What is masturbation, what does it do for us and when it comes right down to it is it morally wrong? These days the general consensus seems to be that masturbation isn't wrong, and that it's something everyone does. But is that really the case? Of course it's something most people do, if not regularly, at some point in their lives. It's almost compulsive isn't it, but is this compulsion wrong? There's an undeniable urge in all of us that can never be satisified, only temporarily appeased, and each day it is born anew, screaming in the background to be fed. How do we feed these desires or alternatively, how do we keep them at bay? And is either course of action healthy? This is the dilemma, and it's a problem that's been bothering me for some time now.

First let's look at your normal everyday male or female, masturbating to images of an adult member of the opposite sex. Many people would consider this healthy, right? So then let's consider your not quite so normal everyday male or female, who enjoys masturbating to slightly more risque pictures, pictures of men and women of the opposite sex participating in degrading acts of submission and domination. Pictures of people tied up, being beaten, spanked, tortured, and raped, all staged of course. Is this normal? Why or why not? Taking this one step further, what about a man who masturbates to fantasies of copulation with a corpse? Or a woman who becomes weak in the knees at the thought of being pissed on? Or a man who masturbates to children dressed provocatively. Perhaps someone who is aroused by the thought of intercourse with animals? Or maybe a man who enjoys candid snapshots of teenagers on the toilet?

What I'm getting at, and the question that has been bothering me, is where does it end? Where is the line drawn, when does something go from being harmless to being evil? Our base urges, these primal instincts, are almost uncontrollable. If we don't find an outlet for them they threaten to consume us, or in many extreme cases to consume others through our frustration. Is it not better for someone to release these urges on their own, in private, rather than let them build up so they can manifest themselves negatively in other aspects of their life, oftentimes violently? Would you rather your neighbor jerk off to pictures of a corpse or would you rather having him fondling your freshly buried grandmother? Would you rather have your Aunt Claudia molesting your cousin Billy or fingering herself to images of naked schoolboys on the internet?

Of course the intial knee jerk reaction is that these people are sick, outcasts, and should be ostracized. If they are found out they should be cast aside at best, killed at worst. But what I'm starting to realize, and what I'm trying to come to terms with, is the fact there's a lot more people who are into these things then I realized. When I was a child I thought people who liked these things were hermits, monsters living in shacks in the woods. In reality these people are everywhere, in fact, these people are you and me. I've realized that to some extent we're all tainted, that we all get off on kinky things, some more extreme then others. Missionary in the dark carries no mystery, there is no taboo there. It doesn't get us off anymore, and as such we've begun searching for new alternatives, new ways to "keep it hard". No one is pure, we all carry dark desires inside of us. On some level we are all tainted, at least to some extent, and there is no escaping it, it's just a matter of how well we hide it. It's a fun little game we play isn't it? Hide your failings, hide your arousals, tuck it all away and hope no one finds out.

It seems to be in our nature, a man wants to dominate, to defile, to conquer. A woman wants to submit, to be defiled, to be an object. But somewhere along the way these lines got blurred. A myriad of fetishes cropped up, and within those fetishes were offshoots, and then offshoots of offshoots. First there were guys who liked legs, then guys who liked legs in stockings, then guys who liked feet, then guys who liked feet in heels, then guys who liked feet in patent leather shoes and white socks with frilly lace, etc., etc., you get the idea. Nowadays you don't just have someone who's aroused by children, you have someone who's aroused by children in specific attire, in a particular age group. You don't have someone who enjoys cartoon pornography, you have someone who likes cartoon pornography from a specific region drawn in a specific style, and then you have someone who only gets off to the bloody and violent form of that particular style.

Where does what arouses us become part of who we are as a person? Does someone who is aroused by these "unconventional" forms of erotica immediately become a danger to society, a social outcast fit only for the aforementioned solitary mountain retreat? Is masturbating to a picture of an 18 year old any worse than masturbating to a picture of a 14 year old? Both people are being exploited, perhaps to different extents, but the person masturbating plays no part in the material. They didn't create it, they just happened upon it and were aroused by it. If someone masturbates to a picture of a child being abused, do they become part of the crime? Is it their fault what is being portrayed happened? You could argue that if there wasn't a demand for such material then it wouldn't have happened, but is that really the case? What about someone who merely fantasizes about these things, who uses no objectionable material whatsoever, only the impure thoughts that run wild within their imagination? Is that a crime? If so, how do we police a thougt crime?

There's a variety of reasons why someone could be turned on by any one thing, and the mind is often times too complex to pinpoint any exact reason why someone turns to these fetishes. It could have to do with their upbringing, with their biology, or even with some childhood trauma. But is it wrong for people to try and relieve themselves, to do whatever it takes, without hurting someone else of course, to release these urges in the safest manner possible, in the privacy of their own home? If it is wrong, what can be done, what kind of punishment does someone deserve for simply being the way they are, for becoming the person they've become?

[This message has been edited by OpiateSeclorum868 (edited 11-27-2006).]

I think, you're thinking to hard about something that you're supposed to enjoy and not think about. If you become ill or obsessed with sex or addicted to porn, it's because of your own demons that reach FAR FAR beyond sex.

Any problems one might have sex nearly 99% of the time have nothing at all to do with sex and everything to do with their inner-demons forced onto them by parents, a traumatic experience, or maybe some learned behavior.

Thoughts that arouse someone... how the hell is that bad? That's not a choice. What turns people on is what turns them on. They might be called a "sexual deviant" but really, what stays in your own head, what you can control, is in and of itself NOT bad. What IS bad, is when you hurt someone else. That's when you cross the line. To me, everyone in the world can think of little kids be raped up the ass... and whatever. You're THINKING it, get off, clean up the cum, and go on with life. But when you infringe on someone else's well-being, I have a problem.

It's not "tainted". It's human nature. It's who we are. Why do think this is "bad" and "evil", "dark"?

I don't feel I need to hide. I'm not ashamed of my sex. I think it's beautiful. I think the kinky role playing games I play with my boyfriend are as beautiful as when we're trying to make a baby. I think all the dirty mind games we whisper are beautiful. No matter how raunchy we might get, the fact is, is we love each other, we're both fulfilling the other, we're both happy.

And that does help define me as a person as it does everyone else. Your sexuality it a HUGE facet of who you are and it transcends through all of your being in every other aspect of who you are.

People should not be punished for being who they are. They shouldn't be ridiculed for feeling a certain way. And you're right, there is a LOT more people who have these fantasies than you thought. In fact, I'd say way more than half have some sort of "unacceptable" sexual thoughts. But fuck what the public says. Why? Because they are the public, they're hypocrites. The same people who admonish are the ones who DO. There's a notion that it's bad, that you shouldn't do it, that no one does it, meanwhile everyone's to brainwashed to realized they're just kidding themselves.

Masturbating isn't bad. What you think about isn't bad. Portraying and pretending to be something you're not, is bad.

So power to the people who jack off to bestiality and fuck the people who judge them.

to sum it up:

just fap. don't think.

Not everyone needs to use fantasy or images, merely an appreciation of their own body and an enjoyment of it's responsiveness to their own touch.

I just thought I would add that to your list.

I read your entire post, but found that you reached conclusions I agree with throughout. It's not evil to masturbate to the thought of something others would consider sick; it's harming no-one, and if it helps the masturbater control his or her urges, then so much the better. It might entrench him or her farther in the fetish, and could be counter-productive if they want to stop becoming aroused by that subject... but again, that's not masturbation itself, it's the mindset of the masturbater. Masturbating to stuff like child pornography can be evil, but not because it's masturbation - because you'd be supporting people who exploit children. Masturbation itself is perfectly fine, normal, and healthy.





[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 11-27-2006).]

Okay, I didn't read everything you said, but here's what it comes down to: it depends on why and what you masturbate to.

quote:I read your entire post, but found that you reached conclusions I agree with throughout. It's not evil to masturbate to the thought of something others would consider sick; it's harming no-one, and if it helps the masturbater control his or her urges, then so much the better. It might entrench him or her farther in the fetish, and could be counter-productive if they want to stop becoming aroused by that subject... but again, that's not masturbation itself, it's the mindset of the masturbater. Masturbating to stuff like child pornography can be evil, but not because it's masturbation - because you'd be supporting people who exploit children. Masturbation itself is perfectly fine, normal, and healthy.



I disagree entirely. Masturbating to something evil only encourages it. Replacing one evil with a lesser evil is still evil. Just because it doesn't affect someone else in an outright manner doesn't mean its not evil.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 11-27-2006).]

Says who?

I believe in energy transference. In that sense, I can see where you *might* be coming from. If someone is staring at a picture of a child and is focused on that child being harmed, that energy is sent out into.. space/time/existence.

But "masturbating to something evil only encourages is" is totally off the tracks. That person is achieving satisfaction from something that is evil. That doesn't make THAT person evil. That person does not control what gets them off. I'm sorry, but something gets you off, its gets you off, there's no explanations or rationalizations. It's NATURE. And it's just as natural for someone to be turned on by "sick shit" as it is for you to be attracted to a woman.

People send out energy. What they think, feel, and do. Orgasm, no matter what the cause, is an orgasm. And THAT is the goal, not to hurt people. Therefore, that mindset is what's happening, the point is to have pleasure, to feel good. And from what I've absorbed from a myriad of different sources is that positive far outweighs negative energy.

First of all there is no such thing as good, evil, or being normal. People are who they are. There is no right certain way to be. If people like fucking corpses, or taking it in the ass by a fuckin pony thats their shit. I have nothing to do with that and don't want anything to do with that. The basis from which I determine right from wrong comes from one basic universal law that I firmly believe in:

RESPECT ME AND I SHALL RESPECT YOU, BUT KEEP IN MIND TO NEVER DO ANYTHING TO ME OR MY FAMILY/FRIENDS WITHOUT MY/THERE CONSENT FIRST. IF YOU GO AGAINST THAT LAW THAN YOU WILL BE DEALT WITH OR VICE VERSA.

I am guessing that you are religous because you obviously believe in good and evil. I also think your looking at this topic to much from the governments perspective of things. I believe that people act out of there own fears and fucked up life experiences just as Mr.mojorisin said. Some people just don't know any better or how to go about things in society. And I think persecuting some one for what they like is absurd. The only thing I have a problem with is child molestors. I think these people are seriously fucked up in the head to be attracted to children. But then again that's who they are. How do you force yourself or someone to not like something? As long as they don't thing break the rule I follow everythings cool with me. Oh yeah, fuck the government.

quote:Originally posted by MrMojoRisin:

Says who?

I believe in energy transference. In that sense, I can see where you *might* be coming from. If someone is staring at a picture of a child and is focused on that child being harmed, that energy is sent out into.. space/time/existence.

But "masturbating to something evil only encourages is" is totally off the tracks. That person is achieving satisfaction from something that is evil. That doesn't make THAT person evil. That person does not control what gets them off. I'm sorry, but something gets you off, its gets you off, there's no explanations or rationalizations. It's NATURE. And it's just as natural for someone to be turned on by "sick shit" as it is for you to be attracted to a woman.

People send out energy. What they think, feel, and do. Orgasm, no matter what the cause, is an orgasm. And THAT is the goal, not to hurt people. Therefore, that mindset is what's happening, the point is to have pleasure, to feel good. And from what I've absorbed from a myriad of different sources is that positive far outweighs negative energy.

I never said the person that has evil thoughts is evil, of course that isn't true. And no, it's not natural for someone to be turned on by "sick shit". You are not born with your fetishes, you develop them from psychological disturbances. I know I did, I know all my friends have, anyone I've had indepth sexual and psychological conversations have did, and I'm sure I could prove that's where yours(if you have them) developed from, too.

Truth of the matter is, you can change what gets you off. I did. You have to change yourself, and for the better. You have to come at peace with yourself and the world, and become a loving person.

Of course the positive outweighs the negative - there is no such thing as a negative. Anything seen as "negative" is merely the lack of a positive.

Everything has an explanation.

quote:First of all there is no such thing as good, evil, or being normal.



Yes there is.

quote:People are who they are



People are a collection of their past experiences and are constantly changing. You are not who you were 10 years ago, yet you are still the same person.

quote:There is no right certain way to be.



There is a right general way to be, though. And that way is loving.

quote:If people like fucking corpses, or taking it in the ass by a fuckin pony thats their shit.



Yes, and that shit is most likely wrong.

quote:The basis from which I determine right from wrong comes from one basic universal law that I firmly believe in:

RESPECT ME AND I SHALL RESPECT YOU, BUT KEEP IN MIND TO NEVER DO ANYTHING TO ME OR MY FAMILY/FRIENDS WITHOUT MY/THERE CONSENT FIRST. IF YOU GO AGAINST THAT LAW THAN YOU WILL BE DEALT WITH OR VICE VERSA.



You - an ignorant human - decide what is universally right or wrong? Laughable.

quote:I am guessing that you are religous because you obviously believe in good and evil.



Spiritual; dogma to me is like Narcan to someone on heroin. I used to be a nihilist.

quote: I also think your looking at this topic to much from the governments perspective of things.



I'm an anarchist.

quote:I believe that people act out of there own fears and fucked up life experiences just as Mr.mojorisin said.



Yes, and that's wrong.

quote:Some people just don't know any better or how to go about things in society.



So let's show them the truth.

quote:

And I think persecuting some one for what they like is absurd.



Persecuting is always wrong. When did I talk about persecuting?

quote:The only thing I have a problem with is child molestors. I think these people are seriously fucked up in the head to be attracted to children.



So you make special exceptions? Obviously your truth is not truly a universal truth then.

quote:How do you force yourself or someone to not like something?



It's very possible.

quote:Oh yeah, fuck the government.



That's one nasty fetish you have.

i believe that the worry that masturbating to abnormal images is a danger mostly comes from people who masturbate to these images themselves and somehow fear that they will deviate from what is acceptable in society not only in their thoughts, but in thier actions. in other words, the people who are the most adamant about masturbating to pedophilic images are the masturbators who fear they will become pedophiles.

not everyone is so afraid of "base" or "dark" urges. i would venture to say that most people out there are in control of their sexual urges enough to not do something "immoral." actually, most people really don't HAVE urges to masturbate to children or dead people. the ones who have those urges and deviate by fulfilling them to the detriment of others are separate from their benign counterparts who are able to confine their sexual "deviancy" to inside their heads. really, there is no need to police thought, nor do we have the ability to do so (thankfully).

in terms of the morality of constructing masturbatory images, as long the people used in the images are consenting and of appropriate age, it is up to them to decide whether or not the actions they are undertaking are immoral. how is something immoral if the participating parties are unharmed physically and emotionally? this implies a third party that is passing judgment.

i wonder who this third party is. perhaps it is society. but what is inducing society to judge the actions of consenting and unharmed parties who impose no harm on others? i believe the answer lies in religion and superstition. i must say your wording and many of the assumptions in your post remind me of "paradise lost," and recall biblical images and themes of purity, evil, being "tainted," etc.

interestingly, you don't even seem to be aware of your assumptions. not everyone believes that humans are naturally base or have naturally occurring "wrong" urges. you also assume that things have changed over time, as you say something to the effect of "images that once got people off aren't enough, now we need more and more specific things." the fact that we now possess tools like video cameras and the internet to create and transmit these images does not mean that these images did not exist, unexpressed, in people's heads before the creation of the technology.

all i'm saying is you might want to reexamine some of the assumptions from which your questions and observations originate.

[This message has been edited by lauren7249 (edited 11-27-2006).]

That rule is something that I personally follow. I never said all of humanity should follow it. In a way I kind of think we as people naturally follow it though. If you don't know what I mean by that then you are an ignorant human being. People naturally are loving and empathetic, it's part of our human nature. I don't believe people really want to cause anybody harm, they act out of there own fear and greed and yes it can be wrong at times. We all want to be accepted and loved in one way or another. People just have mixed up ways of thinking. When I think of the words Good and Evil I think of religion. FUCK RELIGION. Like I said if someone wants to get fucked by a pony thats there shit. Who the fuck said it was wrong? Obviously child molestors would be violating the consent of the child by brainwash or physical force and thats fucked up shit. Your right we are a collection of past experiences and are changing as people. But for the most part we like what we like. Perhaps we can change for the better for whatever that should be or mean.

Wow a lotta words for sumtin that yer gonna do anyhow, so

STFU

Was writing multiple paragraphs needed over this subject?

Just fucking jack off. Who gives a fuck what christians think anyway? I'm sure they jack off more than everyone else combined anyways.

I agree with Lauren, on all points.

If masturbating is morally wrong, then so is skydiving.--Aaahhh that adrenaline feels goood.

Don't hate. Masturbate.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

I disagree entirely. Masturbating to something evil only encourages it. Replacing one evil with a lesser evil is still evil. Just because it doesn't affect someone else in an outright manner doesn't mean its not evil.

I can see your point; like I said in my post, masturbation to a particular fetish will encourage the fetish. But I don't think it will encourage it any more than if the person just thought about it all the time, or something. The fetishist has to decide to try to stop him- or her-self from dwelling on that material, not just stop masturbation. It's a tool not a cause, is what I'm trying to say. Like using a screwdriver to kill someone, it's the desire to kill/get off on evil things that is evil; not the screwdriver, or masturbation.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 11-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

I never said the person that has evil thoughts is evil, of course that isn't true. And no, it's not natural for someone to be turned on by "sick shit". You are not born with your fetishes, you develop them from psychological disturbances. I know I did, I know all my friends have, anyone I've had indepth sexual and psychological conversations have did, and I'm sure I could prove that's where yours(if you have them) developed from, too.

Truth of the matter is, you can change what gets you off. I did. You have to change yourself, and for the better. You have to come at peace with yourself and the world, and become a loving person.

Of course the positive outweighs the negative - there is no such thing as a negative. Anything seen as "negative" is merely the lack of a positive.

Everything has an explanation.

How do you know it's not natural? The last time I checked the jury was still out on the whole "Nature v Nurture" deal, did you make a decision? Fact remains that yes, of course some fetishes are a result of something that happened, but that doesn't mean that others are just naturally there. Humans have done everything there is to do with sex, they experiment, they want to test the limits. This is true throughout thousands of years (Kama Sutra) through all races. What's sexually taboo in one place is revered in another. There's a variance, a balance. And I stand by my statement, there is such thing as natural kink, whether you want to admit it or not.

You changed your desires because you wanted to. You felt they were bad. The mind is a very powerful thing. Of course everyone controls everything around them, if you want to be a millionaire, you can be, but a lot of people don't care to change their fetish because they are perfectly COMFORTABLE with who they are. And that's not a bad thing as long as what they're doing isn't harming someone against their will.

You can be at peace with yourself, you can be a loving person and still have these desires. You are saying that these people who feel this way are bad people? That because they allow themselves to enjoy their body and (maybe) the body of their partner's, that they're doing something wrong, something they shouldn't?

I totally disagree, so-called "sick" scenarios I've had beneath the sheets have helped my boyfriend and I grow closer. See a different side of their mind.

Really, when you think about what's really the set, universal definition of what's wrong and right. Just like someone said before, there's really no such thing as right and wrong. People, us, give these things labels and connotations. WE are responsible. And THAT is why there's so much variance in what's acceptable in different countries around the world in any subject of human behavior you can find from sex, to tattoos, to religion. The "norm" doesn't exist.

Being aware of this, I can't be too discriminant in my everyday life. I'm very open-minded. I've done some study on meditation and visualization and my beliefs are that one should fulfill his potential, his purpose, no matter what that is and not care about what other people are doing.

fapping is not morally correct. just as alot of things humans are accustomed to are not morally correct.

For instance. Swearing does not seem like such a "big deal" until you hear a little 4 year old boy/girl start spouting it off everywhere she goes.

but sadly, we humans accept these things into our every day lives as if its no big deal.

quote:Originally posted by alberthofmann:



For instance. Swearing does not seem like such a "big deal" until you hear a little 4 year old boy/girl start spouting it off everywhere she goes.



Wrong. It's acceptability is determined by the place, the situation, and by each person. I'm pretty conservative and, for the most part...it's unacceptable at the workplace, for instance. There is a time and a place.

That said, I have to admit that I tend to respect people less who indescriminately use profanity. To me it displays a lack of self control.

[back to topic.]

Thoughts are just thoughts and should be treated as much.

There are trillions of different people out there, and each one of them has a unique set of life experiences that makes them "unique" as time goes on.

As many said before, I believe, that its those social exeriences that shape who we are sexually.

As long as someone is not hurting someone else who is unable to defend themselves, then who are you to pass judgement on them.

Im so tired of this garbage thats constantly pushed by religious fanatics, who probably have more skeletons in the closet than all of us combined.

Nobody is forcing you to dress up in leather and scream your aunts name while having sex with me, but Im sure someone here would appreciate it

[This message has been edited by Kommandant_Klaus (edited 11-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by alberthofmann:

fapping is not morally correct. just as alot of things humans are accustomed to are not morally correct.

For instance. Swearing does not seem like such a "big deal" until you hear a little 4 year old boy/girl start spouting it off everywhere she goes.

but sadly, we humans accept these things into our every day lives as if its no big deal.

You control how things affect you. If YOU feel that it's bad and morally wrong, well than that's true for YOU. But you do not determine what's right for me. I'm totally comfortable with my sexuality. Like I said, it's a beautiful thing.

As for cursing, My brother's 11 years younger than me. I let him curse when he was 7 just so he would understand it's just a word and it's PEOPLE who give those words weight. You don't know if a foreign person's talking shit to you. And now, he chooses not to always curse because he understands it is frivolous and he must speak in regular words to get his point across. When I first allowed him, he would all the time. Now he doesn't.

Either way, cursing is no big deal. It's just words. Get over it.

And just like I said before. Anyone who has issues with sex, has issues that reach far beyond just sex.

quote:Originally posted by MrMojoRisin:

Get over it.

Why, if it someones preference?

Because no matter one's opinions, we still have to respect other's beliefs. I play the devil's advocate, so people understand there is another side and really neither is RIGHT or wrong. What I'm trying to get across is truth is different for everyone and there's definitely not an explanation for everything.

quote:Originally posted by alberthofmann:

fapping is not morally correct. just as alot of things humans are accustomed to are not morally correct.

For instance. Swearing does not seem like such a "big deal" until you hear a little 4 year old boy/girl start spouting it off everywhere she goes.

but sadly, we humans accept these things into our every day lives as if its no big deal.

I laughed so hard. Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by MrMojoRisin:

Because no matter one's opinions, we still have to respect other's beliefs. I play the devil's advocate, so people understand there is another side and really neither is RIGHT or wrong. What I'm trying to get across is truth is different for everyone and there's definitely not an explanation for everything.

I agree.

This is something I have been dealing with, as late. The awareness that...I might try on something for a while...if for no other reason than to find out if it suits me as well. (that's one of the joys in life, imo...self-discovery) It might look great on someone else, but I might find it's not for me. So, I'll remove it from my wardrobe, or...if I like certain aspects of it...alter it to suit me better.

Such a great pleasure it is.