If a friend believes you have betrayed him and you disagree, have you?

Are you subject to unwritten rules which you think are bullshit when others will be negatively affected if you break them? If it's a matter of degrees, how much do they have to be hurt before it stops being ok to disregard said rules?

At what point does honor outweigh love?

Because it is difficult to answer these questions without a point of reference, I'll briefly explain the motivation behind the asking. Some of you may remember that I mentioned I have a girlfriend now. It is unfortunate, to say the least, that we met because she was dating a good friend of mine who has had girls more or less stolen out from under his nose twice before, inasmuch as a person can be thieved.

The two of them were not going to last as a couple. We had an attraction brewing before they broke up, but didn't really hook up until afterwards. My main concern in terms of misunderstanding was that it would appear that she left him for me, which is not the case. When I broke the news officially to him tonight, that did come up, but the major focus was on the "unwritten rule" that you don't date your friends' exes and that I betrayed him by doing so. He claimed that had we started dating five years from now he would feel the same way; realistically, I am aware that's tempered by the fact he wouldn't give two shits if it happened in five months or five weeks if he had another girlfriend, but the point is made nonetheless.

I dare not explain the overall reaction I received, as it is utterly indescribable when considered as a whole. Suffice to say that had my worst imaginings come to pass, those being that he would show up at my door with a gun, it may well have turned out better than the reality.

And thus, we have the questions above. But to prove I haven't lost sight of the greater world around me, I offer one last softball to the group:

Has Sarc popped yet?

That's why you ask your friend first. Or at least tell him what you are doing(before hand), and that you hopr it won't ruin your friendship.

Gee Spiffy, and I thought I had a challenging week.

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:

If a friend believes you have betrayed him and you disagree, have you?

Are you subject to unwritten rules which you think are bullshit when others will be negatively affected if you break them? If it's a matter of degrees, how much do they have to be hurt before it stops being ok to disregard said rules?

If the outcome of their relationship would have been the same with or without you in the picture, then your role is essentially irrelevant. And from what I know of your situation (and as you posted), that seems to be the case.

Does he have an issue with the lady in question? Surely she had to break up with him somehow. She does have the right to leave a relationship that isn't healthy or right for her.

So your concern is that you've done something "dishonorable" by being with her. I don't know, at some point don't we all have to grow up? I don't think it's reasonable that he expects his feelings to be protected by his friends all his life.

There is probably a good reason he's had girlfriends "taken from out under him" and it's about himslef, not friends who "do him dirt" by "stealing" his girlfriends.

It's a ghost!

Because I know you better than the average poster, in your case those "unwritten rules" don't apply to you.

Under other circumstances though, they have a possibility of being valid. For instance, someone who dates his friend's ex as an act of revenge or to piss him off. That goes against those rules and it's wrong.

If a girl has sex with her friendss ex of 3 year just because she wants to fuck - that's wrong.

Sometimes you do the "wrong" thing for the right reasons.

If you have those reasons (genuine attraction and caring) than you're set.

Love conquers all!

[This message has been edited by MrMojoRisin (edited 06-30-2004).]

I don't think one should have to ask permission to be with someone. Your friend has to realize that you are entitled to be with whom you choose.

The only time I would say you're in the wrong is if you personally sabotaged the relationship for the purpose of making them break up which you didn't.

Nokio

Allow me to clarify one thing: I feel bad for my friend, but I do not feel bad about entering this relationship, regardless of his reaction. This is another one of those situations where I seek a number of replies due to my curiosity about how many people think what, not because I need validation that I'm in the right. Anyone who believes I am morally incorrect has different morals than I, which is a factor outside my control.

That said, I'm off to bed. I appreciate the replies thus far and will be looking forward to more. If it sows conversation, so much the better.

And you two should e-mail me and let me know what's up.

[This message has been edited by Spiffy McBang (edited 06-30-2004).]

"Do unto others what you would want done unto you"

I guess it depends on whether your friend still has feelings for this girl or not? And in what circumstances their relationship ended ( whether it ended on a good note and if they are still friends) .

I married my best friends Ex ( my best friend and I had been friends since 8 years of age- and may I add , we still are very best friends) . They had , however, been broken up for 4 years before him and I started dating. They had a child together - so I then became the step mother to my best friends daughter .

I have been married for 15 years now and over the years we have all gotten along well . It was a great situation for my step daughter too having her Mum and I as best friends. Even better now as my step daughter is now expecting her first baby - so my friend and I will both be grandmother's together ...

I guess it is an unwritten rule not to date friend's Ex's .....I did ask my friend before her EX and I started dating if she was OK with it and if there was any chance of them getting back together etc, she was fine with it ....not sure what I would have done if she said No though !

"Look at things from all perspectives"

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:



At what point does honor outweigh love?



Every moment, of every day.

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:

...Has Sarc popped yet?

Good question, man.

Here is my summation of the situation:

You're friend is completely overreacting. It is understandable for him to have lost that many girlfriends to his friends (or "friends"), but he is looking in the wrong places to find his problem. He obviously has some shit wrong with himself which you, as a friend (although from the sound of the way he reacted I'm not so sure that you two are still on existing terms), should help him realize and overcome.

P.S. You should visit more often.

Just ask yourself if this connection is the real thing and if it's worth even the *possibility* of losing the friend over. I gave into a situation much like this once, lost two friends. Look before you leap, buddy.

quote:Originally posted by Little Pea:

Good question, man.

Here is my summation of the situation:

You're friend is completely overreacting. It is understandable for him to have lost that many girlfriends to his friends (or "friends"), but he is looking in the wrong places to find his problem. He obviously has some shit wrong with himself which you, as a friend (although from the sound of the way he reacted I'm not so sure that you two are still on existing terms), should help him realize and overcome.

P.S. You should visit more often.

you used the wrong form of your*.

May I ask how long after they broke up you hooked up with his ex? A few hours? Days?

Yes, and has Sarc popped yet? If she had, would anyone know about it? She's probably taking care of little baby dear and far too busy and exhausted to move.

stay away from your friends ex's for christ sake. Its not that fucking hard and it avoids situation like this.

My hero returns!

All's fair in love and war. If your friend ever grows up, he'll get over it. IMO that whole "don't date your friend's ex's" rule is completely rediculous.

Haven't popped yet... today maybe?

quote:Originally posted by whiteass:

stay away from your friends ex's for christ sake. Its not that fucking hard and it avoids situation like this.

If it was never that hard, these questions would not have formulated in my mind, this post would only be real in some alternate dimension, and I wouldn't be sitting here demanding pictures of Mom and Boyo once Boyo officially exists.

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:

If it was never that hard, these questions would not have formulated in my mind, this post would only be real in some alternate dimension, and I wouldn't be sitting here demanding pictures of Mom and Boyo once Boyo officially exists.



its only hard if you have a lack of options

*chuckle* whiteass, you just don't know Spiffy. When he was a moderator here (for years) people got to know him pretty well. Actually, you're correct, he doesn't have a lot of options, but in a very good way. I'd be surprised if he felt like explaining his personal ideologies in a nutshell for a newcomer, so save your debates for me, if possible.

I feel like damanding pictures of you and the new missus before I even consider paying out pics of my own. Or just you, you know, a face shot so that I don't just imagine a headless body every time I think of you and wonder how you are!

I have an email that works, finally, jsackett@orcon.net.nz. Feel free.

On topic... how responsible are you for the way other people choose to feel? That's a damn good question, one I've been pondering all day. I'm still stuck in this goddamn house, for lack of better options, and Ben is doing god-knows-what with a chick... this effects me, obviously... I'm stuck in the house and can't get away from it. But how responsible is he really for the way it makes me feel? I think he's fairly responsible for fucking with my mind, under the circumstances. How responsible are you for the way your mate feels? Well, the thing is he can escape it, he can distance himself from the both of you and get away from what is causing him pain. He might not be able to escape the torture chamber of his mind, but that's his own doing isn't it... hmm, I just don't know?

What I do know, that whole "bro's before ho's" business is just stupid. It is far worse to ignore the possibility of being with your soulmate than it is to risk losing even a great friend.

*edit - by the way, according to the machine they had me hooked up to today I'm having contractions... and can't feel them! I'm sucha hard-ass.

[This message has been edited by Sarc* (edited 07-01-2004).]

Actually, I don't mind sharing this particular ideology, as it's fairly simple and straightforward.

I'm picky.

He does make a good general point. Those who are unable to attract members of the opposite sex except by miracle or underhanded deed will often take the first good thing which comes along, regardless of the cost to others. I sense that, to one extent or another, that's how many of our mutual friends will view this, despite the fact it's no secret I'm not easily attracted to anyone.

For my own part, I grew up a tubby, zit-faced, goofball fucktard with a small circle of friends and no ability with the fairer sex. Therefore, I learned by observation. The first lesson was one which I found to be repeated over and over and over again- people enter relationships unwisely and pay the emotional price. As such, despite whatever loneliness I felt that could be relieved by hooking up with anybody or finding a way to land a one-nighter, it was always my belief that to do so would cost me more dearly than staying the course and maintaining patience.

I never found much interest in most girls. The vast majority are flawed in such huge ways that I could never consider them as potential girlfriends, and in most cases not even for a fling. To those who regularly get laid and have a bedpost so notched it's beginning to look like some intricate totem pole, that may seem like an insane comment. In fact, the argument was thrown my way that there are millions of women out there, so how could I do this to my friend with this single one?

The answer is that this one is not those millions.

It's interesting to note that there has been an attraction between myself and a handful of other women which went nowhere, generally due to my continued minimal level of skill in building on a good conversation and turning that into a date or whatnot, or the simple fact they've had boyfriends. It was always girls from that group which everyone wants, who have amazing charismatic powers and intelligence to boot, and I knew that only from that select lot would I find someone I could be happy with.

If you know the type of girl I speak of, some of whom reside here, you'll know that by default my options would be limited solely due to there being so few of them compared to the population as a whole. You may think that changes nothing, but rest assured, the people on our level know when we've found what we need, what we've always sought, whether we realized it or not. That is not worth discarding in order to bow to someone else's emotional malfunctions, their jealousy and possessiveness, which is, sadly, the main force behind his meltdown.

Breaking my own general rule and making a second reply:

At the end of the day, everyone is responsible for how they handle what has befallen them. Polite society doesn't entirely believe that, of course, which is fine; it's good to know others will look out for your well-being, and it engenders a sense of gladness and worth to do the same for them. The downside is that people have a tendency to play by different sets of rules, which lead to situations like mine thousands of times a day all over the world, around a multitude of different catalysts (not every problem is of the boyfriend-girlfriend-third wheel variety, of course).

That, in turn, leaves us with the unfortunate fact that each situation needs to be judged by its own merits. As the human race has this godawful tendency to tell sense it can damn well fuck off, people will often take their blocky, self-made laws and apply them to the letter regardless of what details may warrant a different approach.

So how responsible *are* we for the feelings of others?

I would argue that we are the only ones we have to live with at the end of the day, and that we cannot be held responsible for more than putting forth our best, most honest effort to lessen or erase the negative impact of our actions on others while not screwing ourselves over in the process. There are levels to this, depending on exactly who may be affected by our actions, but it's the general theory I try to put forth in whatever activities I partake.

Despite that, I feel some responsibility for my friend's state of mind; had the girl and I not gotten or stayed together, this wouldn't be happening. But I don't feel bad about doing it, because we tried to find a way to make it better, even though it's likely none exists. In Ben's case, he should feel like an utter fuckhead, because nothing you've said even remotely suggests anything but self-interest in his actions. If someone else comes around with a similar tale, they'll probably fall somewhere in the middle. It varies.

And what the hell happened to your screen name? Pregnancy wreck your fingers so that you can't stand to spell out Sarcophagus anymore?