My problem with 70% of 'witches'

My problem with many "Witches" is that they are pre-tenn or teen assholes who go to their library after reading Harry Potter and see a book called "Love Spells" or "Book of Spells to make you rich". They think all witchcraft is is lighting a bunch of candles and saying stuff they don't understand. I recall a girl who when i was in school who had a book call "100 Love Spells for a Teenage witch" even though i do not practice witchcraft nor do i worship Wiccan gods/godesses, i find these people to be a disgrace to a fine religion which has been around for a long, long time. I was also at the book store and there was a 12 year old kid, he probably just finished the new Harry Potter book and he sees a shiny book called 'Book of Spells' and he just starts reading, not expecting anything except how to make a wand and say words to make a girl like him. I am not saying ALL witches/practitioners of Wicca are like this, but i just hate little kids who do the things i stated. What do real Wiccans/Pagans/Neo-Pagans/Witches think about these people?

[SanityDeprived]

Definately have to agree with you there. It's become a game for people. Whether or not you believe in it it's still a disgrace that these kids are dabbling in crap they don't understand. It's sad

[ChaosWyrm]

It's bad, yes, but not really much different from how the same percentage and cross section of Christians go about their little way with their book of a bunch of words they don't understand and series of rituals that they have no clue as to the true meaning, origins, or purpose of.....and who go about their ignorant little lives thinking that that book and that bread and wine will save them from death....or even worse...that it will save me...and they need to prove it to me.

[Metal_Demon]

I could not agree with you more. Kids eat up trends though (just look at rap), and there is really nothing anybody can do. I believe the only true witch is one who can follow the rules of Wicca, Which include never using magic to harm another person unless absolutley necessary. Most people don't know that so I thought I'd share it. There is some Wiccan code of conduct sort of thing that I read somewhere, it has other stuff like that too.



Witches are not evil, and Wicca in itself is evil in no way. So to all you little goth kids that know nothing about this sort of thing, leave Wicca alone, it's not evil, it's not impressing anyone, if you are waving it around to look "evil".



-MD

[This message has been edited by Metal_Demon (edited 07-14-2003).]

[drake of the flame]

yo....i agree...even though i am reallitivly new to this religion...2 years.. i do see ppl doing things like that..i dont like it.....but sence ppl are here...is there anymore pagans aroung.....just wonderin..

[Wyrm]

Damn strait. Im an enochian... well kinda, Dee was ,in my opinion, FUCKING NUTS on some of the aspects, but i hate hate people that think that basing thier most personal part of themselves, thier soul, on a trend is cool.

That sentance had a lot of commas in it, didn't it?

[Chicki5150]

Im a witch/pagan, and yeah its annoying when people adopt 'wicca' or 'witchcraft' for novelty purposes, or becuase they have seen the craft 4395756738349 times.

I bet a good 50% of self proclaimed wiccans out there have never even read the Wiccan Rede, or have no idea what 'and ye harm none, do what ye will' means.

In every religion, wether it be christianaity, wicca or anything, there are people who misrepresent them, and who give that religion a bad name

~Chicki

[ArmsMerchant]

Yeah, I been to my share of pagan gatherings, and there was a lot of well, posing and posturing and ignorance. Just like in Christianity.

The Gardnerians looked down on the

solitaries, and the ceremonial magicians looked down on everyone. I had a lot of spurious status being a card-carrying (tribal card, not BIA card--the BIA does not recognize the Muscogee Nation)redskin, and I got real tired of being fawned over by the wannabe Indians.

Still, wicca is a gentle sort of belief system, and I would rather be around a plastic wiccan than a "real" Christian fundy.

[malaria]

My Indian History professor was one of those who just loved everything Indian, even though he wasn't Indian. He wants to be an Indian so very badly.

Ok that was off-topic, but I do have something to add. People who practice a non-ethnic religion are just silly.

[[eXo5]Metal]

someone explain this wiccan religion to me please? this sounds interesting and im not saying this because I read harry potter i read these books to occupy my time ive never picked up a spell book except for like you said when a goth punk handed me a book and said hey look at this then i skimmed thru and said "bullshit" but now that theres all these people talkin about it does Wiccan magic really exist and what is a Paegan? id like to think its a warlock or wizard of some sort alrite well someone please tell me what some of these things are thanks for your time

[Me Miakia]

I agree, there are a lot of them out here. Really really annoying, they run around thinking they can cast and do as they please because they have read maybe ONE book on witchcraft or magick of a kind. Complete B.S. if you ask me..

-miakia

I am a 16 year old Wiccan, and have never even picked up a Harry Potter book. I found out about Wicca on Religious Tolerance, and started studying. Two years later, my faith in Wicca has held strong.

I do admit that people who act like they are Wiccan because they read Harry Potter or a spell book is irritating. But, there are people like that in every religion, it seems.

quote:Originally posted by [eXo5]Metal:

someone explain this wiccan religion to me please? this sounds interesting and im not saying this because I read harry potter i read these books to occupy my time ive never picked up a spell book except for like you said when a goth punk handed me a book and said hey look at this then i skimmed thru and said "bullshit" but now that theres all these people talkin about it does Wiccan magic really exist and what is a Paegan? id like to think its a warlock or wizard of some sort alrite well someone please tell me what some of these things are thanks for your time

Yes, Wiccan magic really exists. Wicca is a nature based religion that worships both a Goddess and a God. They follow the Wiccan Rede, which states "And it harm none, do what ye wilt." That would be the most basic explanation.

A warlock, in Old English, means oathbreaker. The term warlock is rarely used in the USA to describe a male witch, as it is a deroagatory term.

If you would like to learn more...go to this website...http:../../www.religioustolerance.org._5f3cbr/default.htm>


[This message has been edited by CelestialRaeyvn (edited 07-17-2003).]

[Fuck]

I agree about the poser thing. It's everywhere these days.

*shrug* whaddya gonna do...

quote:I am a 16 year old Wiccan, and have never even picked up a Harry Potter book. I found out about Wicca on Religious Tolerance, and started studying. Two years later, my faith in Wicca has held strong.

you are one of a kind lol

my main problem is also with kids who look at Wicca as a way to piss off their parents or to say that they 'worship satan' which is total bullshit.

And good point about Christians being the same way, now i look at my past and laugh.

Im not a wicca but im interested in it, is there any proof that this "Magic" really works? Im just wondering.

[TigerJK]

The problem at hand appears to be the willingness of the masses to mindlessly embrace social phenomena to make up their personal identities.

Mainstream pop culture is an excellent example.

However, when it comes to something as significant as faith, being cool, or fitting in with peers is not sufficient justification.

Here in Australia the census lists Witchcraft as the fastest growing religion.... great, stupid posers are gaining numbers.

Then again, we were home to the petition of people saying that "Jedi" was a legitimate religion

some of us Australian's are just insane.

BTW, proper Witchcraft rules. Down with New Age Witchcraft!!!!

[UrbnTbone]

I think the whole Harry Potter thing is a classical way recuperation of some mass-stirring, authentical movement. The best way to counter some path that offers true individual development vs. what the system likes, namely dogmas that brainwash masses, is to recuperate while denaturing the real stream.

That is just some manifestation of the adversity principle: anything new or renewed, that doesn't serve the system's interests, will be slaughtered by the system. Nowadays the system can't burn people at the stake anymore, but it has much more powerful tools: it kills the revolution in the egg, even before it starts to live fully and bring the masses to freedom.

Now, if you are wiccan, be ready to fine-tune the way you relate to people inquiring about your path, because there's gonna be a whole mass of superficial Harry Poter subproducts asking for information, and lots of corrupt insiders to catter the shit they are asking, and the authentical wiccan will feel quite lonely.

Well, there might even be a need to filter the newbies, get rid of profitmakers and establishing some tougher guardian of the Temple.

[Ze]

All wicca is pathetic. Wicca is a mix of medieval european legends with actual serious paganist tradition elements, invented by a fake / lunatic Magician ( a guy like Alester Crowley ).

Just read the comments. One guy said " A true wiccan wouldn't harm others unless necessary ". And why is that? Because it's fair? Let me tell you something, a true occultist is ABOVE fair. A true occultist turns the other cheek, because that's an evolutive action. And a true occultist seeks evolution.

[Ze]

Also witchcraft is a FEMALE ONLY thing. Males who practice witchcraft elements usuallly end up being homosexuals or at least efiminates ( no kidding ) since they deal with such intense feminine forces.



If you'r interested in serious esoterism I recommend reading everything by Eliphas Levi and Papus, for starters. Of course, and no offense meant, you probably will get tired of it ANYWAY.

i agree completley. the idea of being a "witch" is really appealing to alot of kids and that whole they read harry potter thing so they are like cool witch shit is really true too. rock on

[UrbnTbone]

quote:Originally posted by Ze:

Also witchcraft is a FEMALE ONLY thing. Males who practice witchcraft elements usuallly end up being homosexuals or at least efiminates ( no kidding ) since they deal with such intense feminine forces.

Not a proof. Maybe they have more difficulty to perfectly integrate the female part of the mystic androgyne, while females don't push the effort that far? That is a matter of how you look at it. What is true though is, the female vessel is much stronger.

quote:



If you'r interested in serious esoterism I recommend reading everything by Eliphas Levi and Papus, for starters. Of course, and no offense meant, you probably will get tired of it ANYWAY.

I could never accept Papus' recipes. Constant-"Levi" is more interesting to me, BTW I don't agree with your contempt for AC, even though he was kind of lunatic, he did a lot of research and can be used provided you don't take him too seriously. Or you can say he was as much a lunatic as he was a vessel for revelation(the "prophet" as a traditional godly madman figure).

[Ze]

If there isn't proof of what I said then huge coincidences take place. Try joining a witchcraft irc channel in irc or something and you'll notice that a lot of the male members are present in gay channels as well. Since witchcraft is a feminine thing their masculinity more often than not becomes overwhelmed by the feminine forces they deal with.

About Papus. Why can't you accept his recipes? His basicly the same as Levi. ( he doesn't provide complete recipes or indications for high magic rituals in his books anyway, those are only present in certain books only serious orders posess ) rders )

The fact that Crowley was a lunatic, serious drug abuser, and sexual pervert nullifies any merit he might have. His contribution to the ruin of the originall Golden Dawn is one of the main reasons serious orders are so selective this days.

[Dr Kamme]

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Yeah, I been to my share of pagan gatherings, and there was a lot of well, posing and posturing and ignorance. Just like in Christianity.

The Gardnerians looked down on the

solitaries, and the ceremonial magicians looked down on everyone. I had a lot of spurious status being a card-carrying (tribal card, not BIA card--the BIA does not recognize the Muscogee Nation)redskin, and I got real tired of being fawned over by the wannabe Indians.

Still, wicca is a gentle sort of belief system, and I would rather be around a plastic wiccan than a "real" Christian fundy.

and%20plastic%20wiccans%20look%20down%20on..@%20it's based on an old system (shit, still got hedge-witches in my family) but was re-invented in the 1940s (in UK, anyway). It's only accepting dualism and learning to concentrate. ('only', well, if you know you know)

[UrbnTbone]

quote:Originally posted by Ze:

If there isn't proof of what I said then huge coincidences take place. Try joining a witchcraft irc channel in irc or something and you'll notice that a lot of the male members are present in gay channels as well. Since witchcraft is a feminine thing their masculinity more often than not becomes overwhelmed by the feminine forces they deal with.

Allright, and I can feel what you're saying in my flesh. Integrating the opposite sex is a challenge to men, more than to women. But the reason, could be from various directions. As an example you could imagine that men do the great work with their intense drive for conquest, while forgetting themselves in the process. Women would never get off their ground, because they are more grounded by nature.But that is for the research. In the facts I have to agree with you. Well, in the facts, not necessarily on the root of the question.

quote:

About Papus. Why can't you accept his recipes? His basicly the same as Levi. ( he doesn't provide complete recipes or indications for high magic rituals in his books anyway, those are only present in certain books only serious orders posess ) rders )

I read Constant ("Eliphas levi") a bit, when I was into Kabalah, and I found it very tasty. Well, I still kept my own system because it was stronger than that one.

Papus' allocations seemed real spooky though, I couldn't even get into them more than the first glance, it made no sense at all.

I even found his "tarot divinatoire" at my mom's last week, plain void to me. But I say: "to me", anyway the anchors you generate through the system you develop, are yours, not Papus'. It's how you construct your mindset. Your own egregore is the first criteria. I prefer to be very selective though. I am not into magick, more mystical kabalah anyway. Can you taste what I'm saying?

quote: The fact that Crowley was a lunatic, serious drug abuser, and sexual pervert nullifies any merit he might have. His contribution to the ruin of the originall Golden Dawn is one of the main reasons serious orders are so selective this days.

Thanks for this view, I wasn't aware, since every time I had to deal with Crowley's opponents they were fanatical lunatics, like that looney Silverlights that attacks and burns anything not wishy-washy new-agey... So it's good to hear some sane input on the topic. What about Israel Regardie? You know, his Golden Dawn encyclopedy or how is it called? And other books. I might have been a victim of marketing, but the little I read from him was real interesting. It tasted as if face to face with a mentor. Well I can't remember the two books I had from him. "Tree of life", and "psychology and kabalah" or sth the like. Annotated by that newzealand couple, GD temple founders. How do you see Israel Regardie?

[Ze]

quote:Originally posted by UrbnTbone:

Allright, and I can feel what you're saying in my flesh. Integrating the opposite sex is a challenge to men, more than to women. But the reason, could be from various directions. As an example you could imagine that men do the great work with their intense drive for conquest, while forgetting themselves in the process. Women would never get off their ground, because they are more grounded by nature.But that is for the research. In the facts I have to agree with you. Well, in the facts, not necessarily on the root of the question.

Hm so your trying to say that it's a men's nature to get so deeply involved with magic that they forget about their own masculinity right? Well

1- That's really contradictory because you'r saying that a male carachteristic can "erase" the masculinity of a man.

2- And if things were like that every man that was deepply involved in something would be a homosexual or an efeminate.

quote: I read Constant ("Eliphas levi") a bit, when I was into Kabalah, and I found it very tasty. Well, I still kept my own system because it was stronger than that one.

And that system is? (if you can tell me )

quote:

Papus' allocations seemed real spooky though, I couldn't even get into them more than the first glance, it made no sense at all.

Papus is a very important ocultist. I can't really see what you find spooky about him. He's also the founder of one of the few orders worthy of using the R+C name, the Caballistical order of Rosicruce.

quote:

I am not into magick, more mystical kabalah

He's an essential cabalist as well.

quote:

Thanks for this view, I wasn't aware, since every time I had to deal with Crowley's opponents they were fanatical lunatics, like that looney Silverlights that attacks and burns anything not wishy-washy new-agey... So it's good to hear some sane input on the topic. What about Israel Regardie? You know, his Golden Dawn encyclopedy or how is it called? And other books. I might have been a victim of marketing, but the little I read from him was real interesting. It tasted as if face to face with a mentor. Well I can't remember the two books I had from him. "Tree of life", and "psychology and kabalah" or sth the like. Annotated by that newzealand couple, GD temple founders. How do you see Israel Regardie?

Those books he published were only a mean to obtain money by sharing some of the basics of occultism with the public. The content wasn't anything new.

Thelema, the "Magickal system" founded by Crowley, says that one should do anything he desires, and free himself from the feeling of guilt. This is just a way Crowley and others like him found of justifying their sexual, material and drug excesses.

Thelemites will tell you that the sexual excesses were necessary to practice "Sex Magick" and the drugs were used to "free crowley's mind". Drugs, no matter how much people like them, end up affecting one's mind and judgement. An esoterist needs a functional mind, not one under the effect of illicit substances.

Thelemites will also tell you that Crowley dominated the Enochian and other High Magic rituals and the Qaballah, which is tottaly contraditory because such rituals require large periods of time for purification ( That means sexual abstinence, no food, no drink, etc ), and if not performed exactly like they should end up hurting the performer badly.

[UrbnTbone]

quote:Originally posted by Ze:

Hm so your trying to say that it's a men's nature to get so deeply involved with magic that they forget about their own masculinity right? Well

1- That's really contradictory because you'r saying that a male carachteristic can "erase" the masculinity of a man.

2- And if things were like that every man that was deepply involved in something would be a homosexual or an efeminate.

Not that specific. It's a masculine trait to try and conquer even at the risk of one's life(as in wars, etc...).

Since the great work requires an integration of feminine nature as part of the androgyne realisation, a man could be so committed at that necessary step, that he would lose his original nature in the process.

Or, a man drawn to such a process would have to be less specifically masculine to start with, that is, smarter and more sensitive.

Or, anything else that would explain why that happens, without necessarily giving women the monopoly in witchcraft.

But again, they usually have it anyway, besides exceptions that can integrate the androgyna and yet stay real males, or rather become even stronger and resolutely masculine by doing so. I'm not stating that usually males are closer to the fool/hanged man (genius without anchor) than to the emperor/hierophant but close to that.

If you got me wrong this time, forget it.

Anyway I don't know, simple living is the best.~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The system that I was born into, that is, my strongest anchor. An other kind of kabalah reference. That's why I can't stand Papus' allocations. I'm into TOL as in ToraOfLife b4 anything kabalistic. That makes the whole picture different and practically incompatible. But I do respect. And I know there is more practical insight in your magical side, but I'm attached to my tree.

Cheers

[This message has been edited by UrbnTbone (edited 07-20-2003).]

Well i am not even pagan but i have read the wiccan code. i found it to be more of a moral code that should be followed by everyone, but the world isnt as perfect as i wish it to be. I have studied many religions, i do it to see there side of the world, im mostly considered an atheist by people bt i dont believe in a creator being. but i like to study how other peopl ebelieve there is one. hypocritical yes but its interesting, almos tall the religions have a certain set of morals underlying them all, and as time progressed they became what they are now. The same goes for wicca it wasnt always this way, and harry potter hasnt helped, but if you find the ones hwo truly believe then your seeing a spectacle. not saying there arent many, but it is mostly laot of those solitary witches some are very serious, well most that i know are anyways. and i think its alright in some cases, but most of these children are simply just posing and such, i guess you cant get away from that stuff in our society these days.

I have studied the Wiccan religion for a few years, and have yet to make the choice to become a witch. It is a decision that will change your life, and is not to be taken lightly. Most of the "witches" you described where people following a trend, just like every other thing has (or will be) been (Christianity, Buddhism, etc...).

[Kakkaraun]

I agree 100%. These moronic teen poseurs...they make me want to hurt things.

[Ze]

Moral code that should be followed by all?

Wicca's moral is very much like the thelema's moral : " Do what you want as long as it doesn't harm others "

This might might be slightly appropriate for the common person, but an esoterist can't follow that moral.

Oh and a religion / cult / system / whatever wicca is/which "Serious" followers have such a need to "hurt things" because they feel

some young kids are deturpating it can't be very good.

[UrbnTbone]

quote:Originally posted by Ze:

Drugs, no matter how much people like them, end up affecting one's mind and judgement. An esoterist needs a functional mind, not one under the effect of illicit substances.

I was told by oto-ers that you have to make a vow of abstinence from drugs as a condition to join.

It worries me that I see so many young people eagerly searching for religion period. I think the search for religion has little to do with a need for spirituality. The need to be a part of something really doesn't last very long past the teen years, while the need for spiritual wholeness lasts a life time.

There is nothing wrong with the religion of wicca although it seems that, to be a true wiccan, you spend a hell of a lot of time reading and struggling to figure out what to do first.

The most disturbing part of this "fad" to me is the misunderstanding about magick. Magick is NOT supernatural at all. It is the very most natural thing in the world. It comes in many forms, some so subtle that we may not even notice. Magick is simply directing ones energy to cause a needed change. This could be interpreted as the energy directed toward cracking and scrambling an egg to provide needed food, or healing a burn wound via visualization. I'm pretty sure that turning someone into a toad is not considered needed change by any definition of the universe.

My only hope is that once these kids realize that magick has nothing to with neither the Harry Potter or The Craft movies they still hold on to some of the finer points they have read in their study of wicca...It's all about balance and knowing yourself and being the best you can be.

Blessings!

quote:Originally posted by YoungGunz117:

My problem with many "Witches" is that they are pre-tenn or teen assholes who go to their library after reading Harry Potter and see a book called "Love Spells" or "Book of Spells to make you rich". They think all witchcraft is is lighting a bunch of candles and saying stuff they don't understand. I recall a girl who when i was in school who had a book call "100 Love Spells for a Teenage witch" even though i do not practice witchcraft nor do i worship Wiccan gods/godesses, i find these people to be a disgrace to a fine religion which has been around for a long, long time. I was also at the book store and there was a 12 year old kid, he probably just finished the new Harry Potter book and he sees a shiny book called 'Book of Spells' and he just starts reading, not expecting anything except how to make a wand and say words to make a girl like him. I am not saying ALL witches/practitioners of Wicca are like this, but i just hate little kids who do the things i stated. What do real Wiccans/Pagans/Neo-Pagans/Witches think about these people?

Hmm, I think you're a bit misguided here my freind. You don't HAVE to be of ANY relegion to do magic. So thses kids probably aren't pagans ect. So what if they read harry potter and wanted to do magic, they have to get some exposure to it somehow. However they might be disappointed when they figure out it's for the most part not that flashy(I don't stress for the most part to heavily though). Another thing, I doubt it would work for most people who just picked up a book and tried to do something of that sort.

As for the fine relegion part. Like I said you don't need to be of any relegion, so I don't see how they're disgracing anything. For the most part you're not wiccan intill you're initated either, in some circles atleast. There's nothing wrong with books of that sort, well sorta. Just have to be careful that the stuff in there is legit, and true. Maybe you should do some more study into the area yourself.

http:../../www.whywiccanssuck.com/default.htm

Funny shit that's actually backed up with facts.

[MrMojoRisin]

I'm not Wiccan, per se, but alot of my beliefs stem from what I've learned over the years. Yes, I was once a little 10 year old who wanted to do magik and tarot. When I was in 4th grade I found my dad's Occult book and it got my curiousity. I started reading about Wicca and stuff. It helped me learn and grow. I often went to the metaphysical shop near my house and there's a Reiki(sp?) master there that owns it. She kind of helped me mature in my understanding of the religion.

I was baptised Catholic but have adopted my own 'relgion'. IMO spiritualty should be the goal and the religion is the tool to help. It doesn't bother me when little girls walk around with a pentegram around their neck. Everyone learns some way. Sure it might be a phase and she might be a poser but there are the few that'll it'll help enlighten, like me.

As far as Harry Potter influencing kids to do magic.. so what? It's a fantasy book. You're telling me that after you watched Peter Pan you didn't try to fly? I did, little kids are entranced by the supernatural, like flying and telekinesis, "magic". Let them read their Love Spell books and do their seances. They don't do it to undermine a religion, they just don't understand what's behind it. Maybe by lighting their candles and crystal gazing they'll learn.

It's better to do that than be completely intolerant. When you tell someone you're a witch they kind of roll their eyes..

Thanks for saying all this. Witchcraft is being made into a joke now. It's really disrespectful of a religion and power that has been around for thousands of years. But at least now people arn't burning and tourchering witches for their practise and belief. That's something.

[VeneFrigus]

quote:. It's really disrespectful of a religion and power that has been around for thousands of years.

Statements like that are why we're sure it's a joke.

ALL OF YOU STUPID FUCKS BELIEVE IN WITCHES GOD YOU FUCKED UP! SOMETHING TELLS ME SOMEONES PARENTS ARE/DID SEXUALLY "TOUCH" YOU IN YOU R SPECIAL PLACES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ze]

quote:Originally posted by izza:

It worries me that I see so many young people eagerly searching for religion period. I think the search for religion has little to do with a need for spirituality. The need to be a part of something really doesn't last very long past the teen years, while the need for spiritual wholeness lasts a life time.

There is nothing wrong with the religion of wicca although it seems that, to be a true wiccan, you spend a hell of a lot of time reading and struggling to figure out what to do first.

The most disturbing part of this "fad" to me is the misunderstanding about magick. Magick is NOT supernatural at all. It is the very most natural thing in the world. It comes in many forms, some so subtle that we may not even notice. Magick is simply directing ones energy to cause a needed change. This could be interpreted as the energy directed toward cracking and scrambling an egg to provide needed food, or healing a burn wound via visualization. I'm pretty sure that turning someone into a toad is not considered needed change by any definition of the universe.

My only hope is that once these kids realize that magick has nothing to with neither the Harry Potter or The Craft movies they still hold on to some of the finer points they have read in their study of wicca...It's all about balance and knowing yourself and being the best you can be.

Blessings!

You know nothing about what you are talking about. Go educate yourself. You talk like a hippy. Magic isn't " inside the chants of the birds, in the sky, in the flowers etc ". I'm sorry if I'm harsh but it's the truth.



Urbnthone - I don't know about that, I'll ask around. I don't think that makes them more serious tough