As a child I was brought up as a christian. (baptist) I've always struggled with what the christian bible says, namely that unless you accept jesus christ as your savior, you are going to hell. i don't believe this. i refuse to.

let us define the christian hell:

*****

1. often Hell The abode of condemned souls and devils in some religions; the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan.

2. A state of separation from God; exclusion from God's presence.

*****

I tend to like the 2nd definition more, but how could the following people, according to the christian doctrine, be "damned" to hell.

1) Mohandas Gandhi. (a Hindu)

2) Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso (a Budhhist)

3) Many many ordinary Muslims around the world.

These people are going to hell? I cannot accept that. These people have lived much more exemplary lives than I have so far.

What gives?

They may have but they havnt led perfect lives... and so fall short of Gods glory...

what do you consider a perfect life?!?

I agree, 2lowfor0. But Christians would come back and say, "one cannot reach salvation through good works alone". According to Christians, 77% of the world's population is going to Hell (some would place that number even higher, since they believe some of their fellow Christians are also going to Hell, because they do not follow the rules of their sect, etc.)

So, I guess according to Christians, it doesn't matter how much good you do for your fellow man, God selfishly (IMO) wants you to serve and recognize him alone. So, if you don't believe in Jesus, you're screwed, no matter what you do.

is Jesus God?

or just a prophet?

He is suposed to be part of God.

the holy trinity.

father, son & holy ghost.

please elaborate.

Well, the real point is that you are a faggot.

Literally, the fact that you accept phalluses up your anus already bars you from God's holy kingdom.

I repeat, you are a queer, and God hates queers.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Well, the real point is that you are a faggot.

Literally, the fact that you accept phalluses up your anus already bars you from God's holy kingdom.

I repeat, you are a queer, and God hates queers.

No. You are totally and completely wrong. There is no god. Get it right.

Well, it makes sense... God sent Jesus in order to allow us to cheat the system, someone who never hears of him gets treated fairly... which apparently, means if they are not a genuine jesus, they go to hell.

I remember somewhere in the bible it mentions that a person will be judged by the law, even if they have not heard it.

But many Jews will say that blood isn't necesarry for forgiveness, its more actually genuinely regretting the action, and not repeating it, or somesuch.

So I suppose it might be possible that someone might not end up in hell, even without the whole savior thing.

Course, now we get into where this line of thought falls apart "no one comes to the father except through me". That sorta kills it.

But what about people who lived in the old testament?

Meh... personally I think the book of John is a piece of crap, but thats just me.

Its just... errhhh... Jesus said in Mathew that he didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it.

So does that mean that things have not changed, and what would have gotten you into heaven in the old testament still aplies, but Jesus is a free ticket?

Gees, I hate crap like this.

I just put more questions!

Personally, I find that Judaism is a lot more internally consistant than Christianity.

quote:Originally posted by aTribeCalledSean:

Well, the real point is that you are a faggot.

Literally, the fact that you accept phalluses up your anus already bars you from God's holy kingdom.

I repeat, you are a queer, and God hates queers.

Wow, 1600 posts , 4 months. Looks like you're the faggot.

If you can't contribute to a thread, then just stay the fuck out of it ok? You fucking tool.

edit: i repeat, fuck you.

edit: really, you are a complete and utter moron. but i don't really need to say that, it's allready evident in your posts. go home.

[This message has been edited by 2lowfor0 (edited 12-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by 2lowfor0 (edited 12-17-2004).]

It's arrogant to presume that yours is the only true religion, Christian or otherwise. God(if he exists)is BIGGER than manmade religion.

Jesus said to spread the word, not to start religous orgonizations.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Meh... personally I think the book of John is a piece of crap, but thats just me.

.

Sweet... im not the only one that finds it weird!

quote:Originally posted by 2lowfor0:

Wow, 1600 posts , 4 months. Looks like you're the faggot.

If you can't contribute to a thread, then just stay the fuck out of it ok? You fucking tool.

edit: i repeat, fuck you.

edit: really, you are a complete and utter moron. but i don't really need to say that, it's allready evident in your posts. go home.

[This message has been edited by 2lowfor0 (edited 12-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by 2lowfor0 (edited 12-17-2004).]

I have alot of time on my hands.

I am a moron? I garuntee you I am more knowledgable on any subject that pertains to this forum than you are.

As for my posts relevance and contribution to the thread, it did plenty.

You are worrying about christian salvation, I was just informing you that your faggocity already bars you from the Judeo-Christian God's grace, so you don't really need to worry about it.

I mean, that is, unless you stop sucking cock.

Hell, happens when you die and can't let go of the fact that "you" (not you spacificly, I hardly know you) suck. So, you spend the rest of exixtance wishing you had paid for that pack of bubble gum instead of putting in your pocket.

quote:Originally posted by 2lowfor0:

what do you consider a perfect life?!?

A life where you dont sin...

quote:Originally posted by madamwench:

A life where you dont sin...

A perfect life is when there is no such thing as sin.

quote:Originally posted by madamwench:

A life where you dont sin...

Then noone is going to get into heaven. Because noone can live a sinless life on earth. Even jesus by deffinition committed the sin of wrathfullness torwards the money lenders on the steps of a temple. Isn't wrath one of the seven deadly sins?

Also God has been described as a sinless being. Yet later we are told the he also is a wrathful god. So which is it?

quote:Originally posted by 2lowfor0:

As a child I was brought up as a christian. (baptist) I've always struggled with what the christian bible says, namely that unless you accept jesus christ as your savior, you are going to hell. i don't believe this. i refuse to.

let us define the christian hell:

*****

1. often Hell The abode of condemned souls and devils in some religions; the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan.

2. A state of separation from God; exclusion from God's presence.

*****

I tend to like the 2nd definition more, but how could the following people, according to the christian doctrine, be "damned" to hell.

1) Mohandas Gandhi. (a Hindu)

2) Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso (a Budhhist)

3) Many many ordinary Muslims around the world.

These people are going to hell? I cannot accept that. These people have lived much more exemplary lives than I have so far.

What gives?



It is not our place to try and see God's heart. We know not where their souls rest, as God does not reveal it to us.

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

Then noone is going to get into heaven. Because noone can live a sinless life on earth. Even jesus by deffinition committed the sin of wrathfullness torwards the money lenders on the steps of a temple. Isn't wrath one of the seven deadly sins?

Also God has been described as a sinless being. Yet later we are told the he also is a wrathful god. So which is it?





I'm not sure what the 'seven deadly sins' are or who made the list...but Jesus' wrath might have been a justified wrath.

Also...we are 'taught' to fear the wrath of God. If God is wrathful...and such wrath is sinful...then God sins.

Ah...I see you had the same thought in you other post...."Is God A Sinless Being"...

quote:presided over by Satan.

Sorry, but I feel the need to correct this whenever I see it. Satan's place in Hell is BELOW the damned souls. He is meant to recieve the greatest of punishments and has no power in the place of torment (according to Christianity, there is no hell in Judaism).

^ My bible says that all shall be thrown into a "lake of fire" more or less.

There aren't really "levels" per se.

I think you're going off of popular thought, not religious fact.

where do bad folks go when they die

they don't go to heaven where the angels fly

they go to a lake of fire and fry

don't see 'em again 'till the fourth of july

...

Oh, sorry about that.

What is the definition of "sin"? I mean, masturbation a sin, homosexuality a sin, puleez. I say follow your conscience.

and god said, 'let there be light.'

of infinite more importance to the one true god is the attainment of satisfaction, not the practice of contemplation.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Sorry, but I feel the need to correct this whenever I see it. Satan's place in Hell is BELOW the damned souls. He is meant to recieve the greatest of punishments and has no power in the place of torment (according to Christianity, there is no hell in Judaism).



Actually, their is Hell or Hades or Sheol in the Judaic faith. Sheol is the place where the souls of the dead wait for the judgement of God.

quote:Originally posted by Eil:

and god said, 'let there be light.'

of infinite more importance to the one true god is the attainment of satisfaction, not the practice of contemplation.

Doesn't scripture also say that 'God saw that it was good.' That does sound like satisfaction to me.

Anyway...

Are you saying that it is more important to God that we are satisfied then that we are contemplative?

Are you saying that the practice of contemplation is not somehow satisfying?

It does seem unproductive if nothing is accomplished by it.

So...what does/has the act of contemplation actually accomplished?

Hmm...I'll have to contemplate that.

Of course you feel unsure about the idea of a God who loves everything punishing/allowing people to punish themselves with eternal misery and suffering. You *know* that you yourself couldn't condemn someone you loved to eternal damnation, or bare to see them punish themselves for eternity. If a book says that 2 + 2 = 5, but your experience says that 2 + 2 = 4, are you going to beleive a book or what you feel and know is true?