“In your current life, every cell in your body has died and been replaced many times.” Me being alive for eighteen years is merely an illusion; I have the memories of a dead man.

“According to probability, someday in the future the clump of debris that comprises your body and mind will breakdown and disintegrate, but a version of you will reappear in the future, by chance”

It wouldn’t be you, it’d be a replica.

What do people think of this?

given an infinite amount of time, it absolutely has to happen.

large values of infinity don't really exist in the real world though.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

“In your current life, every cell in your body has died and been replaced many times.” Me being alive for eighteen years is merely an illusion; I have the memories of a dead man.

“According to probability, someday in the future the clump of debris that comprises your body and mind will breakdown and disintegrate, but a version of you will reappear in the future, by chance”

It wouldn’t be you, it’d be a replica.

What do people think of this?

It will never happen for the simple reason that not only will the time be different but so too will be the genetics which I don't believe loop, or do they? Perhaps when the universe collapses compresses and rebursts there will be a duplicate.

It would be you ,gentically only perhaps, but it would stil be you. You may not have your feelings or memories (or maybe you would) But you'd be you genetically...

Yup.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

given an infinite amount of time, it absolutely has to happen.



this isn't true, even with an infinite amount of time, eternal recurrance would not neccesarily have to happen. it's kind of like sayin pi eventually has to repeat itself, it's mathematically incorrect.

Some brain cells don't continue to divide after a while.

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 07-02-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

this isn't true, even with an infinite amount of time, eternal recurrance would not neccesarily have to happen. it's kind of like sayin pi eventually has to repeat itself, it's mathematically incorrect.

but we aren't talking about an irrational real ratio that exists only in two dimensions, we are talking about the entire universe over an infinite period of time and unknown dimensions. (although an infinite universe probablydoes not exist)

but even so, a mathamatical comparison could be made. so i ask you, how do you know pi doesn't repeat itself? we haven't calculated pi to infinity. over 10 billion digits does seem like a lot, but infinity isn't just a really big number. it's infinity.

i'm not a mathematician, so correct and explain or reference why i'm wrong.

First of all, the decimal expansion of pi doesn't repeat itself because it's an irrational number, and the mathematical definition of irrational numbers requires that it does not repeat itself (a repeating or terminating decimal is always a rational number). If you would like to see some proofs that pi is irrational, google will give you several results (here's a nice one: http://tinyurl.com/lqhqf).

That's rather self-explanatory, and I thought that by pointing out that despite the finite amount of digits we use to express it's decimals, an exact repetetive sequence will still never come out - so even a finite universe will still never repeat itself exactly given an infinite amount of time. There's a great explanation Georg Simmel gave involving three wheels on a common axis, and you put a mark on each one so as to create a straight line, but the speed of rotation of the wheels was seperate, so that even if the axis was spun for infinity, the wheels will never align again. He uses the example to disprove the exact notion that infinite time does not point to eternal recurrance. I wish I could explain it further, but the proof is in German, and I don't know German.

Hell, I'll give it in case anyone's interested and wants to get it translated:

quote:Georg Simmel - Schopenhauer und Nietzsche VIII

Wollte man nämlich auch zugeben, dass der Weltprozess sich in unendlicher Zeit zwischen endlichen Elementen abspielt, so ist damit noch keineswegs erwiesen, dass eine einmal zustande gekommene Konfiguration dieser Elemente sich irgendwann, auch in unendlicher Zeit, wiederholen müsse; dies kann freilich der Fall sein, aber es ist eine Kombination der Weltelemente denkbar, bei der es nicht stattfindet.1

1 Ich setze den Beweis dafür, weil er spezialistischer Natur ist, aus dem Text heraus, und führe ihn nur für den einfachsten Fall eines Systems, welches nur aus drei Elementen besteht. Man denke sich drei gleich große Räder, welche um eine gemeinsame Achse laufen.

Auf jedem dieser ist ein Punkt markiert, und zwar derart, dass in irgend einem Augenblick diese drei Punkte auf einer Geraden liegen, die durch einen über die Räder gespannten Faden bezeichnet ist. Nun lasse man die Räder rotieren, und zwar so, dass das zweite Rad sich doppelt so schnell dreht wie das erste. Dann werden die beiden auf ihnen markierten Punkte nur in dem Augenblick wieder gemeinsam unter dem Faden liegen, wenn das erste Rad eine Umdrehung, das zweite aber deren zwei gemacht hat; dann wieder nach der zweiten ganzen Umdrehung des ersten und der vierten des zweiten Rades; kurz, die Anfangslage für diese beiden Räder wird ausschließlich nach n ganzen Umdrehungen des ersten und 2 n Umdrehungen des zweiten Rades erfolgen. Dem dritten Rad nun gebe man eine Umdrehungsgeschwindigkeit von 1/p des ersten Rades.

Hat dieses erste also 1, 2, 3 -- n Umdrehungen vollendet, so hat sich das dritte 1/p , 2/p , 3/p -- p /n mal gedreht. Nach der Natur der Zahl p kann keiner dieser Brüche eine ganze Zahl sein. Das heißt, dass das dritte Rad niemals eine ganze Zahl von Umdrehungen vollendet haben wird, wenn das erste Rad eine ganze Zahl vollendet hat. Da es nun aber zu der gleichzeitigen Lage des auf dem ersten und des auf dem zweiten Rade markierten Punktes unterhalb des Fadens nach dem Obigen nur dann kommen kann, wenn das erste Rad jeweils eine ganze Umdrehung gemacht hat, so kann der bezeichnete Punkt des dritten Rades niemals den Faden in dem Augenblick passieren, in dem diese Punkte an den beiden andern Rädern unter ihm liegen.

Das heißt: die Lage der drei Punkte, von der die Bewegung angehoben hat, kann in alle Ewigkeit nicht wiederkehren. Wenn es also nur irgend wo in der Welt drei Bewegungen gibt, welche dem Bewegungsverhältnis dieser drei Räder entsprechen, so können die Kombinationen zwischen ihnen niemals zu ihrer Ausgangsform zurückkehren. Die Endlichkeit in der Zahl der Elemente bewirkt also, selbst wenn für ihre Bewegungen eine unendliche Zeit zur Verfügung steht, durchaus nicht mit Notwendigkeit, dass die Situation irgendeines Momentes sich unverändert wiederhole. - Natürlich kann es sich auch anders verhalten. Die Weltbewegungen könnten so angeordnet sein, dass sie einen sich immer wiederholenden Kreis von Kombinationen durchlaufen. Allein die bloße soeben skizzierte Möglichkeit reicht aus, um den angeblichen Beweis für die ewige Wiederkehr des Gleichen als Illusion darzutun.



[This message has been edited by Shadout Mapes (edited 07-04-2006).]

Is it your body that's aware?

Or is it what causes your body to act differently.

quote:George Simmel - Schopenhauer and Nietz VIII one did not want to admit also that the world process takes place in infinite time between finite elements, then is yet by any means proven with the fact that one had to repeat itself once come configuration of these elements sometime, also in infinite time,; this can be certainly the case, but is conceivable a combination of the world elements, with that it not stattfindet.1 1 I sets the proof for it, because he specialistic nature is, from the text, and leads it only for the simplest case of a system, which consists only of three elements. One imagines equal three large wheels, which run around a common axle. On everyone this is marked one point, in such a manner that in possibly one instant these three points are on a straight line, which is designated by a thread strained over the wheels. Now one lets the wheels rotate, so that the second wheel turns twice as fast like first. Then will the two on them marked points only in the instant under the thread to be again together, if the first wheel a revolution, which made second however their two; then again after the second whole revolution first and fourth of the second Rades; briefly, the start position for these two wheels will take place exclusively after n whole revolutions first and 2 n revolutions of the second Rades. Now one gives a rotational speed of 1/p of the first Rades to the third wheel. This first thus 1, 2, 3 -- n revolutions completed, then if the third 1/p, 2/p, 3/p has itself -- p /n times turned. After the nature of the number of p none of these breaks can be a whole number. That is, that the third wheel will have never completed a whole number of revolutions, if the first wheel completed a whole number. Since it can come now however to the simultaneous situation on first and the point marked on the second Rade underneath the thread to the above one only if the first wheel made a whole revolution in each case, then the designated point of the third Rades can never pass the thread in the instant, in which these points are at the two other wheels under it. That means: the situation of the three points, from which the movement raised, cannot return into all eternity. If there thus only possibly where in the world three movements are, which correspond to the movement relationship of these three wheels, then the combinations between them can never return to their output form. The finiteness in the number of the elements causes thus, if for its movements an infinite time is even available, not at all with necessity that the situation of any moment repeats itself invariably. - natural can behave it also differently. The world movements could be so arranged that they went through themselves a circle of combinations, always repeating. However the bare possibility just outlined is sufficient, in order to add the alleged proof for the eternal return resembling as illusion.



interesting, i always took eternal recurrance for granted. it remains possible, but highly improbable.

quote:In your current life, every cell in your body has died and been replaced many times.” Me being alive for eighteen years is merely an illusion; I have the memories of a dead man.

Not every cell.

What the hell does this have to do with God?

You are god.

Are you the whole? Or only a minute fraction, a part, as much as an atom or an ant!

Just a part.

Yet you are connected with every other part.

Through the awareness of the connection, you are the whole, as well.

quote:Originally posted by Adrenochrome:

What do people think of this?

Your thread title reminded me of the effects of salvia, the 10x extract.

After repeated experiences, just feeling the breathing process while on salvia can really make you realize the outgoing breath is you dying, the incoming breath is your lifeline. You feel it on such a larger scale that it really does feel like you're actually dying with every exhale, and it can be very overwhelming, like the whole universe is coming at you, then going away again... as I imagine you are feeling deeper parts or layers of yourself. But doing it to the extreme, possibly with weed and a friend definitely makes it easy for two people to observe the same phenomenom and draw conclusions. I know I've changed people's lives with that herb...

I pose this not as a proven theory but as the best way I can put the effects into words without stumbling on "infinity" or "this moment repeated in existence over and over", or "feeling one thousand you's" anywhere the mind splits and the cat eats your tongue is where the salvia trip begins. I'd recommend trying the 10x or higher extract to anyone who hasn't at least once.