Okay, let's assume for a minute that Christianity is correct.

Lucifer (the devil, satan, etc.) runs hell, no? It seems to me that if Lucifer is in fact the "ruler" of hell, then hell should not be all pain and fire.

From what I've read/heard in churches, satan doesn't so much get off on torturing people; no, it's all about doing things so he (she/it/whatever) can look at god and go "ha, looky what I can convince people to do motherfucker!" Because, after all, Lucifer used to be god's main angel. My guess is that make's him pretty damn powerful, rivaling the power of god. All he wanted to do was take over.

So, I don't really think hell's a punishment, it's just going to hang out with satan for eternity. Satan rules hell and I don't think he's going to let god tell him how to decorate. And, wouldn't it piss god off more (seemingly Lucifer's oobjective) if the people in hell were having all sorts of fun and NOT writhing in agony? Yes, yes it would. Based on this logic, I see hell more as Vegas than a burning pit of pain...fun, prostitutin, gambling, drugs, oh yeah.

This makes sense to me...hopefully there's someone else out there for whom it makes sense. But, I'm in no way an expert on the bible and all of that, so some input would be nice.

quote:Originally posted by ruptured_duck:

Lucifer (the devil, satan, etc.) runs hell, no?

No. He will be condemned there.

I think that Christians beleive that their God has complete control over everything, included Satan and Hell. (I'm takin a Christian perspective on this).

I don't think Satan in that sense would really be in charge, just merely a puppet as you might say. Who knows, mabye Satans eternal punishment is the burden of punishing others?

This is where the line between Satan and God is fuzzy, for if God controls Satans every action, then is he not essentially Satan as well? And if he DOESN'T contol Satan, how could he be all powerful if there is someone who isn't under this will? Someone that can openly mock him and get away with it?

Very dualistic. I don't beleive that God can be all powerful, and NOT be the cause of our eternal punishment.

quote:ruptured_duck

You SERIOUSLY need to read up on the Christian religion. None of the stuff you've brought up thus far is accurate.

The Satan and Lucifer are two wholly different indivisuals. The Satan (Satarial, Satanial, Samael, Sammuel, or which ever name you choose to call him) is far older than Lucifer, not the same type of angel as Lucifer, and he was not killed by God.

I'd say more but I don't see the point, so I'll go now. However, if you ask me something then I'll respond.

I wasn't trying to be an ass, what I said was/is simply true. Don't draw your conclusions of things on heresay, it's not intelligent and stating such things on Totse will cause the jackasses on this site to team up on you and chew you out.

well imo, your thought process is flawed, but whose isnt.

where do people get the idea that satan (or lucifer, the morning star, sam haden, bob marley, whichever one 'is in charge' if any) would be nice? hes not selling real estate. i view it as more of a game between good and evil, the winner keeps their pawn's soul, god treats his 'pieces' fairly with a good reward through hard work and determination, satan treats his 'pieces' deceptively, with only torture for a reward.

think about it, wouldnt it be cool to lure people to your side, promise them happiness and candy, all they have to do is kill their neighbor, whatever, then BAM, chase them around a huge field with a swarm of bees for all eternity. personnally it think itd be funny as hell.

quote:Originally posted by Krispy:

I don't beleive that God can be all powerful, and NOT be the cause of our eternal punishment.

God is the cause of eternal punishment because He is all powerful.

NEWS FLASH! God doesn't exist.

We now return you to your normal scheduled programming.

Everybody is going to hell according to everyone. Cept for buddhists. They kick ass.

quote:The Satan and Lucifer are two wholly different indivisuals. The Satan (Satarial, Satanial, Samael, Sammuel, or which ever name you choose to call him) is far older than Lucifer, not the same type of angel as Lucifer, and he was not killed by God.

I'd say more but I don't see the point, so I'll go now. However, if you ask me something then I'll respond.

Would you be so kind as to explain the difference for me?

I'd never given the whole lucifer/satan thing much thought before but now that i have i find it extreamely confusing.

I know i should read the bible one day...

quote:Originally posted by ruptured_duck:

...And, wouldn't it piss god off more (seemingly Lucifer's oobjective) if the people in hell were having all sorts of fun and NOT writhing in agony? Yes, yes it would...

No, No it wouldn't. If God created humans, why would he want to see them in pain? I believe that God would be more pissed If we burned for all eternity, rather than partying.

so not the intellectual conversation i thought i was coming to...

that actually does make sense to me. ive never even thought of that....

I think Hell is a scare tactic used by Christian religious officials to scare people into doing their bidding. That was especially apparent before the Protestant Reformation in the Catholic Church.

PS: Read "Sermon on the Mount" by Emmet Fox if you believe in Hell.

[This message has been edited by $tinger (edited 02-15-2005).]

I think that's good logic. In Paradise Lost Satan's motivations were enunciated simply: do whatever vexes (milton probably said it "vexeth") God, and it would vex God to hell (no pun) if hell was a great place.

The idea of why hell would be awful, though, is that being out of the light of God is torturous. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But I like the logic. I'm just not sure whether Satan has control over the domain; but referring to Milton, who seems to be the expert on Satan, he does. We have to use Milton because Satan is hardly in the bible (is he at all?) and so Milton seems to be the most in touch with standard Christiantiy, or at least knew his shit.

quote:Originally posted by Krispy:

I think that Christians beleive that their God has complete control over everything, included Satan and Hell. (I'm takin a Christian perspective on this).

I don't think Satan in that sense would really be in charge, just merely a puppet as you might say. Who knows, mabye Satans eternal punishment is the burden of punishing others?

This is where the line between Satan and God is fuzzy, for if God controls Satans every action, then is he not essentially Satan as well? And if he DOESN'T contol Satan, how could he be all powerful if there is someone who isn't under this will? Someone that can openly mock him and get away with it?

Very dualistic. I don't beleive that God can be all powerful, and NOT be the cause of our eternal punishment.

I am a christian. The bible says God 'can'run everything, but put things how they are, and lets things be. The bible says people have the freedom to make thier own discisions, and be judged in the end. The idea of the devil being in everything bad is a fairly old beliefe that isn't carried by too many christians anymore.

Calling the devil the source of all evil is a cop-out; it is a way to avoid being at fault for anything.

hell is a kingdom without a ruler, where the subjects bow before the king regardless.

naturally, heaven is the opposite, where the king has no subjects, nor the need for them.

quote:Originally posted by ruptured_duck:

Would you be so kind as to explain the difference for me?



I did.

Vintage Metalligod:

quote:The Satan (Satarial, Satanial, Samael, Sammuel, or which ever name you choose to call him) is far older than Lucifer, not the same type of angel as Lucifer, and he was not killed by God.

To add to that: Satan was/is not a Guardian Angel, Lucifer was. Lucifer didn't 'Accuse' God of anything, the Satan did. Lucifer's folly was the fact that he thought himself greater than God, and so he tried to claim heaven as his domain, so he 'took' the throne of God.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 02-16-2005).]

Hmm..my mistake, I'd always thought they were synonyms.

quote:Originally posted by ruptured_duck:

Hmm..my mistake, I'd always thought they were synonyms.

There's no need for appologies. You didn't DO anything wrong, you simply didn't know something. Not your fault, just continue to choose to learn things you don't know, but should know.

Nice thread.