Well, I'm in Health class, and we're doing sex ed (which basically gives me the excuse to snicker whenever the teacher says a word [the snickering is the funny part, not the word {I'm above toilet humor}]). Now I live in Utah (which everyone on TOTSE should know, god knows I complain about it enough), and everyone is mormon. So they don't teach about contraception. Fine. The thing I have a problem with , though, is abstinence until marriage. I understand most religions like it this way.

But I got to thinking, and came to this conclusion: not having sex before marriage is bad. We can delude ourselves in fairy lollypop land all we want, but when we face the facts, sex is an important part of any romantic relationship - especially a lifelong, commited relationship. So when two Christians get married, and have never had sex, two consequences occur: A) They're both clueless about sex, and when they get over that (by hook or by crook), b) They find out they're sexually incompatible.

So isn't waiting until marriage for sex, even if you're planning on having one partner, unhealthy?

Whatever works for you. I am not going to judge those who abstain. I am not going to join them either, but some of them have happy lives.

Quite apart from the fact that like 80% of the people who swear not to have sex b4 marriage do.

And when they do, they have MUCH higher chances of gettin pregnant/disease, cuz they don't have a clue about sex.

Just my 2cents.

Sex is very misleading and is probably the leading cause of divorce. People have sex, think that they're in love, stay together for a couple of years, have a kid, get divorced. I think that if you keep sex for marriage then you can safely look for someone that you are compatible with on all other levels.

I myself would rather fuck fuck fuck right now...Then moan about not getting any from the wife in years to come!

You're only young once..And waiting for marriage is just wasting that youth.

Having never participated in sex doesn't necessarily mean that you're clueless about sex. You do have a point, though, since Americans have this passive aggressive obsession with SEX(tm) where the media and everyone else is fascinated by it, but no one wants to talk about it in any sensible manner.

The point is, when two conservative religious people save sex for marriage, chances are that their expectations of sex are fairly similar to begin with. There will be minor disagreements, but like most relationships, you eventually work them out. So it's not really that unhealthy.

Similarly, when two liberal individuals get together, they have a similar idea of what to expect of sex. So that's not unhealthy either.

The unhealthiness in waiting for marriage is more in the two-faced hypocrisy regarding marriage. On the one hand, waiting for marriage is good because sex is some magic wondrous genie-in-a-bottle thing that will magically make you the best husband and wife (or husband and husband or whatever) on the face of the universe and god will bless your union and you'll live happily ever after.

On the other hand, sex is like the "greatest shit, d00d!" Being a pla-ya is teh sexay (note sarcasm), and you're "a man" when you lose your virginity. Most of the insults on totse alone center around how ____ never gets any pussy.

So you can't be "a man" until you have sex, and you can't have sex till you're married. Hmmm.....

As for divorces, that argument doesn't make any sense.There's less pressure to get married even if they think they're in love because they didn't buy into the religious definiton of the chaste marriage anyway. There are many people who rush into marriage because they want to have sex, too. They feel attracted to each other and think they're in love, when they're really in lust. Unfortunately, they don't figure out the difference until after they've had sex, and consequently, married.

quote:Originally posted by JohnTitorsAssistant:

Having never participated in sex doesn't necessarily mean that you're clueless about sex. You do have a point, though, since Americans have this passive aggressive obsession with SEX(tm) where the media and everyone else is fascinated by it, but no one wants to talk about it in any sensible manner.

The point is, when two conservative religious people save sex for marriage, chances are that their expectations of sex are fairly similar to begin with. There will be minor disagreements, but like most relationships, you eventually work them out. So it's not really that unhealthy.

Similarly, when two liberal individuals get together, they have a similar idea of what to expect of sex. So that's not unhealthy either.

The unhealthiness in waiting for marriage is more in the two-faced hypocrisy regarding marriage. On the one hand, waiting for marriage is good because sex is some magic wondrous genie-in-a-bottle thing that will magically make you the best husband and wife (or husband and husband or whatever) on the face of the universe and god will bless your union and you'll live happily ever after.

On the other hand, sex is like the "greatest shit, d00d!" Being a pla-ya is teh sexay (note sarcasm), and you're "a man" when you lose your virginity. Most of the insults on totse alone center around how ____ never gets any pussy.

So you can't be "a man" until you have sex, and you can't have sex till you're married. Hmmm.....

As for divorces, that argument doesn't make any sense.There's less pressure to get married even if they think they're in love because they didn't buy into the religious definiton of the chaste marriage anyway. There are many people who rush into marriage because they want to have sex, too. They feel attracted to each other and think they're in love, when they're really in lust. Unfortunately, they don't figure out the difference until after they've had sex, and consequently, married.

That is some very deep shit

You are a very wise man

Its easy to abstain fron sex until you actually have sex. Then it flips some kind of switch in your brain.

If you abstain till you get married, its much nicer because you can focus on being you for much longer instead of being so obsessed and when you finally do get laid, it'll be to someone who you know really loves you and wont hurt you and play nasty games with your heart like less dedicated people would.

And thats the truth

quote:They find out they're sexually incompatible

how can a man and a woman be sexually incompatible? as long as everything is in working order then they are compatible or are you so large that you think you might be just to big for her to accomodate?

at the moment i am living in sin as my parents called it (well actually they call it whoredom!). it feels kinda wrong but i know we will marry when i'm old enough.

quote:Originally posted by henteichicken:

how can a man and a woman be sexually incompatible? as long as everything is in working order then they are compatible or are you so large that you think you might be just to big for her to accomodate?

at the moment i am living in sin as my parents called it (well actually they call it whoredom!). it feels kinda wrong but i know we will marry when i'm old enough.

Jesus...Fucking...Christ...do you have to bring up your altered sense of reality in every fucking post. You must be infrared's biological daughter. Jesus christ people like you should just shoot yourselves, actually fuck that, that makes a mess and noone wants to clean your brains off the bathroom wall. So go break into a drugstore, and pop all the pills you steal. Seriously, i really dont want a little kid running around thats been raised by you or your pedophile boyfriend. Murder him, kill yourself, save the world.

what a pity your parents obviously shared my "altered sense of reality" and were 'pro life'.

quote:Originally posted by henteichicken:

how can a man and a woman be sexually incompatible? as long as everything is in working order then they are compatible or are you so large that you think you might be just to big for her to accomodate?

at the moment i am living in sin as my parents called it (well actually they call it whoredom!). it feels kinda wrong but i know we will marry when i'm old enough.

I guess that means that you'd sleep with and enjoy sleeping with every guy in the world.

Raise your standards a little bit, troll.

no it means i physically could sleep with any man.

raise your IQ a little bit, troll



[This message has been edited by henteichicken (edited 05-23-2004).]

sure physically you could but does that mean that you would like it?

and mabey some people don't want to be with someone who they don't enjoy having sex with.

yes sardonic you may be right but if you love someone enough to sleep with them then surely it would work out with pratice and be enjoyable? (i may be on dodgy ground here having only had one male partner).

hentei, you parents were religious zealots. I however, dont believe in religion in any form. I believe in rationality and common sense. And i still believe you should kill yourself and not spread your seed throughout the world.

quote:Originally posted by henteichicken:

yes sardonic you may be right but if you love someone enough to sleep with them then surely it would work out with pratice and be enjoyable? (i may be on dodgy ground here having only had one male partner).

you don't have to love someone to have sex with them

^^^no i guess you don't but then you couldn't really expect it to be good. unless its just a case of gratifying lust.

quote:Originally posted by whiteass:

I believe in rationality and common sense.

now that is the funniest thing i have read tonight. you have such an ironic sense of humor!

quote:Originally posted by YKSH:

Its easy to abstain fron sex until you actually have sex. Then it flips some kind of switch in your brain.

So does many other things. Credit cards, McDonalds. Marriage isn't a magic pill that fixes the urge and provides restraint. What's the difference between mindless humping before or after marriage? If it turns out to be meaningless, the only difference is marriage leaves you with a divorce and kids some time down the line.

quote:

If you abstain till you get married, its much nicer because you can focus on being you for much longer instead of being so obsessed <snip>



What does abstinence have to do with being you? It's a matter of self confidence. For every self confident virgin that's focusing on being himself, I can find another ten virgins who have no self confidence as a result of it. Those end up marrying Big Rhonda just to get some self esteem. If you choose to abstain of your own free will and take confidence from it, that's different, but that's not for everyone.

It's not the truth, it's an opinion. It's not really possible to claim that you've done both abstain from and indulged in premarital sex, so you can never claim that you KNOW which one is better for sure. Unless you can reincarnate yourself, then you're not a Christian, so it stops an being an issue.

actually, what Mast-Of-Fish [?] said was true. people who DON'T plan on having sex before marriage are unprepared, and when it happens...happened to a cousin of mine. CHristian family, never THOUGHT abotu sex before marriage. Well, it happened, and he had a kid at seventeen. the truth is, if you dont want to have sex b/f marriage, you arent carrying a condom in your wallet. so when it happens, you arent prepared. Same for STD's - theyre easier to get.

quote:Originally posted by Little Pea:

Sex is very misleading and is probably the leading cause of divorce. People have sex, think that they're in love, stay together for a couple of years, have a kid, get divorced. I think that if you keep sex for marriage then you can safely look for someone that you are compatible with on all other levels.

Only the most idiotic idiot would do something that retarded. But you could be right, because there are a lot of stupid people out there. Then again, abstinance sucks, period.

Preface. I am a virgin. I am a male. I am 20 years old. I have been dating my current girlfriend for 4 years. I believe in Jesus.

Body. There isn't a single bad thing that can come out of waiting till you're married to have sex. If you're not attracted to the person you're with, you're an idiot. Why bother? This "People need to practice" idea is total bullshit. Playing Guitar is something you need to practice at, putting your dick into a girl's vagina is not that difficult. "But theBishop you don't know what you're talking about, you've never had sex", well, neither has my girlfriend because we're both virgins so it's not going to make a difference and as we learn what eachother like we'll feel more close to eachother because we won't be trying "moves" on eachother we learned on other people.

Which brings me to my next point. I don't want to be with someone whose had a bunch of dicks in her over the years. I feel much better knowing that i'm the only one who's been there. Maybe other people don't feel that way, but can you honestly say you'd prefer someone who's been banged frequently since she was 14 to someone you've both had your first time with? Some people may say yes, but i think that's probably just a tradeoff they're willing to make to have the ability to fuck lots of people.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of reasons not to have sex before you're married, pregnancy being the obvious one. Sure we have condoms and pills and shit, but nobody *wants* to use that stuff and the fact of it is if you're having sex frequently, you're not going to get it right everytime. And when a girl finally does get pregnant then it's time for the abortion. I'm not against abortion, but i think people should take responsibility for their actions. If a girl gets pregnant because your condom doesn't work, it's not the condom's fault, it's yours, why kill a child over it?

I could keep going, but i think i have enough flamebait here.

conclusion. many people who try to build a philosophy of why it's ok to have sex when you're not married, are trying to justify in their heads their own weakness. have sex if you must, but your marriage won't be as strong as it could be, and you won't feel as close to your spouse as you could feel.

more conservative bullshit from,

theBishop

^^^^ YES! finally someone who makes real sense.

The way he puts it, is the way it should of been.

quote:conclusion. many people who try to build a philosophy of why it's ok to have sex when you're not married, are trying to justify in their heads their own weakness. have sex if you must, but your marriage won't be as strong as it could be, and you won't feel as close to your spouse as you could feel.

:\ Why would having sex before marriage make the marriage any weaker? Frankly, you sound like my health teacher (take that as you will). I don't see how it could possibly degrade the marriage - then again, I don't put the spiritual significance (or, more specifically, any significance) on marriage.

quote:Body. There isn't a single bad thing that can come out of waiting till you're married to have sex. If you're not attracted to the person you're with, you're an idiot. Why bother? This "People need to practice" idea is total bullshit.

I've said it above, and I'll say it again. Being attracted to somebody and being sexually compatible with them are two different things - when you get married and start having sex with your girlfriend, what happens when you find out that she's not satisfying you - and don't give me that bull about sex 'not being for pleasure'. If it wasn't for pleasure we wouldn't be able to obtain pleasure from it.

quote:Meanwhile, there are plenty of reasons not to have sex before you're married, pregnancy being the obvious one. Sure we have condoms and pills and shit, but nobody *wants* to use that stuff and the fact of it is if you're having sex frequently, you're not going to get it right everytime. And when a girl finally does get pregnant then it's time for the abortion. I'm not against abortion, but i think people should take responsibility for their actions. If a girl gets pregnant because your condom doesn't work, it's not the condom's fault, it's yours, why kill a child over it?

Now that was flame-bait. Birth control, when used responsibly (by responsible people) is almost 100% effective. If somebody's incapable of remembering to take a pill every day or put on a condom for sex, they shouldn't be having sex. That's the simple truth.

quote:Body. There isn't a single bad thing that can come out of waiting till you're married to have sex.

I don't know about you, but I'd sure consider not having sex until I'm married a serious detractor, because let's face it: sex is for pleasure. Whatever spiritual or emotional significance you want to attach to it, it would be incredibly naive to say that physical pleasure is not one of the most important aspects of sex. And I'm not high and mighty enough to say that I don't appreciate the physical pleasure.

I'm just going to come right out and say that I place no value whatsoever on marriage. Personally, I view it as a trite thing (especially in today's society, where Christianity is [STARTING] to take a back seat to secular thought), and something to not be bothered with. I've never had sex either (in the strict sense of vaginal penetration), so I'm in the same boat as you bishop.

Bishop, you are a pretty cool guy though, even though we basically disagree with each other on everything, at least you're capable of forming a coherent argument. (You're welcome for the e-blowjob)

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

There isn't a single bad thing that can come out of waiting till you're married to have sex.



How about a divorce?

quote:

Which brings me to my next point. I don't want to be with someone whose had a bunch of dicks in her over the years. I feel much better knowing that i'm the only one who's been there.

Not many people do, but when you get down to it, does the value of a person lie in her/his virginity? If you found out right now that (purely fictional case here) your parter had either lied about sexual parters or gotten raped, do you love her less? _Why_ does it bother you?

OTOH, I've had pre-marital sex. We're engaged and building a nest egg so that we can afford the marriage, but it doesn't change the fact that it's premarital sex prior to the engagement or marriage. So, in this case, what's the difference?

quote:

Meanwhile, there are plenty of reasons not to have sex before you're married, pregnancy being the obvious one.

Does that reason not apply after marriage? Marriage doesn't fix character flaws or become magic birth control or even provide a loving environment for a child. Married couples apply the same birth control methods after marriage if they don't want kids. Admittedly, going through a divorce is not as bad as getting killed, what gives you the right to put a child you didn't even want through that?

quote:conclusion. many people who try to build a philosophy of why it's ok to have sex when you're not married, are trying to justify in their heads their own weakness. have sex if you must, but your marriage won't be as strong as it could be, and you won't feel as close to your spouse as you could feel.

It's a good point. I just don't see how marriage or abstinence fixes these weaknesses. I don't agree with wanton sex either, but marriage is what, exactly? A religious ritual or the combining of your tax assets... Kinda like Easter is about the Easter rabbit, huh?



quote:Originally posted by henteichicken:

^^^^ YES! finally someone who makes real sense.

Y'know, I'm just going to quote this because I find it highly amusing.

quote:Birth control, when used responsibly (by responsible people) is almost 100% effective. If somebody's incapable of remembering to take a pill every day or put on a condom for sex, they shouldn't be having sex. That's the simple truth.

You are correct that consistent condom/pill usage ideal results in a near-100% effectiveness. But the problem is not the method, it's the user.

http://www.w-cpc.org/sexuality/teens.html

Among sexually active teenage girls aged 12 to 18, 20% of oral contraceptive users became pregnant over a mere six months.

For persons under the age of 18, condoms were found to fail 18.4% of the time after one year of use.

For teens not living together, condoms users experienced an unplanned pregnancy over 14-23% percent of the time over the course of a year.

The fact is birth control methods are pretty solid, but people mess them up, it's human nature, you can say "it won't happen to me" but for 14-23% of teens, it does.



quote:Being attracted to somebody and being sexually compatible with them are two different things - when you get married and start having sex with your girlfriend, what happens when you find out that she's not satisfying you - and don't give me that bull about sex 'not being for pleasure'. If it wasn't for pleasure we wouldn't be able to obtain pleasure from it.

First of all, I have had oral sex, and other simple intimacy (massages, etc) so I really don't expect to not be satisfied by sex when me and my girlfriend get married. And i'm not going to even try to disagree with you that sex isn't pleasurable, but you're logic is pretty questionable. "If Sex wasn't for pleasure..." If i said "Sex is for procreation, if sex wasn't for procreation, you wouldn't get pregnant if you had sex", you'd see something wrong with that, because Sex serves more than one function.

quote:How about divorce?

According to this study:

www.ncfr.org/pdf/PRESS%20RELEAS2.pdf (http://www.ncfr.org/pdf/PRESS%20RELEAS2.pdf)

Women who marry the only man they've had sex with are notably less likely to divorce than women who have had multiple sexual partners. The study also says that premarrital sex has little impact on divorce rate, but it does note the phenomena of a woman who has sex with a man because she thinks he's "the one" and then the relationship doesn't work out, thus making her more likely to have a divorce when she does get married.

Also I seen many statistics saying couples who live together before they are married are between 33 and 50% more likely to divorce.

I've yet to see a proper study saying that abstinence results in a marriage less likely to divorce, but i know they exist in print i just can't find them on the internet. When I do, I'll post it.

quote:If you found out right now that (purely fictional case here) your parter had either lied about sexual parters or gotten raped, do you love her less?

If she'd gotten raped, no, but if she had lied about partners, yes I would break up with her, but mostly because she had lied to me. If she had told me upfront i still would probably break up with her because I want to marry a virgin. According to the study above, if you're marrying the only girl you've had sex with, you'll be less likely to divorce, but if you've both had other sexual partners you will be more likely to divorce.

My personal opinion is that marriage should be a religious ceremony. The state should only give out "civil unions". But that's part of a different conversation. While i believe marriage is a commitment to eachother and God, I think secular people should get married too. Ceremonies are useful in that they give weight to an important event.

theBishop

quote:First of all, I have had oral sex, and other simple intimacy (massages, etc) so I really don't expect to not be satisfied by sex when me and my girlfriend get married.

Dude, oral sex has sex on the end of the phrase for a reason. Because it's sex.

quote:If she had told me upfront i still would probably break up with her because I want to marry a virgin.

So one of the defining qualities of a person is his/her virginity? That's not a personal attack, since most people have something they're looking for, looks, money, etc, but when it comes down to it, it's dependant on one criteria?

quote: According to the study above, if you're marrying the only girl you've had sex with, you'll be less likely to divorce, but if you've both had other sexual partners you will be more likely to divorce.

Same point, different direction. Premarital sex and having multiple partners don't necessarily correlate. The study specifically says that there is no (proven) correlation between premarital sex and divorces.In fact, the first sentence states that premarital sex does not equal a higher risk of divorce. If we were talking about multiple partners and swinging, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but once again, sex and marriage are not the same entity here. Also, the study was based on women's divorce rates. I suspect that the statistics would be different for men, given the cultural values concerning men, Hooters, getting laid and so on so forth.

quote:Also I seen many statistics saying couples who live together before they are married are between 33 and 50% more likely to divorce.

The point of the study that you linked to above is that it disproves older statistics linking cohabitation with divorce. So, use one or the other.

quote:I've yet to see a proper study saying that abstinence results in a marriage less likely to divorce, but i know they exist in print i just can't find them on the internet. When I do, I'll post it.

The only studies I've seen on the subject have been conducted by religious organizations. I'm not buying any study not done by an independent party, but if you can find one, go ahead and post it.

quote:My personal opinion is that marriage should be a religious ceremony. The state should only give out "civil unions". But that's part of a different conversation.

I have a lot to say about that, too, but in another thread, maybe. (If you wish to start on, I'll be glad to discuss this in a non-flame way.)

Personally, I think that premarital sex and divorces are fairly unrelated. See the statistics on Germany (http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:9W8GXqoyJ_wJ:www.socio.ethz.ch/de/diekmann/downloads/kohab.pdf+premarital+sex+germany+statistics&hl=en) and statistics on religion and divorce (http://www.atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html). None of them agree with each other in terms of a religious/chaste outlook on marriage or divorce.

Hypothetically, I could argue that since divorce rates have been decreasing since the 90s, and the approval of premarital sex has been increasing since the 90s, the two are related. It isn't, but correlation's a bitch, ain't she?

quote:Originally posted by theBishop:

http://www.w-cpc.org/sexuality/teens.html



I'd just like to point out to everyone else that this is an organization with an extreme right wing fundamentalist agenda. The info it provides is skewed dramatically toward sending the message that premarital sex is BAD and abortion is BAD. Please take all info on that site with a grain of salt.