I could go on about this for a while.. and i think i will. Awhile back i met a very spicy female on a news group.. well we got to talking on online... and we seemed to feel the same for eachother..BTW she is married, and has a few kidos..... well last night/night before last.. we met.. and she was very beautiful, She was a tad more nervous than I. well we got to talking.. 20 min later or so.. we go back to her 'car' and i attempt to pull the seat back.. but i cannot find the lever.. as its complete darkness.. well she leans over across my lap (I was feeling it when she leaned over, but i kept that to myself) well we figure on its on the left side.. after a few min. i start to make my move.. we start to kiss.. well she dives on me.. as i fall back to my seat she straddles my seat.. with her legs around mine.. kinda grinding me.. i was getting hard.. we kissed.. forever,, and held eachother.. she is amazing... and she also knows about totse.. and she will soon be a regular... well as much as a female poster can be on totse. Her name is babygz and soon we will be having our second date.. i will keep you updated.

BTW you guys know I am 19?

haha...and now you've got a problem..... maybe you don't realize it yet.. but datin a 16 year older woman at your age, especially when your your age, will cause, uhm, yes, problems.. and loads of them.. but good luck... and have fun while it still is

Wow qwerty that was an erotic story...

mmm, fun you must have. but beware, an older woman who seeks a man as young as you for sex is probably not going to keep it going for too long. whatever you do, dont let the kids know! oh, wont somebody think of the children?!?

O_O

Thats all i think needs to be said.

Good call.. More happened.. But I minimized the story for a few reasons.. What type of problems could it cause? As we try to keep things simple, and smooth, all while trying to keep our emotions in check. Her kids know we talk online. She is playing it off with her family that I am just an internet guy and she wouldn't do such a thing.

Well thats all untill the next update.



(I know she gets a kick out of reading these type of posts..)

*claps*

Thats so hot.

quote:Originally posted by Yoda's_Left_Nut:

mmm, fun you must have. but beware, an older woman who seeks a man as young as you for sex is probably not going to keep it going for too long. whatever you do, dont let the kids know! oh, wont somebody think of the children?!?

Actually, i didn't go "looking for sex", we haven't even had sex. We just met by chance online, started talking, and this thing sort of hit us both by surprise. But i can see how it would look like that if you don't know all the details. And you're right Qwerty, i do love reading these posts!

I hope she drops dead... no good mother risks causing her kids this much pain just to satisfy her own selfish desires... like I said I hope she dies a horrible death... that fuckin dirty whore doesn't deserve to look into the eyes of her poor kids after making a decision like that.

Well now, two individuals in their respective "sexual peaks." Nothing but good times can come of this.

Bon appetit!

Edit: Just saw Sarc's post, oh dear. While I choose to be single and unburdened by children since my choices in life are not currently consistent with family matters, others make different choices.

Geez, Sarc, a 35-year old woman is still very human and thus sexual, and this little affair might give her the boost she needs to be a better mother and wife. As long as she's there when the kids need her, what's the harm?

[This message has been edited by deadlycindy (edited 09-21-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

Geez, Sarc, a 35-year old woman is still very human and thus sexual, and this little affair might give her the boost she needs to be a better mother and wife. As long as she's there when the kids need her, what's the harm?

Exactly.

If her family found out, what would happen? I agree with Cindy, but I also agree with Sarc. It's understandable, but that doesn't mean it's not selfish.

I know the harm from first hand experience... I WAS the child once... it fucking hurts like all hell and it makes your insides burn like they're on fire...

I've never felt a greater anger, pain, hatred, sense of betrayal, shame and contempt for a person than I did when I found out that my mother was unfaithful... it took 6 years for me to rebuild my ability to trust anyone...

When you don't have kids you're free to live your life as you please, your relationship choices effect you and one other person, and you're both adults... adults can handle that shit... kids SHOULDN'T HAVE TO! When children are involved the potential damage is just too great to risk... When you're a parent you learn to put your CHILDREN first and find another way to get your fuckin' jollies.

Regardless of age, they could be 18 for all it matters, when those kids find out that mommy is a whore their whole world will colapse in on top of them... and you won't even see it... it will all happen deep inside them, their innocense, sense of right vs. wrong, trust, self-confidence, security, and respect for their parents will crumble. THAT is the harm!

I hope the whore's husband finds out and beats the fuck out of you with a baseball bat, you piece of shit.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

... When you're a parent you learn to put your CHILDREN first and find another way to get your fuckin' jollies.



Shoulda, woulda coulda...

Life's too complicated. People are hopelessly human. Sometimes having affairs to get one's jollies is the LESSER of two evils.

Trust issues are not to be taken lightly, so I don't belittle that. But there are worse things, such as abuse and abandonment.

Oh yes, and it's onnly fitting if the husband divorces the broad, take the kids, and leaves her to spend the rest of her days with you.

That's what I'd do, at least.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

I hope the whore's husband finds out and beats the fuck out of you with a baseball bat, you piece of shit.



Kikey, go have a club sandwich, a beer and watch Real Genius again. You'll feel better.

quote:Originally posted by qwerty316:

Exactly.

Shut the fuck up.

You're looking to justify it to yourself, and as such, have no right to say a goddamn thing.

Now, look. If you didn't know she was married, I wouldn't blame you. I'd blame the whore alone.

But, you knew she was married. You knew she had kids and a husband. This slut obviously doesn't care about such things and conventions, but you should have respected that.

I dunno, maybe you're too pathetic to get girls your own age. But surely you could find another older, unmarried whore.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

I know the harm from first hand experience... I WAS the child once... it fucking hurts like all hell and it makes your insides burn like they're on fire...

I've never felt a greater anger, pain, hatred, sense of betrayal, shame and contempt for a person than I did when I found out that my mother was unfaithful... it took 6 years for me to rebuild my ability to trust anyone...

When you don't have kids you're free to live your life as you please, your relationship choices effect you and one other person, and you're both adults... adults can handle that shit... kids SHOULDN'T HAVE TO! When children are involved the potential damage is just too great to risk... When you're a parent you learn to put your CHILDREN first and find another way to get your fuckin' jollies.

Regardless of age, they could be 18 for all it matters, when those kids find out that mommy is a whore their whole world will colapse in on top of them... and you won't even see it... it will all happen deep inside them, their innocense, sense of right vs. wrong, trust, self-confidence, security, and respect for their parents will crumble. THAT is the harm!



Hey sarc, even though i hate you. I must agree. This shit can only lead to worse and bad things. I hope this bitch thinks of her kids when shes fucking this teen. Bitch your gonna fuck up your kids lives. Please refer to the movie Unfaithful except make it have a bad ending. You fucking dirty skank if i was your son id be ashamed of you and probably murder your ass. You need to stop this immediatly, tell your husband and beg his forgiveness you dirty fucking slut.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:



Kikey, go have a club sandwich, a beer and watch Real Genius again. You'll feel better.

Ah yes, because I'm just too much of a plebian. Goddamn, I'm just too unsophisticated to respect a good bit of adultery.

I actually believe in the instution of marriage. Fuck, I'm all kinds of white trash, I guess.

My mistake. I actually thought the stupid thing meant something.

I suppose I should just go watch FOX News and shut my stupid mouth, then.



[This message has been edited by Kikey_Kikeowitz (edited 09-21-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

But there are worse things, such as abuse and abandonment.



The pain they will feel if they ever find out that she cheated on their father will be exactly that... phychological abuse and abandonment... that's PRECISELY what they will experience... believe me, my mum caused as much damage to my psyche by pulling her little trick as she would have had she taken a baseball bat to me... I would've prefered the bat to be honest because then I would not have had to deal with the overwhelming sorrow and stress for my father...



Shoulda woulda coulda just doesn't apply to being a parent... being a parent is the heaviest responsibility in the universe, you do it RIGHT... regardless of your stupid little selfish desires... If people are too selfish to handle doing the right thing for their children then they should be giving them up for adoption... at least then they can grow up in a loving, healthy home, and they won't have their heart's broken until they're old enough to deal with it.

quote:Originally posted by qwerty316:

Exactly.

Hey you little fucker, your tearing a family apart. This isnt something thats good, your gonna end up fucking up this ladies husband, and kids lifes, you fucking selfish bastard. You might also fuck up her life. Which i hope happens, fuck the dirty whore she can die a horrible death. And i also hope that her husband finds out and teaches you a lesson bitch. Your wrecking this family and you feel good?

you need to get your mind in check you little fucker.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Ah yes, because I'm just too much of a plebian to respect the institution of marriage.

Nah, it's not your socioeconomic position. You're still just looking at life through absolutes, which is a luxury at your age.

quote:My mistake. I actually thought the stupid thing meant something.

It does, but it means different things to different people. Who are you to impose judgements on how others conduct what is essentially a legal agreement?

quote:I suppose I should just go watch FOX News and shut my stupid mouth, then.



Nah, mainstream media sucks, and is probably where you get the harebrained notions that fall within your 33% error margin.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

I hope the whore's husband finds out and beats the fuck out of you with a baseball bat, you piece of shit.

He would have to find me first.

quote:Originally posted by akk:

Hey you little fucker, your tearing a family apart. This isnt something thats good, your gonna end up fucking up this ladies husband, and kids lifes, you fucking selfish bastard. You might also fuck up her life. Which i hope happens, fuck the dirty whore she can die a horrible death. And i also hope that her husband finds out and teaches you a lesson bitch. Your wrecking this family and you feel good?

you need to get your mind in check you little fucker.

Sure is easy for some of you to make vicious judgements from your high horses.

Most of you are too young to know what the fuck you're talking about. I don't play that card often, but it truly applies here.

What is this, the 19th century? Should this "whore" be forced to wear a scarlet letter?

Grow the fuck up. No family has been "torn apart" except in your imaginations. Or in your own lives, which you project mercilessly upon this situation.

Sheesh.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

It does, but it means different things to different people. Who are you to impose judgements on how others conduct what is essentially a legal agreement?



Well then, if it's up to those involved in the marriage to decide, let's go right to the source and ask the whore.

Hey, babygz: Did your husband approve of this affair?

After all, it's up to the people involved in the 'legal contract' to make joint decisions about said contract.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

I know the harm from first hand experience... I WAS the child once... it fucking hurts like all hell and it makes your insides burn like they're on fire...

I've never felt a greater anger, pain, hatred, sense of betrayal, shame and contempt for a person than I did when I found out that my mother was unfaithful... it took 6 years for me to rebuild my ability to trust anyone...

When you don't have kids you're free to live your life as you please, your relationship choices effect you and one other person, and you're both adults... adults can handle that shit... kids SHOULDN'T HAVE TO! When children are involved the potential damage is just too great to risk... When you're a parent you learn to put your CHILDREN first and find another way to get your fuckin' jollies.

Regardless of age, they could be 18 for all it matters, when those kids find out that mommy is a whore their whole world will colapse in on top of them... and you won't even see it... it will all happen deep inside them, their innocense, sense of right vs. wrong, trust, self-confidence, security, and respect for their parents will crumble. THAT is the harm!



The children and the husband, know nothing, only that I message her and we talk about life situations. She has made it clear to her family that I am not of intrest. Unless he some how finds the chat logs, or she feels guilty and tells, I doubt anything bad will happen.. How would it hurt the family(kids, husband) If they don't find out?

quote:Originally posted by akk:



Hey sarc, even though i hate you. I must agree. This shit can only lead to worse and bad things. I hope this bitch thinks of her kids when shes fucking this teen. Bitch your gonna fuck up your kids lives. Please refer to the movie Unfaithful except make it have a bad ending. You fucking dirty skank if i was your son id be ashamed of you and probably murder your ass. You need to stop this immediatly, tell your husband and beg his forgiveness you dirty fucking slut.



What the fuck?

as I stated eariler no one knows, and you woudl muder your own mother? That in itself is worse then what is happening over here with us, moron.

qwerty, the only reason I'm not saying you deserve to get the shit beaten from your pores is because I think you just don't know better... IMO she's at fault, and she's using you. The whole thing is just fucked.

quote:Originally posted by qwerty316:



How would it hurt the family(kids, husband) If they don't find out?



They're going to find out.

Either today, two weeks from now, 10 years from now, or on the broad's deathbed.

The longer they go without knowing, the more it's going to hurt.

But, you don't care about that, and I don't blame you. I wouldn't either, if I sunk low enough to have an affair with a married woman.

qwerty, i hope you burn in hell you shit, and thats after the husband finds out and kicks the living crap out of you.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:

Well then, if it's up to those involved in the marriage to decide, let's go right to the source and ask the whore.

Hey, babygz: Did your husband approve of this affair?

After all, it's up to the people involved in the 'legal contract' to make joint decisions about said contract.



As hard as it is to defend someone with a screen name like "babygz" (cringe!) this is becoming ridiculous.

One thing I've learned about happy long-term couples (truly happy and would never part) is that they don't tell each other everything.

Though you only meant it in the rhetorical sense, only busy-bodies with no life of their own would even consider approaching the husband. And some husbands, believe it or not, are happy not knowing.

Again, when you haven't lived even 20 years on this earth you lack a frame of reference for life's complications and you cling to absolutes.





[This message has been edited by deadlycindy (edited 09-21-2003).]

EVERYONE finds out... like kikey said, days, months, years... it's only a amtter of time. And if she's a dumb bitch and isn't taking the proper precautions and clearing the PC of those chat logs then most likely it'll be her KIDS that find them and go show them to daddy... geezus, it's like you people haven't been out in the real world long enough or something... you're still naive enough to think that "no-one will ever know" and "there are no consequences in life!".... um yeah right, grow the fuck up and GET REAL.

I can attest to the fact that adults have affairs all the time and no one finds out who isn't supposed to find out.

Adults might occasionally act like reckless teens, but we're not stupid about it anymore.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

qwerty, the only reason I'm not saying you deserve to get the shit beaten from your pores is because I think you just don't know better... IMO she's at fault, and she's using you. The whole thing is just fucked.

I understand.. I know she is NOT using me, she cares.. there is more to it.. we are talking now.. I want her to post what she said to me on here.. I like you sarc.. Her and i have a strong connection..

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

One thing I've learned about happy long-term couples (truly happy and would never part) is that they don't tell each other everything.

And, betraying one partner's trust falls among this group of things they don't tell?

quote:Though you only meant it in the rhetorical sense, only busy-bodies with no life of their own would even consider approaching the husband.

Only busy-bodies, or women who are honest. I'd be willing to wager that most husbands would be ok with it, if they were up-front and allowed the husbands to fuck around as well.

quote:And some husbands, believe it or not, are happy not knowing.

What the fuck does that mean?

They can't even make a descision on how the feel if they don't know.

quote:Again, when you haven't lived even 20 years on this earth you lack a frame of reference for life's complications and you cling to absolutes.

I'm not 'clinging to absolutes.' I'm sure there are certain cases where this would be accepted by both spouses.

This case, however, is certainly not one of them.

You can pull this 'everything is gray' bullshit all you want. The fact is, she almost absolutely betrayed her husband's trust.

Maybe he's abusive, though I doubt it. In that case, I can understand wanting to get affection from somewhere else.

Maybe he's fucking around himself, in which case, he deserves to have her cheat on him.

But, I doubt it. If she can get away with talking to some random guy on the internet, and not get any shit about it, it leads me to believe that this guy's just a poor sap who's being fucked over by a whore.

quote:Originally posted by qwerty316:

I understand.. I know she is NOT using me, she cares.. there is more to it.. we are talking now.. I want her to post what she said to me on here.. I like you sarc.. Her and i have a strong connection..

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Even I'm not that naive.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

EVERYONE finds out... like kikey said, days, months, years... it's only a amtter of time. And if she's a dumb bitch and isn't taking the proper precautions and clearing the PC of those chat logs then most likely it'll be her KIDS that find them and go show them to daddy... geezus, it's like you people haven't been out in the real world long enough or something... you're still naive enough to think that "no-one will ever know" and "there are no consequences in life!".... um yeah right, grow the fuck up and GET REAL.



Perhaps I over looked this. They all find out.. you are right.. i do agree I had to do some thinking..

I have nothing to say.. i am sure i could go over a few statments.. but I some how just don't care.. she is reading all of what your was said.. but she won't respond.. I know what she wants.. what has been said ... its nothing like it at all and it is not in my place to post what she has said.. and i don't think she will respond.. so the truth well never be known.

quote:Originally posted by qwerty316:

I understand.. I know she is NOT using me, SHE CARES .. there is more to it.. we are talking now.. I want her to post what she said to me on here.. I like you sarc.. Her and i have a strong connection..

Haha she cares my ass. She use to tell her husband that. She tells you that now then goes home and fucks her husband.

Also she cheated on her husband.. you think she will not do the same to you? Once a whore always a whore.

quote:One thing I've learned about happy long-term couples (truly happy and would never part) is that they don't tell each other everything.

Cindy, you're right. But having an ongoing affair is a completely different thing. I would be ok with her if she ended all of this right now, but she's continuing to betray her children and husband. A small accidental kiss that meant nothing is one thing, but this is utterly different. I'm not saying she should tell her family about this, I'm just saying that she should end it. Now.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:



I suppose I should just go watch FOX News and shut my stupid mouth, then.





dont shut your mouth your the only intellectual person on here right now

you need to voice your opinion more yea i think he should burn in hell and the woman so get her ass beat by her husband then lose all respect from her children by them finding out

quote:Originally posted by akk:

Haha she cares my ass. She use to tell her husband that. She tells you that now then goes home and fucks her husband.

Also she cheated on her husband.. you think she will not do the same to you? Once a whore always a whore.



Hey i left a response to that in your email.. kinda sucks that she knows my id now...

Interesting thread. I made an adultery thread once, I slept with a married woman, and no one seemed to get upset about it. There were no kids, and her husband had cheated first. It was kinda like revenge.

Thing is, you all don't know the circumstances. If she really is already head over heels for querty316, she has major issues. This better just be about sex.

I agree with Cindy that a lot of you are looking at the world a bit too idealistically. A lot of these posts sound a lot like what I would expect to hear in church.

First: Get off querty316's back. He cannot ruin the marriage. It is either ruined or not by the people involved. If this woman did not want him, he would not have a chance in hell with her.

Second: Stop assuming the father is innocent. You don't know that. It could be all her, but 9/10 times both partners are at fault for marital problems.

Third: The kids are not a part of the marriage. I know it is tough on the kids, but IMO, this is no different than divorce. If you think people should stay together and faithful for the sake of the kids, you are idealistic and unrealistic. I think Cindy again has a good point when she says there are worse things. It does not have to be abuse or abandonment. Living in an unhappy home under a relationship under strain is no picnic. It could hurt the kids; not doing it could hurt them more or less. You don't know. But I don't see the living a lie for the sake of the kids as an appropriate solution. In the long run, no one benefits.

Fourth: Some of you need to get off your high horses. Kikey, if any halfway desirable house wife showed a hint of interest in you, you would cream your shorts, and you know it.

And finally: querty316, don't fall in love. If you are going to go for it, just take what she offers and be grateful. 9/10 times the way the fam does find out about the affair is when things start to get better for the married one, she calls things off, and the jilted lover throws a fit. You are too young to understand so just trust me. There is no future for you two. None. Even if she got a divorce. Even if she may temporarily think so in a moment of erotic stupidity, she will come to her senses. Just get your sex without getting your heart broke or breaking her fam.

-Easy

Lucky sonofabitch *grumbles*

This post is purely disheartening.

It looks like totse is full of whores and idiots (so what else is new)

Sarc, Kike, and a couple others: you are about the only voices of reason in this situation, and are exempt from the following:

19 YEAR OLD BOY! 35 YEAR OLD MARRIED WOMAN WITH KIDS! ADULTERY!

Does it GET ANY WORSE?? Good fuck. Hell with this "It's ok as long as they don't find out" shit. See the above, you bunch of fucking idiots!

And Qwert, you naive little fuck doll, she doesn't love you. DON'T be an idiot, and don't fuck up a family, that shit just isn't right. Like Kikey said, they WILL find out. And I also hope the husband finds out and then ventilates you.

As for babygz, you're not even worthy of being called "human". Stop being a whore and start being a good parent and good wife. He didn't marry you with the knowledge that you'd fuck around; you're destroying a most likely decent man's trust in you, and you're going to tear your kids apart too. I've been there.

Then again, your kids would be better off without a pedophilic whore for a mother. I hope you die.

-Infrared



[This message has been edited by Infrared (edited 09-22-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

Fourth: Some of you need to get off your high horses. Kikey, if any halfway desirable house wife showed a hint of interest in you, you would cream your shorts, and you know it.

I have turned down girls that were in relationships before, and I wouldn't think twice about doing it again.

I like to abide by the golden rule when it comes to things like this, a rule that isn't cited too often in our society nowadays.

Advise.. then? what should i do.. bottom line...

Bah, you've already started it.

You might as well try to get some sex out of it.

Don't worry, she'll use you and toss you soon enough.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

Interesting thread. I made an adultery thread once, I slept with a married woman, and no one seemed to get upset about it. There were no kids, and her husband had cheated first. It was kinda like revenge.

Thing is, you all don't know the circumstances. If she really is already head over heels for querty316, she has major issues. This better just be about sex.

I agree with Cindy that a lot of you are looking at the world a bit too idealistically. A lot of these posts sound a lot like what I would expect to hear in church.

First: Get off querty316's back. He cannot ruin the marriage. It is either ruined or not by the people involved. If this woman did not want him, he would not have a chance in hell with her.

Second: Stop assuming the father is innocent. You don't know that. It could be all her, but 9/10 times both partners are at fault for marital problems.

Third: The kids are not a part of the marriage. I know it is tough on the kids, but IMO, this is no different than divorce. If you think people should stay together and faithful for the sake of the kids, you are idealistic and unrealistic. I think Cindy again has a good point when she says there are worse things. It does not have to be abuse or abandonment. Living in an unhappy home under a relationship under strain is no picnic. It could hurt the kids; not doing it could hurt them more or less. You don't know. But I don't see the living a lie for the sake of the kids as an appropriate solution. In the long run, no one benefits.

Fourth: Some of you need to get off your high horses. Kikey, if any halfway desirable house wife showed a hint of interest in you, you would cream your shorts, and you know it.

And finally: querty316, don't fall in love. If you are going to go for it, just take what she offers and be grateful. 9/10 times the way the fam does find out about the affair is when things start to get better for the married one, she calls things off, and the jilted lover throws a fit. You are too young to understand so just trust me. There is no future for you two. None. Even if she got a divorce. Even if she may temporarily think so in a moment of erotic stupidity, she will come to her senses. Just get your sex without getting your heart broke or breaking her fam.

-Easy

This is the only fair and balanced thread out here... Thank you easy.. your advise is the best advise... Great wit too

Hmm, I've been talking about this since Qwerty first talked about getting ready for the date in #totse, and in short you people need to mind your own business and stop judging people. You sound like 10 year olds with anger management problems.

If it feels right than do it. If she wants to have sex with him, and he wants to have sex with her than that's all there is to it. What other people and society think doesn't matter.

A lot of the nay sayers try and hide behind "breaking up the family", but when you get right down to it you just don't like the idea of "your woman" sleeping around. You can't own the pink slip on a woman, and maybe if you all stopped being such control freaks you could actually get a girl.

A woman isn't property, a woman is a human being. Deal with it, stop constantly beating off to one sided pornography and talk to a dynamic person.

People are people and the world isn't "wholesome". Calling people sluts isn't going to change that so grow up. It burned when your mom was unfaithful but she was still your mother, and it burned when your dog died but you have to deal with it.

And as I said in #totse, if you have sex take your pants off all the way in case you have to run. If the husband catches you he very much has the right to beat your ass. Also a lot of you remind me of when my friends little brother said he was going to hell because he didn't go to church. Baaah. Grow up, grow a brain.

quote:Originally posted by cross:

If it feels right than do it.

Funny thing, that saying.

Hippies used to follow that diligently.

Now, most of them are either dead from drug overdoses or former yuppies, and the bands they followed are rediculously rich fucks driving Mercedes Benzs.

quote: If she wants to have sex with him, and he wants to have sex with her than that's all there is to it. What other people and society think doesn't matter.

Does what her husband thinks matter?

quote:A woman isn't property, a woman is a human being. Deal with it, stop constantly beating off to one sided pornography and talk to a dynamic person.

Now, I think you need to understand the meaning behind a little concept we have here on earth, called a 'relationship.'

In a 'relationship,' there are normally two people involved. Could be a man and a woman, could be a man and man, could even be a woman and a woman. The point is, these two people like 'spending the time' allotted to them by the grand cosmic poobah together.

Now, normally, these two people only spend their 'time' together. There are certain cases where BOTH people agree to spend their 'time' with or together with other people, but this is a mutual agreement.

Any 'time spending' with another person, without the agreement of the other person, is a betrayal of trust, and means that the person who's 'spending time' outside the 'relationship,' doesn't give a damn about it.

quote:If the husband catches you he very much has the right to beat your ass.

So then, you acknowledge that what she's done is wrong?

i dunno what i would do in ur situation, if she's hot i dunno, im a man and would prolly do what i desire but i dunno bro... it's completely morally wrong

quote:Originally posted by cross:

A lot of the nay sayers try and hide behind "breaking up the family", but when you get right down to it you just don't like the idea of "your woman" sleeping around. You can't own the pink slip on a woman, and maybe if you all stopped being such control freaks you could actually get a girl.

A woman isn't property, a woman is a human being. Deal with it, stop constantly beating off to one sided pornography and talk to a dynamic person.



LOL! You have a great way of putting things. But are you sure no one can hold a woman's "pink slip"? There are tons of faithful marriages/relationships. I just think you can't hold on to that "pink slip" with insecurity. Even if you don't like it, I'd bet there are tons of women in the world that are owned..

-Easy

quote:Originally posted by cross:

If it feels right than do it.

Originally posted by Kikey:

Funny thing, that saying.

Hippies used to follow that diligently.

Now, most of them are either dead from drug overdoses or former yuppies...

It's this sort of fallacious generalization that makes it difficult to take you seriously on "real life" arguments.

Most OD's that happened to people from that era happened to Viet Nam vets, not "hippies." Most "hippies" one way or another have disappeared into their own lives which is no longer glorified by the media. Just because they're not seen or heard doesn't mean they don't exist.

But you're right on the yuppies thing. Some hippies did become successful upper-middle class folk. Many of them own the huge, gorgeous Victorians in the Haight-Ashbury, and selling them for more than a million these days.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:



...I'd bet there are tons of women in the world that are owned..



i don't know what You mean..

^Don't worry your pretty little head about it. Just go make me a sandwich!

reply sent qwerty

Jerry...Jerry...Jerry...Jerry...

quote:Originally posted by [eXo5]Metal:

Wow qwerty that was an erotic story...

Ditto!

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

Well now, two individuals in their respective "sexual peaks." Nothing but good times can come of this.

Bon appetit!

Edit: Just saw Sarc's post, oh dear. While I choose to be single and unburdened by children since my choices in life are not currently consistent with family matters, others make different choices.

Geez, Sarc, a 35-year old woman is still very human and thus sexual, and this little affair might give her the boost she needs to be a better mother and wife. As long as she's there when the kids need her, what's the harm?

[This message has been edited by deadlycindy (edited 09-21-2003).]



Wow, Cindy. You think the children rely only on the mother? So inconsiderate. What about the father?

quote:

and this little affair might give her the boost she needs to be a better mother and wife.

Your massive misunderstanding with psychological matters is expressed so perfectly. How can having an affiar give her a "boost" to enhance matters the husband? The children?

She lied about her "friendship" with her husband and children.

Wow Cindy, this "boost" as you say is working. How can you retain an affair and meet the needs of the children and the husband at the same time. Where is this extra time coming from?

A woman who meets some random online character who is 16 years younger, kisses him and lies about their status likely has psychological issues.

As for qwerty, to have an affiar with someone 16 years older that has a family is very inconsiderate.

I believe the husband should leave this woman, and take the children too. She isn't dedicated, trustworthy and responsible to be a mother and wife. She should be alone meeting her selfish desires without nobody to hurt but herself.

Keeping this relationship secret or lies about its status to her own children and husband shows her level of honesty and trustworthyness to those who are having the affair with her.

All I'm gonna say is if I found out my wife is having/had a fling with someone, I'd hunt them down and beat the living shit out of them. Then I'd toss her to the curb. Wouldn't matter if the affair was over or not.

Fuck that.

Keep it up Cindy! I can tell you no flames can harm you.

quote:Originally posted by Viper229:

Wow, Cindy. You think the children rely only on the mother? So inconsiderate. What about the father?

Not really a "wowable" concept, but what exactly is your point about the father...?

quote:Your massive misunderstanding with psychological matters is expressed so perfectly. How can having an affiar give her a "boost" to enhance matters the husband? The children?

I believe you mean your massive misunderstanding. I'm just keeping an open mind here. You've closed yours. Considering that neither of us know the details of the circumstances, I believe my "understanding" makes more sense.

quote:She lied about her "friendship" with her husband and children.

Wow Cindy, this "boost" as you say is working. How can you retain an affair and meet the needs of the children and the husband at the same time. Where is this extra time coming from?

Again, I'm just keeping an open mind. And you don't know if the "boost" I postulated (not declared) might have worked in other ways.

And what's all this "extra time" you speak of? Your statement is rife with presumptions. It doesn't take much time to fuck.

quote:A woman who meets some random online character who is 16 years younger, kisses him and lies about their status likely has psychological issues.

I can't defend the lying, honestly, but there's really nothing wrong with the rest of it.

quote:I believe the husband should leave this woman, and take the children too. She isn't dedicated, trustworthy and responsible to be a mother and wife. She should be alone meeting her selfish desires without nobody to hurt but herself.



Well, so let's slap the scarlet letter on the whore and rejoice! Hallelujah!

She shouldn't need the scarlet letter anyway (besides, Hester's adultery was of a far different nature)

Back on topic: There have been many varied views presented on this thread, several voices of reason, not to mention people throwing in their own past experiences.

Honestly, Qwerty, I think you're in over your head. I've never had a gf/fiance that was faithful. it sucks; they never learn. Consider yourself lucky to see what would happen when some young buck comes along.... you're history, just like her HUSBAND (sickness and health my ass) is now. It seems awful easy for her to just drop her life and move on.

Did you ever think of how you met? On the INTERNET. Did you ever consider that there are other 19 year old guys in her life? she seems awful ready to lie to her FAMILY about her 'relationship' w/you. I think it's entirely plausible that she will end up lying to you as well.

And don't anybody give me any "everyone has secrets" bullshit; and no husband in his right mind (and has a pair) is "happier not knowing" that's straight up crap.

Did you ever think of where this is gonna go? do you want to raise her kids? do you want to start a family, at NINETEEN? get real; your busting a nut shouldn't have to throw such a monkey wrench into a mid-life-crisis soccer mom's life, now should it?

My advice to you, qwerty is to just count yourself lucky with a little action with an older woman in the back of her car. leave it at that, take what you've learned and get yourself someone to grow old with. At least then you'll both die at around the same time.

First of all, I just want to make it clear that all I'm doing here is refusing to judge others by my own personal set of "morals and ethics." Some of you think it appropriate to do so. Whatever.

I'm agreeing to disagree with all contrary viewpoints in this thread because I'm pretty sure they're coming from youthful idealism.

I'm curious what opponents to my posts think about Easy_Going's first post on this thread.

Thank you for the advise.. this has brought up many diffrent points of view.. and for totse to be so liberal in all other topics.. and in this thread is fillled with conservative answers.. strange. As it stands I have taken every point of view in to consideration, and then some.

Cindy, you reply to my perfect remarks with senseless rhetoric. You say you are keeping an open mind? Yeah your mind is open, busted wide open. So the nothingness within can be exposed.

quote:And what's all this "extra time" you speak of? Your statement is rife with presumptions. It doesn't take much time to fuck.

I said where is this extra time coming from, then you say it doesn't take much time to fuck. Little or much its still time. You’re ignorant and a hypocrite. They never fucked; take your false presumptions back.

quote:Again, I'm just keeping an open mind. And you don't know if the "boost" I postulated (not declared) might have worked in other ways.



It can't work in other ways. You can't even bring one instance of it possibly working. Just endless rhetorical nonsense, you use lame attempts of positive reinforcement yet your fail. Leaving readers to presume. Your attempts to criticize me are only childish resistance with no backing just endless "open minded" presumptions.

As I am only 17. My opinions are not from experience but from psychology.

At least we all agree that what's going on here isn't correct, right...

quote:Originally posted by Viper229:

Cindy, you reply to my perfect remarks with senseless rhetoric.

...

As I am only 17. My opinions are not from experience but from psychology.



Psychology, huh? A branch of study. Woefully inadequate. And high school psychology, even.

I reply to your remarks with the life experience of a 30-year old who has been engaged 3 times, who has cheated and been cheated on. Not something I read out of a book or from what was told to me. And I managed to do so without resorting to senseless insults.

When you can do the same, I'll consider the validity of your remarks. Calling them "perfect" is rather self-congratulatory and doesn't lend them any credence.

I just wanted to make a few things clear, first of all I don't give a good god damn if some married woman wants to go and fool around with a 19 yo stud.

This broad is doing this behind her husband's back, and when he finds out about it (and OH YES, he will... they always do) then it'll be up to him to decide whether or not to roll over and take it up the ass, or leave her. He's a big boy, he can take it. That's all part of playin the love game... shit happens.

As I said I don't really give a damn, these are all consenting adults... sure she's breaking vows and lying, but who doesn't do that these days... marriage is a joke, everyone is laughing. Ha...Ha...

Hell, he might even be fooling around behind her back! At least we all HOPE that she's got a good reason to be doing this... we HOPE that he's not a lovely husband and a wonderful father who will soon be receiving the heartbreak of his life... We hope he's some ugly fat bastard who beats his wife and screams at the kids... right?

And then, poor qwerty... she tells him this sob story about her life, how she's just not happy, just not fullfilled, her husband just doesn't connect with her... she flirts, he gives her attention she hasn't received in YEARS... after all qwerty doesn't know how bitchy she can be when the kids aren't behaving, he hasn't witnessed how unreasonable she can get in an argument, he hasn't smelled how bad her farts are, or seen her at her worst when she crawls out of bed in the morning... he hasn't had to put up with ANY of her real-life shit that her husband has gone through and survived. So qwerty flatters her and makes her feel like she's 20 again. When he realized that she's not all cream and dasies and starts treating her like a normal human being she'll just move on to someone new... after all, there's no better feeling than the feeling of new-love.

She doesn't stop to realize that she's just as responsible for the condition of her relationship with her husband and family... she's ready to risk everything she's built with her husband just to get a glimpse of what it feels like to be young again, she'll put it all on the line for a fucking FEELING... a FEELING folks, not a reality... being with this kid doesn't make her younger... it just gives her a goddamn feeling... what, she can't cope with the reality that she's getting older? She can't find a way to accept her own age and make the most of life as an adult? She can't put away the selfish kiddy games and get on with developing a deep and FULL life with the man she chose to marry?

...anyway, I'm getting distracted...

... the problem I had was when I read this:

quote:and has a few kidos

You say it's idealistic of me to believe that parents should consider their children first and foremost when making these kinds of decisions....

I say you're idealistic if you think that a child has the ability to remain uneffected and undamaged by the knowledge that their parent or parents are unfaithful to each other... (which usually leads to divorce which is an even bigger can of esteem-destroying worms)

OKWhat happens when a generation of parents submit their children to extreme emotional torsion?

What happens when an entire GENERATION of parents just do what feels good regardless of the consequences?

What happens when a generation of children are raised not knowing what a healthy family structure is?

Not knowing what marriage is?

Not knowing what being faithful to a partner is?

Not knowing what resisting temptation is? Not knowing what being responsible and mature is?

Not knowing what it feels like to trust that mommy and daddy will always be home to kiss them goodnight?

Not knowing what it feels like to be secure, confident, and fully supported by both parents?

A whole generation of people raised to do as they please, with no guidance or example of what is right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy, dangerous, safe, intelligent, stupid.... and without consideration for the quality of life for themselves or others...

If we lived like that we would be animals... what seperates us from animals is that we reason, we THINK, we make decisions for ourselves. We consider how our decisions will effect the future. Animals do what feels good... whatever feels good, they do it... they don't stop to consider the consequences, they live in the moment. Yeah... lets all just abandon living as civilized humans and just do what feels good... right?

I do speak from my own experience, but you cannot claim that I am unfairly projecting my problems on other people... it's a PROVEN fact that children in broken homes often experience stress and emotional strain that is BEYOND what they can handle.... it's just beyond their threshhold, they break... they are damaged... they cannot understand. Children are not developed enough to cope... yeah, you say "oh, but they do cope" ok, they survive... most of them live long enough to figure out how to fix their skewed perception, but most repeat their parents mistakes... some of them don't live long enough to even figure out why they can't stand the thought of living any longer.

I was 14, I was emotionall stable, I was well defined as a person... I made it. I consider myself above average when it comes to emotional strength, and as hard as it was for me I can't even imagine how bad it must be for younger kids who don't have the kind of independance and strength that I had...

Not everyone deserves to be a parent... I hope that by the time some of you have children you realize just what a big deal it really is...





[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-23-2003).]

Sarc, are you saying that relationships with kids can never end until the kids get 18?

How does this always happen when I have to sit out for a day or two?

The simplest thing first- he's bound to find out. Cindy's absolutely right in that adults do fuck around and get away with it, but there's only one adult out of the pair, and they're talking about it in the most public forum available. Regardless of the anonymity factor, it doesn't bode well for their ability to permanently keep this quiet.

I'll make the same comment I've made several times in the past, and which at least one person has already mentioned- this is not on qwerty. She's a grown woman who makes her own decisions. Only she knows the real family dynamics going on, what she needs/wants, etc., so the responsibility for all of that is on her and her alone. I admit that I have to wonder somewhat about a 35-year-old woman who takes a name like "babygz", but that's irrelevant.

Some of you guys need to listen to Cindy a little more carefully, though. While the idea behind a relationship is total faithfulness, you don't know the deal here. It's hardly uncommon for a woman in her mid-30's, at her sexual peak, to be frustrated as hell by a husband who, at least to her, seems relatively distant and unwilling to give her what she needs. Lack of sex can cause a great deal of tension and stress which break down a relationship just as readily as a dirty little secret.

Let's say that this woman is in need of a little something a couple of times per week. If she does what most of you think is a given, which is shut up and do nothing- masturbation may relieve sexual tension, but many times a person cheats because they need intimacy as much as orgasm- her mind starts to wander, or worse, get stuck on what she's not getting. The frustration builds and builds, and eventually, she's taking that out on the people around her- namely her husband and kids.

Now, let's say she meets a guy like qwerty and, with him, a way to relieve that building stress. Many of you would call that morally repugnant, yet often the woman in that situation becomes calmer, more at ease with herself, and better with her family because the stress of the secret is much smaller than the stress of mother nature kicking your ass from the inside out. As Cindy said, it may be the lesser of two evils.

Keep in mind this is only one possible scenario. The husband may be driving her to do this in even more overt ways. She could simply be irresponsible (in which case I agree with the majority that this is fucked up, as there would be no pros in this outside of her own pleasure).

The point is, none of us know the specifics, so unless those two are willing to share more, any moral judgments are based in part on assumption (that this is a woman with a hunky dory family life that is simply a trash-heap cunt who's doing the dangerous thing to get her jollies). While there's little harm done in doing this here, and may even help in a way, since it seems like qwerty may be having second thoughts for good reason, try not to get in the habit of doing it in your daily life. It causes more problems than it solves.

Nope, I'm just saying that the reason so many marriages are ending in divorce is because people are FUCKING STUPID and WEAK and they just do what feels good rather than making WISE decisions.

They get married too quickly, they have kids too quickly, and then they run off with someone new too quickly without stopping to realize that their stupidity and hasty decision making just fucked up a little person's world.

^I would agree with that if you could agree that adultery is about the same thing. Actually, it is often far less harmful to the kids than divorce. It is obvious this couple does not know how to keep each other happy, and they probably were not the most committed pair when they were married. So what? They fucked up and now she is living life the best way she can. You are not really asking people not to cheat. You are asking them to be perfect and that is too high a standard for most. Now I on the other hand..

-Easy

Again, thanks to the supportive people out there.. Cross/Red, Cindy, Spiffy, Easy Going, and the posters who made their thoughts be known, and took both forms of thought and action.

Sorry if I missed anyone.



[This message has been edited by qwerty316 (edited 09-23-2003).]

if you have half a brain it's really quite easy not to cheat... after only 22 years of observing couples I've seen the mess it makes out of the lives of people involved in a cheating scanario. This broad has 13 years on me, by now she's been exposed to the real world enough to know that cheating = messy, cheating = pain, cheating = BAD IDEA.

Why cheat when you can instead focus your energy on your marriage? If you can't fix your marriage then move on and divorce...

NO ONE is perfect and I don't expect that to be the case... but there are proper ways of doing things... you try everything before you give up on your spouse, EVERYTHING... and then, if it still fails you move on with your life. Eventually, when your children are back on solid ground THEN you can explore dating again, not a moment before.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

if you have half a brain it's really quite easy not to cheat...

Some people have enough brains to get elected President of the USA and still cheat. guh, bad example, but I mean to say that intelligence does not preclude infidelity.

quote:after only 22 years of observing couples I've seen the mess it makes out of the lives of people involved in a cheating scanario.

Cute. You're 22, but you've hardly spent that time "observing couples." Most folks aren't truly cognizant of relationship dynamics at such a young age. You know more than a 12-year old might know, but not more than someone who's 25, 35, or 50.

quote:This broad has 13 years on me, by now she's been exposed to the real world enough to know that cheating = messy, cheating = pain, cheating = BAD IDEA.

And this broad has accumulated a veritable arsenal of complications that make such back-and-white equations problematic.

quote:Why cheat when you can instead focus your energy on your marriage? If you can't fix your marriage then move on and divorce..

Review Spiffy's post.

quote:NO ONE is perfect and I don't expect that to be the case...

Yes, you do.

quote: but there are proper ways of doing things...

For you. Stop trying to impose your morals and ethics on others.

Nothing personal, Sarc. You're a tad judgemental, though, and persist with this "my way is the righteous way" viewpoint.

quote:Yes, you do.

Very nice, Cindy.

The thing is, I agree with Sarc. I know she's being a bit judgemental and a bit pushy, but for the most part, she's right. I recognize that you and Spiffy could be right, and I understand that part of the argument. I know you're giving the mother the benefit of the doubt. But she's being unfaithful continually and bonding with a young male. If she had a few one night stands with no attachments, it would be different. She's getting close to a teenage boy, and she has children and a husband. Unless she got married at a really early age, too, I think she married the wrong person; she's a bit young to be having a mid-life crisis (and it sounds as though this is the case).

Ooh. That story's turning me on qwerty. Just dump her. She wont talk, not at her age. Or just keep boning her.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Nope, I'm just saying that the reason so many marriages are ending in divorce is because people are FUCKING STUPID and WEAK and they just do what feels good rather than making WISE decisions.

They get married too quickly, they have kids too quickly, and then they run off with someone new too quickly without stopping to realize that their stupidity and hasty decision making just fucked up a little person's world.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

if you have half a brain it's really quite easy not to cheat... after only 22 years of observing couples I've seen the mess it makes out of the lives of people involved in a cheating scanario. This broad has 13 years on me, by now she's been exposed to the real world enough to know that cheating = messy, cheating = pain, cheating = BAD IDEA.

Why cheat when you can instead focus your energy on your marriage? If you can't fix your marriage then move on and divorce...

NO ONE is perfect and I don't expect that to be the case... but there are proper ways of doing things... you try everything before you give up on your spouse, EVERYTHING... and then, if it still fails you move on with your life. Eventually, when your children are back on solid ground THEN you can explore dating again, not a moment before.

The cheating scenarios start before someone considers cheating. It starts in an unrealistic approach to the entire relationship. You were starting to nail that in the first post I quoted here, and I think you were right on that people are stupid like you said. But I think it is too high a standard to set to expect everyone to begin a prefect relationship. The problems that result from the poor start could lead to divorce, cheating, fighting, abuse, or any number of things. You are going back and forth focusing just on the cheating and then on the entire relationship. In order for the relationships to work to all the high standards you set, they would have to do more than just not cheat. They would have to be perfect.

Ask yourself this: which is worse for the kids? An honest wife that divorces and leaves to be happy, or one that cheats some to get thru a midlife crisis or rough patch. I am not asking about which is better for the spouse. Also keep in mind that the problems that led to the decision don’t go away just because she decides to live with them.

As for your question about why cheat when you can focus your energy on your marriage, I am sorry to say that question is naïve. They have focused. It seems hopeless at some point. Much like your situation must seem right now even though you have done all you think you can, except much worse, much longer, and with long long droughts without sexual satisfaction.

-Easy

quote:Ask yourself this: which is worse for the kids? An honest wife that divorces and leaves to be happy, or one that cheats some to get thru a midlife crisis or rough patch?

The wife that cheats some is worse for the kids. Would have been better to figure out what's wrong and try to fix it.

quote: I am not asking about which is better for the spouse.

You're not asking, but I'll tell ya anyway. It's worse for the spouse for her to stay & cheat as well. Far better to either fix it, or be honest and tell him she doesn't love him anymore, or whatever the problem is.

quote:It seems hopeless at some point.

Then at that point you end the marriage and move on. You don't disrespect the person you supposedly love by screwing around behind his back, all the while acting like everything is ok and making him look the fool. And if he isn't the person you love anymore then do you want to spend the rest of your life with him anyway? Probably not, so get the divorce and be done with it. Staying together when the love is gone is stupid, even if it is 'for the kids'. You can't make the kids happy if you're not happy yourself.

Cheating doesn't bring happiness. Sexual satisfaction, maybe, but not happiness. It causes more harm than good in the long run.



[This message has been edited by LutherX (edited 09-23-2003).]

Well Luther just made more sense than I'll ever hope to make... so essentially, ditto what he said.

You can't cheat on someone you love... it's a contradiction in terms. If you can cheat on 'em, it means you don't love 'em, if you don't love 'em you have no business being married to 'em.

You can give me that "grey area" bullshit all you like, but thems are the cold hard facts.

quote:Originally posted by LutherX:



quote:



Ask yourself this: which is worse for the kids? An honest wife that divorces and leaves to be happy, or one that cheats some to get thru a midlife crisis or rough patch?



The wife that cheats some is worse for the kids. Would have been better to figure out what's wrong and try to fix it.



Figuring out what was wrong was not an option in the question. I said cheat or leave. Leaving hurts the kids. Cheating may not even be found out and if she stays things could possibly get better. If you want to make your own point about how no problems are better than some problems, go get your no shit award. But don’t play like you are answering my post.

quote:Originally posted by LutherX:



quote:



I am not asking about which is better for the spouse.



You're not asking, but I'll tell ya anyway. It's worse for the spouse for her to stay & cheat as well. Far better to either fix it, or be honest and tell him she doesn't love him anymore, or whatever the problem is.



No shit.

quote:Originally posted by LutherX:



quote:



It seems hopeless at some point.



Then at that point you end the marriage and move on. You don't disrespect the person you supposedly love by screwing around behind his back, all the while acting like everything is ok and making him look the fool. And if he isn't the person you love anymore then do you want to spend the rest of your life with him anyway? Probably not, so get the divorce and be done with it. Staying together when the love is gone is stupid, even if it is 'for the kids'. You can't make the kids happy if you're not happy yourself.

Cheating doesn't bring happiness. Sexual satisfaction, maybe, but not happiness. It causes more harm than good in the long run.



Leaving does not always bring happiness. Working on the relationship does not always work. Leaving is not even always an option. Not everyone is looking for happiness. And some who are may be willing to settle for less. You are seeing things as too black and white. I am not saying that cheating is the ideal thing. I am not even recommending it. But those with the Bible thumping stance are going to far. There are many many great parents that have cheated. There are many loving relationships that have survived cheating. Many even after it was discovered and confessed. You don’t know as much as you think you do. What you do know is that not having problems is better than having them, and true happiness and love are desirable.

No shit!

-Easy

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

If you can cheat on 'em, it means you don't love 'em, if you don't love 'em you have no business being married to 'em.



So anyone who even wants to cheat has no business being married and should get a divorce? Are you sure you're 22?

-Easy

Well, I'm finally sick of all you self-righteous jackasses and your wild assumptions about my life. It was a kiss, for chrissakes, we have NEVER HAD SEX! Although this is technically still cheating, what the hell do you care for? None of you know a goddamn thing about me, my life, my spouse, or the extent of my relationship with qwerty.

Sarcophagus--you are in no position at all to make judgements on me, look at you! I would never estrange myself from my family, the people who GAVE ME LIFE, to follow some internet loser to another country. Talk about selfish, you certainly are an athority on that! And you're even so pathetic, you can't even return to this country, so when this guy shows his true colors (and no, you haven't seen the real him yet, hon!) you're just FUCKED! You may use the excuse that your family caused your credit problems, but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, so what does that say about you? And one does have to wonder just what it is about you, that you haven't mentioned, that would cause parents to treat their own kid that way? I would love to know the whole story behind that.

And as for your "first hand experience with a cheating parent"--get over it, little baby, and stop passing judgement on me because you can't handle the fact that, just maybe, your father was a complete asshole to your mum and drove her to another. How does it feel to have someone making assumptions about your life, bitch? Someday, you'll come out of your immature, naive little shell and realize that nothing, NOTHING in life is absolute. Give it ten years, and you'll be the one in my place, when the guy you gave up all for is out all night and leaving you alone with his kids. Yes, I have 13 years on you, and it's been 13 years of learning that nothing I believed in at 22 is the way things work. I WAS you once, but real life has a way of breaking in even the most idealistic of little girls. So grow up, shut up, and for godssakes, GET SOME THERAPY!

For those of you who care to know the truth, here it is. I've spent 14 years being a "good wife and mother". I've also spent counless nights awake all night wondering where my husband is, only to be told that it's none of my business. Yes, he cheated on me, and didn't so much as apologize for his actions to this day. I was young, and determined to make my marriage work, convinced that HE would change if I worked hard enough. I've read the books, asked him to go to counsiling, kept myself looking presentable, done all the right things, only to have a man that still doesn't want a wife, but a maid and babysitter. And I AM a damn good mother to my kids. How do I have the time for them and an affair? I don't, I'm not having an affair. I talk to qwerty at night, when the kids are asleep, and I'm up all day with them. I read to them, play with them, and give them more than the attention they need. Which would be better for my kids, a home with no father, or a depressed, stressed out mother, or the one they have now? And as for the "poor chap"-my husband-he has already said that he doesn't care what I do, as long as I don't bother him. Really devoted and loving, isn't he? Why don't I get a divorce? Because the kids don't have all the personal information about mine and their dad's relationship. They have a home with two parents, a mother who is home full-time (no daycare), and parents who love them. I don't give a shit what all of you say, this is what is best for my kids.

And as for qwerty, he is an adult. He knows the facts, he makes his choices. We didn't intend to feel anything for each other, neither of us was looking for someone. We met on the internet, as members of the same group (not a dating group), and started talking. I don't go around flirting, looking for men, or trying fufill my "selfish desires". I was perfectly fine with my life the way it was. But life sometimes throws things at you that you don't expect, and meeting qwerty was one of those things. And I'm not sorry I met him, I consider him to be one of the gifts that life has given me. I'm not using him, I'm not sleeping with him, and I'm not going to apologize for caring about him. None of you will ever understand how deeply I care about Qwerty, and I really don't fucking care if you believe me or not. And no, I haven't fed him a line of crap about my "miserable life", and I'm not starved for affection. And I'm certainly not going to "dump him" and move on to someone else. I don't dump my friends.

As for all this coming out, bullshit. Whoever started the lie about "it always comes out in the end", was a cheated-on spouse looking to make themselves feel better. So stop trying to scare me with that load of crap.

Also, I'm not a whore. The definition of a whore is someone who sells sex for money. I haven't had sex with qwerty, and he hasen't paid for anything, so the term "whore" does not apply. Get your definitions straight before you go throwing words all over a message board.

As a final note, maybe some of you ignorant, immature liberal-wannabees should develope lives of you own, and stop obsessing over mine. I know there will be plenty of replies to this, flaming me, but I really don't care, as I won't be reading any of them. Your narrow-minded, conservative opinions don't interest me in the least. So grow the fuck up, get a damn life of your own, and go vote for Bush, cause you all have a lot in common with him.

~Kikey, like we would listen to the opinions of someone who can, and has, sucked his own dick.



~Deadlycindy and Easy--you guys have been the only reasonable posts I've seen, and we thank you for that.

The rest of you can go fuck yourselves!

[This message has been edited by babygz (edited 09-23-2003).]

[This message has been edited by babygz (edited 09-23-2003).]

We're not trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, steph. We're simply trying to allow for all possibilities. She may be a total scumbag, but there's no way for any of us to tell.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

You can't cheat on someone you love.

Yes, you can. Maybe not you specifically, but it happens all the time.

There's a difference between the love a 22-year-old has for her boyfriend of a few years and the love a 35-year-old woman has for her husband of 10-15. As powerful as it can be, as much of an attachment as it can create, it becomes a comfortable thing over time, not always so passionate and fiery. Sometimes people get a little too comfortable and forget just how much they love their spouse, which can create a lowered resistance to temptations of the flesh. In those situations, after a short period of indulgence, they usually screw their heads back on straight and carry on.

While this does happen quite a bit, I'm not suggesting this is an incredibly common occurance. What I am saying is that, despite its relative rarity compared to the number of families out there, it's a very realistic scenario in many cases, and almost certainly happens more than you'd probably believe.

And now that I see baby's post..

Alright. Everyone's said their piece, and they've done so nice and loudly. This has been a very enlightening topic, so I'll ask nicely that we not let it turn into an honest-to-god flame war. Ok? Cool.

Does that explain it good enough everyone? (Babygz's post)

Good to see you on the thread babygz. While I agree your position is correct, please keep in mind that most of the Bible thumpers on this thread are just kids. They have not had their illusions challenged yet, and there is no way that is going to happen here. That does not make them bad people. It is just a normal phase of growing up stupid and getting wise later. I know there was a time I would have been right along side them, and I bet that would have been true at some point for you too.

Out of good will towards those who still live pure, I would like to quote Deuteronomy: "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Let's all bow our heads for a word of prayer, shall we?

-Easy

quote:Figuring out what was wrong was not an option in the question. I said cheat or leave.

It's never a case of 'cheat or leave'. That sounds pretty black & white. There are always other options.

quote:Leaving hurts the kids.

It does, but so does cheating.

quote:Cheating may not even be found out and if she stays things could possibly get better.

If things do get better then she was one of the lucky ones. However, there's a much better chance of things getting better if they just took some time apart.

quote:If you want to make your own point about how no problems are better than some problems, go get your no shit award.

Thanks, but I already have my 'plenty of shit' award

quote:But don’t play like you are answering my post.

No playing here, I was answering your post.

quote:Leaving does not always bring happiness.

No it doesn't. There are no absolutes.

quote:Working on the relationship does not always work.

No sometimes relationships are doomed to fail regardless of how much you work at them. That's why you let them fail, and move on.

quote:Leaving is not even always an option.

When isn't it?

quote:Not everyone is looking for happiness.

No, some are looking for money, others for status, and others..... Your point?

quote:And some who are may be willing to settle for less.

Too bad for them.

quote:You are seeing things as too black and white. I am not saying that cheating is the ideal thing. I am not even recommending it. But those with the Bible thumping stance are going to far.

Hmm, ok I have been sounding a bit 'black & white', but it's not that easy. And I sure as hell ain't no Bible thumper either. It depends on the situation. If the husband is an asshole and treats her like shit then I wouldn't blame her for cheating on him. But then again that marriage would be doomed anyway.

quote:There are many many great parents that have cheated.

Yep, including one of mine. And guess what? They're divorced. And things got better afterwards. They weren't happy together, and my brothers & I knew it, even though we were kids.

quote:Many even after it was discovered and confessed.

There you go. We're only human, mistakes can happen. Continuing to make the same mistake will not make things better. Leaving may not make things better. The best choice is to fess up. Then it will be painfully obvious to both partners that there is a problem. If their future together is worth fixing, they will FIX IT. Actually, it is pretty black & white.

quote:You don’t know as much as you think you do.

I do think I know as much as I think you do... I do... whatever.

quote:What you do know is that not having problems is better than having them, and true happiness and love are desirable.

I know as much as my experience as a 31 year old husband & father of two has taught me. I know that nobody is without problems, but some problems you can control and others you can't. Cheating doesn't make problems go away, it compounds them. Every relationship I have ever seen where a partner was cheating has turned to shit. My parents', both my brothers, a friend. Granted, the cheating itself was never the root cause of the break ups, but it sure didn't help. Cheating is a sign that there are other problems, and unless those problems are recognized and dealt with then the marriage will fail. People who are happy with each other don't cheat. Go ahead and argue with that as much as you want.

However, maybe I don't have as much experience in this matter as some of the others here, for I have never cheated on my wife nor has she on me.

edit: jesus, like 5 posts in since the one I'm replying to... now this'll sound out of place but it took too long to delete it so. Anyway I'm not replying to qwerty's situation in particular, just the whole cheating thing in general.





[This message has been edited by LutherX (edited 09-23-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by qwerty316:

Again, thanks to the supportive people out there.. Cross/Red, Cindy, Spiffy, Easy Going, and the posters who made their thoughts be known, and took both forms of thought and action.

Sorry if I missed anyone.



Yeah, you missed everyone who disagreed with your decision.

Quite convenient, that miss.

quote:Originally posted by babygz:

~Kikey, like we would listen to the opinions of someone who can, and has, sucked his own dick.





That has absolutely nothing to do with it.

You can hide behind the few who agree with you, champion their opinions as the truth.

But mark my fucking words, whore. Your family's going to find out about this. You won't escape scot-free.

And I hope they make it hurt.

Wait a second.

...BWAHAHAHAAHHA!!!

I see the joke.

Good one, qwerty. I must admit, even I was taken.

No broad who just found out about this shit could have gathered as much info on the posters who contributed.

I tip my hat to you, good sir. It was quite the rub.

All that needs be done now is for a mod to verify my theory by checking the IPs.

It's never a case of 'cheat or leave'. That sounds pretty black & white. There are always other options.

I was debating with Sarc. She held the position that adultery was bad for the kids and then suggested leaving. I am not saying those are the two options, I was pointing out that her position was inconsistent. You should follow the thread closer before you jump in.

quote:



Leaving hurts the kids.



It does, but so does cheating.

If they find out. Leaving should hurt more though and like I said; we were discussing something you were not following.

quote:



Cheating may not even be found out and if she stays things could possibly get better.



If things do get better then she was one of the lucky ones. However, there's a much better chance of things getting better if they just took some time apart.

There are more lucky ones than you think, and time apart does not always work either. Besides, cheating is not relationship therapy. It is satisfying a need that is going unsatisfied.

quote:



But don’t play like you are answering my post.



No playing here, I was answering your post.

No. I was defending the position that adultery=bad for the sake of the kids, but divorce is an option, is an inconsistent position. I would further argue that kids should not be used as pawns to create or preserve relationships since they are not part of the dynamic. The think of the kids approach, while noble in a juvenile way, really ignores what a relationship is all about. In fact that is part of the stupidity that lots of people have, that could lead to cheating. But that point was lost on you. You just wanted to defend that happy marriages are better than unhappy ones. No shit.

quote:



Leaving does not always bring happiness.



No it doesn't. There are no absolutes.

Funny to hear you say that. Is cheating always wrong?

quote:



Working on the relationship does not always work.



No sometimes relationships are doomed to fail regardless of how much you work at them. That's why you let them fail, and move on.

Sometimes you can’t or don’t want to move on. Sometimes that is worse.

quote:



Leaving is not even always an option.



When isn't it?

Read babygz post. Also, maybe there is still love. Maybe she does not think she can make it on her own. Maybe it was a mistake in the heat of passion and will never happen again. Maybe it is something you never thought of.

quote:



Not everyone is looking for happiness.



No, some are looking for money, others for status, and others..... Your point?

My point is that some may find what they are looking for with cheating. You pretty much made it out to be a futile effort with your cheating does not lead to happiness comment.

quote:



And some who are may be willing to settle for less.



Too bad for them.

Yes it is, but it is very callous of you to take that attitude towards people who have had to give up on that dream.

quote:



You are seeing things as too black and white. I am not saying that cheating is the ideal thing. I am not even recommending it. But those with the Bible thumping stance are going to far.



Hmm, ok I have been sounding a bit 'black & white', but it's not that easy. And I sure as hell ain't no Bible thumper either. It depends on the situation. If the husband is an asshole and treats her like shit then I wouldn't blame her for cheating on him. But then again that marriage would be doomed anyway.

You don’t know that is not the case. Again, read babygz’s post.

quote:

There are many many great parents that have cheated.



Yep, including one of mine. And guess what? They're divorced. And things got better afterwards. They weren't happy together, and my brothers & I knew it, even though we were kids.

No absolutes, remember?

quote:



Many even after it was discovered and confessed.



There you go. We're only human, mistakes can happen. Continuing to make the same mistake will not make things better. Leaving may not make things better. The best choice is to fess up. Then it will be painfully obvious to both partners that there is a problem. If their future together is worth fixing, they will FIX IT. Actually, it is pretty black & white.

No absolutes. It sometimes works that way and sometimes not. We don’t have enough information to make that call here.

quote:



What you do know is that not having problems is better than having them, and true happiness and love are desirable.



I know as much as my experience as a 31 year old husband & father of two has taught me. I know that nobody is without problems, but some problems you can control and others you can't. Cheating doesn't make problems go away, it compounds them. Every relationship I have ever seen where a partner was cheating has turned to shit. My parents', both my brothers, a friend. Granted, the cheating itself was never the root cause of the break ups, but it sure didn't help. Cheating is a sign that there are other problems, and unless those problems are recognized and dealt with then the marriage will fail. People who are happy with each other don't cheat. Go ahead and argue with that as much as you want.

However, maybe I don't have as much experience in this matter as some of the others here, for I have never cheated on my wife nor has she on me.

I think you are missing the point. I never said cheating was a good idea and desirable. I don’t even think cindy is that hard core. But the “Bible thumpers” on the thread took the stance that both qwerty316 and babygz were evil people, babygz was a bad mom, and should never have had kids. Cheating normally does not have a positive effect on a relationship. It is usually not meant to. But often it is a part of life. A part of the lives of people who have been very good to their kids and even their spouses. There is a difference between giving advice to avoid this relationship, and the fire and brimstone sermons that were posted. It is like the difference between the Democrats that said Bill Clinton was an idiot for cheating, and the Republicans who said it meant he could not be a good President. The key here is the overreaction. A cheating is bad post is a perfectly reasonable response. Just keep in mind that life is complex and we do not have all the facts here.



-Easy





[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 09-23-2003).]

Well sounds like she's just getting a little on the side. Nothing more, nothing less. Not even that, she just kissed him. Soo... yeah. Calm down.

But I have a bone to pick with Kikey_Kikeowitz. You strike me as a rude, immature and angry person. Whether you're in love with yourself or secretly loath yourself I can't decide and don't care. quote:Funny thing, that saying.

Hippies used to follow that diligently.

Now, most of them are either dead from drug overdoses or former yuppies, and the bands they followed are rediculously rich fucks driving Mercedes Benzs.

Funny how you try to attack me instead of my points. lol, and I'm not a hippy so you're, umm, stupid? quote:Does what her husband thinks matter?

No because she's not her husband. This goes back to my argument that you can't own a woman. Seriously look at some of the things you've posted. quote:So then, you acknowledge that what she's done is wrong?

No, I made a mistake and worded that wrong. Instead of "If the husband catches you he very much has the right to beat your ass." it should be "If the husband walks in on you two he is probably going to try to beat your ass."

---

I'm not a hippy, I just accept things for what they are and deal with it. Notice how I'm not pissed off (and can spell better). You're making a relationship into a bigger thing than it is, probably because you have little experience in it. That's the bottom line.

Oh yeah. quote:But mark my fucking words, whore. Your family's going to find out about this. You won't escape scot-free.

And I hope they make it hurt.

You're a creep.

Originally posted by cross:[/quote]

But I have a bone to pick with Kikey_Kikeowitz. You strike me as a rude, immature and angry person. Whether you're in love with yourself or secretly loath yourself I can't decide and don't care. [/quote]

You don't care, yet you decided to devote an entire post to insulting me and/or debating my points?

Believe me, pal. Once you go through as much shit as I've gone through, you'll be an angry bastard, too.

quote:Funny how you try to attack me instead of my points. lol, and I'm not a hippy so you're, umm, stupid?

Funny how you fail to realize that I was adressing your point, namely your advice of 'if it feels good, do it.'

quote:No because she's not her husband. This goes back to my argument that you can't own a woman. Seriously look at some of the things you've posted.

No, you can't own a woman.

But, once again, if you're in a relationship with another person, you normally expect that person to be truthful and faithful to you.

How could you even possibly begin to think that what she did was right?

There are only three cases, in my mind, when adultery is alright.

1.)To get revenge on a partner who's already cheating

2.)If the other partner is abusive

3.)If both partners agree to it

If she falls within the three, then so be it. But I doubt she does.

She sounds like just another bored yenta to me.

quote:No, I made a mistake and worded that wrong. Instead of "If the husband catches you he very much has the right to beat your ass." it should be "If the husband walks in on you two he is probably going to try to beat your ass."

Tell me, would it be okay for the husband to cheat on his wife?

Disgregarding this case. Let's take a normal couple. Neither has been unfaithful, so far.

Is it alright for the husband to cheat all he wants? After all, you can't own a man. Well, not anymore.

Does the wife have a right to get upset?

quote: You're making a relationship into a bigger thing than it is, probably because you have little experience in it. That's the bottom line.

I've had more life experience crammed into my short time on earth than you could even possibly hope to accomplish, buddy.

Do affairs happen? Yes. They happen. No doubt.

But, the question you must ask yourself is this: just because they happen, does that make it okay?

quote:You're a creep.

Wowzers. You really hurt me with that one.

'bout goddamn time...

Ok, I'm relieved to hear that your husband is an ass... just the other night I flipped out because I was sick of playing maid/cleaning lady and I've only been at it for 6 months so I TOTALY understand a tiny little miniscule fraction of the frustration and emptiness you must feel...

To further stick my nose where it doesn't belong (but hell, this was all posted on a public forum, right?!) I think you should end your marriage... better your kids deal with divorce than the problems that will be caused when your husband finds out (Come on! Everyone finds out! Everyone knows that everyone finds out! It's not just a way to scare you, it's reality!)

Your kids will get fucked up either way... better they learn that mommy did it the right way and got a legal divorce before running to the arms of another, than they find out mommy was getting some love on the side.

Your hubby isn't setting a good example of what a loving husband should be, either beat him until he surrenders to your will, (heh) or leave the bastard. I don't have the tolerance to put up with that kind of shit for half a year, I have no idea how you have been putting up with it for 14... that mistifies... put your foot down. You shouldn't have to live the happy parts of your life in secret... why not just sort yourself out.

By the way... everything I said, I still stand by... except maybe the "i hope the whore dies" bit... that was just a knee-jerk judgement because I hate the idea of kids being hurt. So I do admit that for that I deserve your harsher judgement calls as well.

Good luck.

No kikey.. it's the truth... She lurks the boards more then I do.

quote:I was debating with Sarc. She held the position that adultery was bad for the kids and then suggested leaving. I am not saying those are the two options, I was pointing out that her position was inconsistent. You should follow the thread closer before you jump in.

How is it incosistent? You are implying that, for the kids, divorce is worse than adultery. That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, and in some cases I'm sure it's true. My opinion is that adultery would be worse. Kids would rather see their parents happy and living in two separate houses than to be together and miserable. Kids aren't stupid, they know if things aren't right with mommy & daddy. I've been following this thread since it started. Just because I haven't been posting all along doesn't mean I haven't been following. Hmmm, does that make me a troll? Feed me Spiffy!

quote:Cheating may not even be found out and if she stays things could possibly get better.

Maybe but it's unlikely. Not unless the problems that are causing her to cheat in the first place are addressed. The question is, which action would give the best chances to save the marriage, assuming she wants it saved? To just be quiet about what's gone wrong and fulfill your needs in secret, or to be open with your partner and try to figure work it out together? Nothing is guaranteed to work, it's what offers the best chances to work it out?

quote:Time apart does not always work either. Besides, cheating is not relationship therapy. It is satisfying a need that is going unsatisfied.

See above.

quote:I was defending the position that adultery=bad for the sake of the kids, but divorce is an option, is an inconsistent position.

Yes, divorce is an option, and yes it is also bad for the kids in the beginning, but ultimately will end a bad situation that will be better for everyone involved.

quote:I would further argue that kids should not be used as pawns to create or preserve relationships since they are not part of the dynamic. The think of the kids approach, while noble in a juvenile way, really ignores what a relationship is all about. In fact that is part of the stupidity that lots of people have, that could lead to cheating.

You hit that nail on the head, I agree completely.

quote:But that point was lost on you. You just wanted to defend that happy marriages are better than unhappy ones. No shit.

I think my point is getting lost on you... I'm not saying that "happy marriages are better than unhappy ones". That would be an obvious (or, if you prefer, a 'no shit') statement. My point is, you cannot save a marriage by breaking the very promises that marriage was built upon in the first place. That's like saying you can save a decrepit house by tearing out it's foundation. Won't work. No shit.

quote:Is cheating always wrong?

No... As Kikey put it:

quote:1.)To get revenge on a partner who's already cheating

2.)If the other partner is abusive

3.)If both partners agree to it

Though, I would say #2 applies to more than just a husband who is abusive. A husband who is not there for his wife, who treats her like shit, is also breaking a promise he made, to love & cherish. If that's the case then the promise of marriage is already broken. It takes two to make it work.

quote:Sometimes you can’t or don’t want to move on. Sometimes that is worse.

I don't know about that. I can't think of anything worse than having to live the rest of my life being stuck in a relationship with a woman I don't want to be with.

quote: It sometimes works that way and sometimes not. We don’t have enough information to make that call here.

True enough. Again, I'm not arguing over the specific issue at hand, being Qwerty & Babygz, but the issue of cheating in general.

quote:Read babygz post. Also, maybe there is still love. Maybe she does not think she can make it on her own. Maybe it was a mistake in the heat of passion and will never happen again. Maybe it is something you never thought of.

Maybe it's something she should sit down and talk about with her husband. Maybe she already has, and it's a lost cause. Maybe he's just a clueless man who is too wrapped up in his own shit to give his wife the attention she deserves. Maybe they'd be better off just getting a divorce, but stay living in the same house, but as roommates instead of as a couple, so they can still help out and be there full time for the kids. And don't knock that idea, for as ridiculous as it may sound I've seen it work.

quote:My point is that some may find what they are looking for with cheating. You pretty much made it out to be a futile effort with your cheating does not lead to happiness comment.

Ok, this point is lost on me. If someone finds what they are looking for with cheating, then what the hell are they doing married in the first place? It seems pretty futile to me to get married to someone, when the bonding committment that is marriage is not what they are looking for.

quote:And some who are may be willing to settle for less.

Too bad for them.

Yes it is, but it is very callous of you to take that attitude towards people who have had to give up on that dream.

So call me a callous bastard then, I've been called worse. Personally, I won't settle for anything less than that which makes me happy, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to either. Yes that's rather selfish, but I'm living my life, for me, not for my kids or anybody else. If someone does settle for less, then they are selling themselves short, and I can feel no pity for them. Sorry, but they do it to themselves.

quote:But the “Bible thumpers” on the thread took the stance that both qwerty316 and babygz were evil people, babygz was a bad mom, and should never have had kids.

Ok, the Bible thumpers were a bit extreme. I agree there. But in there defense there wasn't a whole lot of info given in the original post that started all this. After I read Qwerty's first post, I was under the impression he was involved/thinking of getting involved in an affair with a 35 year old married woman with kids. That's it. I bet there would have been a lot more support if he'd said something like "I'm thinking of getting involved with this woman. But it's a sticky situation, she's married and has kids but her husband is a jerk who is making her life miserable and I believe I can make her happy." I don't think there's a person here who would have given him shit for that. But I may be wrong, like you pointed out those bible thumpers can be rather harsh.



[This message has been edited by LutherX (edited 09-23-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by ZEbbEDY:

Jerry...Jerry...Jerry...Jerry...



Steve...Steve...Steve...Steve...Steve...

who is a Bible thumper? I don't get that statement and it keeps popping up... looking back over the replies I don't see any Bible thumping going on... what the hell am I missing?

A bible thumper is someone who judges others based on his/her own code of an absolute right and wrong.

Ok, so by that definition EVERYONE is a Bible thumper...

Do you expect anyone to judge others by SOMEONE ELSE'S code of ethics? No, how rediculous would that be... instead of using my ethics and common sense to make judgement calls I rely on what other people believe... do you see how that makes no sense?

Every intelligent person on this planet uses their own code, beliefs, common sense, to make judgements.

So you must be trying to say that a Bible thumper is anyone who judges others... well that means everyone too... everyone judges everyone else... I judge you by what you say, you judge me by what I say... we're constantly forming opinions of others in our mind... my opinion of you isn't based on the Bible... it actually has nil to do with religion or faith etc. I judge you by asking myself what I would do in your situation... that's what I base my judgements on, my personal expectations.

Face to face you'll get no verbal judgement from me, I keep it to myself as most people do. What you have to realize is that an online forum is one place where everyone feels 100% free to toss in their two cents regarding just about anything... when you post your situation here you open it up to a world of comments, both supporting and discouraging your actions... we're all judging you, some are judging you to be in the right, some are judging you to be in the wrong.... but we're ALL judging you. And guess what... you're judging us right back using your version of right/wrong.



[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-23-2003).]

quote:Ok, so by that definition EVERYONE is a Bible thumper...

Uh, no, just you and others like you. Didn't mean that in a pejorative sense, just straightforward.

quote:Do you expect anyone to judge others by SOMEONE ELSE'S code of ethics? No, how rediculous would that be...

What perplexes me is how you and others like you think it's proper and fitting to even have the gall to judge others. By any code of ethics. So this is a BBS where people spew their opinions. It is possible to do so without hurling mud.

quote:Every intelligent person on this planet uses their own code, beliefs, common sense, to make judgements.

For their own survival. Not to point fingers, or to somehow elevate themselves above others.

quote:So you must be trying to say that a Bible thumper is anyone who judges others...

Nah. Here's some genuine bible-thumping for ya: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Or something like that...

So much for my "agreeing to disagree."

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Ok, so by that definition EVERYONE is a Bible thumper...



Don't blame me if you don't like it, I didn't write the goddamn definition, I just provided it when you asked~~Thumper.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Ok, so by that definition EVERYONE is a Bible thumper...

Do you expect anyone to judge others by SOMEONE ELSE'S code of ethics? No, how rediculous would that be... instead of using my ethics and common sense to make judgement calls I rely on what other people believe... do you see how that makes no sense?

Every intelligent person on this planet uses their own code, beliefs, common sense, to make judgements.

So you must be trying to say that a Bible thumper is anyone who judges others... well that means everyone too... everyone judges everyone else... I judge you by what you say, you judge me by what I say... we're constantly forming opinions of others in our mind... my opinion of you isn't based on the Bible... it actually has nil to do with religion or faith etc. I judge you by asking myself what I would do in your situation... that's what I base my judgements on, my personal expectations.

Face to face you'll get no verbal judgement from me, I keep it to myself as most people do. What you have to realize is that an online forum is one place where everyone feels 100% free to toss in their two cents regarding just about anything... when you post your situation here you open it up to a world of comments, both supporting and discouraging your actions... we're all judging you, some are judging you to be in the right, some are judging you to be in the wrong.... but we're ALL judging you. And guess what... you're judging us right back using your version of right/wrong.



Why not actually read it this time, aye? Instead of taking out bits and using them completely out of context...

Do you even realize in calling me "and people like (me)" a Bible Thumper that you're judging me by your own code of ethics? Did the irony even occur to you?

Everyone judges everyone else, the only reason you've got a problem with me is because my opinion happens to disagree with yours... why aren't you throwing a hissy over the people who judged you and decided that you were doing the right thing? They are as guilty of casting judgement as the rest of us... the people you accuse of Bible thumping are the ones who just aren't saying what you'd like to hear.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" is all well and good, but humanity is imperfect, humanity judges. My damning you to hell is a bit of a different story though isn't it... had I said that your decisions were FAR WORSE than decisions I've made in the past and decisions I will make in the future I would be opening myself up to a world of condemnation... but I never hinted at anything like that, and as far as I'm concerned I'm as completely imperfect as you.

My imperfection doesn't hinder me from being able to recognize right and wrong and call it. And NO I won't just shut my mouth and keep my thoughts to myself because the purpose of an online community is to provide an arena for the open sharing of expression, thought, and oppinion! If you don't want to hear what people think about your life then don't post it...

I can handle the public's criticism without jumping on the "well you just don't agree with me because you're a big smelly dummy!" bandwagon... maybe I'm not such a "baby" after all?

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-23-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Why not actually read it this time, aye? Instead of taking out bits and using them completely out of context...

Do you even realize in calling me "and people like (me)" a Bible Thumper that you're judging me by your own code of ethics? Did the irony even occur to you?

Everyone judges everyone else, the only reason you've got a problem with me is because my opinion happens to disagree with yours... why aren't you throwing a hissy over the people who judged you and decided that you were doing the right thing? They are as guilty of casting judgement as the rest of us... the people you accuse of Bible thumping are the ones who just aren't saying what you'd like to hear.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" is all well and good, but humanity is imperfect, humanity judges. My damning you to hell is a bit of a different story though isn't it... had I said that your decisions were FAR WORSE than decisions I've made in the past and decisions I will make in the future I would be opening myself up to a world of condemnation... but I never hinted at anything like that, and as far as I'm concerned I'm as completely imperfect as you.

My imperfection doesn't hinder me from being able to recognize right and wrong and call it.

Still thumpin'!

oh will ya just fuckin read it, geezus... at least make an attempt at intelligent conversation instead of trying to get me into a goddamn cat fight... just pretend I'm a guy, that bullocks wouldn't work with a guy and it's not working with me either.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

oh will ya just fuckin read it, geezus... at least make an attempt at intelligent conversation instead of trying to get me into a goddamn cat fight... just pretend I'm a guy, that bullocks wouldn't work with a guy and it's not working with me either.

Oh yeah? Seems to be working pretty good so far.

Heh..*ahem* Do I know what to respond here? Very much not.

I know you can do better than that, qwerty.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

Do you even realize in calling me "and people like (me)" a Bible Thumper that you're judging me by your own code of ethics? Did the irony even occur to you?

Nope. Good point, though. Big qualitative difference however, which is again a judgement call. My "judgement" was more along the lines of "You people should consider freeing your minds a bit" whereas your judgement is more like "I'm right, you're wrong, and you suck for being wrong!"

quote:Everyone judges everyone else, the only reason you've got a problem with me is because my opinion happens to disagree with yours...

Not everyone judges everyone else. As I said, there are different kinds of judgements. When a person has seen/made a lot of fuck-ups in life and can own/acknowledge those fuck-ups, one becomes more compassionate about choices that others make. That's just where I'm coming from.

And if "babygz" or me or anyone has a "problem" with you (I don't, actually) its due to your "superiority" attitude that makes you think you "know" what's "right" when you haven't a clue.

quote:My imperfection doesn't hinder me from being able to recognize right and wrong and call it.

Now that's just an odd, contradictory phrase. "Recognize" right and wrong? As if "right" and "wrong" are absolutes which can be recognized as if out of a police line-up.

I could throw a hell of a lot of unpleasant judgements out there based on posts people have made in this forum. But where does that get anyone? Exchanging wisdom and opinions is one thing, but witch-burning is so late-17th century.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

oh will ya just fuckin read it, geezus... at least make an attempt at intelligent conversation instead of trying to get me into a goddamn cat fight... just pretend I'm a guy, that bullocks wouldn't work with a guy and it's not working with me either.



Hey, just pretend we're guys, too. Then maybe you'd give equal opposition to Easy's and Spiffy's posts, hmmmmmm?

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

oh will ya just fuckin read it, geezus... at least make an attempt at intelligent conversation instead of trying to get me into a goddamn cat fight... just pretend I'm a guy, that bullocks wouldn't work with a guy and it's not working with me either.



You know... if you can't handle this 'debate' and you get all indescript, and upset on this message board... Then I doubt you can even handle the real world.

Allthough I wish that I could have got a British Chick or German one, to come with me in the States to live.. And in the words of Snoopy....

uh... odd? qwerty, I'm pretty sure the statement you quoted was actually encouraging less emotion and more logic in your girlfriend's replies...

I must admit I'm not the least bit upset, I enjoy nothing more than a good debate, it brightens my dull and monotonous day.

Cindy, IMO you, Eyesore, and Spiffy have made the most sense in this thread... (and obviously me, because if I didn't make sense to myself I'd be pretty fucked) While I disagree with a few points in each of your replies, I still don't consider you wrong and me right... we just disagree. I'm right for me, and you're right for you, and I don't expect you to live your life according to my opinion any more than I expect myself to live by yours.

Just because everyone has a unique ideology and isn't going to agree 100% of the time doesn't mean we shouldn't feel free to express ourselves. Tomorrow I'm not even going to remember this thread, but entering into the dabate stimulated my brain, opened up new ideas, new thoughts, improved mental dexterity.

If I ever make a post and declare that I'm right, and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, then I request a mod ban my totse account permenantly. But of course I will always stand by my own opinions, as I would expect you to stand by yours.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-23-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

uh... odd? qwerty, I'm pretty sure the statement you quoted was actually encouraging less emotion and more logic in your girlfriend's replies...

(edited 09-23-2003).]

I doubt that.. your full of emotion.. so much that you flew across the world to live on an island.. and you are full of emotion on this topic.. as we all do sometimes.. just need to lighten up... as do I..

I didn't move around the world because of emotions sweetie-pie... I moved here because I didn't want to miss my own wedding. People do it every day, not everyone marries someone from their home-town you know.



[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-23-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

I didn't move around the world because of emotions sweetie-pie... I moved here because I didn't want to miss my own wedding. People do it every day, not everyone marries someone from their home-town you know.

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-23-2003).]

That doesn't make sense.. you went becuase you didnt want to miss your own wedding.. wtf? weddings and emotions kinda go together.. so again you don't make sense.

You're accusing me of being over-emotional and you're basing it on the fact that I accepted my fiance's proposal and moved to NZ where our wedding will be... Would I be less emotional if I had asked him to move to the US instead? I would prefer to live in NZ, it's much more beautiful here... I don't see how that decisions has anything to do with emotion, I prefer to live here because I consider it a better country.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

You're accusing me of being over-emotional and you're basing it on the fact that I accepted my fiance's proposal and moved to NZ where our wedding will be... Would I be less emotional if I had asked him to move to the US instead? I would prefer to live in NZ, it's much more beautiful here... I don't see how that decisions has anything to do with emotion, I prefer to live here because I consider it a better country.



You are some what ignorant, to my reasoning.. And I'm not gonna waste anymore time 'debating' over this with you....allthough i do agree that NZ Is a better country.

Well with some help from djsam I've thought about this for a long time and found a solution that will make everyone happy. Kill the children and the husband, bury them in the back yard and move in with her.

Poor children having to grow up in a broken home? Boo who who, problem solved. "I grew up with my parents fighting", everyone has a sob story. Instead of making excuses why don't you just stop being a god damn loser.

Husband's sacred trust being broken? The magical wondrous spinning flowers of a marriage? Put a fucking bullet in the bitch, the dead know only one thing; "it is better to be alive."

Get life insurance, some condoms and start a new life. Carve swastikas and peace signs into each others skin, tie her to the bed and get an abortion. No one has any balls these days.

.....Meh

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:





But mark my fucking words, whore. Your family's going to find out about this. You won't escape scot-free.

And I hope they make it hurt.

Kikey, I think you need to calm down and get a life. Apparently your own mouth isn't doing the job anymore.

quote:Originally posted by babygz:

Kikey, I think you need to calm down and get a life. Apparently your own mouth isn't doing the job anymore.

My life consists of work, school, and alcohol.

Tell me, do you have a job? Or does your husband pay the bills?

I take back what I said, though, since your husband cheated first. That makes your actions fall among my three instances when adultery is okay.

quote:Originally posted by Kikey_Kikeowitz:



I take back what I said, though, since your husband cheated first. That makes your actions fall among my three instances when adultery is okay.

Thanks for your blessing. My life is now complete.

quote:Originally posted by babygz:

Thanks for your blessing. My life is now complete.

You're welcome.

Sarc, a "bible thumper" is someone who casts severe moral judgments on others in a very loud and conspicuous manner. Maybe that'll help explain how you earned such a title in this thread.

I don't mean to single you out, but if I get started on everything, this'll take a lot more time than I'm inclined to spend on this topic right now. It's becoming a very circular debate.

I totally agree with that statement...You have no idea what that does to kids or a family as a whole. I caught my mom fucking my little sisters best friends dad. It has torn my family apart...and IF you really think you won't get caught...you will...it's inevitable. What will she tell her kids? What will you tell her kids? Doesn't matter it isnt their responsiblity to understand. They'll just know you as the guy who tore their family apart and they will never look at their mother the same. Hope you know what your doing and what the consequences will be...but have fun with it while it lasts, but someone really should give the kids a second thought.

abject apologies for not reading every last post in this thread,i might be repeating someone else's comment.

qwerty/babygz, you are certainly not the first and you won't be the last. the fact remains,you both deserve so much more than this. show each other some respect.

i am sorry to be the harbinger of doom, but some one looking for the thrill of the illicit add someone who posts their conquests on totse = emotional carwreck.

i hope the whole thing is a leg-pull.

let him who is without guilt cast the first stone........

so much volatile diatribe i can't(be bothered)to follow this thread. it was a wind up right?

Not too sure what you mean by a wind up... or a leg-pull for that matter.

But this was definitely an enlightening as well as entertaining debate, for me at least.

Just a quick comment, as someone who almost had a situation develop. Unless you are in a situation as similar, you cannot possibly make any kind of moral judgement. There usually is some other circumstance.

Judge Sarc is overturned. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/971612.asp)

(just playin Sarc)

-Easy

Dude, that's awesome. You scored, and with a MILF no less. That is the epitomy of cool. I'm kind of leaning towards that situation myself. My mom's roomate is hot as fuck.

quote:Originally posted by Easy Going:

Judge Sarc is overturned. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/971612.asp)

(just playin Sarc)

-Easy



Oh Harrr Harrrr!

Better watch out or (evidently) I will Bible thump your ass. :P

(I still have absolutely no clue what the Bible or the thumping of it has to do with any of this... why not just call me a Unpopular-Opinion Thumper? Or a Free-Thinker? I must be a free thinker because 90% of the world thinks it's a-ok to cheat on a spouse, putting me in the minority... which means I'm going against the flow... hell I must be the most open-minded person here! I know my opinions aren't exactly aligned with the majority here because ya'll just a buncha hoe-bags [hehee] but it's got jack-diddly to do with the Bible)

Hey Sarc, I guess since I brought the "Bible thumper" moniker into this thread, I should explain it. In some more intense religions, a fiery sermon from a preacher is accompanied by antics that can include beating the pulpit/podium with his Bible while he makes a point. Thus "Bible thumper." The reason why you got that label is your judgment was not nearly as open minded as you think it is. I doubt many on this thread think adultery is a virtue. They just don't overreact and they know that mitigating circumstances can exist and that good people sometimes get caught up in it. You were saying babygz was an awful mom and should not have kids before you knew any facts. Opinions like that are usually expressed with a "praise Jesus" or some shit like that.

-Easy

Bah, I didn't say God thinks she is a horrible mother... but I still do. I was raised in the church so I did understand the base meaning behind the term "Bible Thumper" from the start... my point still is that it just doesn't stick because my viewpoint isn't based on the Bible or any religious ideology... I'm living and fucking with a guy that isn't my husband, do you really believe I'd be preaching christian values?!

Look, I'm as horny as they come, and if I were in a dead-end marriage I might cheat... but not if I had kiddies. Mother Bear instinct maybe? I'd protect them from potential harm, even if my own raging and unsatisfied thirst for sexual and emotional fullfillment is the cause of harm. Blah blah blah "your expectations are too high" well I'm sorry, no they're not. As a mother it's your job description to make those kinds of sacrifices... there is no person more self-less than a good mum.

"So you expect her to just suck it up and wait until her kids are recovered from the trauma of a divorce before she fools around with someone new?!" Ooooh *ghasp* because that would be so unthinkably difficult? Adultry isn't a virtue, but patience certainly is. Things worth having are worth waiting for... and a bunch of other usefull cliche's that I can't think of at the moment...

[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 09-26-2003).]

I never said you were religious. But that opinion was just like a religious one and it needed to be made fun of.

-Easy

Edit: Good to know that you are as horny as they come.



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 09-26-2003).]

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:

I was raised in the church so I did understand the base meaning behind the term "Bible Thumper" from the start...

I can't believe I missed this in my first response. This is probably why you took your mom's adultery so hard. Religion can really fuck up a kid.

-Easy

oh, nah... not like that really. I was raised going to church, and my parents still go to church, but that's always been one of those things they've been really great about... they're thinking people and they showed me how to grow into one too, figure out my own way. Not everyone who goes to church as a kid gets brain-fucked as long as their parents are looking out for them.

Dont even bother anymore. It has been made clear that they think "Bible-thumping" (Which is conspicuously lacking the Bible...) is more dangerous to children and society than worthless marriages, boys who pose as married men, and lonely mothers who feel shitty.

Whats happenning here is what will always happen in a culture soaked in the ideas of Democracy. Though the majority was orignally intent on being a ruling force only in matters of policy, its only a matter of time, logically, before their voice is used as a measure of right and wrong. Law of falling bodies. Now, because the losers and failures will ALWAYS outnumber the strong, the Democratic conception finds ways to mock and degrade the strong. Their sheer numbers, coupled with their infantile lack of an unmoving foundation, convinces them that they are in the right.

Next thing you know, you have dumb sluts saying things like, I reply to your remarks with the life experience of a 30-year old who has been engaged 3 times, who has cheated and been cheated on. Not something I read out of a book or from what was told to me. implying that our lack of failure and pitiful ability to maintain relationships and live a life relatively free of such laughable and pitiful shortcomings is our HANDICAP. We above who naturally, could never even relate to the appetites and soulless thirst of the atrophied and ugly but popular crowd.



While Im making fun of that Cindy toootal idiot, I will cite this as well. I found it humourous and was disappointed in you Sarc. for not replying to it directly, though you may have and I could have skimmd past it. Big qualitative difference however, which is again a judgement call. My "judgement" was more along the lines of "You people should consider freeing your minds a bit" whereas your judgement is more like "I'm right, you're wrong, and you suck for being wrong!" That purely transparent hypocrisy is only a matter of semantics, and isolating that shithead comment without commentary serves my purpose well enough.

Spirit of '22, you’re a fucking moron. You missed the entire point of this thread. No one is calling adultery a virtue. Cindy has posted elsewhere that she would not cheat on a spouse. We are responded to the "Bible thumping" mentality that the wife in this situation is inherently evil, does not deserve her children, and we should wish she were dead. All of these things were posted over just a kiss, and before the facts of her situation were known. I'll say it again; you are a fucking moron for aligning yourself with that position. You are right that the majority does not agree with Sarc, but you show your stupidity when you think that means they all think adultery is a good thing. You have been here long enough to know that if you are going to voice an opinion this strong, you better have read the thread and not just skimmed over it.

-Easy

Spirit knows alot.. much of which most people do not understand... only a select few.

You are giving him too much credit. I have seen several decent posts from him, but I’ve never been that impressed. His reading comprehension in this thread is abysmal, and why the fuck are you defending him anyways? You would be included in some of his comments.

-Easy



[This message has been edited by Easy Going (edited 09-26-2003).]

I am aware of that... very aware...

Spirit! Where ya been? I've missed you.

The old cell number works now, so you can call again. The "323" area code. Sorry, I had to get it turned off temporarily, as we no doubt would have been found out.

quote:Originally posted by Spirit of '22:

...dumb sluts saying things like...

Oh, you love the dumb slut in me. That's why you took the time to carefully read my posts and skim all others, sweetie pie.



quote: While Im making fun of that Cindy toootal idiot

Now I'm confused. You said this was the "signal" for me to take off my clothes and call you, but I know your wife's in town. Call the cell when you get a chance.



[This message has been edited by deadlycindy (edited 09-26-2003).]

Are you schizophrenic or something? What the fuck was that?



Everyone elses post directed at you inspired some kind of uppity, know-it-all cosmopolitan modern bitch sharp-tongued retort. All I got was some absolutely irrelevant distracting pile of bullshit that does nothing to address either the idiocy of your first cited statement, or the blatant hypocrisy of the second.

^^Wait...you didn't use *blink*blink* but that's ok, I think I know what you mean.

When you left this morning, you told me to stay in bed and wait for further instructions, didn't you?

Hope that brawl you and the boys got into over my honor last night didn't affect your memory too much. Now I'm worried about you.

You sound like you know youre wrong but are trying to confuse and distract from this.

I've always wanted to date a woman twice my age... =)

Ok, NOW we're having an affair!!

quote:Originally posted by babygz:

Ok, NOW we're having an affair!!

BITCH CUNT SLUT HOE WHORE BITCH!

You and your husband seriously deserve to die. If there was a button I could press right now to end both of you, I would not hesitate.

Qwerty! I told you not to tell anyone!

Cheers,

Lost

What the hell happened to Cindy's and Easy's replies to my posts; or hell, my following posts (after the 'this thread is purely disheartening' post of mine)? Someone's been fucking with this thread, I think

YOU ARE THE MAN

her husband might kick your ass

and don't forget to tell the kids you fucked their mom

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

Shoulda, woulda coulda...

Life's too complicated. People are hopelessly human. Sometimes having affairs to get one's jollies is the LESSER of two evils.

Trust issues are not to be taken lightly, so I don't belittle that. But there are worse things, such as abuse and abandonment.



so fucking what if there is something worse, if i was to take advantage of a drunk chick, you could argue, "Oh well there are worse things, he could have killed her afterwards"

why can't you see that both of those things are wrong, but just because one is the lesser, doesn't make it ok. jesus H christ, what the fuck is wrong with you?

^^Nothing wrong with me. You have serious anger issues.

I'm just saying I don't consider myself so exalted that I'm somehow right in judging others.

Are you fuckers still yapping about this? Jesus.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Qwerty! I told you not to tell anyone!

Cheers,

Lost

I don't remember you telling me that? if you did I am sorry.. My memory has faded.