Or rather when does a boy become a 'man'? I mean in the sense he's ready to hold down a committed sexual relationship?

Hardly a day goes by without my telling some teen here to 'man up' in my jovial, doubtless seemingly patronising ,paternal way.

And i guess several of you may have wondered, as i do constantly, how things are in regard to my own teenage sons (15,16,17). Has jackketch practiced what he preaches? Are his own kids turning into 'men'?

Truthfully I was beginning to despair a bit, most of their relationships so far , although sexual, haven't been particularly 'serious' in my opinion. Infact i don't usually even bother learning the girl's name until she's been an item for at least a week! My only rules were 'No Gingers' and 'Make sure you use a condom!'



However, there was a small incident the other day with my 16 year old which i thought i would relate because 1. Its a good example of the difference between men and boys and 2. It reassured me that maybe I haven't done too badly as a parent (something I worry about a lot!).

About lunchtime the phone rang. My 16 year old son on the phone from his college.

Him: (translated out of the German) " Dad, my girlfriend has been taken ill, been taken to hospital. I am going over to see her now and i won't be coming home this evening, I'll sleep over at her place.She needs me to be with her".

Me: " Ok, thanks for letting me know. Do whatever you think is necessary. Keep me informed."

Notice please two things: First off HE PHONED! Big plus points there! Please, please phone your parents if you're that age and something has come up. A lot of the stress you have with them could be avoided if you just let them know what is going on!



Secondly, and this is the real point. HE DIDN'T ASK ME, HE TOLD ME!. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't rude or disrespectful (no son of mine is quite that stupid). He was taking responsibility for a girl he loves and putting her needs before his own or my wishes .He was respectful but there was just that hint of 'steel' in his voice.

Which , for the biblically minded among us, is the start of the process of 'a man must leave his parents and cleave to his wife'.





[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-07-2006).]

Sounds like he's growing up fine. Through all the bullshit they put you through, things like this probably brighten your week & make you think a bit more of them. Congratulations.

What a load of fucking shit. Western society doesn't raise men any more. In (pretty much) any culture that has ever existed, a boy is considered a man when his father, or duly appointed representitive if the father is not available, presents the boy with his weapons. Only men are trusted with weapons and in aiding the defence of the people. Thats why army guys leave with so much self confidence and ability: Its not the training, its the symbolism buried deep inside our sub-conscious that he is a man.

So yeah if you really want to raise complete men, get them a gun and present it to them in some form of ceremony. It probably only has to be "wake up son, well your 18 now and a grown man, and as a man you are worthy of this <hands jackjnr beretta>. Don't speak of it, just remember what this means and that you are now a man, with all that entails."

Obviously don't just give this to them on their 18th because they're 18 - thats what so special about weapons (and real grown up weapons, a knife wont cut it) if a son is presented a gun by his father, he KNOWS he is considered responsible in his fathers eyes which unknowingly or not is what all boys aspire.

Don't underestimate the importance of this ceremony. You realise they will probably aquire weapons themselves someday anyway, its a natural thing for any man. Judging from your posts, none of your kids seem ready though.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

So yeah if you really want to raise complete men, get them a gun and present it to them in some form of ceremony. It probably only has to be "wake up son, well your 18 now and a grown man, and as a man you are worthy of this <hands jackjnr beretta>. Don't speak of it, just remember what this means and that you are now a man, with all that entails."

Obviously don't just give this to them on their 18th because they're 18 - thats what so special about weapons (and real grown up weapons, a knife wont cut it) if a son is presented a gun by his father, he KNOWS he is considered responsible in his fathers eyes which unknowingly or not is what all boys aspire.

Don't underestimate the importance of this ceremony. You realise they will probably aquire weapons themselves someday anyway, its a natural thing for any man. Judging from your posts, none of your kids seem ready though.

So you need a weapon to make you feel like a man? I'd consider it more manly if a man didn't need a weapon to defend himself with.

I'd actually consider your whole idea on what a man is to be rather outdated and pretty narrow minded.

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

So you need a weapon to make you feel like a man? I'd consider it more manly if a man didn't need a weapon to defend himself with.

I'd actually consider your whole idea on what a man is to be rather outdated and pretty narrow minded.

Exactly. I don't know what halfassed place you're in that you still need weapons to survive, Garrett, but against chavs, wiggers & Pakis a mean stare and a kick in the nuts does the job more than well. You're still living in the colonial age.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

So yeah if you really want to raise complete men, get them a gun and present it to them in some form of ceremony. It probably only has to be "wake up son, well your 18 now and a grown man, and as a man you are worthy of this <hands jackjnr beretta>. Don't speak of it, just remember what this means and that you are now a man, with all that entails."

Obviously don't just give this to them on their 18th because they're 18 - thats what so special about weapons (and real grown up weapons, a knife wont cut it) if a son is presented a gun by his father, he KNOWS he is considered responsible in his fathers eyes which unknowingly or not is what all boys aspire.

Don't underestimate the importance of this ceremony. You realise they will probably aquire weapons themselves someday anyway, its a natural thing for any man. Judging from your posts, none of your kids seem ready though.

Lawl. Not ready for a weapon? Born and raised in Wyoming, I was playing with real guns at the age of 10. Did it make me more of a man? Hell no.

Everyone is capable of learning how to use a tool, maturity doesn't come into play just because a tool can take a life with ease. Even at 10, we knew that guns could easily kill (so tempting, even at that age, to take my own life) and used them responsibly.

This post is pointless in regards to the thread.

Right.. I don't think Jakk meant "man" in the sense of shoot things and eat raw meat.

It's kinda obvious he meant taking responsibility for what needs to be done and putting other people's needs before his own.

Looks like you've done a good job raising that kid Jakk.

Garret, to a degree i agree with you. I would love to let my kids handle guns and teach them how to shoot. But unfortunately, what was a mere misdemeanour in my youth, now carries a mandatory 5 year jail term. In my part of the UK hand guns are illegal, no if's or buts.

Zek is right that firearms are tools like any other. And my kids have had 'tool care' hammered into them from an early age. Same goes for knives.

Your agruement however fails. I'll lay good money that a lot of the american teenies here ,that I have told to 'man up', were responsible gunowners and had had guns given them by their fathers.

Just because someone knows how to handle a Browning hi-power, it doesn't follow that he knows how to handle his dick or his women.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 11-07-2006).]

This is a positive sign.

He is accepting what he sees as a responsibility. A large part of maturity is realizing that you have responsibilities to grasp beyond those that are thrust upon you by others.

Being a man means that when something needs to get done, you get it done.

The most manly of men are also the most young at heart. Being cold and distant throughout your entire life merely makes you bitter and sad. Also lonely, as very few (if any) women want a man that has no emotions.

So when you put away childish things to take up manly things, just remember that being a man just gives you bigger, more expensive toys. Bigger toys, bigger costs, and the understanding that you know when and when not to play with them.

No you people are retards. If being above the age of 21 and being reponsible because he knows to call his dad, and because he can be assertive is enough to be a "man" nowadays then standards sure have fallen. At least the way i was raised, its so much more.

Also you aren't acknowledging the power of symbols and ceremony. Even Nelson Mandella has gone on record saying "i still count the days of my manhood from after i got my ciscumscision" (which is the current practice in Africa). What have we got nowadays, getting your drivers licence, losing our virginity, first time you knock your father on his ass? No wonder "men" are so fucked up today.

Women (like you Kate) will never understand, because a) men and women are fundamentally different, we acknowledge different things in an adult and b) you have a built in symbol/ceremony of adulthood, you have your first period.

You are seeing "gun" and assosciating it with all the fucking shit i would expect of your average street sheep. 'I would love to teach my kids to shoot' its a great pasttime, but really this is a weapon for killing people, save that kind of stuff for 'teaching my kids to fish'.

quote:Originally posted by HandOfZek:

Lawl. Not ready for a weapon? Born and raised in Wyoming, I was playing with real guns at the age of 10. Did it make me more of a man? Hell no.

Yeah thats because in America even 10 year olds can handle weapons, it takes away all the symbolism not to mention the fact that at 10 i don't give a fuck how capable a marksman you are or how safe you handle the weapon you are not mature enough to be trusted with your own firearm and any adult who thinks you are is a fucking idiot because your 10 years old.

Symbolism hardly means anything in terms of maturity.

I was 13 or 14 when I got my first period. I hardly thought I had grown up. Hell, I'm a legal adult and I still haven't.

I agree with Garrett, but not to that extent.

A man is a man when he can look after himself and those he loves and those who depend on him.

It's instinct. Don't let todays society make you soft and breed that out of you. Keep it alive.

quote:Originally posted by Gold n Green:

I agree with Garrett, but not to that extent.

A man is a man when he can look after himself and those he loves and those who depend on him.

It's instinct. Don't let todays society make you soft and breed that out of you. Keep it alive.

Which is exactly what jack was saying... Garrett just has a really weird fetish for guns and the army..

Yah. Present him a nice Armalite/Mannlicher to carry on his shoulder...to & from class. He'll get lots of respect... until the Constabulary take him down.

I like guns and the military too!

Do you like to take guns to class?

I don't go to school and I've never taken one to school. No problem if someone wanted to though. An armed society is a polite society. It would stop alot of massacres.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

No you people are retards. If being above the age of 21 and being reponsible because he knows to call his dad, and because he can be assertive is enough to be a "man" nowadays then standards sure have fallen. At least the way i was raised, its so much more.

Also you aren't acknowledging the power of symbols and ceremony. Even Nelson Mandella has gone on record saying "i still count the days of my manhood from after i got my ciscumscision" (which is the current practice in Africa). What have we got nowadays, getting your drivers licence, losing our virginity, first time you knock your father on his ass? No wonder "men" are so fucked up today.

Women (like you Kate) will never understand, because a) men and women are fundamentally different, we acknowledge different things in an adult and b) you have a built in symbol/ceremony of adulthood, you have your first period.

You are seeing "gun" and assosciating it with all the fucking shit i would expect of your average street sheep. 'I would love to teach my kids to shoot' its a great pasttime, but really this is a weapon for killing people, save that kind of stuff for 'teaching my kids to fish'.

Yeah thats because in America even 10 year olds can handle weapons, it takes away all the symbolism not to mention the fact that at 10 i don't give a fuck how capable a marksman you are or how safe you handle the weapon you are not mature enough to be trusted with your own firearm and any adult who thinks you are is a fucking idiot because your 10 years old.

So when my mum gave me my first box of tampons, that made me a women?

I highly doubt that, there'd be a lot of 12 year old women running around the place, with a handful of 16 year olds still playing with their barbies because they'd still be considered children for not bleeding yet.

If you go by the whole 'when I got my period I became a women' then the weapon thing for a man is bullshit - it should also have to do with some physical change in his body.

When his voice gets deep and his balls drop does he run round screaming 'my balls have dropped, I'm a man!' ?

Maybe in america having a weapon is something special - but where I'm from having a weapon isn't really common at all.

quote:Originally posted by Gold n Green:

I don't go to school and I've never taken one to school. No problem if someone wanted to though. An armed society is a polite society. It would stop alot of massacres.

Do youse mean like author L. Neil Smith? Him & his Libertarian armed citizens? Everybody's armed & all real polite? Except o' course for them wicked Jeffersonians?

Remember what them Libbers say?

'Thank you for pot smoking'

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

So you need a weapon to make you feel like a man? I'd consider it more manly if a man didn't need a weapon to defend himself with.

I'd actually consider your whole idea on what a man is to be rather outdated and pretty narrow minded.

We don't all believe that someone else will fight our battles and protect us.

Nor do we all live in suburbia, where the old Irish police kippy strolls the strreets whistling a happy tune swinging his baton and saying 'Oidhche mhath!' to the bourgeoisie on their safe white porches.

I don't hate you kAtE- but you can't speak for the world.

So, Jakketch, what do you think makes a man? I'd be interested in hearing your opinion specifically.

Butof course everyone else is encouraged to give their opinion of what makes a man.

I often wonder about this. I am 18 myself and having grown up without a father I have often felt that I lacked that masculine father figure who should've taught me what life is all about, how to handle oneself and ones women etc. etc.

It's hard becoming a man on your own, especially when you're not even sure what constitutes a "real man" to begin with.

^^^When yer in the 'steam bath'? Always give it...never 'take' it?

I got my first knife at five years old, my first BB gun at 8, and my first firearm at 12. Of course I had been out shooting before, but I got one for myself 6 months after I turned 12.

I think any one action my father did that made me feel as I had grown up to be a man was when I was working for him doing contract painting work, and he finally let me do my own job bids, instead of going through him. He pretty much gave me the resources, and said here, go do it. As opposed to him saying here, I have this job, it pays this much, you have this much time.

I was 19.

My dad's the fucking greatest man. I love him to death.

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

So you need a weapon to make you feel like a man? I'd consider it more manly if a man didn't need a weapon to defend himself with.

I'd actually consider your whole idea on what a man is to be rather outdated and pretty narrow minded.

go away feminazi

Jack, i dunno, this doesnt seem that much of a step to me.

Maybe things are differernt around here, but it'd be considered an arsehole thing to do if you didn'tdo that, even if it was just for a friend, let alone someone you loved.

It's when you can have your own responsibilites. It's knowing if your girlfriend got pregnant you could stick around and support them. It's when you can take on a man much bigger then you and have the confidence to not back down. Along those lines. Although i'm 17 and everyone thinks i'm atleast 19 I was never around kids my own age being pulled out of school for most of my years at school. So I started hanging out with my brothers and sisters when I was about 10 (they were all 17+ and I would be friends to their friends just as much as they were. Ok that doesn't really have tod o with this but I still show my mom respect because she has earned it. I will call her, I WILL NOT lie to her if she confronts me of something i've done, we've both figured it out that I won't get in trouble if I just admit it and "man up to it" and deal with it myself.

Ok i'm rambling, damn cocaine, time for a cigarette.

quote:Originally posted by stupid noob:

I got my first knife at five years old, my first BB gun at 8, and my first firearm at 12. Of course I had been out shooting before, but I got one for myself 6 months after I turned 12.

I think any one action my father did that made me feel as I had grown up to be a man was when I was working for him doing contract painting work, and he finally let me do my own job bids, instead of going through him. He pretty much gave me the resources, and said here, go do it. As opposed to him saying here, I have this job, it pays this much, you have this much time.

I was 19.

My dad's the fucking greatest man. I love him to death.

You see, without bringing guns into it at all maybe some of you will take notice of how powerful small actions can be. For Stupid Noob doing his own paint jobs was that symbol. At the end of the day its all about being a man in your fathers eyes, and the day the father acknowledges this.

Maybe its different for all males and im simply biased towards the gun thing because thats how my father did it. It wasn't my birthday or anything, he just woke me up early one morning and (in summary) said "Garrett you are a grown man now who i know will be strong, proud and independent. Here is your favourite pistol, i want you to have it, because only children cannot be trusted with weapons."

quote:Originally posted by Andreas:

We don't all believe that someone else will fight our battles and protect us.

Nor do we all live in suburbia, where the old Irish police kippy strolls the strreets whistling a happy tune swinging his baton and saying 'Oidhche mhath!' to the bourgeoisie on their safe white porches.

I don't hate you kAtE- but you can't speak for the world.



I don't live in the land of lollypops and candy mountains, please I'm not that naive. I just think that the idea of proving oneself as a man has nothing to do with weaponary.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

You see, without bringing guns into it at all maybe some of you will take notice of how powerful small actions can be. For Stupid Noob doing his own paint jobs was that symbol. At the end of the day its all about being a man in your fathers eyes, and the day the father acknowledges this.

Maybe its different for all males and im simply biased towards the gun thing because thats how my father did it. It wasn't my birthday or anything, he just woke me up early one morning and (in summary) said "Garrett you are a grown man now who i know will be strong, proud and independent. Here is your favourite pistol, i want you to have it, because only children cannot be trusted with weapons."

You place too much emphasis on symbols.

Think of it this way: the ability to use a tool (gun) responsibly can be taught to anyone without them growing as a person. It can also help them grow to be a better person, but then it was never the tool that did so. Rather, it was the discipline and dedication to improvement.

By telling his father (which is the biggest reasons jack made this post) that he was going to stay instead of asking, he has shown that he has grown and is no longer a "child". This was done not by learning responsibility (think: he could have ASKED his dad to stay knowing the answer would be yes, thus showing his responsibility to the girl), but rather by knowing he did not have to ask.

If jack was one to place so much importance into symbols, he'd probably pick the next day to present his son with a gun. Maybe your dad did the same, and you didn't realize it.

quote:Originally posted by RogueWarheart:

go away feminazi

How the FUCK does that post show any feminist ideas? No where did I state women were better then men. I infact suggested that a man was MORE MANLY if he was to defend himself without a weapon. I never said that their wasn't a stage either when a boy became a man - I'm just saying it has NOTHING to do with handling weapons IMO.

Sure a lot of my posts in this forum are driven from a feminist point of view, but that one sure as fuck wasn't. So stop trying to find an excuse to attack my opinion. If you're gonna do it, then do it properly with a thought out post you moron.

It might also interest you to know that I'm one of the very few people in my country that has grown up around guns being in the house, hunting as a child, and clay target shooting. And I have a fucking vagina.



[This message has been edited by kAtE- (edited 11-08-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by HandOfZek:



By telling his father (which is the biggest reasons jack made this post) that he was going to stay instead of asking, he has shown that he has grown and is no longer a "child". This was done not by learning responsibility (think: he could have ASKED his dad to stay knowing the answer would be yes, thus showing his responsibility to the girl), but rather by knowing he did not have to ask.



Exactly!

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

And I have a fucking vagina.





Omg your points and ultimately your opinion have just been discredited. ^^

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

How the FUCK does that post show any feminist ideas? No where did I state women were better then men. I infact suggested that a man was MORE MANLY if he was to defend himself without a weapon. I never said that their wasn't a stage either when a boy became a man - I'm just saying it has NOTHING to do with handling weapons IMO.

Sure a lot of my posts in this forum are driven from a feminist point of view, but that one sure as fuck wasn't. So stop trying to find an excuse to attack my opinion. If you're gonna do it, then do it properly with a thought out post you moron.

It might also interest you to know that I'm one of the very few people in my country that has grown up around guns being in the house, hunting as a child, and clay target shooting. And I have a fucking vagina.





The very fact that you are a woman disqualifies you from posting in this thread. I don't think it matters as much to your gender, but the concept of 'manhood' is very important to us males.

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

I just think that the idea of proving oneself as a man has nothing to do with weaponary.

Well, your wrong. Any man without a gun is basically at the mercy of everyone who has one, and any male who can accept this regardless of age is no man to me.

It's hard to apply this thinking to the UK though because guns are outlawed to the degree they are. Its an undeniably fucked up situation, and im not going to say stuff like all Englishmen are pansies because their government denies them guns, all i will say is that i fear for a society where the average citizen can't be trusted with a weapon. How patronising.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

Well, your wrong. Any man without a gun is basically at the mercy of everyone who has one, and any male who can accept this regardless of age is no man to me.

It's hard to apply this thinking to the UK though because guns are outlawed to the degree they are. Its an undeniably fucked up situation, and im not going to say stuff like all Englishmen are pansies because their government denies them guns, all i will say is that i fear for a society where the average citizen can't be trusted with a weapon. How patronising.

I disagree with the UK limiting guns to the extent they have as well. Kind of scary imagining a government doing so.. although I suppose a revolution in America is just as unfathomable.

I fail to see how being able to win any fight (why else would you suggest an unnatural advantage to make a man?) makes a person a man. Real men can solve a problem without killing it.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:



It's hard to apply this thinking to the UK though because guns are outlawed to the degree they are. Its an undeniably fucked up situation, and im not going to say stuff like all Englishmen are pansies because their government denies them guns, all i will say is that i fear for a society where the average citizen can't be trusted with a weapon. How patronising.

I think (and the history of arms control in England shows) that the politicians *spits* are less concerned for our safety than their own...

Gun control only really came in after WW1 when the government got scared of all the former Somme veteran 'rabble' possibly becoming 'Bolsheviks'. And ,of course, the fight for Irish freedom didn't help much either.

quote:Originally posted by HandOfZek:

I disagree with the UK limiting guns to the extent they have as well. Kind of scary imagining a government doing so.. although I suppose a revolution in America is just as unfathomable.

I fail to see how being able to win any fight (why else would you suggest an unnatural advantage to make a man?) makes a person a man. Real men can solve a problem without killing it.

What makes a real man is a refusal to be a victim, not a desire to kill people.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

Well, your wrong. Any man without a gun is basically at the mercy of everyone who has one, and any male who can accept this regardless of age is no man to me.

It's hard to apply this thinking to the UK though because guns are outlawed to the degree they are. Its an undeniably fucked up situation, and im not going to say stuff like all Englishmen are pansies because their government denies them guns, all i will say is that i fear for a society where the average citizen can't be trusted with a weapon. How patronising.

DO YOU NOT GET IT? Not every country is like america!

The ONLY males here that would own a gun are likely to be farmers or people with a serious interest in guns.

By your opinions, the majority of males in a lot of other countries are still boys because they don't own a weapon - that's fucking stupid!

I'd like to see you come here and tell males my age that they aren't men and see how well you do without your gun.

i wish my parents were like that, if i tell them i'm doing something that they disagree with in the slightest, they just say " no your not" and wont even discuss why etc.

if i go and do it anyway, they kick up an almighty shitstorm which just makes it not worth defying them because it causes so much damn trouble. this is all for things that are pretty reasonable. any reasons i do get are completely illogical, and just step round the question.

and im 18 this month, and if anything they have been getting worse as i get older.

its so important to let your kids have responsibilty and independence- shelter them to a point, but when it comes down to it, they have to learn alot of lifes lessons themselves.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

What makes a real man is a refusal to be a victim

That takes a gun?

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

DO YOU NOT GET IT? Not every country is like america!

The ONLY males here that would own a gun are likely to be farmers or people with a serious interest in guns.

By your opinions, the majority of males in a lot of other countries are still boys because they don't own a weapon - that's fucking stupid!

I'd like to see you come here and tell males my age that they aren't men and see how well you do without your gun.

Your post seems to be suggesting that if i insult your peers by saying they aren't men then they will engage in a fist fight. Kind of proved my point there honey.

quote:Originally posted by HandOfZek:

That takes a gun?

Yeah it does. Im not saying you should walk around with a .44 in your hand permanently, but at the end of the day you are at the mercy of anyone with a firearm if you don't own one. Haven't you heard of Tiananmen Square?

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

Yeah it does. Im not saying you should walk around with a .44 in your hand permanently, but at the end of the day you are at the mercy of anyone with a firearm if you don't own one. Haven't you heard of Tiananmen Square?

I'm sorry, but a person with a gun can still EASILY fall victim to someone without one, and a person can refuse to be a victim without one.

Not that ANY of that has to do with being a man.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

Your post seems to be suggesting that if i insult your peers by saying they aren't men then they will engage in a fist fight. Kind of proved my point there honey.

My point was that I would consider it more manly for a guy to defend himself without a weapon, but his fists.

Which I stated in my first post.

I did not say it was a way in which to define a man from a boy though.

Jack - Is german your childrens first language or second?

In my opinion a becoming a "man" has nothing to do with age,height,weight,build or any of that bullshit. It has to do with responsibility. You are a man if you take responsibility for your actions, take care of your family if you have one and you get shit done.

The word "man" is overused and a lot of guys are still litty boys no matter how old they are.

Its not the way to define it! However i think that as a man you must protect those you love, and therefore you should arm yourself. I think any responsible man would do this, and if you have not made reasonable attempt to do so then no in my book you are not a man. In England it is virtually impossible to obtain a gun, does that mean they aren't men in spirit? No, however in any country where it is possible for a man to have a gun, then he is wrong not to get one.

Im sure even in New Zealand most men of the house sleep with a baseball bat under the bed. Do you think that if a man doesn't at least prepare himself to resist a man bent on raping his wife and daughters he is being lapse in his role? Do you not think any decent man would undertake said preparations? What if the rapist has a gun? You have failed at protecting your family, that's what. If a man can get ahold of a gun, but chooses not to, he is failing to be a protector, and no man in the sense we're discussing would fail to protect any innocent woman.

Your idea that it is more manly to fight with fists than weapons is stupid. Thats like someone with one arm saying "i could beat you up if you were disabled like me."

Again, and I don't know what stuck-in-the-past part of the world you're stuck in, Garrett, you can't apply your lovely romantic cowboy ideas about manhood to today's world. Maybe to your region, maybe to the kind of people embracing symbolism (in particular ballistic phallic extensions), but not to the world.

quote:No you people are retards. If being above the age of 21 and being reponsible because he knows to call his dad, and because he can be assertive is enough to be a "man" nowadays then standards sure have fallen. At least the way i was raised, its so much more.

There we have it, it's personal.

You could be brought up & raised in the best way possible -that being your sole opinion set aside-, it doesn't make the rest of the people any less.

quote:Also you aren't acknowledging the power of symbols and ceremony. Even Nelson Mandella has gone on record saying "i still count the days of my manhood from after i got my ciscumscision" (which is the current practice in Africa). What have we got nowadays, getting your drivers licence, losing our virginity, first time you knock your father on his ass? No wonder "men" are so fucked up today.

Where I come from, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of people here, we don't have these traditions, we grew past those. Africans may receive a hunting spear, young naked greek boys may leap over a bull, you may receive a weapon, it doesn't make you more of a man than anyone else. That's the retarded thinking here, machismo has lost its value years ago.

...

quote:Maybe its different for all males and im simply biased towards the gun thing because thats how my father did it. It wasn't my birthday or anything, he just woke me up early one morning and (in summary) said "Garrett you are a grown man now who i know will be strong, proud and independent. Here is your favourite pistol, i want you to have it, because only children cannot be trusted with weapons."

You're coming to your senses, good to see .

...

quote:The very fact that you are a woman disqualifies you from posting in this thread. I don't think it matters as much to your gender, but the concept of 'manhood' is very important to us males.

Speak for yourself, not everyone embraces the hard protective badass cowboy image.

quote:Well, your wrong. Any man without a gun is basically at the mercy of everyone who has one, and any male who can accept this regardless of age is no man to me.

Yet again, your country, your laws, your point of view. Any male who does not share your point of view is no man in your eyes? You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're on the losing end here, the world is changing and it's not in your favor. Tough luck.

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quote:What makes a real man is a refusal to be a victim, not a desire to kill people.



And the only way is a gun? Please.

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quote:Yeah it does. Im not saying you should walk around with a .44 in your hand permanently, but at the end of the day you are at the mercy of anyone with a firearm if you don't own one. Haven't you heard of Tiananmen Square?

Honestly, think it wouldn't have been as big of a mess if the victims of Tiananmen had had guns? That's just plain silly, it would have been a fucking bloodbath. Maybe in favor of the side you support, but retaliations would fuck up any theory of everyone being armed for good. Different country, different rules, we're not all under the same law, religion, or point of view.

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quote:Originally posted by jvm222:

In my opinion a becoming a "man" has nothing to do with age,height,weight,build or any of that bullshit. It has to do with responsibility. You are a man if you take responsibility for your actions, take care of your family if you have one and you get shit done.

The word "man" is overused and a lot of guys are still litty boys no matter how old they are.



And that about sums it up.

Your being adhering to some extremely ooooold societal rules, garrett.

For instance, a woman can be just as lethal as a man if she has a gun. Women can have guns, too, its not a symbol of being a man, its a symbol of being able to defend yourself.

In your mind, being able to defend yourself and others, is synonymous with being a man. Thats a little old fashioned and domineering, as it firmly places women as slaves to mens whim. Whether or not i agree with that, doesnt matter, and i wont say, but thats what it is .

As for my opinion on being a man, i think a person is a man when they begin to make completely rational decisions where a teenager or child would let excitement take hold and take risks for no real gain. Im of the opinion that its whats in your mind that makes you a man, more than your physical ability. A cripple can still be a 'man', if hes capable of making the responsible decision. If he decides to race down the highway on his wheelchair, because he thinks itl be funny, then hes still a kid.

quote:Originally posted by Nereth:

. A cripple can still be a 'man', if hes capable of making the responsible decision. If he decides to race down the highway on his wheelchair, because he thinks itl be funny, then hes still a kid.

As it happens the son in question is a cripple and in a wheelchair.

This is coming right off the top of my head, but here goes...

These things make a man:

1) When you understand your own desires are not the end of the world, and you sacrifice your own view of how things "should" be, for how there are, what your son did was an example of this, in my opinion. I guess you can make sacrifices which aren't really "man-making", because there is certainly a degree in self autonomy and "pride" in being a man, which leads on to my second point...

2) You develop the desire to move away from "the flock", to seek out your own path on certain (or many) issues, even if it would be technically "harder". You see animals leave and go into the wilderness, yes? I believe with humans this is done on more of a "mental" level, as most of us live in societies (then again, that "shaman" path of moving to the wilderness alone to explore the mind has been used as an initiation ceremony of a boy into a man in some cultures), so it is that willingness to "challenge" what we have grown up with (and begin to "resent" as teenagers) except this isn't done out of angst, it is a movement towards autonomy, and the understanding that you are "emmerging" as an independant being, the same as any other on earth. With this of course comes responsibility, so those who move psychologically towards preventing injustice, and in improving your own mental outlook can be seen as becoming men. This is why you can have a BOY with a gun, running around shooting things, but a MAN understands either the respect and care that is needed in these situations, or rejects the entire situation alltogether.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

As it happens the son in question is a cripple and in a wheelchair.

I remember you mentioning that...ages ago...but I thought you had that one...dealt with?

Is this why he gets all the ladies? The sympathy bid?

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

My only rules were 'No Gingers'

I just lost every ounce of respect I ever had for you.

quote:Originally posted by Shadowhunter_36:

I just lost every ounce of respect I ever had for you.

Quiet, ginger lover.

I'd hate to live in Garrett's world where everyone is out to get you. Hell, I can leave the door wide open and noone's gonna come in with a gun, maybe because not every fuckup is raised to believe it's their right to be dangerous to others. Your country is total shit and your crime ratings show it

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

Even Nelson Mandella has gone on record saying "i still count the days of my manhood from after i got my ciscumscision"

I never felt like a man before they horribly disfigured my most sensitive area of the body for nonsensical cultural reasons

quote:Originally posted by Andreas:

Quiet, ginger lover.

its not that, its the idea behind it. Thats the same thing as saying "no Blondes, no East Europeans, no <insert random demographic here>" Who is he to dictate to his sons what hair color the girls they date are and are not to have? Thats some fucked up Nazi 'perfect race' type shit right there.

quote:Originally posted by Shadowhunter_36:

its not that, its the idea behind it. Thats the same thing as saying "no Blondes, no East Europeans, no <insert random demographic here>" Who is he to dictate to his sons what hair color the girls they date are and are not to have? Thats some fucked up Nazi 'perfect race' type shit right there.



Its not a question of race but species.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



Its not a question of race but species.

I'm wondering if your definiton of ginger differs from mine. I always thought a ginger was anyone with red hair and light skin tone, and questioned what you said because I've known several redheads, they can be very beautiful and seductive, not to mention their reputation as freaks in bed. Are you just talking about South Park style super-gingers? Cuz then I can sort of understand. I've met a few of those...scary.

quote:Originally posted by Garrett:

Even Nelson Mandella has gone on record saying "i still count the days of my manhood from after i got my ciscumscision" (which is the current practice in Africa). What have we got nowadays, getting your drivers licence, losing our virginity, first time you knock your father on his ass? No wonder "men" are so fucked up today.

I think it's more fucked up to have my body senselessly mutilated than to get my driver's license.

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

And I have a fucking vagina.

For some reason this really grossed me out. Not like "ew, kAtE- is ugly"; I think you're attractive. Just all of a sudden the idea of a vagina made me sick.

I'm not gay, I swear!

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:



Originally posted by kAtE-:

And I have a fucking vagina.

For some reason this really grossed me out. Not like "ew, kAtE- is ugly"; I think you're attractive. Just all of a sudden the idea of a vagina made me sick.

I'm not gay, I swear!

I just like the way the word rolls off the tongue.

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

I just like the way the word rolls off the tongue.



I like vulva, myself.

Kind of sounds like a flower...

...or...a car...

Plug your sewer, Garrett.

What "makes you a man" is debatable, but a broad definition would be the responsibility to take action when it's needed.

A gun won't do that. Owning a firearm and learning to respect and use it with responsibility, will teach you that.

Jack, your boy did good. +1 to him.

quote:Originally posted by oc6:



I like vulva, myself.

Kind of sounds like a flower...

...or...a car...

And cheese? Processed cheese?

Like Kraft 'Vulveeta' Cheese?

^^^You're the cheesiest.

quote:Originally posted by kAtE-:

So you need a weapon to make you feel like a man? I'd consider it more manly if a man didn't need a weapon to defend himself with.

I'd actually consider your whole idea on what a man is to be rather outdated and pretty narrow minded.

Bitch, please. You're female and your notions of manliness are tinged with sugar and spice and douches.

Jeeze!^^^Sounds like a flavorfull & cheerfull exotic Xmas Punch?