Assuming there is a Christian version of God, would he damn homosexuals to hell despite how faithful he or she is to God, or would they be saved?

Here's hoping it's the former.

Well, from what I understand, full acceptance of Christ is all that matters, and all sin is equal. So being gay is just as bad as Pat Buchannan profiteering off genocide in Libya. If he can get into heaven, then homosexuals can.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

If [Pat Buchanan] can get into heaven, then homosexuals can.

If Pat's going to be in Heaven....

...well, let's just say I stand by my original post.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Well, from what I understand, full acceptance of Christ is all that matters, and all sin is equal. So being gay is just as bad as Pat Buchannan profiteering off genocide in Libya. If he can get into heaven, then homosexuals can.

Yeah I'd like to think the above. All any of us can really hope for is grace. Thats not to excuse us for what we do... but in the end thats all that any xian can really cling to.

I have a mate who's gay and has been thinking a fair bit about christianity and such. So its kind of interesting to hear his POV.

Well, the general idea is that if someone has truely accepted Christ as their savior, they will be trying their best not to sin

ie: giving up that sinful lifestyle.

That doesn't mean they might not fail sometimes, but if they aren't even trying to stop sinning, its hard to imagine being forgiven.

I mean, its hard to forgive someone for something if their still doing it.

Just the message I seem to have gotten.

Its a pretty complicated issue, and your ideas about the bible will influence your ideas too.

e.g.

1) Uber FundieBot homosexuality is an abomination (cites leviticus, fails to notice that touching a dead pig is also an "abomination". Too bad, no more football)

2) Semi-Fundie to Mild-Conservative this increasingly represents "evangelicals" in the mainstream. The bible is the inspired/infallible Word of God (with capitals).... then christian =/= homosexual due to comments made in NT.

3)Evangelical-liberal Bible is not infallible or inerrant, and if homosexuality is definately pre-determined (whether genetically, or even in primary socailization (FUBAR spelling)), then the decision should be up to the individual, with support from whatever christian community they are in (i.e. a church). Generally a homosexual relations would be expected to be monogamous, similar to xian views on heterosexual relationships.

4)Fairly liberal

Others would say that Paul's (Jesus in the gospelsnever mentions anything explicitly related to homosexuality, despite the fact that it was strong in Hellenistic culture, which was quite an influence in Palestine at the time) comments could well be "his own opinion" or heavily influenced, and therefore appropriate, for his cultural context. There is also some talk of him coming from the stoic school of philosophy which would also be an influence on his ideas about sexuality.

Such views are, generally, heavily influenced by textual criticism.

5)Uber-Liberal

Another school of thought would say that the bible is merely a guide and that you can pick and choose stuff as you please.



Please note that these are very loose definitions (except for the first two) and there will be many exceptions to the rule, but I feel they are useful frameworks, particularly for non-xians, to understand what the church is going through.

Personally i would currently be somewhere between 3 and 4... although 3 is probably the most heavily influenced by my personal opinions.

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Well, the general idea is that if someone has truely accepted Christ as their savior, they will be trying their best not to sin

ie: giving up that sinful lifestyle.

Scenario: So if a homosexual woman (i.e. a woman that feels romantically attracted to other females) ignores those feelings, pretends she's in love with a man, and marries him based on a lie...then that's OK?

I assume the conservative Christian answer is that she should try to "change" her feelings for other women. If she can't change, she should live a life of self-induced celibacy and loneliness, correct?

I fail to understand how having a long-term relationship based on love, trust, and commitment is "a sinful lifestyle", but I suppose that's where we'll have to part ways.

Homosexuality is as much of a sin as eating pork. They're both called abominations in the Bible.

actually he'd light them. whats meant by "believing in his existance" is proving it by learning his teachings and following the 10 commandments. if you recall, soddom and gommrah was burnt to the ground for their tolerance of homosexuality and other sins. though some may have believed, the reason they were killed is because they would not heed to his word to stop their ways. so yes, if you even believe that god exists, you know that he will not tolerate homosexuality. no matter how much they believe. and that those who engage it and not cease will be torched in hell.

Well, it really depends on whether it's a choice or not. Or perhaps if one can't help but feel the feelings and yet doesn't act on them then it's alright with the Christian god.

quote:Originally posted by Acid Rocker:

[B]if you recall, soddom and gommrah was burnt to the ground for their tolerance of homosexuality and other sins.[B]

Sodom and Gomorrah - why, it's almost as much fun as the Book of Leviticus!

My favorite part is when all the evil sodomites are banging on Lot's door, crying, "Bring all the men out to us so we can fuck them in the ass!" And Lot says, "For shame! Don't do anything that sinful! Instead, take my two virgin daughters and do whatever you want to them!" (Genesis 19:4-8)

Ah, the epitome of morality.

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:

Sodom and Gomorrah - why, it's almost as much fun as the Book of Leviticus!

My favorite part is when all the evil sodomites are banging on Lot's door, crying, "Bring all the men out to us so we can fuck them in the ass!" And Lot says, "For shame! Don't do anything that sinful! Instead, take my two virgin daughters and do whatever you want to them!" (Genesis 19:4-8)

Ah, the epitome of morality.

Ummm the issue with Sodom and Gommorrah was not the homosexuality... the smiting had has alot more to do with how they treated the strangers.

In Near-Estern cultures of that time you had a major responsibility to protect those in your care... as such Lot was in some ways, doing an honorable thing (in this culture... remembering that our homogenised culture isn't the only one) by offering his daughters. He gave up something very valuable of his own to protect people that he hardly knew.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

Ummm the issue with Sodom and Gommorrah was not the homosexuality... the smiting had has alot more to do with how they treated the strangers.

In Near-Estern cultures of that time you had a major responsibility to protect those in your care... as such Lot was in some ways, doing an honorable thing (in this culture... remembering that our homogenised culture isn't the only one) by offering his daughters. He gave up something very valuable of his own to protect people that he hardly knew.



No, I wasn't claiming it was about homosexuality exclusively. Someone else mentioned that aspect, and I merely mentioned that was my favorite part of the story.

Lot was doing an honorable thing......so are you saying that (gasp!) moral values change over time?!

quote:Originally posted by Lolita:



Lot was doing an honorable thing......so are you saying that (gasp!) moral values change over time?!

sssshhhh... the other christians might hear you...

I didn't read the whole thread but one day I asked a very Christian friend of mine this question. Seh wasn't sure (hha) so asked her very religious parents. The answer they gave :

Being a homosexual is considered a vice. If you are gay and you love God, you want to have him in your life, you will pray to God and he will remove your vice from you. If you truly accept Jesus into your life, then you will not be gay, because he will help you in your hour of need. Put your faith in god and all those bad gay feelings will go away.

I was like "so what if you pray, but you still like boys?" At which time she notified me that you must not actually love God, then.

Crazy.

quote:Originally posted by myscars:

I didn't read the whole thread but one day I asked a very Christian friend of mine this question. Seh wasn't sure (hha) so asked her very religious parents. The answer they gave :

Being a homosexual is considered a vice. If you are gay and you love God, you want to have him in your life, you will pray to God and he will remove your vice from you. If you truly accept Jesus into your life, then you will not be gay, because he will help you in your hour of need. Put your faith in god and all those bad gay feelings will go away.

I was like "so what if you pray, but you still like boys?" At which time she notified me that you must not actually love God, then.

Crazy.



"Bad gay feelings." Heh. People like that usually don't understand homosexuality very well. And why would they? They're not gay. (I love when people profess to understand something they've never experienced.)

In the eyes of someone like that, a "bad gay feeling" would usually be something like, "I want to dress up in chaps and leather and ass-fuck him all night long."

They don't typically think of things like, "That boy is so beautiful that I want to write poetry for him and send him flowers." Not what'd you normally consider "bad", but pretty fucking gay all the same.

It makes me angry when I hear things like this. I feel bad for all those poor kids, struggling daily to try to "change" their feelings, constantly made to feel bad about who they are. It's why gay adolescents are three times more likely to commit suicide. I pray for them, too. I pray that they can get through this bullshit that everyone else puts them through, and come out a stronger individual.

according to christian beliefs, people that have mental problems are not responsible for what they do. So, according to christian beliefs, gays should be considered mentally ill because they have an unnatural attraction, because god made them that way.

fyi, i dont believe in christianity

Ich bin Uber Fundiebot. Seing Heil! its an abomination and should be delt with in these ways.

1 immediate beheading

2 throwing em off a clif

3 hanging

quote:Originally posted by NightVision:

Seing Heil!

You can see hell? wow, that must be some trip your on...

quote:Originally posted by megalomaniac:

according to christian beliefs, people that have mental problems are not responsible for what they do.

They aren't?

Is there any evidence for that? or is it part of the attempt of liberal christians to put some shred of compassion back into christianity?

Really, at best, the bible is silent on the issue, which, I suppose, is as good as god saying "I'll handle it, don't you kids waste time thinking about it"

quote:They aren't?

Is there any evidence for that? or is it part of the attempt of liberal christians to put some shred of compassion back into christianity?

Really, at best, the bible is silent on the issue, which, I suppose, is as good as god saying "I'll handle it, don't you kids waste time thinking about it"

I'm going on what i heard from catholic priests.

whether its in the bible or not, i understand that its a common belief of christians today.

quote:Originally posted by inquisitor_11:

You can see hell? wow, that must be some trip your on...

That made me laugh. For the Germantically challenged, this is how you properly sound like a Nazi:

JUDEN RAUS! (Expulsion of the Jews!)

AUSLANDER RAUS! (Expulsion of foreigners!)

SIEG HEIL! (Hail victory!)