What do you want?!

[Metalligod]

Ok, in my arguments with various Totse-ers, the question 'why' comes up often. This 'why' is followed by, '...should we believe in God, when He's given us no reason to', (or something very similar)..

So my question is this, what the hell would you like Him to do? In this world we live in, we don't believe anything, not even what we see. We know/think there's a way that anyone could do various 'magic' tricks that ppl see.

If God came and began to perform 'things', would you then believe that it is Him?

I think that if God came to Earth and said who He was, ppl would think He's crazy, and then if He began to do, supernatural things, ppl would think He's a magician. Therefore all of His performances were just illusion.

What is it that you ppl would want Him to do? Because, again, whatever it may be, I don't think you'd believe He was who He was even if He performed whatever you may ask of Him.

Yah thats a good point man so many atheists have this really closed mind to any type of miracles you can be an atheist but keep an open mind

[Craftian]

"so many atheists have this really closed mind to any type of miracles"

Really? Do you have any examples of miracles that are known to have happened that atheists deny?

If God is omniscient and omnipotent, He knows exactly what would convince me and and is capable of doing it. That He hasn't makes me think that He doesn't want me to believe.

But we've played this game before; what miracle would convince me?

If I went outside one night and all the stars spelled out "Jesus is Lord", permanent and visible by everybody on the planet (for bonus points it can appear to everybody in their own language).

If there were reason to think that people of one religion (as a group) were significantly more successful than those of every other religion (accounting for other factors such as income and location).

If I am struck by lightning when I type the period at the end of this sentence (for reference, I'm in a basement and the sky is blue).

.

.

Hmm, still here.

There are an infinte number of ways for a god to reveal itself convincingly. Who knows; maybe one did 2000 years ago, but I'm not going to believe this on the word of an ancient holy text.

[Metalligod]

Craft, I worte up a badass response that just puked on everything you've said, but the GODDAMNED TOTSE FUCKIN SERVERS FUCKED IT UP!!!!!!

To all-:I highly recommend prewriting on a NotePad or MS Word sheet, cutting and pasting, cuz Totse might delete your shit:

[evolove]

Why would he in the first place?....How many of your friends come and vissit after you shit all over they're lawn?

The good ones do.

Miracles are cheap, souls are expensive.

Miracles were pretty rare, even in the bible.

[Craftian]

Yeah, but they DID happen.

I guess God gave up on miracles some time around 33 AD.

[I_Like_Traffic_Lights]

The whole omnipotent and omniscient trip don't hold much water when it's tied to one person. If someone knew the whole time an action you were going to take but couldn't do anything about it then how is that infinite power? If someone knew the whole time an action you would take then could change the action you would take, then what he knows wouldn't be what he knows anymore.

Everything that has ever been born, having the ability to change itself it's surroundings, to build and create, to destroy and to change, there's a lot of power laced between all those lives.

Everything that has ever thought, throughout time all thoughts all beliefes all knowledge inscribed. Why, together they know everything.

There's a number recorded in the NT that would have occured considerably after 33. People still claim miracles happen today.

Miracles can be fabricated, or written off, even Jesus understood that- when challenged for proof of his diety he wouldn't just "pull one out of his arse", he usually pointed to his future resurrection as the only proof needed.

Here's something that's stuck with me, for a long time.

When I was in Florida at the age of 8, I was swimming in the sea, my dad there too. I had salt water in my mouth so I ran onto the beach to get a drink, my dad having to chase after me. In the haste of it all, my dad lost his glasses to the sea. I can't remember how, I just remember this happening.

It was my fault somehow and I felt really guilty so whilst my parents were away trying to find the glasses I prayed to God. They couldn't find them so they came and sat down on the beach with me. Later a woman came up to us and asked had we lost a pair of glasses because she had seen us look for something and she and her son had been looking for a lost pair of goggles.

They had ended up going in the water and trapped under some sand, right beside a ton of shells. Not a scratch was on them. I know this could be pure coincidence and chance, but it's almost like a miracle to me. I don't think I'll forget it too fast.

[noraa_boy]

Which god did you pray to? "Miracles" like this happen to people with other gods as well.

What's the point of your story?

No more miracle's happened after the death of the annointed after Jesus's death. There is no need for them as all the information and the perfect human sacrifice has already been made.

Yet this wont convince any atheists/agnostics as they dont have faith, so can brush points like this away easily.

I was raised in a atheist family, my family became religious-i learned a lot about the bible and cant shrug it off from my life.

Although i left the church, i am still very religious and persue it in my own time. To do the acid test, i'd like to see the atheists read the bible through, ask someone skilled in reading the bible for interpretations (not someone caught up in dogma) and then try and brush it aside so easily.

It takes time, but then after you have done all this then come to me and brush aside issues of faith so easily.

I wouldn't have it provide me miricals. I'd just want to know some answers. Though I realize the primary problem for me is freedom. That is all I want answers and to live out my life.

[dr_rock]

what would i want God to do:

1) stop all famine

2) stop all murders

3)stop all raping (rapping too )

4)stop wars

of course if he came and did even one of these everyone would just think it was a trick

[Craftian]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

Yet this wont convince any atheists/agnostics as they dont have faith, so can brush points like this away easily.

Yeah, funny how easy it is to ignore silly claims if you don't presuppose them to be true.

quote:To do the acid test, i'd like to see the atheists read the bible through, ask someone skilled in reading the bible for interpretations (not someone caught up in dogma) and then try and brush it aside so easily.

How do we determine who is "skilled in reading the bible"? I bet that for anybody you think is skilled I can find another Christian who thinks they're caught up in dogma.

There are more interpretations of the Bible than there are churches. How do we distinguish between them?

quote:It takes time, but then after you have done all this then come to me and brush aside issues of faith so easily.

The Bible is silly; the Bible is dull; the Bible is long. There are far more interesting (and relevant) books my time could be better spent reading, and if God is pissed off because I don't want to read his book the way you want me to THEN SO BE IT.

[noraa_boy]

nevermind:

I suppose then that you have applied your acid test to every other religion out there. After all, it would only be fair to give them a chance.

EDIT: Stupid bold tag.



[This message has been edited by noraa_boy (edited 06-09-2004).]

[Fuck]

Why can't you find God?

For the same reason you cannot sit still and concentrate on the breath alone.

That's what I think, though thinking is such an obstacle these days to where I desire to be...

[evolove]

Amen Brother

[whocares123]

quote:Originally posted by Craftian:

Yeah, but they DID happen.

I guess God gave up on miracles some time around 33 AD.

Depends what you think of as a "miracle."

I think the real problem is, people just take things for granted too much. It's all about how you look at it. You could be experiencing a "miracle" right now and not even acknowledge it, you ungrateful bastard.

As for your list, Craft, of things that would have to happen for you to believe in God, I don't know if you're being completely serious, but all that is just ridiculous. It's easy for someone to believe in something if they have undeniable proof of it. God's all about tests of faith. Every second that a "miracle" doesn't happen to you in your life is a test of faith. It's easy to love something that is always good to you, you love the things it does for you, not it itself. The test is "it" wants to know if you'll still love it when it stops doing favors for you, and starts letting bad things happen.

God isn't going to give you proof like that of his existance. He expects you to take his word for it and have faith. You said:

"If there were reason to think that people of one religion (as a group) were significantly more successful than those of every other religion (accounting for other factors such as income and location)."

That's just ridiculous. God's not necessarily going to treat someone who believes in him and tries to be a good person any better than an atheist. Not on Earth anyway. Like I said, it's all about test of faith.

I could say more but I'm very fucking tired now and I don't think I'm getting across what I want to. Ah..dammit. Continue this later.

[Craftian]

Alright, I'm glad somebody finally comes out and admits it.

If I have to believe something completely just because somebody else says it's a good idea to I'm never going to.

I can just as easily ask you to have faith in Ganesh.

I am of the opinion that belief in things that you can never have evidence of is immoral. If there are any gods, then they know this and it would be immoral of them to punish me for refusing to believe without a reason.

quote:That's just ridiculous. God's not necessarily going to treat someone who believes in him and tries to be a good person any better than an atheist.

Of course not necessarily. He's not necessarily going to rearrange the stars in the sky either; but Metalligod didn't ask about things that God would necessarily do, he asked about things that would make me believe.

Metalligod,

Everything you've stated has already come to pass with negative results. During the time of Moses, miracles were a regular occurance. But what is a miracle? It's something that defies the laws of nature. But think of the Israelites that were led out of Egypt. They were literally fed by God for 40 years. Because this "miracle" happened everyday, it ceased to be a miracle to them. It became the 'norm'. Jesus Himsel has stated that the time of miracles is over because of this wicked and alduterous generation, until of course He comes back for His bride. the answer is if God provides miracles, peoples motives for believing are all wrong. They will worship out of fear and reverance instead of because He IS... I'm willing to bet that people still on a high average would still choose to not believe, or at the least, continue to disobey His commands. People who are in the dark, hate the light. They are content with their debauchery.... But we all know deep down they are miserable people who ferret out ways to disprove the Word of God. To their folly, though. The fact that the Bible, still, to this day recieves more attention, whtether it be positive or negative, than any other subject. that, in and of itself is an evidence that God is still in control. Have you ever thought why people come in here to debate about something they don't believe in? Why would you focus so much energy towards something you allege, doesn't exist? And if it doesn't exist, it's pointless to even talk about, cause you can't disprove a negative, ever. This is the power of God... No one can make Him a fool. He is still very much in control and does exactly what He intends. God is long-suffering, but not slack... And when the time comes, the world will never be the same again, and when it happens, they will remember the words spoken. They will be in terror because they have denied a free gift. All you have to do is ask.

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Ok, in my arguments with various Totse-ers, the question 'why' comes up often. This 'why' is followed by, '...should we believe in God, when He's given us no reason to', (or something very similar)..

So my question is this, what the hell would you like Him to do? In this world we live in, we don't believe anything, not even what we see. We know/think there's a way that anyone could do various 'magic' tricks that ppl see.

If God came and began to perform 'things', would you then believe that it is Him?

I think that if God came to Earth and said who He was, ppl would think He's crazy, and then if He began to do, supernatural things, ppl would think He's a magician. Therefore all of His performances were just illusion.

What is it that you ppl would want Him to do? Because, again, whatever it may be, I don't think you'd believe He was who He was even if He performed whatever you may ask of Him.

Wasn't a second-coming supposed to happen in 2000? Like wasn't Judgement supposed to occur? a little help here.



(btw, Nemesis_Juggernaut go to the thread I started)

[truckfixr]

Originally posted by Nemesis_Juggernaut:

Jesus Himsel has stated that the time of miracles is over because of this wicked and alduterous generation, until of course He comes back for His bride.



This is a convenient way to avoid having to show any proof.



the answer is if God provides miracles, peoples motives for believing are all wrong. They will worship out of fear and reverance instead of because He IS...

If actual miracles were performed (not just some magician's tricks)that could not be attributed to natural ocurring phenomena, people would believe in God because they would know for a fact that He exists.

The majority of people who worship a God now , do so for the wrong reasons.

Try this. Walk up to almost any Christian and ask them why they believe.The # 1 reason is to save their soul from damnation in Hell. Very seldom will their first response be " because HE IS..."



People who are in the dark, hate the light. They are content with their debauchery.... But we all know deep down they are miserable people who ferret out ways to disprove the Word of God.

I don't consider myself to be "in the dark". I am not a miserable person by any stretch of the imagination.I do not feel the need to disprove the "Word Of God", as I have seen no proof that the bible or any other religious texts are inspired by a God.If you cannot prove that God exists, you cannot prove that the Bible is the "Word Of God".



To their folly, though. The fact that the Bible, still, to this day recieves more attention, whtether it be positive or negative, than any other subject. that, in and of itself is an evidence that God is still in control.

Actually,it is only evidence that religion is deeply ingrained in society, whether a God exists or not.



Have you ever thought why people come in here to debate about something they don't believe in? Why would you focus so much energy towards something you allege, doesn't exist? And if it doesn't exist, it's pointless to even talk about, cause you can't disprove a negative, ever.

Have you ever considered the possibility that people who haven't really formed an opinion may like to read responses from people with views which differ from your's?



This is the power of God... No one can make Him a fool. He is still very much in control and does exactly what He intends.



Of course no one can make Him a fool.Why would anyone who does not believe in Him waste the effort? The ones who are fools are the people who blindly follow without even making an honest attempt to discover their own truths.