My own problem with Heaven/Hell

Most religions have the whole do good and go to heaven with god, and do bad and go to hell with satan. Ususally heaven is a good place when you live in peace with god's company and hell is some type of firery hole and your tortured by satan or deamons. And in the end, whatever it is, hell would open up and swallow the evil people and the good would escape to heaven and some type of war/battle to defeat satan. Why think so negative, why can't these religions have something where the goal is to unite heaven and hell. Why not tell the people that god has the power to go to hell and make peace with satan. I would be a little bit more open to these religions with this mentality was applied. I would like to think positive

Because then there would be no reason to be

good. Everyone would go around comitting crimes and treating each other like shit without fear of consequence.



EDIT: what you speak of is essentially reincarnation.

[This message has been edited by Psychotogen (edited 07-19-2004).]

[Social Junker]

quote:Originally posted by Psychotogen:

Because then there would be no reason to be

good. Everyone would go around comitting crimes and treating each other like shit without fear of consequence.

[This message has been edited by Psychotogen (edited 07-19-2004).]

Not true. The arguement that people would be like animals without fear of punishment is absurd. People do have their own inner moral codes.

^^^ Yeah, but when you take a peek at all the stupidity and desensitization coming from the combo of television, video games, and bad parenting we get some F**cked up children roaming the streets.

[Zman]

Serious religions that aren't made up by people(that's debatable, but you understand) aren't concerend with getting converts if their faith is corrupted.

The Pope isn't going to start making up stuff just to make people feel more positive. Although he is pretty liberal, but he's not making any new doctrine.

[I_Like_Traffic_Lights]

by most religions you mean those branching from the old testament?

But I digress.

I feel that you make your own heaven and hell right here on earth.

[ArmsMerchant]

quote:Originally posted by I_Like_Traffic_Lights:

by most religions you mean those branching from the old testament?

But I digress.

I feel that you make your own heaven and hell right here on earth.

Yeah, what he said.

The biblical heaven/hell thing is just another myth the priesthood cooked up to keep the flock in line.

[Snoopy]

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Serious religions that aren't made up by people

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Not true. The arguement that people would be like animals without fear of punishment is absurd. People do have their own inner moral codes.

i disagree. young children are taught to get along, to not fight, to share, to not take, etc. Those inner moral codes seem to be taught at a young age. Sure, some people may be more "good" than others right from the start, but how can you tell whether it was taught or "genitic" without putting a bunch of 2 or 3 year olds on gilligans island to fend for themselves. I think that without any intervention from God or teaching from adults (assuming that they survived), they would basically be governed by "might is right" for several hundred years, and gradually produce a new society, more or less like the one we have. Actually, more LESS because i started out with the assumption without God's intervention.

[AngryFemme]

Heaven and Hell:

Nearly every Western version of Christianity drills it. You're either born into it, your ideology shaped by family traditions, learned behaviors and your environment - or you choose at some point in your life to accept a certain religion as your Belief System. Whichever it may be, most people who choose to practice faith feel a very strong intimate connection to it. The conversion of an agnostic is simple enough, if the ideas are persuasive enough and have some sort of appeal for a reward. Most of us are not equipped to argue with the set of belief systems thrust down our throats from childhood, or buck against the moral system that is permanently etched into our thought patterns as our personalities develop. Fear, guilt and blind faith is the invisible leash tethering most individuals to these sets of beliefs.

First, accept a doctrine. Then, practice fellowshipping with other likeminded members of said denomination, and through a bizarre personality metamorphisis, reshape your perception and establish a set of Rules (or commandments, or ethical mandates) to rigidly live your life by. You have a strong desire to spread the word and "be a witness" to the positively glowing advantage the dogma has to offer. You take part in fits of Togetherness and Worship. You and your brethren embrace your "beliefs" and make every effort to replicate it to other people. You will likely feel a few steps ahead of the rest of humanity even though you've managed to retain a great deal of empathy for the scores of lost souls and nonbelievers around you. That is the 'fine print' equivalent of the obvious warning each religion posts boldly in it's teachings: Absolute Truth. The classic "my god can beat the shit out of your god" concept. No exceptions to this rule, lest unmerciful damnation be thrust onto you.

These ideas, or "memes", have an infinite shelf-life as long as there are human minds out there that will absorb it, replicate it, and keep it alive. Without the false promise of an afterlife, there would hardly be any incentive to turn one's life over to a particular belief system that obviously doesn't merit much reward other than guilt, shame and self-depravity.

My thoughts are this: If what you do in this life predicts the level of enjoyment in your next life, the supposed "Afterlife" - who is to say or be certain beyond any arguable doubt that the life you are in right this second is not the hell and damnation of a previous life? Having said that - who is to say that all this, everything around us, all of our collective experiences - isn't actually the glory of heaven and the height of enjoyable ecstasy as we know it? After all, we cannot define or illustrate the concept of Heaven or Hell since it can only be experienced by dying. Dying, that is - and never coming back to give a report. Even an individual with even the most rudimentary understanding of medical science and common sense can realize that surely the flames and brimstone of Eternal Hellfire could not damage or cause physical pain to a "soul". All the Biblical passages relating to hell makes it perfectly clear that we don't take our bodies with us when we expire.

Natural selection is so indifferent to the whole Good vs. Evil analogy that it almost seems non-productive to think of our existence in the light of creationism, or divine intervention, or a "master plan" guiding us along on some invisible string. I'd like to take full responsibility right here and right now for my actions, my ideals, my decision-making skills and my belief system as being My Own, completely untethered to any set of rules, laws, faith scripts, or ancient biblical texts telling me what I "should" do. As moral animals, we have to step outside of the box and be able to identify all these "free will" decisions we make each day to living a more prosperous life. Happiness and personal fulfillment is subjective to perception. If the knobs of our perception can be tweaked enough to somehow balance out our most primitive animal desires and satisfy our "yearnings" with a good, strong dose of recipricol altruism just to keep us all from killing one another in the face of greed, lust, power or competition - We might be alright.

Psychotogen wrote: Because then there would be no reason to be

good. Everyone would go around comitting crimes and treating each other like shit without fear of consequence.

That is bullshit. The simple, in-your-face logic of this dictates that we were all wired (via natural selection) with a strong sense of recipricol atruism that is so basic, even a three-year old could understand it's principles. Being Good pays off. Being Bad does not. The fear of consequence will always be present in most people, because as social animals, the idea of "banishment" or "punishment" or being looked down on by one's peers is consequence enough. Nature creates people. People create laws and rules and standards to live by. Adhering to these said laws (or rules) is what is necessary to win the support of your peers and loved ones. Besides, it just makes more sense. There are exceptions, of course - but that is a given in nature. Altruism is often cloaked in deception or manipulation, and the fact stands that some people are better at it than others. As long as there is life, there will always be organisms taking every opportunity to take advantage of other organisms if it somehow betters or helps their struggle in life. There will always be wars and strife and cruel dictatorships.

I just don't think organized religion is necessary to uphold the good of society, in general. Not for an individual, not for a culture, and certainly not for a civilization.

[NightVision]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i disagree. young children are taught to get along, to not fight, to share, to not take, etc. Those inner moral codes seem to be taught at a young age. Sure, some people may be more "good" than others right from the start, but how can you tell whether it was taught or "genitic" without putting a bunch of 2 or 3 year olds on gilligans island to fend for themselves. I think that without any intervention from God or teaching from adults (assuming that they survived), they would basically be governed by "might is right" for several hundred years, and gradually produce a new society, more or less like the one we have. Actually, more LESS because i started out with the assumption without God's intervention.

it was survival of the fittest untill the time that the greeks developed philosiphy? or mabey earlyer. But it seems that cultures do develope these traits.

Religions are man-made, spirituality comes from God. And just being good is not enough to get into heaven, at least not according

to Jesus. There are some very specific requirements. But the point isn't about escaping eternal punishment, really. It's

more about becoming a spiritual creature.

And the less churches or religions can do to help you with that, the more they'll fall

back on the old punishment-and-reward Pavlov-

ian shuffle. Or hustle, since it's really just a scam.