When does a male cross over from adolescence and becomes a man? Is it based on age? Demeanour? Physical development? Having left home and being independent?

According to Richard Pryor, it happens when your heart gets broken for the first time.

Wise man.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

When does a male cross over from adolescence and becomes a man? Is it based on age? Demeanour? Physical development? Having left home and being independent?

Shit man, imo it can be influenced by all those things.

When you slay a lion and satisfy a dozen virgins in a single night.

quote:Originally posted by XHippie HunterX:

When you slay a lion and satisfy a dozen virgins in a single night.

I hit a fly with a cellphone user manual and had a wank. Does that count?

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

I hit a fly with a cellphone user manual and had a wank. Does that count?

Close enough. I now declare you a man!

When you realise that you've been victimising yourself because you're hiding, and you move to stop it.

quote:Originally posted by fullcircle:

it happens when your heart gets broken for the first time.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:

When you realise that you've been victimising yourself because you're hiding, and you move to stop it.

Could you expand on that please?

------------------------------------------

My flat mate is 26. He has a huge student loan, no job, and lives in a flat with 4 other people. He also has a 5 year old son that he says on weekends who he can't discipline properly, a quiet voice, and he sniffs alot. When his friends come around, they play computer games in his room.

Is he a man?

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

Could you expand on that please?

...

Is he a man?

Everybody has duties, though it's easier to ignore them.

Becoming a man is about owning up to them, the first moment you really look at yourself, say 'Shit, I'm a little whiner' and resolve to change.

I don't want to judge anyone, but your flat mate sounds like he needs to pull his finger out of his arse before he fucks up his boy's life.

Finding the ability to accept the things that one cannot change, yet still productively move forward in life.

quote:Originally posted by Euda:

Finding the ability to accept the things that one cannot change, yet still productively move forward in life.

Whoa whoa whoa! Everything in life is changable, some just tougher than others. Its a matter of actually doing it.

For example: In the attempt to redefine swinging for the fence, my life goal is simple:

I seek to build a perfect world.

I am not happy right now. It's a rare state.

Though another solid arguement for manhood is when you go for 2 months without seeing a woman or wanking it without breaking down.

It sucks.

Simple, it's whats left after the storm.

quote:Originally posted by Euda:

Finding the ability to accept the things that one cannot change, yet still productively move forward in life.

Does that mean I'm a man? :P

Don't you think that one is in a continual state of "becoming"?

Well...maybe by age 60?

Sounds to me like your friend is in a state of becoming a man who is a bum.

quote:Originally posted by oc6:

Does that mean I'm a man? :P



Darling, you are SO far from being a man ! Can't imagine anyone more NON-man than you

quote:Originally posted by oc6:

Does that mean I'm a man?

Don't you think that one is in a continual state of "becoming"?

I decided to grasp for an answer, I think there are five year olds more mature than some 'men'.

You don't qualify for man status. Happy Valentine's Day Grandma. I wish you a day of fuzzy slippers.

quote:Originally posted by Euda:

I decided to grasp for an answer, I think there are five year olds more mature than some 'men'.

You don't qualify for man status. Happy Valentine's Day Grandma. I wish you a day of fuzzy slippers.



You're first to wish me a Happy Valentine's day. Thanks. A happy one to you too.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

Darling, you are SO far from being a man ! Can't imagine anyone more NON-man than you



I'm a womb-man. :P

I think it can happen at any age,it happens when you stand up and take resposibility for your actions.When you realize that you are in control of your destination. You no longer lean on your parents or an older sibling to bail you out. It could be 13 or 30 years old .

Here is the exact quote from Richard Pryor's autobiography, I originally posted this on totse for Garfunkel - speaking of which, what happened to his black ass?



quote:Heartache is like an education for a man. We don't really grow up until a woman breaks your fucking heart. That's your diploma. If you come through that, Jack, you're a man.

I don't agree with the heart broke senerio. It sounds nice on valentines day and all but it's not true. I know several guys that married childhood sweethearts never went through the dating thing never had a chance to have their hearts broke and they have been stand up men for a long time. They became men when the moved out started looking after themselves and their dependens

It's probably different for everybody.

I just know for a fact that I stopped being a boy when I had my heart truly broken.

Yes I agree,everyone is unique and having your heart broke could be that defining moment when things change

The moment you first cum.

quote:Originally posted by Drefetr:

The moment you first cum.

Ah...the wisdom of a child.

You're a man when you're able to think for yourself and handle the consequences of your actions.

quote:Originally posted by Blue_Yonder:

You're a man when you're able to think for yourself and handle the consequences of your actions.



Having disqualified 99.9% of humanity...

When you take responsibility for your actions and you can take care of yourself.

quote:Originally posted by 2020:

Yes I agree,everyone is unique and having your heart broke could be that defining moment when things change

i aggree but i think there is more to it than jut that. i think manhood comes from not only being able to do what is right, but to be able to sacrafice yourself in order to help others. children arent/cant be selfless. when you get to the point in your life where you can put others in front of yourself i think manhood is achieved.

RIP

Mr. PRYOR

I agree that you become a man once you've gone through a broken heart and you keep moving forward. Also, being independent and accepting your responsiblities.

I just live by the saying 'What doesnt kill you makes you stronger' Its gotten me through alot.

quote:Originally posted by shrek45:

i aggree but i think there is more to it than jut that. i think manhood comes from not only being able to do what is right, but to be able to sacrafice yourself in order to help others. children arent/cant be selfless. when you get to the point in your life where you can put others in front of yourself i think manhood is achieved.

RIP

Mr. PRYOR



I like that, totally agree.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:

Everybody has duties, though it's easier to ignore them.

Becoming a man is about owning up to them

QFT

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too,

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,

If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much,

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

^ I thought those were song lyrics til I realised it's Kipling.

+1

I think you're classed as a 'grown up' when pigging out on eating 5 cookies for breakfast stops being the end of the world.

When physical development is mostly or completely done.

What makes a man, is it the woman in his arms, just cus she has big titties? Or is it the way, he fights everyday? NO its probably the titties. NOW YOUR MAN, M-A-N MAN YOUR A MAN. Now your a man.

Well, I'm 19, supporting myself, have been out of the house for two years, and been through heartache. I cook, clean, and wash my own dishes, cook my own meals, etc.

I don't know if any of you recall my "rabbitweed attempts to be assertive thread", but I have a feeling that that should come easily to a man. So I am working on that. (I can easily lose my temper and snap at people, but I don't consider that manly.)

Now, I don't ask for it at all...but I am pretty poor, and my dad occasionally sends me money. It's pretty hard to refuse. He may also be inviting me to Ireland this year on him, and that would be awesome so I don't want to refuse that.

In a way I almost think he likes sending me money so I remain slightly subordinate to him. He started bossing me around once, from the other side of the world, and I told him to get fucked once that he could keep his money. After that we made up, and he started sending it again.

I plan to start my career next year, so I think after the trip there (if it happens) I will be financially independent from him from then on.

When he goes through Marine recruit training, he is a man. Or at least, he will be able to kick ass.

Either way, I'm only 1.5 years away from being a man/violent asshole, etc. whatever sticks.

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

When he goes through Marine recruit training, he is a man. Or at least, he will be able to kick ass.

Either way, I'm only 1.5 years away from being a man/violent asshole, etc. whatever sticks.

Doesn't joining the military make you someones bitch 24/7?

Is that manly?

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

Doesn't joining the military make you someones bitch 24/7?

Is that manly?

Yeah, because once you're out, you're far better than than the man who didn't go through it.

On average.

After your first safari.

No brainer. xD

The Kipling poem came to mind for me too. I'd say that it makes you a good man, rather than simply a man.

rabbitweed, taking your Dad up on his offer does not make you less of a man. Realizing that such an offer can help you is a positive thing.

[This message has been edited by Euda (edited 02-15-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Solidus:

After your first safari.

No brainer. xD

This is true. You had better be able to secure a golf kart and some pith helmets. I'm counting on you.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Yeah, because once you're out, you're far better than than the man who didn't go through it.

On average.

I suppose you may be more disciplined, more experienced and financially better off..

You may also be more traumatised, more full of bullshit (people get desperate and actually start to cling onto the lies the military tells you), and your physical fitness may be worse (check the Army thread in bitch & moan, several people claim to have become less fit due to the Armies hamfisted training approach)...not withstanding wounds and death.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

Doesn't joining the military make you someones bitch 24/7?

Is that manly?

If you consider honoring your word and being loyal to those you have sworn alliegance manly then the military is the epitome of manliness and chivalry.

I choose to serve the military and I serve faithfully and dilligently, even upon pain of death. How is this in any way unmanly?

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

You may also be more traumatised, more full of bullshit...

If you are a weak willed individual who joins for the wrong reasons this is likely to happen. Then again, those that join for the wrong reasons rarely become true men anyways.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

...and your physical fitness may be worse (check the Army thread in bitch & moan, several people claim to have become less fit due to the Armies hamfisted training approach)...

The Marines especially stress the importance of life long physical fitness. Anyone who becomes less fit is simply weak willed and didn't utilize their training to the best of their abilities.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

...not withstanding wounds and death.

This is the truly manly part. How many cowardly boys are willing to volunteer for a cause and faithfully and dilligently serve the military even upon pain of death or serious injury?

I think:

one: you cant be a burden to people.

two: you must have your own thought out philosophy grounded in positive and logical societal values.

three: you have to at the very least have a respect for women, and see their worth as beings. This goes for both gays and people who think women are just objects (tho I'm guilty of the latter much). Basically I think a man has to uphold the women that deserve it and recognize who they are as well.

four: you must then be able to father a child, and raise them strong.

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

If you consider honoring your word and being loyal to those you have sworn alliegance manly then the military is the epitome of manliness and chivalry.

I choose to serve the military and I serve faithfully and dilligently, even upon pain of death. How is this in any way unmanly?

You also choose to make yourself one of the most subservient sections of the population.

You talk of honouring your word and being loyal. This is all well and good...but why are you fighting in the first place? (I am assuming you're American)

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

If you are a weak willed individual who joins for the wrong reasons this is likely to happen. Then again, those that join for the wrong reasons rarely become true men anyways.

Surely close combat, seeing your friends die, or being tortured would have a huge effect on even the most hardcore mo'fo. These are worst case scenarios yes but I am just saying there is a risk of that happening.

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

The Marines especially stress the importance of life long physical fitness. Anyone who becomes less fit is simply weak willed and didn't utilize their training to the best of their abilities.

I'm just going from what I've been told by US soldiers. The same exercise routine for everyone, and not much importantance is given to how effective it is, as long as it hurts...

What are your experiences with PT? I am curious to know if he just had poor NCO's or if it's a common occurence (if it hurts, it must be good...even though it's not making you fitter).

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

This is the truly manly part. How many cowardly boys are willing to volunteer for a cause and faithfully and dilligently serve the military even upon pain of death or serious injury?

It would depend on the cause, I think.

If my nation was being invaded I would join the military in a heartbeat, despite all I have said.

EDIT: If anyone else has something to say in regards to the above I will read it, but won't reply. I've said all about I have to say, and this thread has too narrow a scope to start discussing the military and politics, I just got a bit carried away

We need a military forum.

[This message has been edited by rabbitweed (edited 02-15-2007).]

FUCK being a man!

I wanna be a fucking cabbage

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

You also choose to make yourself one of the most subservient sections of the population.

Is chivalry not necessary for being a man? What do you think one of the main components of chivalry is? Being a faithful servant to those you are honor-bound to serve. In this case I am making the moral and personal choice of having the military be my commander, so honoring them is a sign of loyalty and dilligence.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

Surely close combat, seeing your friends die, or being tortured would have a huge effect on even the most hardcore mo'fo.

It is not what we see or what happens to us that shapes us, it is how we respond and deal with what life gives us. If there is no struggle, there is no man.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

I'm just going from what I've been told by US soldiers. The same exercise routine for everyone, and not much importantance is given to how effective it is, as long as it hurts...

What are your experiences with PT? I am curious to know if he just had poor NCO's or if it's a common occurence (if it hurts, it must be good...even though it's not making you fitter).

I've done PT with Marine recruiters, and I must say that I find it to be very tough, but at the same time very functional and useful too. It surely builds strength and endurance the things they have you do, so I really don't know what those other guys are saying. Maybe the Army does things differently?

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

It would depend on the cause, I think.

If my nation was being invaded I would join the military in a heartbeat, despite all I have said.B]

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

[B]You talk of honouring your word and being loyal. This is all well and good...but why are you fighting in the first place? (I am assuming you're American)

It all depends on your personal belief and convictions. I am primarily joining to serve my country, and to build personal strength and character while at the same time earn money for college so I can get an even more difficult job serving my country(my ultimate career path is to do federal law enforcement).

Also, I would like to be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan if possible, as I believe that both are just wars that need good men like me on the ground making a difference. Yes, I personally believe that, and please no one try to change my mind or argue with me, these are my personal beliefs and I believe it is my duty to make the best of a bad situation.

But yeah, I do respect you. I just find your seemingly anti-military views disheartening...

quote:Originally posted by oc6:



I'm a womb-man. :P





I like to think of you more as a woah-man.

quote:Originally posted by XHippie HunterX:

When you slay a lion and satisfy a dozen virgins in a single night.



QFT!

This is what happens when we lose our community rituals for the declaration of social status. We end up thinking our prom date dumping us is the gateway to manhood. Next you will be saying your disapointment with a new video game or bad customer service with your cell phone provider is what maketh a man.

quote:Originally posted by specus_meretricis:

This is what happens when we lose our community rituals for the declaration of social status. We end up thinking our prom date dumping us is the gateway to manhood. Next you will be saying your disapointment with a new video game or bad customer service with your cell phone provider is what maketh a man.

What should do it then, in your opinion?

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

What should do it then, in your opinion?

Fuckin' A man. Totse is a great place to do some bitching...if you at least got a half decent alternative!

quote:Is chivalry not necessary for being a man? What do you think one of the main components of chivalry is? Being a faithful servant to those you are honor-bound to serve. In this case I am making the moral and personal choice of having the military be my commander, so honoring them is a sign of loyalty and dilligence.

Chivalry is all fine and good, but you don't have to be honer bound to any organization to be chivalrous. You can also be loyal to your ideals and uphold them on your own without weaver. In my own opinion you'll likely be a bigger man still by not submitting yourself to the will and possible incompetence of those who just may end up being your ideological enemies. A true man (IMO) should be guided by his thoughts his own logic not those of other men. I find the US military seemingly constraining in those regards. The goal of a man should not be to become a chivalrous blind pawn, but a wise strong man who sees the world for what it is, and makes moves for what it should be. Iraq is a tough subject for me because yeah I have to admit part of me wants to be there for the other decent minded young men who are going through hell.. I am not motivated by our handling of this conflict at all however and I wouldn't put myself in harms way for something I cant control any part of.

Also fuck yeah (IMO) losses don't make you a man its what you learn from losses and what you learn without losses by observing and inferring. You don't have to lose shit to be wise the wisest men don't lose often and that should also be the goal of a man, wisdom.

Also yeah I think a man has to be able to defend himself both physically and mentally in order to be worthy of esteem.

Seems to me its a tough job to really be somebody worthwhile. I'm gonna give it a shot but I'm talkin out my ass right now cuz I'm pretty much bum status.

quote:Originally posted by thendoftheline:

You can also be loyal to your ideals and uphold them on your own without weaver.

My greatest ideals happen to be patriotism and a feeling I am serving my country. Both of these I feel are best expressed through the military, at least for me(shit, if I was a savant I would consider inventing a cure for cancer patriotic too, but I'm not).

quote:Originally posted by thendoftheline:

A true man (IMO) should be guided by his thoughts his own logic not those of other men. I find the US military seemingly constraining in those regards.

I don't see myself as experienced enough to be a true man. That is partly why I want to join the military, for the experience and strength I will need to make it through life with an even greater moral compass.

Well I gotta say I respect you for your decision and your reasons. I truly believe the experience of serving in the military can be very en richening. Sad thing is you may not survive. My uncle lost his life in Vietnam and he was highly honored by many people, Im sure many could have benefited from him still being around including myself.

Ive been thinking lately of joining the UN forces.. Sounds like you havnt joined the US military yet Id recommend you search out info on the UN I'm thinking there you may be able to at least choose your battles?.. Just a thought. Take care pal.

quote:Originally posted by rabbitweed:

What should do it then, in your opinion?

That is hard to say for several reasons, one of which is I am not a man. Another is that societies that do have a moment or day set aside to say "Yes, now you are a man" may a have a stronger sense of identity but that doesn't stop anyone from still being a total fuckwit.

In Northern American society, for the most part, we say "When you are 18." But you can still be living at home, going to school, and have zero responsibility. So just because you can vote, be drafted, or buy cigarettes that doesn't really make you a man.

If I was going to base "manhood" off of my social settings I would say: You are a man when you no longer live in the home of your parents or supporters and you are 100% responsible for your financial well being.

Which means that most males in my country do not come of age until they are almost into their 30s, according to me. Which, kinda doesn't work.

I don't see pain, emotinal or otherwise, as a indicator of adulthood. A five year old boy who's mother dies in front of him is not a man, nor is an eight year old that is getting a bone marrow transplant. It will have a huge effect on what kind of man he will become to suffer at such a young age, but it won't make him a capable adult. Niether will any of us that have gone through the disapointment of a break up. It sucks and it makes us either more compassionate or total cunts, but it doesn't give us a ticket into adulthood.

Once again, males are totally short changed. I know the day I became a "woman" when I saw those little pink flowers in the crotch of my panties. But you guys really don't get anything or anyone to say "Okay son, now you are a man and you no longer are treated as a child."

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

Fuckin' A man. Totse is a great place to do some bitching...if you at least got a half decent alternative!

I wasn't really bitching, I just wasn't agreeing that getting your heart broken makes you a man. It only means you had unrealistic expectations in someone that you probably shouldn't have had. And I can say a roof is leaking and still have no clue how to fix it.

All military workouts are retarded and harmful to your health. Besides them being gay, you will be pushed everyday to the point of muscle failure then way past that. The problem with this is everyday your muscles are breaking down more and more. You will get little rest and your muscles are constantly in a state of 'bad pain'. Safety isn't a factor in PT workouts. Tearing a muscle or seriously getting hurt is what nco's are aiming for. They will then tell you that you did good by hurting yourself. To them that is a real gain. Fuck that shit.

EXAMPLE: Marine DS suck my dick marine!

Marine Gladly sir!

[This message has been edited by 1baddude (edited 02-15-2007).]

I donno man besides that sucking dick shit.. seems maybe being consistently pushed beyond your limits will make you used to those conditions and allow you to greatly expand your threshold for survival in the field or just plain shitty situations. I think if taken that way you could grow mentally and physically beyond your perceived potential and increase the ease in which you grow from then on as well. I donno about that tho and I wouldn't really want to subject myself to it at this moment to test my hypothesis.. Seems tho that being used to an extreme can only benefit a soldier maybe even a man in general but like I said I don't know that just a thought.

1baddude, who do you want in a foxhole next to you? The guy that did the pussy training you would want the military to do, with a drill sergeant that acted like his personal trainer to ensure he could bench press x man more pounds, or run x distance farther?

Or do you want the guy who was constantly pushed to both his physical and psychological limits everyday, for months on end, to the point of breaking down, and then had to go further? The guy with the mental fortitude or the guy who lifted weights?

You're right, military training isn't about building better bodies. It is about building better and more resilient minds, and sorting out the rest that can't hack it. That is why the military doesn't give a damn how well you shoot when you join. Practically anyone can be trained to shoot a rifle, and shoot it really well given the proper amount of training. Same with raw strength.

However, the military needs both of these things in combat, but realizes that without the proper mental discipline both are useless. That is why SEAL training is designed to weed out the mentally weak. Same with all special operations training.

That is why minutemen, who could probably shoot and move a hell of a lot better than their British opposition, ran in droves. They had the skills for war, they just didn't have the military training to stand up to the horrors of war.

If you can keep your head when all about

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

And make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

or being lied about, dont deal in lies

Or being hated, dont give way to hating,

And yet dont look too good,nor talk too wise

If you can dream -and not make dreams your master;

If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with triumph and disaster

and treat these two impostors just the same;

IF you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools

Or watch the things you gave your life to broken

and stoop and build them up with worn out tools

If you could make one heap of all your winnings

and rist it on one turn of a pitch and toss,

and lose and start again at your beginnings

and never breath a word about your loss

if you can force your heart to nerve and sinew

to serve your turn long after they are gone

and so hold on when there is nothing in you

except the will which says to them

"hold on"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue

or walk with kings-nor lose the common touch

if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you

if all men count with you but none too much

if you can fill the unforgiving minute

with sixty seconds worth of distance run

yours is the earth and everthing that's in it

And--which is more --you'll be a man my son!

Yeah thats good shit. My aunt read that to me lately she holds that poem or whatever in pretty high regard..

quote:Originally posted by Byss:

1baddude, who do you want in a foxhole next to you? The guy that did the pussy training you would want the military to do, with a drill sergeant that acted like his personal trainer to ensure he could bench press x man more pounds, or run x distance farther?

Or do you want the guy who was constantly pushed to both his physical and psychological limits everyday, for months on end, to the point of breaking down, and then had to go further? The guy with the mental fortitude or the guy who lifted weights?

You're right, military training isn't about building better bodies. It is about building better and more resilient minds, and sorting out the rest that can't hack it. That is why the military doesn't give a damn how well you shoot when you join. Practically anyone can be trained to shoot a rifle, and shoot it really well given the proper amount of training. Same with raw strength.

However, the military needs both of these things in combat, but realizes that without the proper mental discipline both are useless. That is why SEAL training is designed to weed out the mentally weak. Same with all special operations training.

That is why minutemen, who could probably shoot and move a hell of a lot better than their British opposition, ran in droves. They had the skills for war, they just didn't have the military training to stand up to the horrors of war.

That is a good explination of what military PT is all about.