For d4v3: My Argument for Perfection's Existence

[Direckshun]

Perfection must exist.

Many people believe it cannot objectively exist. And if you are one of those people, please take a whack at this, because I want to see if it works:

If perfection didn't exist, the claim that "Perfection doesn't exist" would be perfect. Therefore perfection must exist.

It's a little bit confusing, and if it doesn't work, oh well.

But it's an interesting brain nugget, you gotta give me that.

[---Beany---]

Why limit the conversation down to a guy who hasn't posted here for ages?

[Direckshun]

Well it was d4v3 that I had the extended discourse with. I didn't think anybody else really cared.

But if anyone else feels compelled to comment, consider this an invite!

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 10-05-2003).]

[---Beany---]

Well I agree that perfection exists.

To give a simple example. "2" is the perfect answer to 1+1.

Maths is perfect. Apparently life can be explained through maths, so that suggests that life is perfect?

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 09-30-2003).]

[Fuck]

The more and more I seem to hear about physics, and how nature works... how our brain works, how our genes work (and right now we're just peering out of our little corner of the universe)... everything seems to almost be perfect. Not morally maybe, not justified depending on our moods or beliefs, but it almost seems as if things are working EXACTLY as they should be in a very detailed design we call the universe...

Imagine... everything already is perfect. Just imagine it for a second. Embrace everything in your mind, the things you call "evil" and the things you call "good". Drop these labels and imagine life neutrally for a minute. Imagine that this is exactly how everything is supposed to be.

Calculating something like this is like calculating infinity... just take a look at the fractal computer images, look at the spiral of the galaxy and imagine a universe like that....

eh, Im babbling on again. I'm also going off about fate, which kind of is perfection I guess... I dunno. Maybe perfection exists, maybe it doesn't. I'm sure we'll all figure it out one day.

Actually, before anything else, you should define what "perfect" means. If it is defined as flawless, then how are flaws defined? Perection is an impossible, incomprehendable term. If all other adjectives (good, bad, beautiful, efficient...) were agreed upon, and agreed to be objective, perhaps we could talk about something being perfect. But really that's not related because we haven't defined perfection yet, and I would like to see someone giving such denition that isn't paradoxal.

[Dark_Magneto]

"Perfection" is a subjective value asesessment ad therefore of no real use.

Things like physical perfection or actual infinites don't exist. They are theoretical concepts and ideals.

[Direckshun]

I gotta disagree Magneto.

I do think that something that is perfect entails a plethora of characteristics that make it that way - such a large volume of characteristics, however, that no finite mind would recognize something perfect if we were face-to-face with it.

So does anybody have anything to say about my argument at the top of the page?

[iAmTheLlama]

Theirs only one perfect thing, that thing has been named god. Try and follow with me.

To be perfect you must nderstand all and know and help all.

Lets start here. You would have to be able to help every one, thus having to know every thing about every one. Then you would have to be able to understand things that even humans cant know. So you would have to be able to see the other dimensions around you and be able to contro lthem also. to control a dimension you must be it. and since all dimension are linked you must be all dimensions. and all dimension contain love and fear thus now, you are the only person who truly know what love and fear is. to complete this though, you have just became everything, which is god, whom is perfect.

i know its very hard to understand, its really late. I will edit it later when i can organize my thoughts.

[TigerJK]

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

Theirs only one perfect thing, that thing has been named god. Try and follow with me.

To be perfect you must nderstand all and know and help all.

For God's perfection to be noticed, there must be some form of imperfection to compare it with. (ie the state of the world today)

The world today, however, falls under the responsibility of God. Therefore, God's doing something wrong, for the world to be imperfect. Inherent paradox.

I can't reconcile 'God is everything' and 'God is perfect', unless everything is automatically assumed to be perfect. (In which case nothing's really being proven)

[Direckshun]

Well iAmTheLlama, it could be because you were late, but I found your post very hard to accept. I'll give you a brief run-through as to why.

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

To be perfect you must nderstand all and know and help all.

Not necessarily. This is where you lose me.

My problem is that we have absolutely no basis on which to believe this. I cannot bring myself to accept this right off the bat - perhaps you have an argument as to why this is so?

I'll repeat what I said earlier - to be perfect is to be beyond all chances of imperfection. But the list of all possible imperfections is so long, and almost the entire list is unknown to us for a variety of reasons that we could never comprehend.

I'm willing to bet that perfection does exist, but it entails so much more complexity than merely what our finite minds can grasp. Therefore, even if we found ourselves face-to-face with perfection, we wouldn't know it.

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

You would have to be able to help every one, thus having to know every thing about every one.

Who says knowing more = being closer to perfect?

How is knowledge closer to perfect than a void of knowledge?

And why would a perfect being be automatically obligated to helping others?

I believe you are imposing your own definitions of what you think is good and bad and making out "good" to be equal to "more perfect." This is a faulty way to go about defining perfection because it is completely subjective.

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

Then you would have to be able to understand things that even humans cant know.

And why must something that is perfect be something that is conscious or aware of itself?

Is there no possibility that a chair could be perfect? Or a straight line?

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

So you would have to be able to see the other dimensions around you and be able to contro lthem also.

Who says perfection entails control?

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

to control a dimension you must be it.

And this doesn't make sense to me. Why?

quote:Originally posted by iAmTheLlama:

and all dimension contain love and fear thus now, you are the only person who truly know what love and fear is.

How do you know all dimensions contain love and fear?

Have you been to other dimensions?

If so, why haven't you sent me a postcard?

[Direckshun]

quote:Originally posted by TigerJK:

For God's perfection to be noticed, there must be some form of imperfection to compare it with.

What? Why?

I mean - I may agree with you here, but I don't understand what you're saying.

quote:Originally posted by TigerJK:

I can't reconcile 'God is everything' and 'God is perfect', unless everything is automatically assumed to be perfect.

Absolutely - I agree.

The thing is, iAmTheLlama assumes that perfection can only come in the form of a conscious being (God) that not only controls everything else (the universe), but also is everything else.

None of this follows logically from anything else, however.