do clones go to heaven?

I was wondering if i cloned myself, and i raised myself, what would be up with my soul? Also, which me would go to heaven, if there is a list that ST Peter has.

No.

[sp0rkius]

quote:Originally posted by Evolved:

No.

So you're saying if I had a heart attack and I had my heart replaced with a clone grown from stem cells, when I went to heaven I wouldn't have a heart? Doesn't sound like e very heavenly experiance to me... I'd get pretty cold. Or maybe people with cloned hearts all go to hell because that sort of thing (i.e. the progress of medicine and the saving of countless lives) is morally wrong?

[Metalligod]

quote:Originally posted by alucard2789:

I was wondering if i cloned myself, and i raised myself, what would be up with my soul? Also, which me would go to heaven, if there is a list that ST Peter has.

A clone is no more than a genetic copy. Meaning it would only have the same dna. Not soul. A soul is not something that exist in the physical world. Meaning it's not manipulative like dna. It can't be touched, copied, or trapped by any physical force.

If someone has your dna, that's all they have. It's no different from making a child with a woman. -Meaning it's just like making a child with someone.- The only difference would be instead of having half of your dna, and half of hers. It would have all of your dna, and no need for someone elses. But still a diff. person.

(I know that I said "there will be no difference", and then said, "the only difference", so anybody who decides they want to point it out don't even bother.)

[SEN D-F]

Im sure the clone would have a soul. Not your soul, but a soul of its own.

[Metal_Demon]

Before the organized sheeple attack me for my views, here is a disclaimer. This is MY opinion, and if you are not willing to argue against it in an intelligent manner, you can fuck right off.



Considering that souls don't exist, and that all your conciousness consists of is electrical impulses firing off in your brain, and if said impulses stop, you die. No heaven, just a long, dreamless sleep. That goes for both clones and people concieved normally. Your conciousness is just collective memory, which is your identity.

On another subject, lets say you made a clone and had your brain uploaded to it...it would still be you, just in a different body.

[This message has been edited by Metal_Demon (edited 04-12-2004).]

Hey, Metalligod...is a soul made out of quarks?

quote:Originally posted by sp0rkius:

So you're saying if I had a heart attack and I had my heart replaced with a clone grown from stem cells, when I went to heaven I wouldn't have a heart?

What i'm saying is that you are gay.

[Metalligod]

quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

Hey, Metalligod...is a soul made out of quarks?

Hey Ashes, why would you ask such a gay ass question?

Fag?

Are you going to gayly follow me around for eternity, because I proved you wrong?

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-12-2004).]

I asked a simple question. You flamed me. Let it be known that you started this.

That being said:

as stated by Metalligod:

...We are taught, that the subatomic parts of an atom were the definate elementary parts of which everything is made...

as stated by Metalligod:

...So the fuck what, about the neutron star. It does not matter WHAT atoms make it up. We know that everything is indeed comprised of atoms, the fact that it once had...

as stated by Metalligod:

...I never stated that matter was energy. Those are your own words, and your own understanding of things. I said that everything, meaning all material, is comprised of atoms. This means matter is not energy, but is made of energy...

as stated by Metalligod:

I was talking of material. Not all the shit you and he say. I even believe I stated that... ...you 2 are hilarious, i never said matter was immeterial. name one thing that can be touched that does not have atoms...

as stated by Metalligod:

...I went on to say that atoms weren't the smallest particles that make us and everything else. I went further to say protons and neutrons were made of quarks and that maybe one day we'll figure how to arrange things to create life. And one day we might be able to split even quarks...

as stated by Metalligod:

...Matter- the substance of which a physical object is composed... ...By definition, the things you love to use so often, I was correct. Everything is made of atoms besides the subatomic particles them selfeves and different energies...

(Context preserved as well as is possible)

source:

material 1: relating to, derived from, or consisting of matter... ...PHYSICAL ...

So, then, is the soul material, or immaterial? Are you sure?

If it does not exist physically, how can you show that it does, in fact, exist?

Does this sufficiently clarify the point that I was trying to make?

quote:Originally posted by alucard2789:

I was wondering if i cloned myself, and i raised myself, what would be up with my soul? Also, which me would go to heaven, if there is a list that ST Peter has.

Not sure about the soul, but considering the fact that cloning yourself would be a big sin, I'd say that you would end up in hell anyways.

If the clone had a soul, both of you could make it to heaven (assuming that God forgives

you for cloning yourself), or hell. Whatever.

If the clone had no soul, his existence would

end with his physical death, since there would be no "soul" that could go anywhere.

[Metalligod]

quote:Originally posted by ashesofzen:

[I asked a simple question. You flamed me...

If you want to bitch about misquoting and then misquote me fine. But take it to the correct forum you fuckin faggot!

I also said several times that I was talking about, THINGS THAT CAN BE TOUCHED. MATERIAL THINGS. MATTER.

Now did I or did I not point all those things out as well? Did I not make clear what I was talking about, or what I meant?

Go play your faggot ass childish games with someone else. You follow me around to make false claims, time after time. So many times that you've made me make false claims. You are ill-informed and try to take it out on me, because you don't know much.

I have no need, nor time for your shit. So why don't you just quit. If you wanna fuckin quote me, quote everything bitch! Quote the corrections made, quote the rest of the fuckin paragraphs you quote from. Quote the explainations.

It's not my fault that you say stupid shit, and that you don't know much on the matters you feel the need to speak inaccurately on.

Then you ask gay fuckin questions like:"So, then, is the soul material, or immaterial? Are you sure?"

Can souls be touched? Are they Pysical things? NO! I said several times that souls are not of the physical world.(my belief, to clarify for any1 else who considers asking dumb questions) Souls can't be manipulated.

Do you now see how stupid you sound asking such questions?

And also:If it does not exist physically, how can you show that it does, in fact, exist?

Now did I, or did I not say that souls where basically our personalities? You can prove that it exists by knowing someone, you then know their PERSONALITY. Dumbass!

Did I or did I not say:I think your soul is what makes you different from everyone else. It just carries the essence of who you are. Meaning your personality, what you knew, everything that makes you, you.

And then I get:"Does this sufficiently clarify the point that I was trying to make?"

No it does not, because it does not PHYSICALLY EXIST! Plz, go ask someone else stupid questions.

Bull shit questions concluded.

[This message has been edited by Metalligod (edited 04-15-2004).]

[Lovley]

clones are people too

they rot in the ground just like every other fucking human being.

Metalligod:

If you want to bitch about misquoting and then misquote me fine. But take it to the correct forum you fuckin faggot!

I misquoted you?

I also said several times that I was talking about, THINGS THAT CAN BE TOUCHED. MATERIAL THINGS. MATTER.

Now did I or did I not point all those things out as well? Did I not make clear what I was talking about, or what I meant?

If something has no material equivalent, how can you say it exists?

Go play your faggot ass childish... ...Quote the explainations.

It's not my job to run around and retroactively edit my posts just because you change what you say to look better (or whatever your motive may be...but that's the only motive I can see for such conduct).

And if I quoted you in full, it'd take far more space than is worth the time. If you hadn't noticed, I included links for all of my quotes above, so that an interested party could double-check.

...Can souls be touched? Are they Pysical things? NO! I said several times that souls are not of the physical world.(my belief, to clarify for any1 else who considers asking dumb questions) Souls can't be manipulated.

Again, if a soul has no material equivalent, how do you know it, in fact, exists?

...Now did I, or did I not say that souls where basically our personalities? You can prove that it exists by knowing someone, you then know their PERSONALITY. Dumbass!

So if you mean, by soul, one's personality, why the hell are you using the word soul? Why not just say "personality" instead and have your point that much clearer?

Also (from Merriam-Webster Online):

soul: 1: the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life 2a: the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe 3: a person's total self 4a: an active or essential part 4b: a moving spirit--LEADER 5a: the moral and emotional nature of human beings 5b: the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment 5c: spiritual or moral force

personality: 1a: the quality or state of being a person 1b: personal existence 2a: the condition or fact of relating to a particular person; specifically: the condition of referring directly to or being aimed disparagingly or hostilely at an individual 2b: an offensively personal remark <angrily resorted to personalities> 3: the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group; especially: the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics 4a: distinction or excellence of personal and social traits; also: a person having such quality 4b: a person of importance, prominence, renown, or notoriety <a TV personality>

The terms are not equivalent.

Metalligod:

Did I or did I not say:I think your soul is what makes you different from everyone else. It just carries the essence of who you are. Meaning your personality, what you knew, everything that makes you, you.

What you say isn't so important to me. If you don't believe that there is no physical equivalent, then, none of this metaphysical gobbledegook has any value, whatsoever.

If you're talking about the soul, then the best you can do is say:

A clone will not have the same exact body, and will not experience the same experiences as the source of the genetic material, therefore it is most likely that their minds will not be the same.

edit: Format repair.

[This message has been edited by ashesofzen (edited 04-15-2004).]

[sp0rkius]

Evolved, your intelligent reply has just raised the entire forum's opinion of Christians sky high. Well done.

Metalligod, give up. You have no idea what you're talking about, you've missed the premise of Ashes' argument time and again, and you've made hypocritical statments as to make my eyes hurt.

[Metalligod]

Ashes, I explained things very clearly and you ask questions I've already answered.

As for Sporkious or however it's spelled, plz show me what CONTRADICTIONS I've made. I'd love to see them.

If so you wish to believe.

[sp0rkius]

quote:Originally posted by Metalligod:

Ashes, I explained things very clearly and you ask questions I've already answered.

As for Sporkious or however it's spelled, plz show me what CONTRADICTIONS I've made. I'd love to see them.

I didn't say you made any contradictions. I said you were a hypocrite.

[Metalligod]

Oh, I'm so very sorry sir.

How am I a hypocrit.

u guys are sad cunts...

[sp0rkius]

quote:You follow me around to make false claims

quote:You are ill-informed and try to take it out on me, because you don't know much.

quote:Do you now see how stupid you sound asking such questions?

quote:

Hey Ashes, why would you ask such a gay ass question?

Actually, that's pretty weak. Ok, so you're not much of a hypocrite, but you're still confused.

Metalligod:

...I have no need, nor time for your shit. So why don't you just quit. If you wanna fuckin quote me, quote everything bitch! Quote the corrections made, quote the rest of the fuckin paragraphs you quote from. Quote the explainations.

It's not my fault that you say stupid shit, and that you don't know much on the matters you feel the need to speak inaccurately on...

So, it's not your fault that I say stupid shit, and yet I'm supposed to run around and edit all of my quotes when you decide to get rid of your stupid shit.

Isn't that a double standard?

That is, you don't have to worry about accuracy, but I do?

ermm hardly anyone goes to heaven. its complicated....but the earth was designed to be lived on, not everyone going to heaven. What would be the point of the earth if Jesus forgave all our sins, then armageddon comes along only for the earth to be left uninhabbited(sp?) as everyone has gone to heaven? what would be the point of adam and eve if they were supposed to live forever on earth perfectly, why would god then change his mind for the earth and abandon it to allow everyone to heaven?? the church doesnt make much sense of the bible...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Ecclesiastes 1:4

A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite

<LI>Psalm 104:5

5 He has founded the earth upon its established places;

It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.

</UL>

theres a whole big load of stuff about only a certain number of people going to heaven-but as far as the bible says-everyone is staying on the earth, only a few chosen going to heaven. but the earth is supposed to become a paradise and everyone live perfect lives on the earth, so no, clones do not go to heaven

[sp0rkius]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind:

ermm hardly anyone goes to heaven. its complicated....but the earth was designed to be lived on, not everyone going to heaven. What would be the point of the earth if Jesus forgave all our sins, then armageddon comes along only for the earth to be left uninhabbited(sp?) as everyone has gone to heaven? what would be the point of adam and eve if they were supposed to live forever on earth perfectly, why would god then change his mind for the earth and abandon it to allow everyone to heaven?? the church doesnt make much sense of the bible...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Ecclesiastes 1:4

A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite

<LI>Psalm 104:5

5 He has founded the earth upon its established places;

It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.

</UL>

theres a whole big load of stuff about only a certain number of people going to heaven-but as far as the bible says-everyone is staying on the earth, only a few chosen going to heaven. but the earth is supposed to become a paradise and everyone live perfect lives on the earth, so no, clones do not go to heaven

No clones at all? Even if they otherwise qualify for a place? Surely some people must go to Heaven - same with the Earth, what's the point in Heaven if it's going to be uninhabited? If both Heaven and Earth are going to be inhabited after the armageddon then the question still stands.

[Metalligod]

I have to agree with sporkious even though he's a lame liar.

To say that a clone wouldn't be able to go to heaven in the event that the bible is true. Is completely stupid.

I really hope this is a joke.

this is not a joke, and metalligod, i like your opinions on this, so thank you

Stare at this word for a while. Please.





Abandoned