In a relationship, do you define honesty as not keeping any secrets what-so-ever, or as just not lying? I tend to think it's the former, simply because keeping secrets, to me, is deceit, therefore it isn't being honest. But sometimes being honest seems to set you up for heartbreak and dissapointment.

I don't think I'll ever be able to find someone as honest as me. I literally have no secrets, which prevents me from gaining the trust of most girls because they feel they don't have anything on me to exploit if I ever told one of their secrets.

It also makes it hard to make conversation with new girls because I guess some thingsgirls just DONT WANT TO KNOW about someone they just met. I think most girls don't like people that are this honest because they don't want to be honest them selves.

I would define it as simply not lying, there are a few secrets i have mainly regarding my past that i don't want my current G/F to know but say if she was to ask me about them i wouldn't lie.

quote:Originally posted by ChubZero:

In a relationship, do you define honesty as not keeping any secrets what-so-ever, or as just not lying? I tend to think it's the former, simply because keeping secrets, to me, is deceit, therefore it isn't being honest. But sometimes being honest seems to set you up for heartbreak and dissapointment.

I don't think I'll ever be able to find someone as honest as me. I literally have no secrets, which prevents me from gaining the trust of most girls because they feel they don't have anything on me to exploit if I ever told one of their secrets.

It also makes it hard to make conversation with new girls because I guess some thingsgirls just DONT WANT TO KNOW about someone they just met. I think most girls don't like people that are this honest because they don't want to be honest them selves.

its not lying, until your girl says "are you keeping something from me?", even one time, for whatever reason. Then not telling her is lying too. I suggest you tell her evertyhing.

It's always been my opinion that you should share everything with your partner. I don't mean right off the bat, but once you've developed a trusting loving relationship with someone I believe they deserve to know everything about you.

Of course, I also believe that it's unhealthy to be ashamed of your past, even mistakes. We all make mistakes, and we learn from them, and most of the time we become better people. I would only be ashamed of not learning the lessons from my mistakes.

And I also believe that as a partner you should be particularly understanding and accepting. You shouldn't ever hold your partner's past against them, it's in the past for a good reason. Also, if you want to have that kind of open trusting relationship you have to be easy to talk to, approachable, trustworthy. You have to be the kind of person they feel comfortable sharing all of their secrets with.

Just as an example, before I gave my virginity to my previous partner he had told me that he had only slept with 3 girls, all serious long-term girlfriends, and he had assured me that sex was a very special thing to him. I didn't find out until a month later that the truth was he had slept with at least 14 other girls, most of them one-night stands. The reason he lied to me, he said, was because he considered them all mistakes and was ashamed of it. I was heartbroken... not that he had had so many partners, or even that they were sleazy one nighters... but that he had lied to me about it, that he hadn't trusted me with the truth. That's what hurt the most.

I usually find that the value someone attaches to total honesty and disclosure tends to increase with their insecurity. Some things should not be said. More things should not be said early in a relationship. Some things should be lied about if they come up. And yes, in some cases you may be just fine lying to yourself.

There was a thread recently where some guy told his girl that he would not be going out with her if she were fat. Everyone came down pretty hard on the poor dumb ass. The fact of the matter is that we all judge appearance, even the girl that was too insecure to deal with that comment. The last thing you should be telling your girl is that the reason you are with her and not with the hottest girl in school is because Miss Popular does not like you enough to go out with you and treat you well, so you are settling for her. You can even lie to yourself about that one if you want.

As far as complete disclosure goes, try telling your girl every time she acts like a bitch, does not make sense, or everything you really think about all her friends and family. Part of your responsibility in a relationship is not doing that. Accepting people as they are and not calling them out on everything is what you are supposed to do. No one wants to date someone with diarrhea of the mouth. However, if you tell an insecure significant other that you are not 100% open and honest they may not be able to handle it. They also do not have a good grasp on reality.



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 02-04-2004).]

I guess it depends on what kind of relationship you want with someone.

Once a person experiences a relationship where honesty and trust create a healthy bond, it's impossible to go back to accepting someone who's secretive and deceptive. That creates a barrier in the relationship that can't be passed. To say someone is insecure if they can't handle deception is a bit extreme. Not everyone gets off on playing games. Some people prefer to get past that and enjoy the deeper connections of a healthy relationship.

I can't imagine that a sane, reasonable person would be "secure" with a partner's deceptive tendencies. Any rational human would be uncomfortably off-balance, wondering if his/her partner is lying about anything and everything. Such a "relationship" is fraught with petty arguments and mind games. Some people like that, but this only means they're capable (and enjoy) dishing it out, not taking it. Such people will deliberately seek out someone trusting, for the purpose of getting away with deceiving them.

I don't consider "omission" to be lying. Not everything can be said on the outset, and it doesn't even occur to some people to mention certain things unless they're brought up in conversation.

Personally, I agree with Easy, on most things anyway. I am a very honest person and I think that the more that you feel that you have to hide a certain something from a partner, the more important it is that you tell them.

Of course that doesn't mean telling your partner that they are fat or that they have ugly toes or that their new haircut sucks. There's a difference between honesty and rudeness.

Either way, honesty is good. Period.

P.S. Deffinition of honesty: unknown...

I think Cindy and I are talking about different things, but I’m not sure. Let me see if I can clarify my position. I believe honesty is very important to a relationship. However, I believe that when people talk about “total honesty” or “total disclosure” they apply that principle to areas it should not apply to. And I believe that if someone freaks out because he/she finds out that their significant other was just being kind when they complimented or avoided an insult, and they think that means they cannot trust that person, that over reaction is rooted in insecurity.

A parent does not tell their kid everything. Some topics are avoided, and some are “lied” about, for good reason too. There is a difference between a parent making up something to avoid telling their 6 year old that uncle Bob is leaving aunt Mary because Mary is a cheating whore, and a parent telling their kids that she cannot afford piano lessons if that is not a valid reason. There are also harmless lies (Santa) and harmful lies (your daddy is not coming for visitation this week because he does not love you).

How do you tell the difference? Common sense. If the lie is something that helps the relationship, and does not cause harm, and being honest has no benefit other than honesty itself and will cause harm, then use common sense. Those who see someone who lies in those cases as someone they can never trust; they are paranoid and insecure and have no real grasp of reality.

There is a difference between that and games etc. I do think that honesty is important to a real relationship.



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 02-04-2004).]

Uhhhh... insecurity is the reason people lie.

If I ask my partner the question "How do I look" and I look like shit, I want to know that I look like shit, so that I can fix it! He better not lie and feed me some fake compliment, I'm not asking because I want to be complimented, I'm asking because I want to make sure I don't look like a retard before I step out the front door.

When you know someone well enough, and long enough, especially if you live them, you're going to see them at their absolute worst, it's inevitable. Once you've seen someone at their worst and they know it, you just can't pass off lies anymore. You have to get real because both of you just know better.

If I were insecure then I couldn't handle the truth, and if we didn't have a certain level of trust between us then I might be hurt by his honesty.

I can tell my ex that his haircut looks like shit, and that's not rude. He isn't hurt by my honesty, he doesn't consider it rude, he just takes it for what it is, the honest truth. He knows it doesn't make him a horrible deformed ogre just because a chick hacked his hair to pieces. He knows it doesn't change the way I see him, it's just a bloody haircut.

As my tummy gets bigger and bigger I ask him if it turns him off, and god I hope he's not lying because I'm really curious to know the true answer. I certainly don't feel sexy anymore, and I want to know how he really sees me now. What good is a lie going to do me? If he says "yeah, it turns me off" my feelings won't be hurt because it's only the truth, and it's how I feel anyway. If he tells me it doesn't turn him off, but his actions say otherwise then I'll know he was just lying and I'll probably feel much worse about the fact that he doesn't think I can handle the truth.

Sometimes I've asked his opinion of something, like an outfit I thought looked good, and he has responded negatively. Instead of being hurt, or changing my mind about the outfit looking good I just ask his reasoning. If he gives a good reason why the outfit looks bad, one I hadn't considered, then I'm likely to think twice. But most of te time I just stick to my own opinion, regardless of his.

Also, I would want to know if someone thinks they can do better than me, if they think they're 'settling' for me. I wouldn't ever 'settle' but if I ended up in a relationship where I started to feel like maybe I was beginning to settle for less than what I started with I'd be perfectly honest about it.

If a guy thinks he can do better, then he's not going to treat me very well. It's not fair to me, and it's really not fair to him either because he'll never feel like he has the best girl there is. You should always feel that you've ended up with 1st place prize with your longterm partner, otherwise just what the hell are you doing!?! You'll never be happy.

I guess maybe you're talking about young dating relationships, whereas I'm refering to long-term relationships that aim toward marriage.

I guess it's ok to fib around when you're casually dating someone. If you have no intention of them being your long-term partner and you're just experimenting and learning the dating game then sure, get away with what you can, it's all about learning. Trust levels in those kinds of relationships just aren't high enough to warrant total honesty.

But when it comes to the person you plan on spending the rest of your life with, they should be the one person in the world you tell everything to, without worrying about losing them or what they're going to think of you or any of that other kid stuff. If you have chosen the right person then there souldn't be anything too big for them to handle. That's the ultimate level of security.

There's just nothing insecure about being confident enough to open up everything to someone.



By the way, there is a world of difference betwen a parent/child relationship and a lover/lover relationship. Yes, there are certain things you can't tell a child because they're just too young to cope or understand. Adult relationships are more make it or break it. We have to cope or else it's all over.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 02-04-2004).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Uhhhh... insecurity is the reason people lie.



That is very true for the harmful lies. Actually realizing this is what has allowed me to not take getting lied to or played so personally.



quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

There's just nothing insecure about being confident enough to open up everything to someone.

No, it is not insecure, but it still may not be the right call. What I said was insecure is someone who needs total honesty or they start second guessing everything. If a wife tells her husband, “not tonight, I have a headache” he can read, “I don’t feel like fucking you tonight.” It is often better that she does not say it so directly, but I guess once in a while may be a good thing. What would be insecure is if the husband starts thinking, “I don’t think she really has a headache. I am her husband!! Why is she lying to me? What else does she lie about? Is she cheating on me? Does she really love me? I can’t believe we are living a lie.” etc. etc. Even if you could have handled the truth or even if you preferred it, if you have security in your relationship, you will not allow a “white lie” to unravel your faith in your partner’s honesty and feelings about you.

In addition, I disagree that you always want the truth or should always get it. Maybe your appearance when you are going out is something you want to hear. Maybe your issue is something different. Maybe it is just timing. Some women (lots) (ummm I mean most) go thru little tirades from time to time when we have to just “yes” you till you settle the fuck down. Just a favor us men do for ya. You should appreciate it.

You're not doing women any favors by playing their little fishing for compliments games.

One of the reasons why certain women still are the way they are today is because men like you coddle and baby them, telling them what they want to hear instead of just saying straight up "Yeah, you COULD stand to lose a few pounds." Women need a bit of a wake-up to reality don't you think? I think it'd be good for them.

And that whole headache lie, god that is such a pathetic joke. You shouldn't have to pull that shit with your lover. Your partner deserves to know you're not interested in making love to them and they deserve to know WHY as well. Denial of sex is just one of those things I get really pissed off about, probably because I wouldn't deny sex unless I really did have a good reason, like a really achy body or something. That whole "I just don't feel like it" bullshit is weeeeak.

If you have a headache, fine.

If you're just too tired, fine.

If you're pissed off with them but don't want to get into it, fine.

If you no longer find them sexually appealing, fine... but for the love of god just be HONEST about whatever it is. You owe them that much.

Well Sarc, in my experience, if you are 100% honest all the time with all women, you won't do as well as you would by just using your judgment. I have been honest with girls in all the examples you gave (I think) but not all the times. I have used the line "you could lose a pound or two" but I did it when I would not have gotten slapped. And as much as I would love to end games with honesty, I have found that only feeds a woman bent on playing them. And, I have had some success beating them at their own game. If you really are a women who can handle complete openness and honesty all the time, more power to you. But I have found that most women think they can, but they really can't. I don't date guys, but I would imagine the same would be true for them. It is hard for me to say that there are some things I can't handle my girl telling me, but at the same time I don't want to presume too much.

I will however stand by my assertion though that even if you can handle everything, you need to be able to take a white lie as it is intended and not raise character issues out of them. There is a huge difference between a white lie and a malicious lie and even if you don't like white lies, the inability to tell the difference is still rooted in insecurity.



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 02-05-2004).]

Very good question you pose...

And very good answers from Easy Going and deadlycindy.

If I were to try to add more I'd just be reiterating what has already been said, so I'll leave it alone.. just wanted to reaffirm some good responses.

-Extant

I'd have to say that Sarc and E-going and everyone else had valid points. This goes to show that "honesty in relationships" is a complicated principle/ideal/myth.

I definitely agree with Sarc in that I want to know if I've made a hideous judgement error in choice of outfit, hair color or whatever.

Honesty... my greatest enemy. I tend to do so many stupid things, that in relationships, lying is my only hope of survival. Yes, I know, I'm an idiot. Could just stop being a dumbass, but how much fun would THAT be?

In my opinion, little white lies are fine. And if it's necessary to lie in order to save a relationship, and you are 100% positive that they won't find out, fine, go ahead. My opinion may not be all that relevant though, seeing as how most of my relationships have been a catastrophe. God I hate boys...

Dammit, I hate when a good thread starts and goes through all the smart arguments in less than 24 hours, before I ever see it.

If there's anything I can add, maybe this is it- there's a difference between "honesty" and "total disclosure", sure, but there are also levels of "total". Telling someone *everything* is dumb, because much of what there is to tell is often pointless to say. Being forthright at the proper time with shit that either is relevant or may easily become relevant is different.

And, speaking of honesty, let's have a little more: You can get away unscathed with damn near any truth if you say it right.

honesty = good.

plain and simple.

you've all basically said what i could say, agree with Easy Going, deadlycindy and Sarcophagus mostly in general.

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:

And, speaking of honesty, let's have a little more: You can get away unscathed with damn near any truth if you say it right.

That is very true. I will add the timing factor though. Sometimes it is just not the right time. The further along your relationship is and the better your communication skills, the more often you can use this principle.