is every single event in the world a coincidence, or can some things happen that were just meant to be?

Is fate considered believing in a high being?

It depends if you consider fate to be equivalent to strong determinism - fate thereby transformed into little but a highly causal notion with no cracks for causa sui.

It depends on their view of the universe. If, on one hand, they choose the paralell universe theory, then they ought to belive that everything possible will happen to them, and thus there is a fate that everything will happen to them; it's just a matter of which conciousness is in which universe at a given time. If, on the other hand, they believe in a linear universe theory, they ought to either believe in a) a non-spirutal idea of karma, or b) the effect of chaos theory on future events, which in both cases, there is no predestined fate.

Edit: However, in any form of belief in a universe, there are certain statistical "fates" that are nearly inevitable. Thus, take the idea that the sun will burn out. The universe has a statistical fate, but not a personal fate.

And a question: Why is it that the universe hereby stated followes these statistical fates? Is it mere random chance that the universe developed these elaborate laws of physics rather then it being completely random?

[This message has been edited by erbus (edited 11-05-2005).]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

To answer your question, I'm atheist, and no, I do not believe in fate. For something to "be meant to happen" sounds ridiculous to me.

Just my opinion.

This relies pretty heavily on how you define fate.

I think a pretty conventional definition of fate would be some kind of external influence on your life that has an element of conscious intent. If you believe in that, you believe in some sort of consciousness that exists in the universe beyond individual human beings, that on it's own is approaching a conventional definition of god.

It's completely valid to reject any kind of non-human consciousness in the universe, and assume that our place in it is an entirely absurd relation. But ask yourself this: does your personal idea of what "god" means have to be the same as the way "god" has been explained by traditional religions? Is it possible that there exist forms of consciousness beyond the sort generated by biological computers, or might it exist in other mediums as well?

However if you're willing to at least accept the (admittedly untestable) belief that there is something metaphysical about consciousness, and that perhaps individual consciousness can influence statistical probablity of material events, or that there is some form of interaction between individual consciousness on a group level, you might be interested in reading about Carl Jung's concept of synchronicity: http://www.friesian.com/jung.htm

Edit: the main site sounds a little dodgy, but this link is probably more relevent for explaining synchronicity: http://www.strangemag.com/mysteryofchance.html

[This message has been edited by imperfectcircle (edited 11-05-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by WolfinSheepsClothing:

http ://en.wiki pedia.org/ wiki/Deter minism (http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Determ inism)

It's just been made aware that Wikipedia is a usernet that can be altered at the whim of anyone's desire. How are we supposed to believe this is a reputable source when at any given time, fact, or fact-so-called, can be manipulated by the bias of any given individual?

That wasn't an attack on you using Wikipedia, I'm just shocked that anyone can edit it. That is just plain disturbing to me.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

It's just been made aware that Wikipedia is a usernet that can be altered at the whim of anyone's desire. How are we supposed to believe this is a reputable source when at any given time, fact, or fact-so-called, can be manipulated by the bias of any given individual?

That wasn't an attack on you using Wikipedia, I'm just shocked that anyone can edit it. That is just plain disturbing to me.





For instance, I just clicked on Determinstic and changed the word 'human' to 'monkey butt' just to prove a point. I don't think I should use Wiki as a reference any longer.

quote:Originally posted by Chaz:

To answer your question, I'm atheist, and no, I do not believe in fate. For something to "be meant to happen" sounds ridiculous to me.

Just my opinion.

To believe in fate, requires faith. Athesits are supposedly faithless.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

To believe in fate, requires faith. Athesits are supposedly faithless.

True, but there's no reason faith has to mean belief in any god that has been described by a scripture-based belief system. Faith simply means accepting the possibility of forces in the universe that haven't been explained yet by purely rational means.

A purely rationally minded person can have faith, for example an initial rational analysis of consciousness leads you to a belief in solipsism. How can any person prove that reality isn't a simple figment of their mind? It's like trying to prove the existence of the past without using any artifacts that exist in the present (objects existing in the present don't exist in the past, any argument that they necessarily existed in the past is unfalsifiable).

And yet most atheists would claim they believe in the past, and that external reality exists beyond their personal awareness of it. I mean the moon still exists when you aren't looking at it. Right?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

To believe in fate, requires faith. Athesits are supposedly faithless.

Strong determinism is not a faith-based position. Don't be foolish.

hyroglyphx: Due to the large community at Wikipedia, vandalism, although common, is usually summarily fixed, and vanadalizers are usually banned. also, every version of every page is archive,d so if somebody deleted everything on a page, it can easily be reverted at the click of a button. Since Wikipedia deals only with knowledge, everything relies on external sources. Basically, it's a system of checks and balances. Whether you think this system is sound enough to validate it is your choice.

I believe in fate. I believe in a clockwork universe. I don't know much about quantum mechanics yet though, but for now I don't believe in quantum uncertainty, just that 'we can never know what is going to happen' rather than 'the universe is not certainly going to develop in some exact way'.

My question is, given free will, is it possible for a Christian (I don't know what other belief-systems have to say about free will) to believe in fate?

quote:Originally posted by Shadout Mapes:

hyroglyphx: Due to the large community at Wikipedia, vandalism, although common, is usually summarily fixed, and vanadalizers are usually banned. also, every version of every page is archive,d so if somebody deleted everything on a page, it can easily be reverted at the click of a button. Since Wikipedia deals only with knowledge, everything relies on external sources. Basically, it's a system of checks and balances. Whether you think this system is sound enough to validate it is your choice.

Thank you for the clarification. I was beginning to wonder if it could be trusted as a reputable source.

Sure, I don't see why not. Atheism (and other related belief systems) aren't set in stone. Different atheists believe in a lot of different things,

And also, about Wikipedia, it's a very reputable source, and if you've noticed, you're "monkey butt" thing has already been fixed. They surprisingly fast at keeping things right. Wikipedia is one of my favorite sites, it has information on just about anything you can think of.

If your ever bored, just go there and search for something random, you'll be surprised how quickly you move from topic to topic. I dunno, maybe that just me... heh

If you believe in Fate, then where's free will?

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

If you believe in Fate, then where's free will?

Free will is not Biblically supported, and a strongly deterministic model of the universe (as expounded by my rather brilliant ladyfriend, though it is not without its problems) denies that possibility on a secular level.

HellShellz, Atheists have rational faith in themselves…

Fate is an interesting topic.. If you sit by a tree and witness a gust of wind, you’ll notice that the leaves fall in a very chaotic and almost random pattern… Leaves will probably never fall again in that pattern… However, if we were able to travel back to that tree at the precise moment in time that the gust of wind blew, those leaves would fall in exactly the same pattern… This is because the influences on those leaves falling would also recur… You could say that the fate of those leaves were set in stone…

As conscious thought at times appears impossible to predict it’s easy to think that fate is just as impossible… Humans in history, so far, have only been able to escape the Fate imposed on them by other human’s expectations…

Speaking as an atheist, I wouldn't say I had 'faith'. I don't even understand what 'faith' is supposed to mean, except maybe accepting something you don't understand, which I try to do my best to aviod doing, even when it's something I know I can safely accept.