Well. Sorry for the two posts straight in a row, but that's the way my thoughts are going today.

Right now, I'm a 16 year old male, so of course I say "I'm never having kids!". But let's face it: I'm human, and I'll probably eventually want to have offspring to carry on my legacy/name/whatever.

Here's the thing: the reason why I never ever want to actually have a child (IE impregnate a woman) is simple: it's too selfish even for me.

Why is it selfish, you ask? Because there are, at this point, over 6.5 billion people in the world. By the time I'm old enough to be a parent (I'd say 25 is a fair age), there will be nearly 10 billion humans. Adding another one seems to be the ultimate act of selfishness.

What's the point of this topic? If I ever decide to have kids, I will adopt. Will. I urge everybody to consider how selfish having your own children really is, and then discuss or state your views (differing or agreeing) here.

Don't give us that shit.

If the earth has a problem with our population, it'll kill a ton of us off.

Until then, fuck away.

'Selfish act,' my ass. If you can take care of the kid, that's all that matters. Fuck the Ethiopians, the only thing important is feeding your own child.

Oh yeah, and just because of your viewpoint, I'm going to go against my personal beliefs and have 8 fucking kids like a wetback, just to spite you self-righteous bastards who have a problem with humans doing what nature intended them to do.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Oh yeah, and just because of your viewpoint, I'm going to go against my personal beliefs and have 8 fucking kids like a wetback, just to spite you self-righteous bastards who have a problem with humans doing what nature intended them to do.

I'm honored. Truly.

But you could also argue that nature didn't intend for us to drive cars or live in houses. Moot argument.

And if nature has a problem with my driving a v8 gas guzzler, it can take it up with me.

Doing something unnatural is far different from someone trying to tell you that you shouldn't do something completely natural. The latter is essential, the former is just a nice add-on.

I didn't want to have children at age 16, 25, 32, or now. By this age, after seeing all my contemporaries with their children, and I still don't want to have anything to do with the little fuckers, it's unlikely I'll ever change my mind.

At minimum, a child has a price tag of $250,000 to age 18. More if you have to support them through college.

Fuck that. I want to live comfortably, retire early and travel indefinitely without having to work my ass off 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks out of the year, for decades.

I don't think it's necessarily selfish to have kids. I actually think I'm selfish for not wanting to have kids.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

I didn't want to have children at age 16, 25, 32, or now. By this age, after seeing all my contemporaries with their children, and I still don't want to have anything to do with the little fuckers, it's unlikely I'll ever change my mind.

At minimum, a child has a price tag of $250,000 to age 18. More if you have to support them through college.

Fuck that. I want to live comfortably, retire early and travel indefinitely without having to work my ass off 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks out of the year, for decades.

I don't think it's necessarily selfish to have kids. I actually think I'm selfish for not wanting to have kids.

I love you.

I used to agree with you 100%, but more and more I tend to think along the lines of Survival of the Fittest... yeah it's selfish, and it probably means some little reject in ethiopia is going to live in rags, but...

Hmmm, I guess the jury is still out on this one for me.

I don't like kids, can't stand them really, but I like my kid. There is something to be said for producing your own offspring.

to The_Rabbi, mother earth does have a problem with it she's dying and if we continue she is going to die. she's really sick. http://www.rizstory.com/images/poem2_01.gif

Bullshit. We are nothing compared to the might of the earth. It will never die, you're just paranoid.

It'll sooner kill us all off than die.

Check your intent mookie... you don't want to be selfish so how do you feel about adopting a needy child? Perhaps one that is wheelchair-bound for life or needs extensive medical attention. That would be a selfless act, but might require some sacrifice on your part.

How would you "shop" for your prospective adopted child? Does it have to be a girl? A boy? Healthy? Does it have to have all it's body parts? Mental acuity?

I'm just curious... since you posed the question.

Yeah, adopt an autistic kid. They need good homes.

I wouldn't adopt because then there is no chance my kid would be as awesome as me. You never know what you're getting as far as stuff thats passed on through DNA goes with adoption. I'm only 17 and I want to have a kid someday, but definatly not adopted, and if my balls stop working for some reason before I can have a kid, then I probably still wont adopt. On second though, maybe I should somehow preserve some of my sperm now for later, my balls have been taking quite a beating in rugby...

[This message has been edited by Rattrap51 (edited 08-11-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Rattrap51:

I You never know what you're getting as far as stuff thats passed on through DNA goes with adoption.

That sounds like the same argument people use for only buying pure-bred dogs, rather than mutts from the shelter.

Only problem is, the pure-breds are in-bred, and can have a ton of genetic disorders. The mutt, while not exactly the most perfect physical specimen, will be a healthy, energetic, loving companion for many years to come.

And at 1/10th the price of a pure-bred, too.

I totally agree..

that most of you shouldn't breed.

Honestly, I don't want to have a child either. Kids are fine and all, and I wouldn't mind raising one ... but I have a bunch of health problems (a deteriorating spine for one thing) so I doubt I could safely carry a child to full term. So I am thinking of adopting, if/when I feel I'm ready to raise a child.

On another note ... with that attitude, and also a Darwinistic attitude ... is it contradictory of me to want to go to a fertility clinic and donate eggs? Sorry for that random thought, if it throws anyone ...

Wouldn't it be awesome if all the craziest women and all the craziest men donated sperm and eggs and they made an army of perfect people, who then killed all us infidels? Except we fought back and killed them all? And then the robots tried to take over? But we kicked their asses too, what a life.

On a side note thats why stupid people/weak people should continue to donate sperm and eggs, because if they didn't then evolution would have its way and the people who aren't naturally born would kick our asses.

quote:Originally posted by The_Rabbi:

Don't give us that shit.

If the earth has a problem with our population, it'll kill a ton of us off.

Until then, fuck away.

'Selfish act,' my ass. If you can take care of the kid, that's all that matters. Fuck the Ethiopians, the only thing important is feeding your own child.

It WILL kill a ton of us off, my semitic friend, and it will happen in our lifetimes. Or deathtimes. Whatever. Regardless, I plan on getting a vasectomy. For convenince's sake.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

I didn't want to have children at age 16, 25, 32, or now. By this age, after seeing all my contemporaries with their children, and I still don't want to have anything to do with the little fuckers, it's unlikely I'll ever change my mind.

At minimum, a child has a price tag of $250,000 to age 18. More if you have to support them through college.

Fuck that. I want to live comfortably, retire early and travel indefinitely without having to work my ass off 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks out of the year, for decades.

I don't think it's necessarily selfish to have kids. I actually think I'm selfish for not wanting to have kids.

I also love you.

quote:Originally posted by Rattrap51:

Wouldn't it be awesome if all the craziest women and all the craziest men donated sperm and eggs and they made an army of perfect people, who then killed all us infidels? Except we fought back and killed them all? And then the robots tried to take over? But we kicked their asses too, what a life.

On a side note thats why stupid people/weak people should continue to donate sperm and eggs, because if they didn't then evolution would have its way and the people who aren't naturally born would kick our asses.

*Not sure if this is supposed to be a dig on me or not... *

I would donate eggs so that couples who seriously want children could have children, whereas I do not want children. Therefore, it is selfish of me to shed these eggs until menopause sets in, when someone else can use these eggs to fulfill their wishes.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

I didn't want to have children at age 16, 25, 32, or now. By this age, after seeing all my contemporaries with their children, and I still don't want to have anything to do with the little fuckers, it's unlikely I'll ever change my mind.

At minimum, a child has a price tag of $250,000 to age 18. More if you have to support them through college.

Fuck that. I want to live comfortably, retire early and travel indefinitely without having to work my ass off 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks out of the year, for decades.

I don't think it's necessarily selfish to have kids. I actually think I'm selfish for not wanting to have kids.

Gees... I hate to say it, but I love you too.

Eh. *shrugs* I might be selfish, but I would kill any of you fuckers to ensure that my babies get to live.

Even DC, though I love her to bits and pieces.

quote:Originally posted by AirshipCaptain:



It WILL kill a ton of us off, my semitic friend, and it will happen in our lifetimes. Or deathtimes. Whatever. Regardless, I plan on getting a vasectomy. For convenince's sake.

Suuurrre it will.

Whatever. Until it does, I'm doing whatever the fuck I want, including what Darwin decided was my purpose in life.

If you don't feel the need to pass on your genes or create love with your partner thru having children, yet would love to create love thru someone elses children then I think this is a wonderful way to accomplish that. There are a lot of children out there who need loving homes.

Having your own kids rocks. I have 2, and in just a few years I won't have to cut the grass anymore! Or do the dishes, wash the cars, etc etc...

BWHAAHHAAHAHA!!!!

True, true. It is free slave labor.

Like your very own mini-negroes.

quote:Originally posted by LutherX:

Having your own kids rocks. I have 2, and in just a few years I won't have to cut the grass anymore! Or do the dishes, wash the cars, etc etc...



Looking forward to those days LutherX.

But without children, one can easily afford to hire folks to do all the dirty work. Folks who do their work without complaints and bad attitudes and then leave.

Oh, thanks for all the love, heh.

^^ Good Point. Well, the kids do leave too, eventually....

It's offical, everyone loves Cindy. And some of us think she's hot too.

I'm a bit divided on the having kids thing. I'm all for adopting in general. But let's look at it from a somewhat jaded viewpoint. Most kids that go up for adoption are from stupid sluts that were two fucking stupid to use a condom, or from people who otherwise occupy the shallow end of the gene pool. We are already living in an era where stupid fuckers are breeding at a phenomial rate, and many of those with inteligence and good health are waiting longer to have children or not having children at all. Encouraging adoption will just speed this process up. What we need long term is to get the smart healty people to breed more.

But how does this fit with the fact that the planet is dangerously overcrowded now? What we need is to discourage the underbelly of society from breeding. The following are a few ideas on how to accomplish this.

First off, we need some biochemists to come up with a chemical means of sterilization. I am sure more guys would be willing to take a setrilization shot than let someone come near their groin with a scalpel. And getting a women's tubes tied is an expensive and somewhat complex procedure.

This leads to being able to do something that desperatly needs to be done. Sterilization of welfare mothers. I can't and won't in good concince say that it is so bad (yet) that we should take forcible means to keep people from having 6 kids if they want. But this will keep stupid whores from breeding just to get a larger check from the government.

Education: We should do this and do this now. School 'health' classes teach abstinince as the only option. They say nothing of oral sex, and won't even acknowledge it exists. We need to teach the next generation how to not be sexualy stupid (though they are sure to find other ways to be idiotic with the opposite sex). And for the love of [insert deity here] we should not allow parents to pull their kids out of these sessions. The types that do this are also the types that won't teach their own kids the real facts of life but insted leave them with some stupid book about flowers and shit. If they even do that. The system won't let parents pull out their kids because they disaprove of history classes, and history is unlikely to be more important than sex and reproduction to almost everyone.

I know we aren't supposed to mess with religious practices, but we don't allow human sacrifice do we? When it comes to our own safety we should be able to interfere. In this spirit, I say we should no longer allow the Catholic Church to get away with their disaproval of contraceptives. Hell, get the Pope involved. John Paul II may have alzheimers, but he's still a progressive thinker in terms of his religion. True, because the religous right is so pissy he's had to be delicate about what buttons get pushed, but he could probably squeak through his aproval of the condom.

And most importantly, I propose what I call the Worldwide Condom Initiative. Basicly it would be a system for people to anonomusly get free condoms. At many hospitals, doctor's offices, and community health centers they already do this. That's fine and well, but many people are not aware of this. If I wanted to go get free condoms in this town, I would not know where to go. This is yet another awareness issue that needs to be addressed.

Come on people. We have to be willing to save ourselves if we want to survive.

quote:Originally posted by Lotana_Aria:

*Not sure if this is supposed to be a dig on me or not... *

I would donate eggs so that couples who seriously want children could have children, whereas I do not want children. Therefore, it is selfish of me to shed these eggs until menopause sets in, when someone else can use these eggs to fulfill their wishes.

No, I wasn't flaming or making fun of you, just saying that anyone who wants to donate eggs/sperm should be able to. There is no guarantee your bad shit will be passed on, and there is no guarantee they wont get it by some other fluke... besides it would probably make you feel good that you helped someone out, and if it ends up turning for the worst you wouldn't even know about it

quote:Originally posted by Prometheus:

First off, we need some biochemists to come up with a chemical means of sterilization. I am sure more guys would be willing to take a setrilization shot than let someone come near their groin with a scalpel. And getting a women's tubes tied is an expensive and somewhat complex procedure.



Hey you! You haven't been around in awhile!

Actually, both vasectomies and tubal ligations have come a long way. Vasectomies usually take less than half an hour in the doctor's office (hospital if patient insists on general anaesthesia) and no longer involves a scalpel to the scrotum. Just a couple of tiny punctures to reach the vas deferens and tie it off. Tubal ligations, while done in the hospital under general anaesthesia, is also a simple outpatient procedure. A couple of tiny incisions is all it takes. Modern surgery involves use of (I don't know what they're called) "periscope" type things that allow the surgeon to see inside without having to cut it all open.

About egg donations: Women with favorable genes actually sell their eggs for a few grand. "Favorable" often means leggy beauty queens with a Stanford phD and a family history of longevity and healthy offspring. It's not easy to donate eggs; the extraction procedure is highly invasive surgery. Much more so than sterilization. So I wouldn't do it unless I were being paid pretty well.

Hmmm, I don't want children now, but I'm certain my future self will want a Gustave Thomas Wuterich V so he can save Gustave Thomas Wuterich II from Gustave Thomas Wuterich III...

Err... Maybe I should try and make that little line, in the middle of my room, that distinguishes between fantasy and reality a bit darker...

quote:Originally posted by Prometheus:

*snip* (no pun intended)

Thank you. I totally agree; a means of mass sterilization would be a boon on society. I know it sounds crude, but something like "birth control in the drinking water"-esque would be a good idea, I think. Just to make sure nobody has kids until they're absolutely ready. This would get rid of all "accidental" pregnancy (which is hardly accidental).

Education is really important too. I know, at least here in Utah (and in New York believe it or not), they don't even mention condoms. Oh, except to tell about how unreliable they are. Same with any form of contraception. I blame Christianity but that's a whole other topic. As (who was it?) Cindy/sarc (one of those I think) said: "Jesus is not an effective cockblocker". Truer words have never been spoken. Classes need to discourage teen sex but then take a "harm reduction" approach (condoms contraception safer sex etc).

However, I think you put too much emphasis on genetics and intelligence etc.; nature v. nurture is highly debatable.

Prometheus, take it from someone who lives in a highly religious area. Religious people are ridiculous. But you knew that already.

The_Rabbi, Darwin's ideas are bunk when applied to humans. We both know that, I think. That's a piss poor defense. But sure I'm not going to hold having kids against you; it's just selfish, that's all. And we're all selfish to some extent (read: almost totally selfish), but the act of having children is too much for me.

quote:Originally posted by deptstoremook:



The_Rabbi, Darwin's ideas are bunk when applied to humans. We both know that, I think. That's a piss poor defense. But sure I'm not going to hold having kids against you; it's just selfish, that's all. And we're all selfish to some extent (read: almost totally selfish), but the act of having children is too much for me.

Yes, we both know that. I just like the concept of 'survival of the fittest.'

But it's not selfish. If anything, NOT having kids is selfish, in today's society.

You and your ilk are going to shoot yourselves in the nuts. The baby boomer generation had so few kids that when it comes time for them to become dependent on Social Security, there will be far more people withdrawing than depositing. The people about the become senior citizens are screwed.

And now, with the birth rate dropping further still, I hope you selfish fucks have your own individual retirement plans, because you won't get any help when you get older. And the ones who don't think about this will starve.

P.S.: I hate Social Security and think it should be opt-out, but the point still remains that the trend of not having children, or only having one, is going to seriously impact the parents when they get to retirement age. These people counted on SS being there; I don't.

I don;t want to have children of my own lineage. I might adopt.

I have several genetic instances I would NEVER pass on to anyone else, no matter how small the chance. No one needs to go through certain things that I have.

Financial stability is one thing to consider. A big thing. I have transplant bills and such that I prob will never see the end off, so how can I afford to raise another human being? That would be selfish to have a kid just because I want one, and then not be able to provide any decent type of life for it.

Ok I love Cindy too.

^ That is being unselfish.

As I stated in my first post, the most important thing in the world is that you are able to properly care for your own children. Fuck the Ethiopians.

^Yeah, if people who were able to care fully for children were the only people HAVING kids, shit, we'd be in a whole different world.

I just keep thinking, "Man, you can't even pay for your own ass!! No kids!"

As far as my thing bit about genetics goes, ok, I'll admit that being the scientific type I do put an emphesis on it. Twin studies have shown that inteligence is about 50/50 as far as the nature/nurture arguement goes, and many heath issues are between pretty high up there in the genetics department. While I do encourage strengthening the gene pool, and am an adament supporter of sterelization of those with serious genetic diseases, that actualy has little to nothing to do with my views on population control.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I do not support, in fact oppose, sterilizing the masses. Or putting limits on how many children couples can have (last time I checked we were still pretending to be a democracy after all). Convincing people not to have kids is another matter, and is something that should be done worldwide. But if a family can afford to have many kids and give them the attention they need, they should be able to. A friend of mine came from such a family, with 10 brothers and sisters.

I thought it would be interesting to point out that several years ago a comprehensive study was done on population growth that used experts in those fields that effect population growth, such as immigration. This study concluded that probably somewhere around 2050 or 2070 the population will actualy start to drop. By that point we will have no less than 15 billion people on this planet.

$250k or more for 1 kid. 250k would keep my comp updated with the latest hardware for the next 125 years. that or some annoying kid. btw moremans are f'ed up