Question # Uno:

How do you people feel about abortion? I find it ok to some extent, but other times it's a little extreme. Ok, for example, if a woman was going through pregnancy and went to the doctor and they told her that her baby would turn out to be SEVERELY retarded, deaf, paralyzed, could only live for a couple of years etc., I could probably see abortion there. If the kid can't do anything, then what's there in life for them. I know that every human should have a chance, but really look deep into this. In school, mentally-retarded children are treated way differently then the regular student. I am not trying to mean, ignorant or anything through this whole discussion. Second situation, teen gets pregnant and WOULDNT BE ABLE to support it. I find that on the borderline, because one, it was THEIR (emphasis on the THEIR meaning more then one person) decision to make a stupid mistake and not use protection or use it wrong. But on the other hand, there is always the side of the boyfriend ditches the girl because hes a dumbass and says "I can't deal with that right now" Well, NEITHER CAN SHE BUT SHE HAS TO SO YOU SHOULD TO. This leaves the female with nothing. Tell me how you feel about this. My opinion varies on the different types of situations. And, another thing, the ones against it are usually (not all of them but a portion) are male. How do you even know what it is like? You're the ones ditching us for your own goddamn mistake. And it's not like you'll ever be in our shoes.

quote:Originally posted by InimitableBallerina:

I know that every human should have a chance, but really look deep into this. In school, mentally-retarded children are treated way differently then the regular student.

Decisions shouldn't be made based on the lowest common denominator. In other words, nobody should do anything because of a few rotten assholes -- you're only encouraging them if you do.

That being said, I don't consider a person to be human until they're born. Until the 18th or 19th century, no church did either.

Some say birth is an arbitrary date, since we can keep fetuses alive outside of the mother. But if the mother doesn't want it, why should she be forced to have it? Besides, would you want to be an unwanted child?

Abortion rights are absolutely necessary for women, because it's unfair to make someone care for a child they don't want. Men especially shouldn't be allowed to take this right away from women.

There are a few lively discussions on this and related topics in other forums:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum31/HTML/001647.html http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum31/HTML/001759.html http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum14/HTML/002088.html http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum14/HTML/002104.html http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum14/HTML/002141.html http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/002398.html http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum16/HTML/000019.html

I'll leave this topic here, though I encourage fresh insights as opposed to the same-old-shit arguments that aren't already covered in the above threads.

My opinion: I pretty much follow the liberal left pro-choice line of thought for reasons already argued to death. The only thing I'd add is that women may carefully consider alternatives such as adoption. There are many, many couples who'd like to adopt a baby, and are even willing to cover a woman's expenses while she carries the baby to term. I don't necessarily think this is a better option, but it is an option for those women who have issues with abortion yet aren't ready for the commitment of motherhood.

"I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up." ~Maddox

quote:Originally posted by InimitableBallerina:

And, another thing, the ones against it are usually (not all of them but a portion) are male. How do you even know what it is like? You're the ones ditching us for your own goddamn mistake. And it's not like you'll ever be in our shoes.

And why the hell should I care about the Holocaust? I'm not Jewish. And fuck gay rights; I'm not gay. And what the hell is up with those niggers trying to sit at the front of the bus?

Just because you're not directly affected doesn't mean you can't have an opinion.

My opinion, by the way, is that 1st and 2nd trimester abortions should be totally legal. Only exception would be if the father would be willing to take full custody and raise the kid alone. In that case, I think his will to keep the child should overrule her will to kill it. ...sort of. I'm kind of split on that one. But over all, I'm pro choice

Okay, a serious reply. I don't get all these exceptions and stuff. If the baby is alive, there are no exceptions. We don't murder kids because they are retarded or unwanted. If the fetus is not alive yet, then it is the woman's right to do what she wants with her body. No exceptions again.

Problem is, no one knows when life starts. Sure we make claims to get to the outcome we want, and we judge the motives of the claims we don't like, but you don't know. No one does.

How do I see it? Hmmm...imagin that you see a man lying in the gutter not moving. He could be dead or he could be passed out. Is it okay to shoot him in the head?

Does that mean I judge women who have abortions as immoral? No. What I do see is that people pretend they have knowlege they do not have to make things go the way they want. That is just human and we all do it on lots of issues. This is just one of them. Do what you got to do. You can even pretend you know the truth if you want.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

What I do see is that people pretend they have knowlege they do not have to make things go the way they want.

There is no "knowledge" in this case, since the definition of life is strictly a matter of opinion.

I disagree. There is no knowlege because we do not know when life starts, but not knowing does not make it a matter of opinion. It does have a beginning even if we don't know when it is.

i could care less whether they kill babies or not. infact, i hope they kill a hell of a lot more. however, this idea that women get to control their own body but men dont get to control their own wallet is bullshit. the bitch gets to decide when she wants to fuck, regardless of what the guy wants. the bitch gets to decide whether to kill or keep the bastard kid, regardless of what the guy wants. however, the guy is stuck paying for some bastard he doesnt want if she decides to keep it and hes shit out of luck if she kills a little bastard that he wants.

quote:Originally posted by mrman383:

i could care less whether they kill babies or not. infact, i hope they kill a hell of a lot more. however, this idea that women get to control their own body but men dont get to control their own wallet is bullshit. the bitch gets to decide when she wants to fuck, regardless of what the guy wants. the bitch gets to decide whether to kill or keep the bastard kid, regardless of what the guy wants. however, the guy is stuck paying for some bastard he doesnt want if she decides to keep it and hes shit out of luck if she kills a little bastard that he wants.

^^Keep your dick in your pants. That's the decision you get to make. Or wrap it up. Since you don't have to go through the pain and discomfort of pregnancy and childbirth, or the years of menstrual cycles beforehand, what right do you have? When you push a bowling ball through your ass then you can start having an opinion.

Shut the FUCK UP!

God I hate to hear bitches bitch about fucking giving birth.

You know what slut bag? There would be no babies without men and vise versa. So sorry your a fucking over hormoned female slut.

It has nothing to do with the male species. Take your fucking role in life with open arms and stop rejecting it.

If you don't want to be a women and give birth. DON'T HAVE KIDS. Or have a sex change to become a man.

Enough said.

quote:Originally posted by CarbonB:

Shut the FUCK UP!

God I hate to hear bitches bitch about fucking giving birth.

You know what slut bag? There would be no babies without men and vise versa. So sorry your a fucking over hormoned female slut.

It has nothing to do with the male species. Take your fucking role in life with open arms and stop rejecting it.

If you don't want to be a women and give birth. DON'T HAVE KIDS. Or have a sex change to become a man.

Enough said.

I was wrong. Occasionally you do have something worthwhile to say

quote:Originally posted by GlitterPunk112358:

And why the hell should I care about the Holocaust? I'm not Jewish. And fuck gay rights; I'm not gay. And what the hell is up with those niggers trying to sit at the front of the bus?

Just because you're not directly affected doesn't mean you can't have an opinion.

My opinion, by the way, is that 1st and 2nd trimester abortions should be totally legal. Only exception would be if the father would be willing to take full custody and raise the kid alone. In that case, I think his will to keep the child should overrule her will to kill it. ...sort of. I'm kind of split on that one. But over all, I'm pro choice

the point is that men are making the decision. it's men that run the world, and it's men making the laws. abortion being made illegal means that men made a woman's decision. it's not up to them.

What gender makes the law does not matter. A persons right over their body is an individual right, not a gender right. A woman has no more right than a man to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body.

Oh so you're saying that it would be fair for females to make a law that males HAVE to be circumsied when born, or males HAVE to be de-spermed at a certain age. That's making a personal decision on your body. Your body is not my body, and visa versa. Males shouldn't be trying to make abortion illegal when it's the woman's decision because they don't go through pregnancy and they will never be in our shoes.

quote:Originally posted by gothprincess89:

Oh so you're saying that it would be fair for females to make a law that males HAVE to be circumsied when born, or males HAVE to be de-spermed at a certain age. That's making a personal decision on your body. Your body is not my body, and visa versa. Males shouldn't be trying to make abortion illegal when it's the woman's decision because they don't go through pregnancy and they will never be in our shoes.



So you're saying that it would be fair for a man to pass a law making circumcision mandatory for other men?? You're fucking insane. No one should make laws concerning what other people have to do with their bodies. And, for the most part, no one is trying to. The idea behind abortion laws is not that the men want to control what women do with their bodies. It's that they want to control what women do to other people (the unborn children). Your logic astounds me

quote:Originally posted by gothprincess89:

Oh so you're saying that it would be fair for females to make a law that males HAVE to be circumsied when born, or males HAVE to be de-spermed at a certain age.

No. I am not saying that. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

abortion is a good thing. there are too many people allready. fuckit lets kill all the retards too. but the child support thing is bs.

Individual rights dont' count for shit.

Ask a police officer if he cares what your rights are when he's planting evidence or searching your car illegally without probably cause.

The world is made on laws that cannot be enforced.

Even if abortion was illegal I am sure people could still get it. Gothprincess I don't think has any idea what she is talking about.

Just mindless ramblings, talking about walking in your shoes? Um, alright lady have you ever been to war? So should the goverment be allowed to draft me?

It's my body they are sacrificing on the front lines yet I have no say in it. It's the same thing. Don't talk unless you know what your talking about.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

I disagree. There is no knowlege because we do not know when life starts, but not knowing does not make it a matter of opinion. It does have a beginning even if we don't know when it is.

My point is that the very idea of "life" is simply a word -- a concept invented by humans. Therefore, its exact definition is up to whoever uses it.

^You can think that if you want, but I still disagree. If there is no such thing as life, then there is no real harm in telling women they can't do what they want with their bodies.

quote:Originally posted by gothprincess89:

Oh so you're saying that it would be fair for females to make a law that males HAVE to be circumsied when born, or males HAVE to be de-spermed at a certain age. That's making a personal decision on your body. Your body is not my body, and visa versa. Males shouldn't be trying to make abortion illegal when it's the woman's decision because they don't go through pregnancy and they will never be in our shoes.



your a stupid ass cunt =^)

This is how I see it on abortion.

A person is a person a soon as they are concieved,Just because a 2 year old is in no way as advanced as an adult it does not make them any less of a person therefore a fetus is no less a person than that 2 year old.

A while ago some asked on "how small can something get before it becomes nothing"

I suppose the same can be said about life how basic can it get before its really non existant.In my opinion as soon as it is concieved then that child is meant to be born

and why would it be the mothers choice to not have the baby? In most cases its their actions that cause them to get pregnant.All you guys are saying well what if she cant provide for the child and the baby would be umwanted...All of this is bullshit,has anyone heard of adoption? There are tons of couples who would do anything for a newborn,its no problem to find a good home for a child.

There are three cases where I am pro-abortion:

When the baby threatens the life of the mother.

When the baby is severely physically or mentally handicapped.

And... to some extent, if the pregnancy is the result of a rape, a real rape, not just an "oooh, I got drunk last night, who did I end up fucking?"

Otherwise I'm against abortion.

If you can't afford to have a kid, if you couldn't stand to have a kid, if you just don't want to have a kid with the person you're currently involved with then don't fuck them! It's fairly straightforward. If something bad can happen, it will happen, so you better be prepared for the consequences.

Males have just as much responsibility when it comes to pregnancy as do females, the father should have equal say. Yes it's her body, but she let him cum in her body, therefor giving up her right to 100% choice in the matter, it should be 50/50.

It would be an acceptable alternative if they outlawed abortions and instead made killing babies legal... if you so dislike the idea of having a child that you would be able to end it by your own hand, then fine, go ahead. Put your child in a bucket of acid, stir it up until it's nothing more than fleshy goulash, then put it out with the garbage. Oh, what... you couldn't do that? You couldn't kill a baby? Why, because it's wrong? Well guess what, it's not any more wrong than having a doctor burn and desolve it in salt solution and suck its little pieces out through a hose... ahh the art of rationalism! Humans are fucking sick.

They argue that abortion is fine because until 26 weeks the baby would most likely not survive outside the mother's body, so it is not a 'living' being... so why the FUCK did we bother inventing life support systems? Every time someone has to go on a veltilator to make them breathe we should classify them as dead, even though they still have a 90% chance of survival? They cannot function on their own, therefor they are not living beings? What about people with kidney failure? They depend on dialisis and machines to keep them alive... are they not living beings?

As easy says, it all comes down to when you determine the start point of life to be. I'd rather stay on the safe side and say that life begins at the moment of conception, and I find the scientific evidence that supports that belief to be much stronger than the opposition.

Nawwww, that makes life too hard for you? Too much responsibility? Don't wanna have to deal with the real life consequences of your decisions? Awww poor poor you.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 05-09-2004).]

quote:

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Originally posted by gothprincess89:

Oh so you're saying that it would be fair for females to make a law that males HAVE to be circumsied when born, or males HAVE to be de-spermed at a certain age. That's making a personal decision on your body. Your body is not my body, and visa versa. Males shouldn't be trying to make abortion illegal when it's the woman's decision because they don't go through pregnancy and they will never be in our shoes.

---------------------------------------------

Abortion is not comparable to circumcision or sterilization.Women and men should and do have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies. But with rights come responsibilities.No one,man or woman, is ignorant enough to not understand the possible end result of intercourse.If you are mature enough to be enjoying sex , you should be mature enough to take sufficient precautions to prevent the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy.It is the responsibility of both partners, not just one.Killing an unborn fetus should not be an option for irresponsibility.Both partners are ultimately responsible for their actions.You make your own choices.Once a child is conceived, You are responsible for that life,which even though is inside your body, is a separate living entity.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

^You can think that if you want, but I still disagree. If there is no such thing as life, then there is no real harm in telling women they can't do what they want with their bodies.

Huh? Where did I say there was no such thing as life?

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:



And... to some extent, if the pregnancy is the result of a rape, a real rape, not just an "oooh, I got drunk last night, who did I end up fucking?"

Oh, so it's a human if she meant to fuck him, but the baby isn't human if he raped her? It's the same living being either way. If a poor homeless person breaks into your house and steals your food, should you shoot him? What if you let him in the house, not knowing that he would eat your food? By your logic, you could kill him if he's being an inconvenience that you didn't want, but you can't kill him if you let him in the house. You shouldn't kill the man either way.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:



It would be an acceptable alternative if they outlawed abortions and instead made killing babies legal... if you so dislike the idea of having a child that you would be able to end it by your own hand, then fine, go ahead. Put your child in a bucket of acid, stir it up until it's nothing more than fleshy goulash, then put it out with the garbage. Oh, what... you couldn't do that? You couldn't kill a baby? Why, because it's wrong? Well guess what, it's not any more wrong than having a doctor burn and desolve it in salt solution and suck its little pieces out through a hose... ahh the art of rationalism! Humans are fucking sick.



Would you kill a human? As you've already stated, no you would not. Would you kill an ant? Have you ever swatted a fly? Even if you're against these things, do you feel as strongly about them as you feel about killing a fetus? A fly and a fetus are both living. Only difference is that the fly might have a family of his own and it might actually hurt other beings if you killed him. I don't agree with killing unborn children or killing flies. But I also don't think that it's the most horrible thing you can do. And that fly probably isn't going to fuck over your entire life, so sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I would consider carrying a rape baby to term an endangerment to the mother, a severe blunt-force blow to her psyche.

The fact that it was a rape doesn't change anything about the fact that the baby is alive and well, same with babies that threaten the lives of their mothers, it isn't that the baby is unhealthy, it's that the mother's body simply cannot handle the process.

I don't think most women are emotionally equipped to handle a pregnancy that is the result of a violent rape, it would send most to the crazy house and, to me, that is too big a sacrifice.

... and I don't really follow you on the second point, um... I'll try but I'm not really sure I understand any of what you said.

Am I against killing animals, bugs, flies... I guess, I don't go out of my way to kill anything. I use ant traps to keep ants out of my food, so indirectly I do kill bugs, do I compare that to taking human life? Well, no. I don't think you can compare the value of human life to anything else on earth.

And yeah, you do have to do what you gotta do, and if what you gotta do is keep your legs together until you're prepared for the slight possibility of pregnancy, then I guess that's what you gotta do. Damn, wouldn't life be nice if there were no negative consequences?

quote:But I also don't think that it's the most horrible thing you can do.

So we're just talking about the degree to which abortion is wrong? Like, on a wrongness scale it would rate, maybe a 5 out of 10? I guess I don't see things that way... if something is wrong to any degree I'll be against it.

And babies don't fuck up anyone's entire life, I can tell you from personal experience that this whole pregnancy gig isn't all that harsh. If I wanted my life to continue as it was I could just give the kid up for adoption. There are plenty of young couples out there who are desperate to adopt babies.

To give you some perspective, this is coming from a chick who was brought up to believe that an unmarried girl who gets knocked up is filthy, degenerate, worthless... my coworkers give me a hard time about the fact that I'm knocked up and there's no ring on my finger... I know they don't mean it to be hurtful, and I laugh along with them, but fuck it hurts... I even consider just going out and buying a wedding band to wear so that I don't get overwhelmed with the shame of it... according to the way the world works I should be pro-abortion, I should've rushed out to get one as soon as I found out because handling the situation is fucking hard. But I didn't because I'm not going to be like every other weak woman out there who makes her choices and then doesn't follow through when it comes down to living as best she can with the hard path she's chosen.

The point in comparing a baby to a fly is that at the time of the abortion, the kid is no more than a fly. Now, if you think that killing a human and killing a fly are both wrong and any wrong is totally wrong, your being anti-abortion makes a lot of sense. But if you think it's even a little bit more acceptable to kill a fly than it is to kill a fetus (or even a grown human, for that matter), the argument fails. I guess you could argue that because it will become a human like we are, it is already a human. But at the time when it would be aborted, it's not advanced like we are. It can only feel in very primitive ways

Uh... ok, so I guess I don't get confused between flies and human fetuses...

Like I said, I don't think anyone should compare the value of human life to any other form of life... you're saying a human life is worth no more than that of a fly?

Or are you arguing that life does not begin at conception?

Or are you saying that unless a life has made an impact on someone else then it isn't really worth anything?

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Uh... ok, so I guess I don't get confused between flies and human fetuses...

How do you determine if a mound of flesh is human or not? Do you count the chromosomes or what?

I'd suggest starting off by taking a biology course.

a womans body, a womans choice

plain and simple in my eyes.

exactally. the only liberal policy i agree with.

quote:Originally posted by MrEricSir:



Huh? Where did I say there was no such thing as life?

Here:

quote:Originally posted by MrEricSir:



My point is that the very idea of "life" is simply a word -- a concept invented by humans. Therefore, its exact definition is up to whoever uses it.

It is not simply a word. It is something that exists in reality and has a beginning and end even if we are not able to identify it.

Just because you do not know, that does not mean you can just make it up and be correct.

Actually life is just a word to describe something that everyone has different views on.

I myself believe that if a mother wants to have an abortion that I am fine with it.

Although you come to think about what if the baby that you killed would of been some political leader that revolutionized the world?

It's kinda strange to think about it, but I believe that it still wouldn't matter because the stress of a 13 year old mother ruins her life and the life of the kid.

I don't believe in killing a baby after a certain amount of time, 3 months.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

you're saying a human life is worth no more than that of a fly?



Yes. Life begins at conception, but it's not the life of really anything much more advanced than a fly.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

It is not simply a word. It is something that exists in reality and has a beginning and end even if we are not able to identify it.

You misread my post entirely. I said the CONCEPT of life was invented by humans. In nature there's no difference beween an animal and a rock, it's all part of an interconnected system.

But humans came along and somewhere along the line decided that certain things are "alive" and certain things aren't, and that life is sacred. These are purely conceptual ideas with no basis in reality.

... some of you really should've paid much more attention in school.

...fuck I should say more because that just sounds like a cocky save-face, but I can't help but feel it would be a complete waste of time to say more, not to mention I'm not getting paid to provide you with a highschool level education... but in all seriousness, you're not suffeciently equiped with the basic knowledge needed to engage in this kind of debate.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 05-09-2004).]

Says the women on totse...that is pregnant and has no form of stable income.

^WTF?!?^

I earn $36k per anum doing a piss-easy job I'm completely overqualified for! Where the fuck are you getting your info, dumbass?