i have been a jehovah's witness for about 16 yrs and i always hated it. I finally got out and this brother always comes to my house whever he wants to and tries to convince me to go back. he eats me up with all these convos about everything and i have no way of answering him becuase he doesnt give me warning when he comes. so we made an arrangement where next week i can ask him anything about the relgion and he will answer it and show me its the best.

.........so i NEED your help to compile a list of questions that will prove the religion is wrong!

Religion can't be dis/proven. Just tell him you don't agree with the religion. That's the only argument you need.

i need hardcore questions that will show him hes wrong!

I have just the thing for you buddy:

Carm Questions for JWs (http://www.carm.org/jw/jwquestions.htm)

CARM is a Christian apologetics group. Their goal is to hold Christianity logically accountable for itself. They believe that Christians don't have to suspend their intelligence or belief in science to believe in Christ.

They also hold other religions up to logical evaluation. In the case of Mormonism, they actually prove its false. In the case of JWs i don't see such hard proof, but there are some good questions at the site i linked you.

theBishop

if we're all god's children, why cant you do miracles like Jesus? Either that or you could club him in the head with a hammer while crying "FOR ASGARD!"... when the police ask why you did that, tell them its because the Mjollnir willed you to put an end to his teachings... it'll work, trust me

Wow! I'm just looking into this religion. Is it true JWs use a regularly published magazine as scripture?

Man, this is some scary shit, much crazier than i thought. So this "Watchtower" organization regularly publishes magazines and tracts, which are considered Gospel.

Regular "bible studies" read the most recent Watchtower magazines, read the questions it asks and learn to memorize the answers to the questions. People who leave the church are to be shunned and members are encouraged not to talk to people knowledgeable in other religions.

Is that stuff true?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Man, this is some scary shit, much crazier than i thought. So this "Watchtower" organization regularly publishes magazines and tracts, which are considered Gospel.

Regular "bible studies" read the most recent Watchtower magazines, read the questions it asks and learn to memorize the answers to the questions. People who leave the church are to be shunned and members are encouraged not to talk to people knowledgeable in other religions.

Is that stuff true?

If it isn't totally true, it is partly.

My dad used to entertain them, even though he had no intention of converting.

I don't know if they take it as gospel, but they take it seriously, particularly the end of the world stuff. One of the magazines they gave my dad was this "alternate underground news" thingo, which was full of conspiracy stuff - Bush is in the skull and bones club, so thats why hes president, if you do some weird numeralogical things to his name, from three different numeralogical systems, you get 666, ect.

Oh... as for the shunning of unbelievers, ever heard of the AOG (assebly of god)?

They are Sooooo much scarier.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I have just the thing for you buddy:

Carm Questions for JWs (http://www.carm.org/jw/jwquestions.htm)

CARM is a Christian apologetics group. Their goal is to hold Christianity logically accountable for itself. They believe that Christians don't have to suspend their intelligence or belief in science to believe in Christ.

They also hold other religions up to logical evaluation. In the case of Mormonism, they actually prove its false. In the case of JWs i don't see such hard proof, but there are some good questions at the site i linked you.

theBishop

Thnx a million!!!

more links would be helpful

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:

Religion can't be dis/proven. Just tell him you don't agree with the religion. That's the only argument you need.

Also, I don't think there's such thing as a hardcore question.

Just tell him to beat it, or don't answer the door.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I have just the thing for you buddy:

Carm Questions for JWs (http://www.carm.org/jw/jwquestions.htm)

CARM is a Christian apologetics group. Their goal is to hold Christianity logically accountable for itself. They believe that Christians don't have to suspend their intelligence or belief in science to believe in Christ.

They also hold other religions up to logical evaluation. In the case of Mormonism, they actually prove its false. In the case of JWs i don't see such hard proof, but there are some good questions at the site i linked you.

theBishop

I find it amusing that CARM rags on other sects and religions, when "standard issue" Christianity is just as ludicrous as the religions they are criticizing.

Oh, the irony!

quote:I find it amusing that CARM rags on other sects and religions, when "standard issue" Christianity is just as ludicrous as the religions they are criticizing.

Oh, the irony!

***BANG****

Here's the answer: A shotgun. Shove it in his fucking face the next time he comes around. Pussy.

Typical Christians! They don't stop harrassing you and trying to force their unjustified beliefs on you. They think that you can experience the "magic of God." I experienced it. Its a nice illusion from the real world, but if you've got an inch of sanity it won't last long.

Cheerio!

lick my testicles.

ask him about the 'zurich declaration' that usually shuts jw's up ...at least til they can get to an elder

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

ask him about the 'zurich declaration' that usually shuts jw's up ...at least til they can get to an elder



i googled it and soemthing about the holocaust came up. can you be more specific on the 'zurich declaration'

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

Man, this is some scary shit, much crazier than i thought. So this "Watchtower" organization regularly publishes magazines and tracts, which are considered Gospel.

Regular "bible studies" read the most recent Watchtower magazines, read the questions it asks and learn to memorize the answers to the questions. People who leave the church are to be shunned and members are encouraged not to talk to people knowledgeable in other religions.

Is that stuff true?

Yes it is true.

Here is another very scary "Christian" group.

http://www.cosnews.org/

Please take a minute to look this over.

These places are popping up everywhere.

i'd have to look up the details myself again and that would mean going into the loft etc

but in brief. the joho's always make a big thing about how they were put in concerntration camps by the nazis because they would'nt serve in the army or swear the oath of allegiance.

even today in countries were there is national service young joho's regualary get sent to prison for refusing to go into the army.

BUT while their brothers and sisters were being gassed by hitler the swiss watchtower society brought out a declaration saying that all swiss joho's should do their national service and they had never preached otherwise.

its still one of the dark secrets of the WT society and even mentioning it has got people disfellowshipped.

a few years ago a missionary i spoke to told me he was a waiting a prison sentence for refusing german national service and he was proud that his church 'had never had the blood of innocents on its hands' ie condoned being in the army.

so i showed him a certified copy of the declaration...

after that a ban was issued, no joho under the rank of elder or pioneer is allowed to speak to me... (hee hee like i'm bothered..)

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-29-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Opium Wolf:

if we're all god's children, why cant you do miracles like Jesus? Either that or you could club him in the head with a hammer while crying "FOR ASGARD!"... when the police ask why you did that, tell them its because the Mjollnir willed you to put an end to his teachings... it'll work, trust me

Because it's not God's will that he do miracles.

Duh.

*LMAO*

quote:Originally posted by YupThisAlex:

Thnx a million!!!

more links would be helpful

Here's a hint: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lies+jehovah%27s+witness&btnG=Google+Search

- http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=problems+with+jehovah%27s+witness

- http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=false+jehovah%27s+witness

- http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=deception+jehovah%27s+witness

GOOGLE IS GRAND !

By the way, if you hate the religion, don't you have reasons ?

If not, why do you hate it ? Why did you leave the religion, if you had no logical reason to ?

I am not saying that you should be a JW What I am saying is that you should be able to tell your friend what you felt from the "heart".

You don't really need hard facts...though the Bible is FULL OF THEM.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I have just the thing for you buddy:

Carm Questions for JWs (http://www.carm.org/jw/jwquestions.htm)

CARM is a Christian apologetics group. Their goal is to hold Christianity logically accountable for itself. They believe that Christians don't have to suspend their intelligence or belief in science to believe in Christ.

They also hold other religions up to logical evaluation. In the case of Mormonism, they actually prove its false. In the case of JWs i don't see such hard proof, but there are some good questions at the site i linked you.

theBishop

I take it you believe in their "refutation" of Mormonism? (i.e. http://www.carm.org/lds/infinity.htm )

Then you must also believe Christinaity is false as well, since the same would apply to the belief that any being has always existed...

thanks to all of your help i prepared some questions using there bible and watchtowers. it all goes down this sunday...............

quote:They also hold other religions up to logical evaluation. In the case of Mormonism, they actually prove its false

i said it before but its an important point: Mormonism is a denomination of christianity as are JW's, Christian Science, Adventists,baptists,pentacostals and catholics.

it is not a seperate religion.

in my father's house..[/sarcasm]

Give us an update after the big day Alex.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I take it you believe in their "refutation" of Mormonism? (i.e. http://www.carm.org/lds/infinity.htm )



I'd say the author of A logical proof that Mormonism is false needs a refresher course in logic.

The "simple logical proof" presented disproves both Mormonism and Christianity, yet the author seems unaware of that fact.

Agree with you on this one, Rust.

after sunday ill try and scan all my questions and write down what he said in response to them.

I was talking about this page:

http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm

Which doesn't seem to have any impact on christianity.

And mormons are not christians. They dont believe in the bible, the trinity, and they believe that if you're good enough, you can become god. They believe that god wasn't always god which sort of contradicts god when he said "i an the alpha and omega".

quote:And mormons are not christians. They dont believe in the bible, the trinity,

none of which (according to St. John are requisites).

Quakers don't share most of your beliefs but everyone would class them as christian.

mormons truly believe jesus was the promised messiah (the Christ) and honor him as such therefore they are 'of Christ' = Christians.

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

I was talking about this page:

http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm

Which doesn't seem to have any impact on christianity.





The point still stands though. A website, which supposedly represents a reasonable and logical defense of Christianity is in fact refuting it in its quest to refute Mormonism!

The very interesting, and off topic question then is: Why do you give credence to their other arguments, but not that one?

In any case, the article you cite does not refute Mormonism. It can be easily explained away when you have an all-encompassing, and subjective variable such as 'god'. For example, one could say it was a test from god; something which should sound very familiar...

Well, that information is not CARM exclusive, in fact that site wasn't the place i first heard about it. I use their link because it most clearly explains the arugment and has pictures.

I haven't read the article your talking about, so i'm not denying credence to the other arguments. The reason i like the papayri story is because it's not spiritual in nature. Sure i could say any religion is false because god says "thou shalt have no other gods before me", but that's not very convincing if you don't believe the bible. This is concrete evidence of Smiths fraudulence.

And yes, it does refute mormonism because if Smith was not a Spriritual "Seer" there's no Book of Mormon, no Mormon Christian Bible, no Book of Abraham, etc. Without the scripture, there's no religion here.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:



And yes, it does refute mormonism because if Smith was not a Spriritual "Seer" there's no Book of Mormon, no Mormon Christian Bible, no Book of Abraham, etc. Without the scripture, there's no religion here.

theBishop

Like I said, that could be explained by simply saying it was a test. Notice, nobody is saying he isn't a "Spiritual Seer", but that the case of that specific translation was in fact a test.

That could very well be possible when you have a 'god' in a scenario, hence, there is no refutation present in the article you cite.

Oh, and I invite you to read the article I linked to. Since you describe CARM as, "a Christian apologetics group. Their goal is to hold Christianity logically accountable for itself. They believe that Christians don't have to suspend their intelligence or belief in science to believe in Christ.", I think it's important that you see the flaw in their argument.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 12-03-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

Quakers don't share most of your beliefs but everyone would class them as christian.





Yeah but quakers are cool, while Mormons and JW's are just weird.

All that talk of intergalatic celestial sex and full preterism... ugh.

in 2 hours he only answered 2 of my questions.

is jesus the archangel micheal?

is the jw relgion the only way?

AND HE KILLED ME WITH ANSWERS!!!

i still have more questions and he still has to answer, hopefully i can win.

quote:Originally posted by YupThisAlex:

in 2 hours he only answered 2 of my questions.

is jesus the archangel micheal?

is the jw relgion the only way?

AND HE KILLED ME WITH ANSWERS!!!

i still have more questions and he still has to answer, hopefully i can win.



hopefully, you both win...by you questioning him, you are making him look at his faith also.

I've heard it said that the best way to have a meaningful conversation with a JW goes a little something like this (at least from an xian's perspective):

JW's excel at Q & A- every week in the Watch Tower they are given more pre-packed answers to learn. As such, arguing within their Q&A approach will be near useless.

To get around this, let them say what they want to say, have their spiel, and wait for them to finish. Now that you have listened politely to them, ask if they would be willing to do the same.

JW's like the bible. They read it (alot more than most),they memorise it, they base their faith around it. As such, using the bible is probably going to be a good way of communicating. If they want to discuss it, take them through the bible, and look at what it actually has to say about stuff. From there, you can both deal with the issues on a more level playing field, and hopefully in an honest and truthful way.