We dont need any religion!

[sift]

There are many reasons why i think we dont need religion so ill go through a few.

1. people base their lives around their religous beliefs and dont know for sure wats in the after life and dont enjoy their current life

2. the many restrictions each religion has stops people for achieving happiness as the follow the rules set by their belifs.

3. we only have these beliefs because we were born into a family that already beleived them and therefore we must to because we think we must blieve what we r brought up into.

[Fuck]

There is a song by tool singing about the third eye, some of them go

"so good to see you once again

I thought that you were hiding

You thought that I had run away

Chasing the tail of dogma"

I think what he meant was once the spiritual eye is opened, dogma, and reason seems to lose all meaning. How can someone be free with dogma restricting the mind...

There are a lot of people who say a lot of different "truths", but it's best to discover your own.

[Zman]

quote:Originally posted by sift:

There are many reasons why i think we dont need religion so ill go through a few.

1. people base their lives around their religous beliefs and dont know for sure wats in the after life and dont enjoy their current life

2. the many restrictions each religion has stops people for achieving happiness as the follow the rules set by their belifs.

3. we only have these beliefs because we were born into a family that already beleived them and therefore we must to because we think we must blieve what we r brought up into.

1. People base their lives around religion because it's an important part of our life. Religious people usually enjoy their life more.

2. Religous people usually enjoy their life more

3. even if this is true, what's it have to do with the need of religion

Well, this is a pretty fundemental (read "underdeveloped") argument against religion.

1. Uh, this is a pretty weak point. I think i know what the afterlife is about, and i definitely enjoy my current life. I don't know any religious people who approach their faith as a burden. Most religious people i know feel much more fulfilled than people who have no spiritual beliefs and are basically only living in order to buy a bigger house, a better car, and have as much sex as possible. I live my life knowing there are more important things than that.

2. Same point, more immature wording. On the contrary, I think the "rules" set out by the bible (i'm a christian) help us achieve happiness by encouraging us to avoid the activities that will lead to spritual death.

3. My dad is agnostic and my mom doesn't have very strong beliefs at all, I became a christian on my own and my parents, if anything, discouraged me from going to church, so maybe your parents want you to believe in something, but your situation is not universal.

theBishop

quote:Originally posted by sift:

There are many reasons why i think we dont need religion so ill go through a few.

1. people base their lives around their religous beliefs and dont know for sure wats in the after life and dont enjoy their current life

2. the many restrictions each religion has stops people for achieving happiness as the follow the rules set by their belifs.

3. we only have these beliefs because we were born into a family that already beleived them and therefore we must to because we think we must blieve what we r brought up into.

If Digital Savior were eating an apple, would you know whether she was enjoying it?

Would you know whether the apple was sweet or sour?

In other words, you are basing your understanding of peoples belief and enjoyment without experiencing it for yourself, first hand.

Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 09-01-2004).]

[Digital_Savior]

It would have to be sweet, as well as sour...so that I could appreciate both.

(What is LIFE after DEATH without the KNOWLEDGE of both ?)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



It would have to be sweet, as well as sour...so that I could appreciate both.

(What is LIFE after DEATH without the KNOWLEDGE of both ?)

no fair helpin' the peanut gallery LOL

good answer'n

Oh great... heres our "14 year old who just found out it would piss off his parents if he was an atheist" thread of the week.

Idiot

Exactly dearest_night.

Regarding suxors: yeah, i guess you're right about the afterlife, since my knowledge of the afterlife comes from my understanding of the bible, which i believe in.

But that was like 5% of my post, you missed the whole part where i 0wn3d the thread-starter.



Sift: if you want to be an atheist, you're gonna have to work your brain muscles a little better than this.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Oh great... heres our "14 year old who just found out it would piss off his parents if he was an atheist" thread of the week.

Idiot

*LAUGHS* !!

[Aphelion Corona]

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Oh great... heres our "14 year old who just found out it would piss off his parents if he was an atheist" thread of the week.

Idiot

Hehehe. That would've been my screen name if I didn't know that a bunch of my friends would be saying "Huh, I don't understand. Are you an Athiest?"

Sheesh.

But yeh, that's funny.

And Sift: Fine, we don't need religion.

*The world with no religion*

AC: Morals don't exist! W00t!

Sift: Morals? What are they?

* AC murders Sift with a chainsaw *

AC: I've no idea!

/End World.

And so you see, if religion didn't exist then I guess Sift would be dead now.... O wait he was right. Bummer.

Sift:

1. Do you think that someone would devote their entire life to a belief if they didn't honestly believe it to be true? They have faith, and therefore, feel that they truly understand life and death.

They don't enjoy their current life? Funny, most theists I speak with are just as content with life as any agnostic or atheist. And who the hell are you to gauge the happiness of others, anyway?

2. As Bishop stated, I don't think that most view their faith as a burden. If they do, then they have the choice to cast aside their beliefs. And again, who are you to say that others cannot find happiness?

3. Humanity has this wonderful trait called free will. No one can force you to believe in anything that you disagree with. It's a simple matter of choice. Anyone that allows others to impose beliefs upon them deserves any sadness or regret that may accompany it.

Aphelion Corona:

You don't honestly believe that morality can only exist through religion, do you? I'm hoping that you were just joking around with that point.

quote:Originally posted by Aphelion Corona:



*The world with no religion*

AC: Morals don't exist! W00t!

Sift: Morals? What are they?

* AC murders Sift with a chainsaw *

AC: I've no idea!

/End World.

And so you see, if religion didn't exist then I guess Sift would be dead now.... O wait he was right. Bummer.

Ohh... don't be so certain about morals and religion being that incredibly interconected. I know some very moral atheists.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by dearestnight_falcon:

Ohh... don't be so certain about morals and religion being that incredibly interconected. I know some very moral atheists.

But the actual morality was derived from religion.

The very first laws were given by God, to Adam, and then to Moses.

Yes, Savior, that's a very nice story and all... yet, we don't all need the Ten Commandments to tell us what is right and wrong.

I know that hurting you will cause pain. I know that I personally do not enjoy pain. This alone tells me that it is wrong to hurt you or anyone else, as I too know the consequences.

[Fuck]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

But the actual morality was derived from religion.

The very first laws were given by God, to Adam, and then to Moses.

UM, LIKE, DO YOU HAVE ANY LIKE, VALID DIRECT, LIKE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE OF THIS!?!? (hey your words not mine)

Do you have any verifiable evidence that it is in fact, best to find your own truth? How do you know, or even claim to know the answer to what happens when we die, or how the universe came to be when it's just you speculating?

True, the bible is just a book, and it's really old, but i trust a millenia old document that millions of people still base their lives on, than the speculation of one teenage boy.

That's the problem, Bishop. Your trust in the Bible is worthy of the same criticism as Fuck's speculation. Neither of you can honestly, without a doubt, prove that you are correct. The Bible may seem to be a more credible source in your eyes, yet I see both of your arguments as equal.

"The Bible says this."

"I don't believe in the Bible, so I say this."

I'm not trying to stand up for Fuck's post, as it wasn't a very good one, but the way I see it, neither side has enough evidence that would convince me to accept their truth.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Yes, Savior, that's a very nice story and all... yet, we don't all need the Ten Commandments to tell us what is right and wrong.

I know that hurting you will cause pain. I know that I personally do not enjoy pain. This alone tells me that it is wrong to hurt you or anyone else, as I too know the consequences.

But before you knew that hurting someone physically caused pain, your parents taught you not to "hurt".

And they learned this value when they themselves were children. And so on and so on.

It is not something you are born with...quite the contrary. If you have children, you surely know that their first instincts are to destroy things...push things to the limit...do as they please, regardless of consequences.

They are conditioned to hold values such as "don't hurt others".

You're right...you don't NEED the Ten Commandments. You have a conscience, which is governed by your soul, which was given to you by God.

Inerrantly, we understand the difference between right and wrong, as adults.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by Fuck:

UM, LIKE, DO YOU HAVE ANY LIKE, VALID DIRECT, LIKE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE OF THIS!?!? (hey your words not mine)

Verifiable evidence of what, exactly ? Do you even know about the elements you want me to break down for you ?

Read the Bible, and then ask. At least then you could claim to have an educated opinion on the matter.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

That's the problem, Bishop. Your trust in the Bible is worthy of the same criticism as Fuck's speculation. Neither of you can honestly, without a doubt, prove that you are correct. The Bible may seem to be a more credible source in your eyes, yet I see both of your arguments as equal.

"The Bible says this."

"I don't believe in the Bible, so I say this."

I'm not trying to stand up for Fuck's post, as it wasn't a very good one, but the way I see it, neither side has enough evidence that would convince me to accept their truth.

Have you read the Bible, Veritas ?

(honest question)

the reason people are so attached to their religions is because religions are like painkillers. the person on them feels better, but they become addicted, when people tell them things contrary to their beliefs it's similar to trying to get someone to withdraw

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

I know that hurting you will cause pain. I know that I personally do not enjoy pain. This alone tells me that it is wrong to hurt you or anyone else, as I too know the consequences.

OK, so if we know that we dont like pain, ans this alone tells us that it is wrong, then why do humans (believers and non-believers alike)hurt each other?

And are you telling us that you are the only human that has never hurt another?

Savior, I understand your point. Yes, we are taught from birth that it is wrong to hurt others. However, in my mind, a child that is not taught morality through fear may still learn morality through their own life experiences.

"You have a conscience, which is governed by your soul, which was given to you by God."

That is your opinion, one with which i disagree. I may have a conscience, and I may have a soul. However, I am not as certain as you are on this point. I may simply be a lump of cells controlled by electrical impulses firing from my brain. Then again, there may be something more to it, but as I have said, no one can truly know.

"Have you read the Bible, Veritas ?"

I cannot honestly say that I have read the Bible in its entirety, though I never claimed to be an expert on this topic. All I can say is that someone's (anyone's) life experiences and beliefs are just as credible in my mind as a book written by men hundreds of years ago. Both are worthy of consideration and criticism.

Xtreem:

"OK, so if we know that we dont like pain, ans this alone tells us that it is wrong, then why do humans (believers and non-believers alike)hurt each other?"

Simple, because humans still have the choice to ignore their morality. Have you ever gone through with a decision when, deep down, you knew it was wrong? You chose to ignore your morality with that choice.

"And are you telling us that you are the only human that has never hurt another?"

No, not at all. I was simply presenting a different perspective.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by cheapandugly:

the reason people are so attached to their religions is because religions are like painkillers. the person on them feels better, but they become addicted, when people tell them things contrary to their beliefs it's similar to trying to get someone to withdraw

The only problem with that line of thinking in regards to Christianity is that having this kind of faith is NOT easy.

It is difficult to deny the flesh...it is difficult to make the right decision, when there is a constant barrage of spiritual activity attempting to keep you from the narrow path.

Always a tempting...always a lie behind every corner. A stumbling block to keep you from the happiness that only God can bring you.

It is a struggle every day...but in the end it is fulfilling in ways that non-believers could never know, and it is NOT mental.

Logically, Christianity is NOT appealing. The discipline it takes to follow God appropriately is often lost on us.

It is the spiritual fulfillment that makes it worth it.

I don't think that telling someone things that are contrary to their beliefs is like trying to get them to kick cold turkey. I think people, in general, just hate to be wrong.

I hope that made some sense.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-03-2004).]

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Savior, I understand your point. Yes, we are taught from birth that it is wrong to hurt others. However, in my mind, a child that is not taught morality through fear may still learn morality through their own life experiences.

"You have a conscience, which is governed by your soul, which was given to you by God."

That is your opinion, one with which i disagree. I may have a conscience, and I may have a soul. However, I am not as certain as you are on this point. I may simply be a lump of cells controlled by electrical impulses firing from my brain. Then again, there may be something more to it, but as I have said, no one can truly know.

"Have you read the Bible, Veritas ?"

I cannot honestly say that I have read the Bible in its entirety, though I never claimed to be an expert on this topic. All I can say is that someone's (anyone's) life experiences and beliefs are just as credible in my mind as a book written by men hundreds of years ago. Both are worthy of consideration and criticism.

Xtreem:

"OK, so if we know that we dont like pain, ans this alone tells us that it is wrong, then why do humans (believers and non-believers alike)hurt each other?"

Simple, because humans still have the choice to ignore their morality. Have you ever gone through with a decision when, deep down, you knew it was wrong? You chose to ignore your morality with that choice.

"And are you telling us that you are the only human that has never hurt another?"

No, not at all. I was simply presenting a different perspective.

A child that is not taught morality by their parents will still be taught morality by the other's. Doesn't really matter if it is by their parents or not. The point is, we are not born with a sense of morality, which is congruant with the Bible's teachings that we are born into sin.

As I said previously, if you have children, you will see that it is their nature to do the wrong thing, EVERY TIME. We have to "train" them not to.

Do you honestly "feel" like a lump of cells, governed solely by electrical impulses, formed over millions of years by evolution ?

How COULD this be achieved ? An emotion is not something that can evolve. I think anger has always been anger, and love has always been love, as sadness has always been sadness.

We may get hairier, or less hairy over time, due to our changing environments, but one thing that remains a constant is human emotion. Emotion does not exist in any other creature on this planet except humans. Sure a dog can have a positive reaction to affection, but this is purely instinct, and not emotion. (in my opinion)

I think that a person's life experiences only serve as testimony to the fact there is an inerrant desire to achieve...to find something better, to gain. And it has nothing to do with tangible belongings. We are searching for something from birth. Happiness, fulfillment, contentment.

We confuse ourselves into believing that these can be achieved by acquiring wealth, or love, or popularity. (or many derivatives thereof)

But when we die, what did these things matter ?

The book was physically written by men, but upon reading it you would come to know the truth in the fact that these men were inspired by God.

If you are logical, which you clearly are, this book will appeal to you in it's entirety. Trust me, I can see that we think alike in many ways. (not that we agree, but in how we come to the conclusions that we have)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The only problem with that line of thinking in regards to Christianity is that having this kind of faith is NOT easy.

It is difficult to deny the flesh...it is difficult to make the right decision, when there is a constant barrage of spiritual activity attempting to keep you from the narrow path.

Always a tempting...always a lie behind every corner. A stumbling block to keep you from the happiness that only God can bring you.

It is a struggle every day...but in the end it is fulfilling in ways that non-believers could never know, and it is NOT mental.

Logically, Christianity is NOT appealing. The discipline it takes to follow God appropriately is often lost on us.

It is the spiritual fulfillment that makes it worth it.

I don't think that telling someone things that are contrary to their beliefs is like trying to get them to kick cold turkey. I think people, in general, just hate to be wrong.

I hope that made some sense.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 09-03-2004).]

you make a rather good point, but in my experience it's seldom that you ever run into someone who is a true christian.

that and a few other things sum up why i'm certain there is no god of any sort

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The only problem with that line of thinking in regards to Christianity is that having this kind of faith is NOT easy.

It is difficult to deny the flesh...it is difficult to make the right decision, when there is a constant barrage of spiritual activity attempting to keep you from the narrow path.

Always a tempting...always a lie behind every corner. A stumbling block to keep you from the happiness that only God can bring you.

It is a struggle every day...but in the end it is fulfilling in ways that non-believers could never know, and it is NOT mental.

Logically, Christianity is NOT appealing. The discipline it takes to follow God appropriately is often lost on us.

It is the spiritual fulfillment that makes it worth it.

I don't think that telling someone things that are contrary to their beliefs is like trying to get them to kick cold turkey. I think people, in general, just hate to be wrong.

I hope that made some sense.

good theory. in fact, some appear to hate it so bad that they forego the exercise of logic and believe just for the sake of believing that they are right... receiving affirmation from the few instances (usually irrelevent) in which they are correct on a position. after all, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

and even manic depressive personalities reach ecstatic highs in between valleys of depression.

let me say this real clear so that you and i understand each other digital_savior. i respect your admiration for the divine, and i further deeply respect the purity and strength of your affinity for the notion of redemption... uh, that's it. no 'buts'...

just wanted you to know that, you know the rest.

"The point is, we are not born with a sense of morality, which is congruant with the Bible's teachings that we are born into sin."

I understand where you are coming from on this one. We are all taught to treat others as we wish to be treated, yet I do not accredit this entirely to religion. It is my belief that we would have morals today even if religion had never came to be. Morality is essential to a functional society. Without religion, I think people would still learn to live with one another to further society as a whole (to whatever extent is possible at the time...) I am in no way suggesting that society would be better off today without religion, just that we could learn morality without it as well.

"Do you honestly "feel" like a lump of cells, governed solely by electrical impulses, formed over millions of years by evolution?"

Honestly, I do not think that my feelings will change what I truly am. If we are nothing more than rotting flesh, then nothing we can say or do will affect our inevitable outcome. I don't necessarily believe this, but it is one of many possibilities.

"Emotion does not exist in any other creature on this planet except humans. Sure a dog can have a positive reaction to affection, but this is purely instinct, and not emotion."

Some view human emotion as pure instinct as well. A situation arises which puts your life at rik, you feel fear. Someone affects your life in a negative way, even if it is accidental, and you will feel anger. Someone affects you in a positive way, you may feel love or happiness. This would imply that emotion is merely a reaction to external events. Then again, if this is true, why do we have so many internal conflicts even if we have little or no interaction with others? (Nothing like contradicting myself) Anyway, I don't really know the truth on this matter, but I'm enjoying the conversation.

"Happiness, fulfillment, contentment.

We confuse ourselves into believing that these can be achieved by acquiring wealth, or love, or popularity. (or many derivatives thereof)

But when we die, what did these things matter?"

I'm having Fight Club flashbacks. You are correct here. It's sad to see so many obsessing about buying their next TV, sports car, 200 dollar pair of shoes... when really, what's the use? So you can show your friends that you are somehow superior because your shoes have a different logo? I just can't understand how people can be so utterly obsessed with popularity and wealth.

"The book was physically written by men, but upon reading it you would come to know the truth in the fact that these men were inspired by God."

Being agnostic I cannot see divine inspiration coming through in the Bible. It may very well be the case, but I cannot be certain, therefore I remain skeptical.

"If you are logical, which you clearly are, this book will appeal to you in it's entirety. Trust me, I can see that we think alike in many ways."

I hope you're enjoying this discussion as much as I am. It's been a while since my last, good debate. Anyway, I'm about to pass out. I'll try to put some effort into reading the rest of the Bible.

[Digital_Savior]

quote:Originally posted by cheapandugly:



you make a rather good point, but in my experience it's seldom that you ever run into someone who is a true christian.

that and a few other things sum up why i'm certain there is no god of any sort

You're right. Seldom will you find a true Christian...or at least a Christian walking by God. (it is very hard to do)