Can a consensual sexual act be immoral?

After answering this for my self, I thought I'd ask the opinion of totse . What do you think?

-F☺rd

WWJD

quote:Originally posted by Ford Prefect:

Can a consensual sexual act be immoral?

Yes, if one of the people is in a monogamous relationship, then of course it would be immoral.

Depeding ont he morals you ahve. Anything you do could be immoral.

quote:Originally posted by gadzooks:

Yes, if one of the people is in a monogamous relationship, then of course it would be immoral.

QFT

i don't think so. i define consensual very specifically, though.

quote:Originally posted by Eye_Of_The_Watcher:

Depeding ont he morals you ahve. Anything you do could be immoral.



Of course. If we all had the same morals then asking a question like this would be usless.

-F☺rd

quote:Originally posted by Eye_Of_The_Watcher:

Depending on the morals you have. Anything you do could be immoral.

Fixed for typos, QFT.

Plus, there are issues with "consent". Sometimes society disagrees when people think that they can give consent for something.

Not if it meets two additional conditions:

1) Both individuals fully understand the consequences of their actions.

2) The act does not negatively affect another individual.

quote:Originally posted by fullcircle:

Not if it meets two additional conditions:

1) Both individuals fully understand the consequences of their actions.

2) The act does not negatively affect another individual.



exaaactly

I have to ask why you would choose to use the word immoral?

Morality varies greatly from person to person and there are simply so many different moral systems.

Edit: Yes, consentual sex can be immoral. It can go against what is accepted, but I don't think that you mean to use that word.

[This message has been edited by Euda (edited 09-20-2006).]

Immorality and consent are both really subjective.

What's immoral for one is not for another, and what is consent in one circumstance could be viewed as anything but in retrospect. :O

[This message has been edited by CatharticWeek (edited 09-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Euda:

I have to ask why you would choose to use the word immoral?

Morality varies greatly from person to person and there are simply so many different moral systems.

Edit: Yes, consentual sex can be immoral. It can go against what is accepted, but I don't think that you mean to use that word.



What word would you have used?

Of course is subjective, and there can be different answers from different people. I was wondering what you personally though, based on your own moral values.

-F☺rd

Morality isn't necessarily subjective, there are convincing arguments for universal moral principles that would be agreed on by any rational being.

There's a huge logical flaw in the "if one of the people was in a yada yada" argument. One of them could be, but that means both of htem coudl be, as well... in fact they could be in the same monogamous relationship.

quote:Originally posted by Xiao Mei:

WWJD

Fuck his mom & dad and rape virgins.

quote:Originally posted by fullcircle:

Morality isn't necessarily subjective, there are convincing arguments for universal moral principles that would be agreed on by any rational being.

It's quite subjective.

Take my mother and I for example!

My mother-

Honest to a fault. Brought back items a store forget to ring up, excess change, would never lie(even if not lying meant terrible things) yada yada yada. (Not religous btw)

Me-

I have no problem with stealing, crime, violence, bad things or lying. I believe one should be honest with family and friends. I don't believe in hurting children. That's my major beef.

(My father is very honest as well)

I was raised to be honest, "rich kid"(see young adult self entitlement now), good person and yada yada yada. I found my own view of the world, despite my "quite respectable upbringing".

PS: I don't have any personality disorders or anything besides a difference in views.

quote:Originally posted by RogueWarheart:

I have no problem with stealing, crime, violence, bad things or lying.

Those are your moral principles, that's OK. But did you accept them on some rational basis?

quote:Originally posted by fullcircle:

Those are your moral principles, that's OK. But did you accept them on some rational basis?

I accept them based on how I've developed as a person through my life.

I have no problem with lying, because it'll obtain a better result with "example123" than being honest will.

An example. Ask me with specific examples, if you wish. I always enjoy critical thinking.

Yes, it can be.

If you shoot someone you hate just because they say they want to die because they're depressed, well, that's pretty immoral in my book.

If this is going to become a discussion of non-relationship centered moral principles then i will have to move it.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

If this is going to become a discussion of non-relationship centered moral principles then i will have to move it.



What about withholding current events you're engaged in, that could hurt or scare someone.

Example,

Few years ago. Had a gf. I was in plenty of criminal shit, that could've gotten me in quite a load of trouble. I didn't want to scare her, so I'd rarely tell her any of it.

Right? Because I don't want to scare or worry her.

Wrong? I am lying by omission.

quote:Originally posted by RogueWarheart:

I accept them based on how I've developed as a person through my life.

I have no problem with lying, because it'll obtain a better result with "example123" than being honest will.

An example. Ask me with specific examples, if you wish. I always enjoy critical thinking.

But the thing is, a moral principle has to declare something to be "right" or "wrong", correct?

So what happens when rationality is applied to your principles?

Kant devised one of the most respected methods for judging the moral character of a principle: what happens if EVERYONE behaved that way?

In your case, it means everyone would lie, cheat and steal from YOU too.

Wouldn't that be self-defeating then, if you chose those principles because they are useful?

Obviously in the real world, things are different. But the point is that if you rationally examine your principles, you can't claim they are moral. Unless you have an argument that can prove Kant wrong, which would be interesting to hear.

When most people say "morality is subjective because X and Y seem right to me but wrong to others" what they really mean is "X and Y are convenient and useful to me so I like them, but X and Y cause problems for some other people so they don't like them". That's not morality, people are just using the terms "right" and "wrong" ambiguously.

[This message has been edited by fullcircle (edited 09-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by fullcircle:

[B] But the thing is, a moral principle has to declare something to be "right" or "wrong", correct?



Correct. There are many times when I won't do some things, however.

quote:

So what happens when rationality is applied to your principles?

Kant devised one of the most respected methods for judging the moral character of a principle: what happens if EVERYONE behaved that way?



I realize that. People are welcome to take their best shot at me. If they mess with me or my family, I'll mess them up, bad. However, I never hold anyone to a different standard.

quote:

In your case, it means everyone would lie, cheat and steal from YOU too.



Yep. See my previous reply.

quote:

Wouldn't that be self-defeating then, if you chose those principles because they are useful?



It would depend on the outcome of an action.

quote:

Obviously in the real world, things are different. But the point is that if you rationally examine your principles, you can't claim they are moral. Unless you have an argument that can prove Kant wrong, which would be interesting to hear.



I would say "morals" are different among each person. We all have different ways of expressing our truth. In the end, we all want to be good people at heart. Even the worst, most vile killers and such. It's just how we express it. That really depends on how we view "being a good person". Someone who feels "if I have possessions, I am complete" may buy/steal way beyond their nature means. Why? So they feel complete. They feel if they've achieved their truth. They've got their toys, cars, house and family. They may be happy, or totally hollow inside.

I'm sort of in that boat. I want to help people, I'm very caring and low key type person.

I want to learn, have, see and do everything. Growing up with plenty of nice things always, I don't really value anything. My sense of entitlement is quite a player in how I relate in that sense.

It's quite a selfish type behavior as with pirating GB's & GB's, stealing or w/e. It's just I want...XYZ...Yes, it's selfish and immature. That's just how I am.

I'm not this "terrible person", though I'm capable of quite bad things. Sure, I'd beat the hell outta someone or worse, depending how bad they're ratting was. If someone hurt my family or w/e.

I'm a very caring, laided back, charming guy most of the time. I always wonder how I can be that way, yet have such a dark streak within me. I've never had anything remotely "traumatic" happen, and don't have any personality disorders. So there go the first checks.

Take abortion. I don't want to stir up such a heated topic, but hear me out!

Both sides have drastically different values. Even resulting in terrorism, murder and other horrid acts to promote their side.

One side argues that it's murder and therefor shouldn't be legal.

Another side argues it's an issue of compassion. Saving a would-be child from perhaps an unstable home, terrible life and maybe leading to a bad future.

In the end, both sides are trying to be "good people". They just seek such a status for different values which guide them down a very different path of life.



quote:

When most people say "morality is subjective because X and Y seem right to me but wrong to others" what they really mean is "X and Y are convenient and useful to me so I like them, but X and Y cause problems for some other people so they don't like them". That's not morality, people are just using the terms "right" and "wrong" ambiguously.



That's where I disagree. I think everyone holds different morals in their quest of life. I desire to be a good person, help others and all the great stuff. In friend situtions or w/e, I'm always willing to listen, care, be there for someone and it's completely geniune. I look at life as a matter of choices. What's in the best interest for me, at least moment & future? I may do *insert deviant act* because I feel it's the best at the time. I feel I need this to do something or learn something. It's really personal greed. I don't see anything wrong with the action. I see it as the path towards something and what I learn from it can be used towards good. So I guess I somewhat agree with your view.

It can be CONSIDERED immoral, but whenever it IS immoral depends greatly. Situational ethics and all that.

Humanities is for all sortsa filo-soffiKal stuff.