How can athiests have morals? Without an absolute, namely a god, to give morals and to determine what is right and what is wrong, everything becomes relative. If everything is relative, person A would not be able to tell person B what he can or can not do. Without a god to dictate righteousness, how can there be any kind of morality whatsoever?

If morals are dependent simply on the god and doctrine then they are relative, as different religions have different moral guidelines.

If morals transcend god then you don't need a religion to be moral.

In such a world, lacking an absolute, wouldn't person B decide for themselves what was right or wrong?

It's not relative, to some extent there is absoluteness. This is obvious.

If you break a promise, and everyone does the same, there will be no purpose to keeping promises anymore. The wisdom of Immanuel Kant!

It is philosophy that created religion.

In fact, most of the people who started or studied religion are usually philosophers.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

How can athiests have morals? Without an absolute, namely a god, to give morals and to determine what is right and what is wrong, everything becomes relative. If everything is relative, person A would not be able to tell person B what he can or can not do. Without a god to dictate righteousness, how can there be any kind of morality whatsoever?

I've linked to this before, but this topic keeps coming up. Read this carefully for a very elaborate answer to your question : http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html

Lets assume christianity is not right. If christianity is not right then christian morals are not based on an absolute God but on what a non absolute human made up, making them equal to atheistic morals. The only difference is they make the dishonest claim that a God handed them down.

So it all comes down to whether you can function as a mature adult without the need to believe a God daddy is watching over your shoulder.

Matter of fact if you read the bible you can see these "absolute" morals change over time to better match society.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

How can athiests have morals? Without an absolute, namely a god, to give morals and to determine what is right and what is wrong, everything becomes relative. If everything is relative, person A would not be able to tell person B what he can or can not do. Without a god to dictate righteousness, how can there be any kind of morality whatsoever?

Morality can be, and often is, relative even within religions.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

I've linked to this before, but this topic keeps coming up. Read this carefully for a very elaborate answer to your question : ht tp://www.e bonmusings .org/atheism/carrot&stick.html (http: //www.ebon musings.or g/atheism/ carrot&sti ck.html)



that's a good read, thanks

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

I've linked to this before, but this topic keeps coming up. Read this carefully for a very elaborate answer to your question : ht tp://www.e bonmusings .org/atheism/carrot&stick.html (http: //www.ebon musings.or g/atheism/ carrot&sti ck.html)



Excellent article.

However, I had one thing to point out. And that is, that no action is altruistic, even those which seem to be done in the best interests of others, are done with the intention of making ourselves feel better.

And one other thing, Elfstone, are you happy?

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

How can athiests have morals? Without an absolute, namely a god, to give morals and to determine what is right and what is wrong, everything becomes relative. If everything is relative, person A would not be able to tell person B what he can or can not do. Without a god to dictate righteousness, how can there be any kind of morality whatsoever?

Atheists can have morals because morals can be arbitrary. There is no universal rule that says "MORALS MUST BE HANDED DOWN FROM GOD."

Atheists don't need a God to dictate righteousness; they decide for themselves. This isn't really even a good discussion because the answer is so glaring.

ahahahahahahahahahaha

The reason atheists can have morals is because it is within the capacity of humans to create their own set of ethics outside of cracker-ass doctrines.

Second of all religion is the apex of intellectual sloth.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Atheists can have morals because morals can be arbitrary. There is no universal rule that says "MORALS MUST BE HANDED DOWN FROM GOD."





However, when they come down from an absolute being, then that would make them absolute and thus necessary for everyone to follow. There would be no way to legislate laws or punish apparent wrongdoers if everyone was deciding their own morals for themselves.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

Excellent article.

However, I had one thing to point out. And that is, that no action is altruistic, even those which seem to be done in the best interests of others, are done with the intention of making ourselves feel better.

Or maybe it is in our best interests in the long run as well. It still is more honest than doing it to collect "heaven points".

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



And one other thing, Elfstone, are you happy?

Is that a lame insinuation that atheists can't be happy or something? I see no relevance at all to the topic, and if you are to assume anything, back it up.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



However, when they come down from an absolute being, then that would make them absolute and thus necessary for everyone to follow. There would be no way to legislate laws or punish apparent wrongdoers if everyone was deciding their own morals for themselves.

There is an absolute standard, as absolute as we can rely on, and that is human nature. If morality is supposed to serve a supreme being's unknown purposes, then it remains as relative as our guesses of those purposes. There is nothing absolute about divinity to rely morality on.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

There is an absolute standard, as absolute as we can rely on, and that is human nature. If morality is supposed to serve a supreme being's unknown purposes, then it remains as relative as our guesses of those purposes. There is nothing absolute about divinity to rely morality on.

Ah yes, but take the Christian God, for example. According to Christians, he is absolute. The morality proposed by Christians IS to serve his purposes that they claim to know. Therefore, if you were to base your morality on the Christian God's laws, then you can do no wrong. In their eyes, at least.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Is that a lame insinuation that atheists can't be happy or something? I see no relevance at all to the topic, and if you are to assume anything, back it up.

In the article that you linked to, it says that the highest good is happiness. Have you gotten there as an athiest? I'm not insinuating anything. Just that you're an athiest, I assume, and since, apparently the highest good to be achieved is happiness, I want to know if you're happy? Are you?

I too believe that the highest good is happiness and I'm looking for a religion, or purpose, or whatever, that will make me happy. Hence, the question.

Are you?

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:



Atheists don't need a God to dictate righteousness; they decide for themselves. This isn't really even a good discussion because the answer is so glaring.

Good point. But atheists can't even claim that they are fully responsible for their morals. In the absence of God dictating moral standards, there would still be societal standards to live by. Morality can only be judged by behavior. Without people (our peers, not God) to judge our right and wrongdoings, obtaining a good set of morals wouldn't even be our #1 endeavor.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

However, when they come down from an absolute being, then that would make them absolute and thus necessary for everyone to follow.

If morals are really absolute as you say then it would be physically impossible to go against them.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

There would be no way to legislate laws or punish apparent wrongdoers if everyone was deciding their own morals for themselves.

Ever heard of the Judicial and Legislative systems? Ever heard of courts and juries? Everybody does decide their own relative morals and yet the system works.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

I'm not insinuating anything. Just that you're an athiest, I assume, and since, apparently the highest good to be achieved is happiness, I want to know if you're happy? Are you?

That is a textbook example of how to insinuate.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

I too believe that the highest good is happiness and I'm looking for a religion, or purpose, or whatever, that will make me happy. Hence, the question.

Are you?

Hilarious! I couldn't leave out the third time you asked the same question. No insinuation here!

Anyway, athiesm does not give you a purpose or morals, and it does not provide a way to make you happy. It isn't a full lifestyle, telling you what you should do at any given point in time. It just tells you not to believe in any religious dogma.

Athiests get their morals from separate ideologies. In fact, their morals could come (and often do come) from a religion if the dogma is filtered out.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:



However, when they come down from an absolute being, then that would make them absolute and thus necessary for everyone to follow. There would be no way to legislate laws or punish apparent wrongdoers if everyone was deciding their own morals for themselves.



You're incorrect, you are simply confused about what a law and a moral is.

A law is something legislated by society to help it function.

A moral is a rule in your code of ethics that help you to act and function.

Laws can be enforced you don't have to follow them but their are consequences when you do.

all clear?

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

Ah yes, but take the Christian God, for example. According to Christians, he is absolute. The morality proposed by Christians IS to serve his purposes that they claim to know. Therefore, if you were to base your morality on the Christian God's laws, then you can do no wrong. In their eyes, at least.

You can count the different versions of christianity out there and then count their differences. I see nothing reliable about so ambiguous ancient texts to base my morality on.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

In the article that you linked to, it says that the highest good is happiness. Have you gotten there as an athiest? I'm not insinuating anything. Just that you're an athiest, I assume, and since, apparently the highest good to be achieved is happiness, I want to know if you're happy? Are you?

I too believe that the highest good is happiness and I'm looking for a religion, or purpose, or whatever, that will make me happy. Hence, the question.

Are you?

Sarter already replied about this. I just want to add that your personal beliefs about god and morality can help you be happier because they affect your behaviour and your relationships, but there are much more factors to happiness than this. There's no "belief" or something that magicks up happiness for you. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly selling a product.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

In the article that you linked to, it says that the highest good is happiness. Have you gotten there as an athiest? I'm not insinuating anything. Just that you're an athiest, I assume, and since, apparently the highest good to be achieved is happiness, I want to know if you're happy? Are you?

I too believe that the highest good is happiness and I'm looking for a religion, or purpose, or whatever, that will make me happy. Hence, the question.

Are you?

I'm atheist, and I think one of the happiest people living. There are so few things I would change.

A study done by a british group showed that buddhists are on average the happiest people, many buddhists are also atheists.

Does that count?

Happiness is a clear head and a broad perspective.

I am 1% god, do you believe me?

My name is Jesus aka Moax.

Oh and im athiast.

[This message has been edited by Moax (edited 09-28-2005).]

God is supposed to be happy and he is an atheist.*

Thus God is evidence atheists can be happy.



*If for some reason someone wants to argue God isn't an atheist, just tell me what God he worships above him?

So god cant believe in his religion?

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

God is supposed to be happy and he is an atheist.*

Thus God is evidence atheists can be happy.



*If for some reason someone wants to argue God isn't an atheist, just tell me what God he worships above him?

a-theism.

Lack of religion.

Disbelief in god.

I don't think god disbelieves in himself.

Nice logic BTW. that sort of fuzzy thinking is EXACTLY HOW THE REFORMATION HAPPENED!

Anathema to all heretics, anathema! Error has no rights, anathema!

quote:Originally posted by Issue313:

a-theism.

Lack of religion.

Disbelief in god.

I don't think god disbelieves in himself.



The definition of atheism isn't "disbelief in yourself" is it? That's what you're saying it is when you say "I don't think god disbelieves in himself".

He has to lack a belief in a god, to be an atheist; something that is a "god" to him.

assuming there is a god

quote:Originally posted by Issue313:

that sort of fuzzy thinking is EXACTLY HOW THE REFORMATION HAPPENED!

Protestantism > Catholicism

I have morals . I have nothing binding me to these morals other than society and karma. I don't have any friends, being mean to people isn't going to get me them. Knamean? Killing your brother is probably going to make you want to kill me. I don't want to die, so I would be working against myself by increasing my chances of dying soon. Got it?

These morals are good things because the more people that follow them, the happier everyone will be. I like to be happy and have those around me be happy.

The arguments may sound simplistic, but this is the stupidest discussion I've ever taken part in.

And yes I'm an atheist. But that doesn't really matter if you read my argument.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

How can athiests have morals? Without an absolute, namely a god, to give morals and to determine what is right and what is wrong, everything becomes relative. If everything is relative, person A would not be able to tell person B what he can or can not do. Without a god to dictate righteousness, how can there be any kind of morality whatsoever?

Morals are, "To each his own." Truth is God's way, and God's way is the HIGH way. Ya know, that's like saying, "How can christians claim to be christians, agree that fornication is wrong, but not see that masturbation is a sin of the heart, no greater or less of a sin than actally just acting it out." Because of their lack of knowledge of the word of God. I don't know why you'd think Christians have such high standard morals, because that isn't true. The faithful to God do. I know Atheist that don't masturbate, and Christians that do. It goes along with the lines of, "O Generation of vipers, how can you being evil speak Good things, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, a good man out of the good treasures of the heart brings forth good things, and evil man out of the evil treasure of the heart brings forth evil things." Well, being that the bible is written to the Church, Jesus is talking to us there, not the heathens. So how can we being evil, pretend to be Good? That's called being deceptive, and furthermore, it's identifying with the Adversary, Lucifer. This is why, faith without works is dead, You LIVE what you REALLY believe. If an atheist really believes murder is wrong, they're not going to murder someone. Likewise with a Christian.

We're no better than they are, we've just accepted a free gift, so be careful about becoming judgemental towards them. Because, The devil is also the accuser. Jesus said he died for the world, not just the Church. He came to call the sinner to repentence. They're just as much loved by God, as you are.

[This message has been edited by HellzShellz (edited 10-07-2005).]

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

This is why, faith without works is dead, You LIVE what you REALLY believe. If an atheist really believes murder is wrong, they're not going to murder someone. Likewise with a Christian.

We're no better than they are, we've just accepted a free gift, so be careful about becoming judgemental towards them. Because, The devil is also the accuser. Jesus said he died for the world, not just the Church. He came to call the sinner to repentence. They're just as much loved by God, as you are.



But, saying that we live what we believe, doesn't really have anything to do with right and wrong. Because, while you have an absolute to judge by, that being God and apparently spoken word, others don't. Some witch doctors really believe that killing and eating people is really good for them. And while it's good for them, if there's no absolute like a God, I can not tell him not to do that. Because he is worshipping his god in the same way you worship your god by praying and whatever else the hell you do.

No, I'm not judgmental towards anyone. I've seen things from a Christian perspective, now I'm trying to see things from an athiest perspective. Yes, I lost my faith LONG ago. Felt pretty damn good too.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

But, saying that we live what we believe, doesn't really have anything to do with right and wrong. Because, while you have an absolute to judge by, that being God and apparently spoken word, others don't. Some witch doctors really believe that killing and eating people is really good for them. And while it's good for them, if there's no absolute like a God, I can not tell him not to do that. Because he is worshipping his god in the same way you worship your god by praying and whatever else the hell you do.

No, I'm not judgmental towards anyone. I've seen things from a Christian perspective, now I'm trying to see things from an athiest perspective. Yes, I lost my faith LONG ago. Felt pretty damn good too.

Well, Yea. You live what you really believe. If dude believed he should kill people and eat them, so be it. Let him do it, but when he does, if he's BROKEN THE LAW, HE ANSWERS TO THE LAW. The LAW will JUDGE him.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Well, Yea. You live what you really believe. If dude believed he should kill people and eat them, so be it. Let him do it, but when he does, if he's BROKEN THE LAW, HE ANSWERS TO THE LAW. The LAW will JUDGE him.

And what was the Law based on? If we're talking about Western law, then in all probability, it was based to a certain degree on the Ten Commandments, which were given from a God, which would be an absolute. Even in tribal Africa in places where the witch doctor made the Law, it came from an apparently absolute God or spirit or being.

My point is that unless there is an absolute to dictate orders or whatever, all morality can only be defined on an individual basis. If morals are decided on an individual basis, laws cannot be based on an individual's morals.

Religious people have Gods, athiests do not. Religious people have their morals dictated to them through their "mouthpiece of God', athiests do not. It would be difficult for an athiest to judge others morals, or tell others what their morals should be, if he did not have an absolute, other than his own opinion.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

However, I had one thing to point out. And that is, that no action is altruistic, even those which seem to be done in the best interests of others, are done with the intention of making ourselves feel better.



This is not true. Let's say my brother needs a ride to school, but I rather watch my MOnday morning cartoons. But I decide to get up from what I really want to do, and take him to school. I did not take him to school because it would make me feel better, but rather because my brother is dependent on me to take him to school where he needs to go.

What would really make me feel better is to relax, eat cereal and watch television, or maybe even sleep in more.

There are many other things you can do that wouldn't make you feel better doing them, or doing them cause you want to. There are some decision you have to make or things you have to do, because they have to be done, not because its in your best interest, but maybe in someone else's.

You can argue you all you want about it, and try to find a way to say I did something cause it was in my better interest, but I will tell you that not everything is. You just think it is.

So whats so good about morals?