Have you ever known someone who you used to be able to be completely, brutally honest with, who you could confide anything in, who would confide anything to you?

Most have.

Have you ever started to love the person, and notice that one of the first casualties is your collective objectivity, your honesty? Notice how you begin to hold your tongue for fear of hurting the other or making him/her jealous? Have you noticed how, even if the relationship DOES work out, you find part of yourself thinking "...I miss when we were just friends, and didn't have these fights/weren't jealous/weren't having sex/weren't so intense about everything, just simple and happy"?

One would logically think that a true friendship that builds into love over the years is the best, surest kind that could ever form. It's not.

It's the WORST. In said scenario, you know both the simple/innocent/fun friendly side, and the convoluted/deep/loving side, and sometimes, you don't know which one you want more. You can try to have it both ways, but you never can.

An example? Both of you, in the past, when you were friends and dating others, would have problems with your date, and would confide in each other and ask for advice, and do great. However, now that YOU two ARE the couple, and when you have problems, you'll want to talk to nobody but your partner about the issue...only you cannot, because your partner IS the issue. You'll feel trapped, unsure, scared, you'll feel you have nobody to talk to who will understand you like your partner/former best friend, but you can talk and be honest no longer.

Moral of the story?

If you're friends with an opposite-sex member (or same..ugh, but I gotta be PC) and you think you might be starting to love her...

BEAT YOUR FEELINGS DOWN WITH A FUCKING STICK AND NEVER, EVER, EVER TALK ABOUT THEM TO YOUR FRIEND!!

One of two things will happen:

-You'll be ok as friends for awhile, until your building love won't be able to remain inside you any longer, and you'll be very sad until you can express them..and when you do, you'll find he/she feels the same way. You'll explore your love and (hopefully) live happily ever after.

-You'll eventually realize that they were just extreme empathy and understanding for someone you connect to and care about; a feeling of person-to-person connection you share with no one else, and you'll realize that this is what you want with him/her, not love. Hell, you'll feel like love is inferior. Friendship does tend to be a holier bond; one that can be as deep or deeper than a romance, and devoid of the jealousy, control over each other's emotions, inexorable hurt (ther'll be pain in any relationship; whether or not you work through it is the question).

Keep your love close, and your true friends closer. And seperate.

No matter what you feel, it will all work itself out for the better in the end; you just have to persevere. Never try to seek that which isn't there, or shouldn't be sought until you're sure.

Don't, or else you'll end up like ME!! (living in a box, injecting cheap, cut-to-shit drugs with a conch shell and some weird car part, living off tacos and watered-down, half-empty soda cups you find in the trash behind Taco Bell; that is, if the stray cat's don't get it first..etc.)

Seriously, though: Don't try to build romance with someone who you've always known as a friend. It will lead to hurt, and much more hurt than just losing a love alone; trust me, because I can say that, having done both, but I'm not the point here. I'm just trying to relate experience, to release you from T3h Matrix0r. Or something.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

-Infrared

EDIT: Oh, and Schraff, I deleted my thread because I was a little embarassed about it, to be honest; not because of what anyone said, but because it was such primal, unreserved, glib, personal, testosterone-fueled vitriol. Maybe it was good insight, but I said some personal shit, and I kind of regretted that, so I axed it.

It was too fucking long, anyway.

Meth is bad.

[This message has been edited by Infrared (edited 05-18-2004).]

I am sorry your relationship did not work out, but I cannot say that I agree that you can never be lovers with your friend. Sure it is different, but not impossible.

I didn't say it was impossible, either, but it's improbable, in my opinion. I guess it could work with the right people, but as far as I've seen, it almost never does. And losing not only the love of your life, but your best friend as well, makes the hurt twice as bad.

Having lots of chicks friends sucks...Some of them are lovable dames, but I never let myself think too much about them, because I know it's the path to emotional ruin and a loss of self and soul.

Or maybe I just give too much when I fall; who knows. Guess I get what I deserve, but, well..it'd be nice if there was someone I could give it to who would cherish it, not cherish it for awhile and then stab it to death.



Fucking women. Sometimes, I REALLY wish I wasn't so disgusted by the idea of dating a man. I'd probably be gay then.

...No, I wouldn't. I love women too much. But I hate them. But I still love 'em. Can't live with, can't live without...And your hand only does so much. Orgasm, yes, but for me, it ain't all about my big beefstick - pleasing the woman and making her crave it is half, if not more, of the fun for me...And it's divine to know that she wants what you give so bad that she'll do anything for you. Nothing like making her do whatever you command before going down on her like she likes.

Biology is cruel. And god damn, I sometimes feel like a perv. But I'm just a man.

...a REALLY horny one.



[This message has been edited by Infrared (edited 05-18-2004).]

... only difference between a friend and a partner is that once you spend enough time with a partner they begin to be a bit like family... you love them desperately, more than you love anyone else, but you pretty much treat 'em like shit. All the politeness is out the window, and if anything you are MORE brutally honest with a lover because you take 'em for granted.

I'm ready to fully disagree here!

But seriously...

I'm the sensitive kind of guy, but to the outside world I'm more like a joker (that's not a mask even, I just don't show the sensitive side too much, protection you know)... So, senisitive = I don't walk up to a girl i don't know, start chatting with her, go on a date... Nop, not me... the relationships i had were ALL with friends, and ALL my ex-girlfriends are really good friends of mine... I just need time to fall in love, and by the time I do, we obiously are friends as well...

except ...

Now recently (around half a year ago) I met this girl, and... I mean... WOW!! Really, it was love at first sight... But I'm kinda of shy... so, I just went over her a lot, and we talked about everything... In a weeks time we were practically best of friends... After 2 weeks i even got over my fear, and I told her how i felt... she felt the same, but!! We were both studying aborad, and she never had fallen in love this fast, but... she wanted to wait a bit... long story short, she was afraid of long distance, started acting a bitch, realised she couldn't be without me, got together... and still are...

Our relationship is based on mutual trust and honesty... if sth bothers you? tell the other... even when sth is about yr other half, we talk it out... We risk getting hurt, and we try not to hurt each other... but that's inevitable, everybody gets hurt sometime... We just deal with it... We are the best of friends, we are a couple, we love each other... Even though it's really tough for the moment... I'm back in Belgium and she's still finishing her year in Ireland... Afterwards she'll go a week to Poland, then come to Belgium, and then I'll -permanently- move to Poland with her, untill she finishes her studies...

btw we are the same age, we both hardly had any relationships before, and even at the age of 22, we were both virgins... Everything in our relationship is new...

I guess I'm lucky, I know I feel like it... and I don't take our love for granted, i mean what are the odds of both meeting each othe in a foreign country, both love at first sight, both so alike in relationships...

Anyhow... my point is...

It depends what kind of person you are... I have no enemies, I know LOADS of people, I can go to a party alone and meet new friends... I live by: respect for everybody, a stranger is a friend i haven't met yet and i try not to judge anyone... is it that weird than, throughout anything to keep yr friends?

some wierd people in the world...

who doesnt talk shit to their friends and say whatever they want? thats the point in being with your friends, you can do what you want, say what you want and not have to hear some whiney little bitch cry about it.

whats so hard about being brutally honest with a female? its not tough, it doesnt make you have feelings. theres a girl who i could probably say just about anything to and she wouldnt get retarded about it. ive known her for years, fucked her plenty of times. i have absolutely zero feelings for her. shes not attractive enough to date, doesnt have the personality to date, but shes alright to have around drinking and dirty in bed. i see no difficulty there.

quote:Originally posted by Infrared:

EDIT: Oh, and Schraff, I deleted my thread because I was a little embarassed about it, to be honest; not because of what anyone said, but because it was such primal, unreserved, glib, personal, testosterone-fueled vitriol.

Which is exactly why it was so fascinating. Men lie to women and vice versa all the time. I always wondered what a man would sound like if he was telling the truth. I had pretty much guessed it wouldn't be what I wanted to hear. But I can understand your decision.

quote: Meth is bad.

No She isn't. You're mistreating Her.

Since I'm being rediculously off-topic anyway, I should tell you that you were in a dream I had Sunday night. I dreamt I was in the kitchen. I had a baking tim with about a 1/4 inch layer of meth at the bottom. I was adding water to make it an injectable solution. Just at that moment, you called. You sounded a bit frantic. You kept asking where the product was.

I looked down and noticed something odd. Instead of the solution being a lovely clear yellow, it was...thickening. A bit like cornstarch in water. I told you that I wasn't sure you'd be able to get this in the needle, since for some reason it was a little thick. The fever pitch in your voice raised one octave. "Look, do we have a deal or not???" You screamed. I shrugged and said that yes, I suppose we do, since you wanted it so badly. Even though it was getting even thicker and turning black, I hung up and started packaging it. At this point it was the consistency of play-dough. I started sculpting your portion into a tiny grim reaper.

Why am I telling you this? Because it is, in my mind, a very clear message. In traditional Tarot, death is a symbol of dramatic change- not necessarily bad, not necessarily good. You cannot go on the way you're going on now. It's an impossibility. Change is inevitable. There are three different paths that you can take:

1) You can realize your limitations and stop doing things you can't handle.

2) (the least likely scenario, based on what I've observed)You will acheive enlightenment and be able to defy your previous limitations in a profound, constructive way.

3) You will do neither of these things and die prematurely.

Which of these three you end up taking is not my concern. If you die, I will not mourn you. I will respect the decision that you have made for yourself.

This is the last time I'm going to try and help you. You're on your own.

***Edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by Schraff (edited 05-18-2004).]

Schraff, you know I like you, but look, I'm not ASKING you for your help, so stop acting as if I'm soliciting it and then refusing it. I said "meth is bad" because I tend to say/post way too much dumb shit on it, not for any other reason. Even if I wanted to mistreat it, there's not enough around here. I've been awake a day and a half on a big IM injection, an average tweak for me, and that's it. I'll likely sleep sometime tonight. So chill, and seriously, stop assuming I don't have my shit together, if you would. It's stirred-up, yes, but still in the same pot.

Wow... Schraff's post was SO onto it that I almost believed he might get through that thick skull of yours, but I see it's as impenetrable as ever.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Wow... Schraff's post was SO onto it that I almost believed he might get through that thick skull of yours, but I see it's as impenetrable as ever.

Yes, Sarc, we all know you're the epitome of the shit-in-line woman, what with your "tell me how to kill myself" pleas, and your complete lack of self-respect, what with the pseudo-relationship that you've settled for, and the way you've handled it so well, as is evident in your constant complaints here on Totse about it. And no, I didn't say I have not done the same thing, but I never elevate myself above someone just because they handled a problem worse than I did, I'm nowhere near that arrogant. Oh, and did you once condemn people who were weak enough to contemplate/attempt suicide, only to turn around and make that Bad Ideas thread? Do I smell a hypocrite?

Sarc, you know I respect you, even though you show me no respect where it's due and take cheap shots like this at me, but don't be a hypocrite. It's unbecoming. And you know, you don't know the half of what Schraff and I have discussed, or the ins and outs of my habits, so stop making assumptions about that which you can't comprehend or aren't privy to.

If your skull were any less-thick than mine, you'd worry about the plank in your own eye before you bitched about the splinter in mine.

You complain about the lack of personal strength in others, but where the hell is yours?

[This message has been edited by Infrared (edited 05-18-2004).]

Mmmm hmm, I seeeee... well, God I'm tempted... very tempted, but most of what you just said reminded me so very much of CarbonB's convoluted (but admittedly very creative) bullshit that I don't think it's even worth my time to tear your response apart piece by pitiful piece.

If you had bothered to get even one fact straight, it would've made such a difference.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 05-18-2004).]

Done schraff.

Infrared, are you really going to try to compare your situation with Sarc's? EVERYONE gets dumped. You just are having a bit harder time dealing with it. I can't believe you reacted like that to her post. All she said was you have a thick skull, and you do. The girl left you. Get over it before you piss off everybody.