Me and my friends at school were first fighting about transformers and gundums being exactly the same, when I decided to bring up the pope. I then asked is it possible for the pope to become and angel which lead one of my friends to go on a long rant about how he can't. Tell me what you think.

I don't believe he can. I don't think anyone can become an angel actually.

I think DOGMA talks about the subject.

Humans don't become angels because we're higher on the heirarchy than angels. They're our servants and they don't have free will like we do. So, the question is more: what do we become when we die?

There's a team of scientist on this question somewhere in Berkeley, I imagine.

Cheers,

Lost

well, our spirits/soul, will go to heaven, when we die, and at judgement day, our bodies will, and in heaven, we will get our new bodies, it is a physical thing, heaven, after judgement day.

I know this is off topic, but: ck_psy_sjk, did you used to be on CGR?

His creepy face would look good on the angel of death.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Humans don't become angels because we're higher on the heirarchy than angels. They're our servants and they don't have free will like we do. So, the question is more: what do we become when we die?

There's a team of scientist on this question somewhere in Berkeley, I imagine.

Cheers,

Lost

Well that's part of the problem with religion. If angels have no free will, Lucifer should have been unable to sin unless God had wanted him too.

^ That's a damn good point actually

I am sure it has been mademany time before and someone has an answer that will preserve God's omnipotence.

Yes, simply that the Christian perception of Lucifer as a being contrary to the will of God is the creation of folktales. Satan, the adversary, is just God's prosecutor. He tempts and opposes us, just as he did Job, but only to fulfill the will of God.

so satans a good guy!?!? woah~! DUDE!

Well that creates another problem, because if people end up going to Hell, then they are effectively enduring eternal suffering as a result of Gods wishes. This means God does not love all men, only those who worship him.

Sounds like the practises of a third world dictator to me.

quote:Originally posted by JackthePumpkinKing:

Well that's part of the problem with religion. If angels have no free will, Lucifer should have been unable to sin unless God had wanted him too.

(For the record, I'm atheist, so I'm not arguing the existance of god)

Sin didn't exist before humans, so technically Lucifer never sinned. He was granted temporary freewill by god so god could be advised by him. Lucifer stated his opinion and because he was gods most beloved and trusted angel he was granted permission to prove god wrong. At least, that's how the story goes.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by imperfectcircle:

Well that creates another problem, because if people end up going to Hell, then they are effectively enduring eternal suffering as a result of Gods wishes. This means God does not love all men, only those who worship him.

Sounds like the practises of a third world dictator to me.

This also brings up another quandry. If all of our suffering is caused as this, the direct will of God to allow an angel to create sin and temptation and God's decision not to crush it, then all suffering in the world can be pointed at God as the ultimate cause of it all. I came to (and refused to accept) that conclusion while I was a Christian and it was what drove me away from the fatih because I found it irreconcilable. The obvious solution now seems to me to be that damnation would not last forever, that it is educatory in nature and, once it's done, it never happens again.

Considering just how many stories there are though, how on earth can fundamentalist bible bashers be so certain of their beliefs?

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

He was granted temporary freewill by god so god could be advised by him. Lucifer stated his opinion and because he was gods most beloved and trusted angel he was granted permission to prove god wrong. At least, that's how the story goes.

I am suprised that's not how fundies say that our free will does not take away God's omnipotence. If he could take it away at any time he is still in control but chooses not to be.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

I am suprised that's not how fundies say that our free will does not take away God's omnipotence. If he could take it away at any time he is still in control but chooses not to be.

That's because most "fundies" don't know what they're talking about.

Cheers,

Lost

In Xian mythology, angels are a whole other class of entities.

quote:Originally posted by Gorloche:

This also brings up another quandry. If all of our suffering is caused as this, the direct will of God to allow an angel to create sin and temptation and God's decision not to crush it, then all suffering in the world can be pointed at God as the ultimate cause of it all. I came to (and refused to accept) that conclusion while I was a Christian and it was what drove me away from the fatih because I found it irreconcilable. The obvious solution now seems to me to be that damnation would not last forever, that it is educatory in nature and, once it's done, it never happens again.

It strikes me that this kind of belief leads to the idea that any "hell" which exists is in fact this world, which then leads to the idea of reincarnation until we have learned to be "good".

That, too, would be a temporal punishment, as I said, though yours is more specific.

And I agree, fundamentalists normally don't know what they are saying, only that it is how THEY feel.

Souls of human beings and angels are entirely different beings.

We can never become angels, and angels can never become souls.

Being like God is what we all should be doing. We should emulate God's perfect character. However, we should not crave to be God. God is always on the throne and nothing will ever dethrone Him. Satan didn't realize this.

Satan's sin included the following:

1. He sinned in his heart by coveting God's power.

2. He planned on being higher than God.

3. He planned on controlling God's angels and kingdom.

Isaiah 14:13 - "You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain."

4. He planned on being God.

Isaiah 14:14 - "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

quote:Posted by Lost Cause:

Lucifer stated his opinion and because he was gods most beloved and trusted angel he was granted permission to prove god wrong.

I haven't seen a scripture yet that supports what you say here.

An Account of Satan's Fall

Ezekiel 28:13-19 - You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.' "

I don't see any "granting" of opinion to prove God wrong in here. Lucifer had free will from the beginning of his existence.

He GREW proud over time, because he realized how beautiful and important he was.

Do you have some scripture that contradicts this, and supports what you have said ?

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 05-18-2005).]

I remembered listening to coast to coast am a while back and they had someone discusing how the Jewish and Christian veiws of Heavan, Hell, death and such have changed over time and they pointed out this passage.



"Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer the door. When she recognized Peter's voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, "Peter is at the door!"

You're out of your mind," they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, "It must be his angel."

Acts 12:13-15 NIV

It seems that at that time people believed that people could be angels or that people had gaurdian angels that sound exactly like them.

From what ive heard, mostly from some crazy pyschics like sylvia brown on tv, angels arent ppl. Angels were "born" angels, they never lived on earth.

I don't know, I mean youve left it a bit late to be digging up his body by now.

Plus even if you do attach the wings, rotten cadavers make for highly unimpressive angels.

Seriously, Its unlikely, because humans, even popes, are on a different plane to gods messengers. Bet then this is god so anything is possible right? (answer no.)