I've been dating this girl for a while, and last Saturday night, we kissed for the first time. Anyway, I finally decided to ask her if she considers us together, and she said yes. So far so good. But then she tells me that she isn't comfortable with any kind of PDA. I understand this to a point. I hate seeing people practically make out at school and stuff. But she doesn't even want to hold hands in public or anything, and this really bothers me. I tried talking to her about it a little bit, but I'm really afraid to tell her completely how I feel about it. It's just that nothing really seems to have changed now that we're officially together, and this doesn't seem right to me. When I'm with her, I really want to hold her hand. We went to the mall together, and I saw other couples holding hands, and I just don't understand why I can't hold hers. Aren't couples supposed to do this sort of thing together? It just makes me feel like she really doesn't like me, at least all the time. I don't really feel like I'm her boyfriend. All of this is really bothering me a lot, but I'm afraid to say anything to her because I'm afraid she'll get mad at me. This is the first real girlfriend I've ever had, so I'm terribly frightened of doing something to screw things up. I'm just clueless as to what to do, because I can't stand it if things keep going like they are now.

LOL! This is so classic..

I would tell you what to do, but I don't want to spark world war 3 here again.

Just be cool.

(long reply below ... be warned)

quote:But she doesn't even want to hold hands in public or anything, and this really bothers me.

This is your first girlfriend? I'll let you in on a little secret:

Women know how men work, so unless she's got some kind of crippling disability or is generally unpleasant to be around (i.e. if she's an average woman among those of her age), she's probably got more than one guy vying for her attention and probably gets offers of dates/favors/sex on a daily basis.

If you're the average guy your age, then you probably do the same thing guys your age do -- hope to God that of the thousands of women you might want to date/kiss/fondle/screw, one of them is willing to give you a probationary try at it.

Even if you're her first boyfriend, the situation is the same: She's got (almost) complete control over what goes on in your relationship and I GUARANTEE YOU that it'll be her dumping you and not the other way 'round, should it come to that. This is only because she can easily get a new boyfriend and you can't as easily get a new girlfriend.

It's like people vs. banks -- it's usually the bank's terms or no terms at all.

She doesn't want PDA? Don't do it. If you do, she'll get uncomfortable and probably dump you unless there's a pressing reason why she shouldn't (e.g. if you're Brad Pitt or whoever the fuck is the eligible Hollywood bachelor these days).

quote:It's just that nothing really seems to have changed now that we're officially together, and this doesn't seem right to me.

Nothing changes overnight; Rome wasn't built (or burnt, for that matter) in a day. Just be happy things are progressing at all. If she feels at all pressured to move faster than she is, as above, "she'll get uncomfortable and probably dump you unless there's a pressing reason why she shouldn't."

quote:All of this is really bothering me a lot, but I'm afraid to say anything to her because I'm afraid she'll get mad at me.

Forgive me. I thought, at reading the first bit of your post, that you hadn't a clue; you do have some intuitive knowledge about when to speak up and when not to. I and about the rest of the three billion males on the planet seem to lack that quality. Don't ever lose that sense of trepidation.

quote:This is the first real girlfriend I've ever had, so I'm terribly frightened of doing something to screw things up. I'm just clueless as to what to do, because I can't stand it if things keep going like they are now.

Being clueless is about the only thing first time bf's/gf's are good at. If you're lucky, you'll be viewed as inexperienced rather than inept, and enough people will be willing to give you 2nd chances. As for not being able to stand it -- welcome to the club.

Relationships are just about the only Darwinian thing left on Earth; if you're lucky enough to survive your mistakes, you usually never make them again. Even if she dumps you, so what? It's not like you're old. You'll have another shot at another woman before you know it.

The important thing is that at such a 'young adult' level of experience, it's important to learn things that will serve you later in life. If it weren't for girlfriends, we men would probably never learn things like patience, restraint, empathy/sympathy, manners, and etiquette.

Mr. EasyGoing: I think you should give him some of your (usually) good advice. By the way, YOU didn't start WW2 last time....but you sure WON it!! Love, Venus.

Walk up to her and knee her in the groin, hard. Tell her to hold your hand or else you'll do it again.

Sarc, you are a totally different person now.

Thanks for the kind words, Miss Pretty.

What would I do? Get some confidence!! You have much bigger problems than no PDA's. You are clingy and needy and you don't have enough self esteem to consider your feelings as much as you should.

quote:Originally posted by intergalacticpenguin:

I'm really afraid to tell her completely how I feel about it…afraid to say anything to her because I'm afraid she'll get mad at me…I'm terribly frightened of doing something to screw things up.

Let me tell you something. There is no girl that is attracted to this attitude you have. Maybe that did not sink in, so I am going to say it again. There is no girl that is going to be motivated to fuck you when you are that needy and you keep thinking like this:

quote:Originally posted by intergalacticpenguin:

I'm really afraid to tell her completely how I feel about it…afraid to say anything to her because I'm afraid she'll get mad at me…I'm terribly frightened of doing something to screw things up.

First thing: you need to be able to hang with her without needing more affection than you are getting at the moment. It does not matter if you ask for it or not. If you urgently need some wuvvy duvvy attention, it oozes out in your nonverbal communication and is a big turn off.

You need to have moments when you want less than she does. Sometimes you got to go. Sometimes you don’t want to make out. Sometimes you don’t want to talk about all her problems for hours on end.

But sometimes you make a bold move and get what you want. You have to set it up by not being in “pathetic mode” 24/7. It is really hot when you do it right, and really creepy when you act like you have been.

Naw I'm just bein' funny.

I know. Were you funny before?

FU BIAAATCH!

yer place or mine?

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Walk up to her and knee her in the groin, hard. Tell her to hold your hand or else you'll do it again.

Best damn reply ever!

Seriously though, how old are you? you sound like a 7th grader, that's when I had problems like this. If she won't even let you hold her hand, something's wrong, so ask her about it.

The best relationship is an open relationship. Tell her how you feel, and work something out. Just remember to talk and be courteous.

love your work Easy Going!

What's really sad is that when I read the topic title, my initial reaction was, "What the fuck is his girl's problem with handheld computers?"

<-- hardcore dork

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:

What's really sad is that when I read the topic title, my initial reaction was, "What the fuck is his girl's problem with handheld computers?"

<-- hardcore dork

Hahaha, me too, but then again, it was already known that I was a "hardcore dork".

Yeah I thought that too.

Kill me now...

quote:Originally posted by ATypiCalStuDenT:

love your work Easy Going!

thanks sweetie

haha dude, u sound like this kid phillip and his gf i know, theyve been goin out for like 4 months i guess, and they still stand 2.3 feet apart. but there both shy and maybe thats just in public, they could be fuckin each others brains out for all i know. meh, wat do i care.

solution: be assertive(tap that ass :P ) or reach to hold hands, she might lossen up and like it but she might also pull away... man i wouldnt know wat to do then, probly get her drunk off her face then do her.

just a sugestion, itd work for me but i wouldnt be in that situation.

Blur

[This message has been edited by BackFlip (edited 04-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

(long reply below ... be warned)

Being clueless is about the only thing first time bf's/gf's are good at. If you're lucky, you'll be viewed as inexperienced rather than inept, and enough people will be willing to give you 2nd chances. As for not being able to stand it -- welcome to the club.

Relationships are just about the only Darwinian thing left on Earth; if you're lucky enough to survive your mistakes, you usually never make them again. Even if she dumps you, so what? It's not like you're old. You'll have another shot at another woman before you know it.

The important thing is that at such a 'young adult' level of experience, it's important to learn things that will serve you later in life. If it weren't for girlfriends, we men would probably never learn things like patience, restraint, empathy/sympathy, manners, and etiquette.

You should of actually warned us about the stupidity of this post. I really don't know where to begin.

Women do NOT know how men work. I guarentee you wont find one woman out there who knows what I want, and if you think it's sex, then you are an idiot. These assumptions also piss me off. You don't know if she gets alot of offers or anything, and the fact that she would be keeping herself open WHILE in a relationship, would go to show that she is a slut, and doesn't even deserve to be with this guy.

Since this second paragraph here is so stereotypically based, and stupid.. I have to assume you're female, which I can partially forgive. Regardless, I'll correct you now, guys of "our age" (whatever you may consider that to be) do not fantasize/hope that thousands of women will want them. I dont need to dwell on this idiotic topic.. so we'll go onto the last section here..

Since when can you guarentee anything? He's asking help, and all I see is you telling him he has no control, and will be the one dumped. I'd like to think that I'm not the only one here who would take that offensivley should it be said to me. He has just as much control as she does, all he has to do is talk to her.



Anyways onto you intergalacticpenguin, honestly.. Just talk to her. Be honest. Tell her you don't like having to restrain yourself from holding her hand/kissing her from time to time, and you think it's stupid. Ask her if she's embarrassed. If she gets angry, or tries to continue with that crap, then dump her. She obviously either can't handle honesty, or wants the control/wants to keep her doors open to other guys (slut). Hope that helps. Good Luck.

-[G-Prime]

HA! i was just going to say how great Shiantar's reply was...okay, i WILL say it: it was great! i think that you CAN generalize and sound callous because it's hard and unusual to find something meaningful at that age.

I always admire couples that are intimate when together, but cool in public. But you have to wait for your relationship to warm up that much.

On the other hand, i hate being in relationships that i have absolutely no say in, or control in. I am not at all controlling, but if you're a member, then you should have a say right? And I suppose her reasons for doing it make all the difference- is she just shy of PDA? or embarassed of you? Or just not ready yet to "come out" with your relationship?

i don't know the answer, but i think the ones who told you not to be clingy and to know yourself first are on the right track.

PS heh i also thought she had a thing against palm tops....

quote:Women do NOT know how men work. I guarentee you wont find one woman out there who knows what I want, and if you think it's sex, then you are an idiot.

I didn't necessarily identify sex as one of or the only thing a guy might want from female company -- I said "date / kiss / fondle / screw." I say this because normally at the age where guys & girls get their first bf/gf, they usually don't have any concept of true love and all they're grasping at is recognition and reassurance of their efforts and their desirability -- even a single date can serve well to alleviate some of the anxiety a person feels over those kind of things.

But perhaps I should rephrase -- women don't necessarily know how men work, but at the very least they know that the game's rules are stacked in their favor, even if it's only because women mature with a 2-year

lead on men.

quote:These assumptions also piss me off. You don't know if she gets alot of offers or anything, and the fact that she would be keeping herself open WHILE in a relationship, would go to show that she is a slut, and doesn't even deserve to be with this guy.

Who said she was keeping herself open? I merely stated that she probably gets a lot of offers. A single women gets offers, and a woman with a partner get offers especially when her partner's not around. They're not necessarily overt like, "Did you want to go out this evening?" Frankly, I can't even begin to imagine how women can handle having all these offers without having set up a call centre to manage them.

As for 'playing the field' when doing non-serious dating, it's been done since the Renaissance. Although, granted, we don't see much of escorts or chaperones these days.

quote:Since this second paragraph here is so stereotypically based, and stupid.. I have to assume you're female, which I can partially forgive.

You've never had right or cause to forgive me anything ... and I happen to be male. You must've missed the clues to that fact which were elsewhere in the post.

quote: (...)guys of "our age" (whatever you may consider that to be) do not fantasize/hope that thousands of women will want them.

Read the post more carefully ... I said "of the thousands of women (...) one." Usually, we only ever get one shot at a time, and it's startlingly like handing out résumés while trying to get a job -- feedback is surprisingly scant for the kind of recognition and reassurance we're looking for under different but similar circumstances.

quote:He's asking help, and all I see is you telling him he has no control, and will be the one dumped.

To this day, I have yet to find a guy besides my sister's bf who's only ever been with one woman. I suppose, to be fair, there are exceptional cases where you can get it right on the first go.

But let's be honest here -- in a first relationship, where one or both parties are inexperienced as to what dating means, what relationships should be founded on, what (im)proper conduct between two people of young age should(n't) be, and given the fact that already there's friction in the relationship that was described, I can't say I'm optimistic about the relationship lasting.

Will he break up with her? I doubt it, since he seems to like her a lot. If he was to get fed up with her and initiate the breakup, I'd commend him for having the balls to do what most young men his age don't.

But so long as he learns from his relationships and his breakups (and, btw, I believe that both are necessary for emotional health, sensations to the contrary notwithstanding in the latter case), he'll soon get the hang of it -- from what I've observed so far he's an articulate and sensitive young man and those are qualities which, especially in his middle adulthood, will serve him much better than shallow qualities which might get other guys his age all the dates they need, in the short term.

Thanks for every ones help, especially G Prime and Shiantar, although I find it interesting that I found their comments to be the most helpful even though they kind of disagreed with each other.

Break her into it easy. Sex in public places, starting with libraries.

Shiantar, you do a decent job of describing things how they are at first (I agree with most of it), but your conclusions and advice are just terrible. Sure women have the advantage at first because the guy have more urgent desires, but guys acquiescing to this basic power is just boring to them. You can move past it, but not if you resign yourself to feeling like this:

quote:Originally posted by intergalacticpenguin:

I'm really afraid to tell her completely how I feel about it…afraid to say anything to her because I'm afraid she'll get mad at me…I'm terribly frightened of doing something to screw things up.

You would be very surprised at the number of women that would just love a man to take control. They will never just give it to you, and they often won’t tell you they want that, but if you do it right, they will not even notice all the other offers they get all the time.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

(...)Sure women have the advantage at first because the guy have more urgent desires, but guys acquiescing to this basic power is just boring to them.(...)

Well, if a guy wants to step beyond what his sense of hesitancy says he shouldn't do ... by all means, he can do so by saying things like, "I really think we should kiss in public," or "I don't care if you are afraid of PDA -- I want to express myself," or "Too bad."

The problem is that relationships between men and women don't exist in a vacuum. Guys talk amongst themselves about women, and women talk amongst themselves about guys. And, if I were in a position where I hadn't yet developed a reputation among women as a nice but shy guy yet, I wouldn't want to do any of those assertive things above and risk getting labeled weird, creepy, or a pervert.

I understand a lot of women like it when a guy takes charge, but misunderstandings can happen and reputations can suffer as a result.

Alright Shiantar, since you've so politely broken down your topic, I'll take this oppourtunity to appologize if I over-reacted a bit. I was pissed off earlier today (family problems) and I just didn't like how is sounded to me. Anyways, yes, to the majority of women vs men, they gain a 2 year head start on maturity, although I for one am not an example of that. Actually i hate my school because most the females in there are stupid and day dreamy.

PS: If you need to ask the question about my school/grade, I'm in 11th grade. Not some ignorant little 8th grader

-[G-Prime]

edit, this is in response to shiantar's last post

I did not say he should start telling her what to do. I gave my advice already. I think his problems lie beneath the issues expressed in the first post, and he needs to solve them first.

However, reading your first post made me think that you are advising him to concede every "battle" to women for fear of losing them because they hold all the cards. If that is what you are advising, then that is terrible advice.



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 04-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

"All of this is really bothering me a lot, but I'm afraid to say anything to her because I'm afraid she'll get mad at me."

Forgive me. I thought, at reading the first bit of your post, that you hadn't a clue; you do have some intuitive knowledge about when to speak up and when not to. I and about the rest of the three billion males on the planet seem to lack that quality. Don't ever lose that sense of trepidation.



This is the advise I was talking about above.



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 04-30-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

However, reading your first post made me think that you are advising him to concede every "battle" to women for fear of losing them because they hold all the cards. If that is what you are advising, then that is terrible advice.

Perhaps I should qualify what I admit is a rather one-sided statement for me to make. It's a fine line we walk, we men. We wear two faces -- one around other guys and one around women, for the most part. On the one hand we need to exude those qualities that women find attractive, but on the other hand, without exuding them so much that women think we're oversexed or chauvinistic or weird or creepy or perverted or whatever.

And then there's the bit where if we're a little too sensitive or a little too affectionate or a little too considerate, we've got other guys calling us a fairy or a faggot behind our backs and cutting us down to the point where women would be embarrassed to give us a first crack at it.

All this at a time in our lives when we're arguably the most emotionally vulnerable because we need the validation and reassurance that recognition by the opposite sex gives us. The alternative is to begin thinking that we'll never have a girlfriend, never get laid, and never find true love. If that's what the future looks like, why bother?

G-Prime mentioned that he's in Grade 11 -- I was a year older than that before I got my first date. And yes, I was deathly afraid that I was going to spend the rest of my life single when that relationship only lasted two weeks and I got dumped when I was being 'too clingy' for her tastes.

And it's not like some adolescents and young adults aren't borderline mentally ill without having this crap going on at the same time. People start doing drugs, people start engaging in self-destructive behavior, and some people kill themselves.

An interesting formula that psychologists have come up with is as follows: Conformity, Empathy, Individuality.

First, for the sake of appearances, you need to conform (even if you don't want to) in order to properly align your appearance/interests/actions with what people are expecting -- this way they begin to open up to you.

Second comes empathy, where you need to be sufficiently interested in what other people are thinking and what they want out of life so that you can discuss it in a meaningful fashion with them and thus begin to cultivate a friendship.

Finally comes individuality, whereupon you can feel secure enough to begin to express your inner feelings and attitudes without necessarily feeling like you'll alienate people or offend their sensibilities -- at this point they should begin to accept your right to be different based on your efforts so far.

For someone in a first relationship and not necessarily having sufficient friends on both sides of the gender gap, I'd suggest -- suggest, mind you -- that conformity might be a good place to start, and in the case of intergalacticpenguin I'd say that this kinda precludes PDA until the relationship builds a little more.

Still, apologies all around if I've offended anybody. I can only call it like I see it, but if I've got blinders on (and how woul I know?) then perhaps my advice isn't the best.

quote:Originally posted by Shiantar:

Perhaps I should qualify what I admit is a rather one-sided statement for me to make. It's a fine line we walk, we men. We wear two faces -- one around other guys and one around women, for the most part. On the one hand we need to exude those qualities that women find attractive, but on the other hand, without exuding them so much that women think we're oversexed or chauvinistic or weird or creepy or perverted or whatever.

And then there's the bit where if we're a little too sensitive or a little too affectionate or a little too considerate, we've got other guys calling us a fairy or a faggot behind our backs and cutting us down to the point where women would be embarrassed to give us a first crack at it.

All this at a time in our lives when we're arguably the most emotionally vulnerable because we need the validation and reassurance that recognition by the opposite sex gives us. The alternative is to begin thinking that we'll never have a girlfriend, never get laid, and never find true love. If that's what the future looks like, why bother?

G-Prime mentioned that he's in Grade 11 -- I was a year older than that before I got my first date. And yes, I was deathly afraid that I was going to spend the rest of my life single when that relationship only lasted two weeks and I got dumped when I was being 'too clingy' for her tastes.

And it's not like some adolescents and young adults aren't borderline mentally ill without having this crap going on at the same time. People start doing drugs, people start engaging in self-destructive behavior, and some people kill themselves.

An interesting formula that psychologists have come up with is as follows: Conformity, Empathy, Individuality.

First, for the sake of appearances, you need to conform (even if you don't want to) in order to properly align your appearance/interests/actions with what people are expecting -- this way they begin to open up to you.

Second comes empathy, where you need to be sufficiently interested in what other people are thinking and what they want out of life so that you can discuss it in a meaningful fashion with them and thus begin to cultivate a friendship.

Finally comes individuality, whereupon you can feel secure enough to begin to express your inner feelings and attitudes without necessarily feeling like you'll alienate people or offend their sensibilities -- at this point they should begin to accept your right to be different based on your efforts so far.

For someone in a first relationship and not necessarily having sufficient friends on both sides of the gender gap, I'd suggest -- suggest, mind you -- that conformity might be a good place to start, and in the case of intergalacticpenguin I'd say that this kinda precludes PDA until the relationship builds a little more.

Still, apologies all around if I've offended anybody. I can only call it like I see it, but if I've got blinders on (and how woul I know?) then perhaps my advice isn't the best.

Hm.. Well Your advice is good.. no doubt of that.. but It could use some clarification sometimes. Regardless I just wanted to state that I don't wear two faces. Amittedly, I used to, as with most that I know, but now I'm brutally honest with everyone I know, therefore eliminating any need of that. And no it doesn't scare off girls. I have a girlfriend and she loves my honesty. Our aniversary of 6 months (ch.. women) will be in a couple weeks, so I guess It works for me

Okay Shiantar, let me see if I understand your point. Basically you are saying that the dude probably does not have the game yet to pull off being assertive?

If so, I agree.

However, I still feel that your advice only reinforces his incorrect preconceived notions about the nature of relationships and the limits on him. If someone his age can realize the devastating affect his attitude has, they would be so far ahead of the game. I don’t expect him to read my post and turn into Don Juan. I just want to shine light on issues that before he did not even realize existed. If he can at least have an intellectual knowledge of how he is, how he could be, and what the effects of each are; he can take steps to evolve into a more effective lover. All I am doing is showing him a path that would take years for him to discover on his own. He still needs to learn how to walk it himself and he will have his failure on the way. My take on your advice was that he would just be more comfortable with his problems, but he would still be no closer to solving them. In fact, it almost seems like he would have more reason to think a solution is not possible.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

You need to have moments when you want less than she does. Sometimes you got to go. Sometimes you don’t want to make out. Sometimes you don’t want to talk about all her problems for hours on end.



This is all you need. If she sees you are not just hers an hers alone, waiting to call on her demands as she pleases, you will have much greater success in obtaining more respect from her, which will be te foundation of more affection and PDA.

You need to ge your self esteem onto the same level as hers, or at least act that way. Sometimes you have stuff to do (don't be too apologetic etc) that doesn't concern her, and you can't be there for her as she chooses. Re-read the quote, remember it, and apply it. Even if you have to fake it sometimes.

i'll bet if you bought her a PDA of her own she wouldnt have a problem anymore.