Back in the mid to late 80's I spent some timing living rough in Hamburg. Its where I first started to dip a tentative toe into and then paddle like a puppy in the 'warm waters of the Sins of The Flesh' (+100 for me for slipping in a RHPS quote)!

I used to drink most days in a inner city bar which was a 'in' place for martial artists (I was training under the now legendary Ralf Schmoll at the time).

Back then the only German I really knew was 'ficken' and 'bier'-the two most important words in any language I guess. So I tended to drink with the people who spoke English.

One of my drinking mates was an old guy, must have been 70.

He was a tall sinewy man, and had an air about him that kept the trouble makers away from him.

Anyway I got to know him a bit and it turned out 'Zvi' (not his real name, neither Israeli or German)was a Jew who had survived the death camps as a young man and had gone to Eretz Israel on being liberated. There he had risen to be a major in the paratroops and was now retired.Which basically means he fought in some of the bloodiest nastiest wars of the last century and had no doubt killed more people than he could care to remember.

Before anyone cries 'bs'. Over the years i have met countless 'my life in the SAS' type type pseudo hardmen in bars and also the real deal (I used to work with a lot of Ex special forces guys).

Infact if I remember rightly he and i first got talking because he'd seen my hand drift down to my boot during an argument with someone and he had torn me a new one for carrying a weapon in a 'friendly' bar.

This was one old fart you didn't want to try mugging.

Then one night , buoyed up with dutch courage, I asked him why the fuck he had come back to the country, nay the town, that had treated him so inhumanely as a kid.

He gave me that look that old soldiers probably reserve for such teenage drunken mouthy 'wannabe tough guys' gits like I was. Then he said simply 'I have come to find my wife and kill her'.

I know he married in Israel and had a son, who was an adult.

But he had never spoken of his wife before and he refused to elaborate on why he should want to kill her.

Men kill their wives for several reasons but none of them seem to fit in my mind.

And from the way he said it 3 things were clear to me; 1. it was personal(ie not just because he wanted to cash in her life insurance) and 2. She was dead, no ifs or buts. If he found her then she was dead and 3.He hated her when he had once loved her.

I can't imagine him being the kind of guy who would have hunted her down if she had simply emptied his bank account, shot his dog and run off with a younger lover. And obviously it wasn't because of some custody issue with the kid.

I also don't think it was just because he wanted to take a younger more nubile wife. Infact I know it wasn't (I'll recount my other Zvi story maybe later).

Anyway a few days after I had to leave Hamburg to go do something in southern Germany and I didn't return to that bar for about a year.

When I enquired about Zvi I was met with the expected wall of silence and all I could find out was that he left never to be seen again a few days I had.

I didn't enquire any further, and my German wasn't good enough to wade through the back papers of the local rag in the 'morgue'.

But over the years the incident has always troubled me.

What could his wife have done, what 'crime' had she committed, to turn his love into such murderous hate?



There is a slight postscript to this anecdote.



Normally I'm about as psychic as a housebrick wrapped in lead foil. But years later I had a sudden 'premonition', an overwhelming feeling, that Zvi was dead and so I went to the synagogue and said kaddisch for his soul. Very 'Odessa Files' I know but it somehow felt the right thing to do.

So S&A, what could a wife , with whom he had sired a son, have done that would cause her to flee the country and 2. get herself 'deaded'?



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 02-20-2007).]

Maybe she lied to him, and their son was actually from some other guy. Or she cheated on him, betrayed him,...

If he wanted her dead, there must have been a damn good reason for it. Unless he was crazy ofcourse.

she most likely betrayed him for someone he hated or for someone that probably wanted him dead. shit she probably tried to kill him

quote:Originally posted by Father Time:

Unless he was crazy ofcourse.

With former special forces soldiers always a distinct possibility...they do tend to be either insane, alcoholics or both.

(even my liver can't take drinking with former FFL men!).

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 02-20-2007).]

I imagine some form of betrayal, and given the personality of the guy from you're story, probably with someone he hated, possibly maliciously, and possibly a betrayal of th sort that would involve him comming to harm. I think some manipulation might be in it too.

But yeah... something harsh, no doubt.

quote:Originally posted by Punisher1012:

shit she probably tried to kill him

Again possible i suppose...Israeli girls being 1.combat trained and 2.forthright.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



Normally I'm about as psychic as a housebrick wrapped in lead foil.

Poppycock. I find you to be quite psychic. It's a part of your empathetic nature.

quote:Originally posted by oc6:

Poppycock. I find you to be quite psychic. It's a part of your empathetic nature.



Nah thats just my infamous irresistible charm.

Oh and +100 to oc6 for actually using the word 'poppycock'...

by gads, what a filly!

Maybe she betrayed him by telling the Nazis he was a Jew?

Perhaps she had slept with Nazis in order to get out of Europe years and years earlier, and at some point in her old age, she had revealed this to him, and then fled.

I guess he'd be tracking her down...

Many guys of that sort, that I've met, consider simply leaving reason enough.

They tend to enter into verbal contracts that they take more seriously than any marriage vows.

There's no explaining the connection between heart and head when it comes to being that level of a tough.

Wow. This is very interesting. What would drive someone, who probably understands better than anyone the value of life, to want to not only hate but to murder?

I'm kinda young and female, so the very WORSE thing I can think anyone can do to me is threaten the lives of my family. I mean it seems like someone who was in a death camp and has seen so much war and death would know to let pretty much anything go that didn't matter.

Wanting to kill her for breaking his heart or cheating seems, well, vain. When you are that old, you tend to understand later on why people made choices that may have hurt you but it wasn't personal.

So all I can think of is that his wife some how cost the lives of his family or someone equally as close. Because being a theiving slut isnt' really worth killing over. Or am I being too naive about that?

By the way...all of this would make an incredible story to read one day. For some odd reason I have been reading a lot about Israel and Jewish history and this has grabbed by interest by the face.

Maybe she was a pain in the ass?

I know I'm still searching for an ex who took off with my most prized Ray Bradbury compilation.



My god he will die by my hands, and out of everything he has done in his life, he will regret stealing from me the most.



Maybe the wife not only cleaned out the bank, but took the guys car or something?

When love is obliterated, a fixation upon silly materialistic things can arrise.

The speculation is far more exciting than actually knowing.

I bet the real reason is disappointing and a little dull.

Jx

She probably crossed a deeply personal line, more dear to him than (losing) money, (dead) dog, or her infidelity.

Maybe she used his past in the camps against him and said the wrong thing. Or maybe questioned his commitment towards his missions of past...

Who knows?

That's some pretty funky shit, man.

From a psychological standpoint, it's like this guy's a coin.

As you will no doubt know, ex-forces guys are pretty fuckin' hard...Broken in basic and rebuilt to be a soldier.

Over the years of being a rebuilt soldier, emotions seem to be backburner type stuff while they're stuck in the thick of things. Especially blood and guts regiments (Green Jackets, Paras, SAS, etc, etc)

Israeli SFs are some nasty bastards aswell.

Back to the coin theory...On one side you've got someone who can control emotions and get through anything to complete an objective.

On the other you've got a person who has been treated like shit from childhood, liberated but left with the memories then taken under the wing of a military force and trained to be a killer.

Emotions and memories are strong things expecially when the glass has to overfill.

I don't know what could have tipped Zvi's scale to murder but bet your boots it was pretty serious.

For someone with that physical and mental conditioning to let emotions take hold and want to do something counterproductive...Well...Woah.

That's just my ideas though. She probably just closed the door of his Toyota with her foot.

I bet you it had to do with his son. Maybe the son died and he blamed her? Im guessing like most people it would have to be something pretty deep cutting for him to TRACK her down to another country. I mean it could be that he just lost his mind and shes really the victim who knows. Im doubting its that she turned him into the nazi's because he was a young boy then I doubt he would grow up to marry her if she had turned him in. Idk that sucks though that its such a mystery at least you get to have mystery in your life.

I still don't get it.

When my Ex kept my teddy bear hostage for almost three years, I still didn't feel the need to take a plane to Belgium and gun her down.

Yes keeping a man's teddy, a gajee's childhood friend, his 'Bobby bear' is indeed a heinous crime but still...

Maybe I'm a nicer man than Zvi was?

I think you might be onto something Jack, what if instead of teddy bear we put Zvi's child? Say said wife took the beloved son? Because I know to me the one thing that I want in this world more then anything before I die is a son to call my own. So I could see why if she took the son from him he might want to track her down and kill her if she kept him from him or something.

quote:Originally posted by AprenticeChemistBITCHS:

I think you might be onto something Jack, what if instead of teddy bear we put Zvi's child? Say said wife took the beloved son? Because I know to me the one thing that I want in this world more then anything before I die is a son to call my own. So I could see why if she took the son from him he might want to track her down and kill her if she kept him from him or something.

Uhm I kinda doubt it as his son was married and , I think, also in the army himself.

But yes, that is one of the things that could lead a man to kill.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

I still don't get it.

When my Ex kept my teddy bear hostage for almost three years, I still didn't feel the need to take a plane to Belgium and gun her down.

Yes keeping a man's teddy, a gajee's childhood friend, his 'Bobby bear' is indeed a heinous crime but still...

Maybe I'm a nicer man than Zvi was?

Mebbe she did take his teddy?

Maybe something as simple as an affair.

Maybe she eloped with someone.

Maybe he was abusive, I hear abusive spouses can get obsessive if their partners leave.

Maybe a combination of the above. His history doesn't really sound like a recipe for great mental health. Could easily be a factor.

Jx

quote:Originally posted by Jessic:

His history doesn't really sound like a recipe for great mental health.

Seeing as he was Jewish, I'd say his wife probably stole 2DM from him.

[This message has been edited by rabbitweed (edited 02-21-2007).]

I've been around those types. I think he just said some weird shit to you. I also don't think if he was truly going to do that that he would have told you the way he did in a public bar.

I think you're making too much out of the ramblings of an old man who's not quite all there.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

Seeing as he was Jewish, I'd say his wife probably stole 2DM from him.



HAhaha thats funny as hell.

And lordjohnson the guys Old, the guys probably slightly crazy, he probably doesn't care who knows. If he kills the wife he probably wasn't caring about jail all he cared about was her death so I doubt he worried if hed be suspected. Plus he could have figured whos going to actually pay attention and belive him so why hide it?

As always, if I don't know the answer..

I ask the Godfather. And he just told me that she had an abortion, and basically killed one of his sons. That is the one thing he can never forgive her.

So yeah, what I'm basically saying is that it's probably some weird moral thing, that normally wouldn't be a recipe for death, but given his history.

Could have been an abortion though.

[This message has been edited by Aseren (edited 02-21-2007).]