying God is jealous, vengeful, spiteful, I believe these are just reflective words representing the way the culture may have thought at the time: An Eye for an Eye.

People aren't saying those things, they are repeating the words of the god in the Old Testament. Which they believe to be true, of course.

[redzed]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Thats his name! Isa! (E-Sa), some believe he never died on the cross or even experienced that but traveled with his mother to Murray in ancient India up in the mountains where he taught and died, his tomb is still there where in ancient Aramaic it is written something like "Here lies Isa son of Marium" and then next to him is the tomb of his mother Marium.

I've heard that legend but have not seen any evidence, do you have a link or further info? The history I mentioned is found here: http:../../reluctant-messenger.com/issa1.htm

and was discovered In 1894 by Nicolas Notovitch in the Himis convent near Leh the capital of Ladak: http:../../reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

This account has Jesus/Issa returning to his homeland because of the sufferings of his people as relayed by travellers. He falls afoul of Pilate, the Roman governer, and it is Pilate, acting against the advice of the Israelite authorities, who puts him to death. There is no mention of a resurrection(just an empty tomb), or of a return to India.

Namaste

[redzed]

[quote]quote:Originally posted by redzed:

I've heard that legend but have not seen any evidence, do you have a link or further info?

Namaste

Don't bother found one: http:../../www.tombofjesus.com/home.htm

Namaste

I actually spent the last few weeks taking drugs every day and actually managed to engage in the body of him...

i think, maybe or not...!!??

It was good: i think pilate must have let me off or something!

I don't believe Jesus ever dealt with Pilate or the Romans really. Or Isa at least.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

If Jesus were in fact, the son of God, the sacrifice of His physical body would be meaningless. He didn't have to give up anything , really. Through His death, He simply returned to His original state of being.

For a sacrifice to have genuine meaning , there must be a real sacrifice. Something must actually be given up. When a lamb was sacrificed, the lamb's existance was ended. No afterlife...nothing but oblivion.

The sacrifice of Jesus was more like his changing clothes. Nothing was really given up.

Jesus liked to sit next to a warm fire on a cold night. Jesus liked the taste of a good wine. Jesus liked a simple drink of water on a hot day. I forget how the rest goes. The point is that it is human nature to not wanna die, at least normal people. The big deal was that his human nature willingly gave up the body.

Abrahim, you do realize that along with the historicity of the Bible there are secular sources for Christ as well? Josephus for example mentioned Christ in his writings as coming before the pharisees, there were other jewish writers as well as some romans who wrote about Christ

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Abrahim, you do realize that along with the historicity of the Bible there are secular sources for Christ as well? Josephus for example mentioned Christ in his writings as coming before the pharisees, there were other jewish writers as well as some romans who wrote about Christ

Yes, in the 12 Caesars it is written of a "Christ" character.

Could you link me to some bullet point pages that explain the various sources of history outside of the new Testament from the time of Jesus (not after) that make mention of Jesus?

[jb_mcbean]

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Dear truckfixr,

What do you mean he gave nothing up? He was brutally beaten to within an inch of his life and then hung on a cross to die, which is still one of the greates forms of torture known to man. Lambs die and go to oblivion? of course they do, they are animals. Jesus died on the cross and experienced every bit of punishment that we were suppose to recieve. Then he was risen from the dead, a new body that was perfect, remember he told mary not to touch him for he had not yet gone to his father. He was indeed different. As we will be when we are risen from the dead on the last day. He gave up his life haha i dont think you can give up much more, his ressurection is what we will all experience in the end. Therefore we must not be able to sacrifice either since we will just be changing clothes.

Haha what a knob-jockey. If he didn't want pwned he shouldn't have pissed off the Romans. And he didn't rise from the dead, that was just some grave robber's quick thinking;

Peter: "What the hell are you doing in Jesus's grave!?"

Grave robber: "Umm... I am Jesus, I came to give you a message?"

Peter: "Ok cool, wanna go share this blunt?"

[This message has been edited by jb_mcbean (edited 07-11-2006).]

[ArmsMerchant]

According to scripture (the Greek, not the flawed Greek to Latin to English translations), Jesus did not die on the cross. It was a scam.

[King_Cotton]

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

According to scripture (the Greek, not the flawed Greek to Latin to English translations), Jesus did not die on the cross. It was a scam.

Heh, +1 for that. Henry Gondorf's wet dream.

[Fate]

Cripes, and I just posted this today completely out of the blue.

Print this out and screen it onto a T shirt. See how long it takes for some bible-belter to take a swing at you:

Front, and back.

I could have just typed it, but meh.

The actual sacrifice wasn't dying in the cross. It was that he could have stopped his suffering but chose not to so that humans could have a second chance,

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

According to scripture (the Greek, not the flawed Greek to Latin to English translations), Jesus did not die on the cross. It was a scam.

According to the Qur'an, Jesus did not die on the cross: It was a scam. Either an illusion or a person whom they thought was Jesus they put up on the cross while the real Jesus escaped, this is because while he was in captivity he prayed and his prayers were answered. Also in the Apocryphal books there is a story that also mentions this happening and Jesus not dying on the cross, artwork was made showing Jesus standing in the crowd and none of them even noticed him but were so absorbed by the cross event. They were all fooled and claimed in arrogance "We killed Jesus!" and Jesus was all like "Nuh Uh!"

So then according to the Bible he goes back to the disciples and is all like WUSUUUUP and they are like WTF? You're DEAD! Jesus is like Nuh Uh! and they are like WE SAW YOU DIE DUDE and Jesus was like NO YOU DUDN'T check out my hands, look, and my feet check it out, they didn't even TOUCH me, and the Disciples were like So you're a ghost? and Jesus said NO, touch me, feel me, do Ghosts eat fish? Gimme some Fish! Then he ate fish to prove he's not dead and not a ghost, but they were still confused so he left them.

Jesus is not the Son of God, but the Servant of God.

Pais is the Greek word which can mean both Son and Servant. God is far beyond having sons, Jesus is the devout servant of God.

Furthermore it calls Jesus the Son of Man, when what that means is he is the Servant of Man as a Messenger.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 07-14-2006).]

Jesus's death was a sacrafice to forgive people of sin. Jesus had to die because the man who first sinned was a perfect human and another perfect human had to be sacrificed to cancel out what Adam had done.

quote:Originally posted by krew:

Jesus's death was a sacrafice to forgive people of sin. Jesus had to die because the man who first sinned was a perfect human and another perfect human had to be sacrificed to cancel out what Adam had done.

Can't Adam just say "Sorry, Please Forgive Me" and God be like "Ok."

Reminds me of that joke by Bill Hicks.

*three men push Hicks*

Men:%20_2593hey,%20buddy,%20we_2592re%20christians%20and%20we%20didn_2592t%20like%20what%20you%20were%20saying%20about%20our%20religion._2594

Bill:%20_2593well%20then%20forgive%20me._2594

Bill:%20_2593boy,%20did%20i%20regret%20saying%20that%20half-an-hour%20later,%20when%20i%20was%20hanging%20upside%20down%20from%20a%20tree._2594

Anyways, Christians teach that Jesus was sent down from heaven by his father to die for our sins upon the cross so that his father could forgive us and then he came back from the dead three days later and flew up to heaven.

1. Jesus is part of God, so it wasn’t really a sacrifice, because he just killed himself knowing full well that he’d go back to heaven.

2. God is fucking barbaric, needing his son - who is also part of him BTW - to be slaughtered brutally in order for him to forgive us for doing something he gave us the power to do, knowing full well we’d do it because he knows everything.