Last week I was caught in the middle of a really uncomfortable argument between my two closest friends who happen to be married to each other...I was asked to choose who carried the most blame if any and I am not sure what to say....Desperately need advice from a neutral party.

This is what happened...

My friends...."m" and "j" like to go into the chatrooms ...alot. they both have lots of fun.. But there is one rule....NO IMs period. J doesn't think there's anything wrong with them but his wife thinks that regardless of intentions...IMs can lead to other things like cyber sex which is a no no in her house....This debate has been going on forever...So...M decided to create a new screename...go into the chat rooms and gradually start talking to J.(anonymously) The first day she asked him to IM and he said he would but....ummmmm....(she was on their other computer just feet away)...so he basically got off line....She then realized that she came off kind of desperate so she sent him an email (under the alias) and apologized for being so forward. Oh yeah I forgot...she sent him pics of this model both proffessional and regular that she got off of a website....ok...he returned the email and said....that's ok.i didn't mean to ditch you but my wife has a problem with ims...i think they are fine but if she's around I can't IM or she'll freak out...

Later...they "just happened" to be in the same chat room again and he started talking to her....his wife was online but she was playing it off as though she was chatting in another room...after all her sname wasn't on the list...right?...so they began to chat and she said can we IM...he said ok...but if i disappear it's because trouble is lurking...

small chat began in private and then she started talking dirty...telling him she was naked and asked if he'd like for her to do anything just ask...he did...he told touch this and do this...etc. etc.....well...he told her that the next day would be a good time for them to cyber again because his wife would be at school most of the day(keep in mind...he didn't know it but he was talking to his wife)well...she continued the little sharade for 2 more days...exchanging naughty emails and fake pics(he really liked the one where the model showed off her clean shaven coochie..which he emailed her about)...she couldn't take it anymore and finally told him all about it ...he denied it and said she was psychotic...he would never do that...THEN...she started in with the details and told him..."That was me."

He got so pissed off...how could she betray him like that and set him up....So...he says she betrayed him because she set him up to fail...she says she just wanted to prove that IMs CAN lead to other things and insists that he betrayed her because he had cyber sex with who he thought was another woman...

phew....

So...what do you all think about this situation?...I'm so confused and yet I understand both sides...I just don't know how to answer their question....

Was she wrong to test him or was he wrong to fail the test when he knew how she felt....

HELP

What a retarded couple.

But I think the husband is more at fault because the wife was just showing him what would happen.

Which she proved to him.

That's called "entrapment" in most states.

Ummmm.....

If I ever found out that my guy was fooling around on the internet I would be very hurt... BUT at the same time, hmm... there is a certain harmlessness in it because of who he is and what he is like. If my guy were a real bastard and would consider cheating on me then I would break off the relationship over online indescretions... but he isn't a bastard and he wouldn't cheat on me so I think I would be more inclined to look at the situation less seriously, and move on.

It really depends on what kind of a guy your friend is, if he's decent, and trustworthy, and he just got inticed to play around with an attractive female then I would say he just fucked up, live and learn. He just needs to make sure it doesn't happen again, respecting his wife and her likes and disklikes is very important and he shouldn't be going behind her back with ANYTHING.

Now, what SHE did.... well that is a bit fucked up and it indicates that there were already trust issues there. It IS entrapment... its a very dangerous game to play. If some Chip-n-Dale started pursuing her online you think she wouldn't be interested? Believe me it feels just as good for women to have a gorgeous guy coming after them as it does for a man to be enticed by a gorgeous woman.

This is a wrong/wrong situation, they both fucked up and learned some ugly things about each other. He learned that his wife doesn't trust him, and will trick him and play wicked games... which means he can't trust her either.

She has learned that her hubby can't be trusted online, and that if a woman is forward enough that she will capture his attention.

They BOTH would have to be absolute FOOLS to think that this type of thing wouldn't happen. My advice, they stop blaming each other and realize that this would have never happened if they hadn't allowed the temptation into their homes in the first place.

It always feels GOOD when someone wants you, it makes you feel like you still "have it" especially when you're not getting that kind of attention from your partner. EVERYONE flirts online, its the one place where you can be anyone you want and no one ever has to know the truth, its like an alternate universe where you are sexy and desirable even if you're 40lbs overweight and suffer male pattern baldness... if he has flirted before it could very well have been with some bat in her 50's with 10 teeth missing and tits that sag past her bellybutton. The problem with the internet is that in most people's minds it isn't REAL... so they do some stupid things and think they'll never have any consequences to deal with... people learn the hard way that playing with fire will ALWAYS get you burned, even if it's virtual fire.

Tell them both to grow the fuck up and get out of chat rooms, christ... I haven't been to a chatroom since I was 13!!



[This message has been edited by Sarcophagus (edited 08-26-2003).]

well said

it's the freakin internet, it isn't like he went to a chics house a banged her brains out. it was harmless fun. I think the chic is wrong for even making a rule like that cause 90% of ppl in chat rooms are IMimg eahc other



Vince

quote:Originally posted by Dilate:

well said

yup.

The whole deception thing on M's part is actually worse because it was premeditated and served no purpose other than to stir up trouble. J might have stepped a bit out of line but his motivations were far more benign.

Anyone that goes looking for trouble in this manner is going to have a chronically unhappy life.

These two need to grow up or split up. Wow. This drama is played out, under various circumstances, probably a hundred times a day around the world, but still, wow.

The biggest screwup the guy made wasn't so much the simple IMing as the falling for her trick. When you're getting naked coochie shots in less than a week, there's some bullshit happening. This isn't to say he should have deduced it was her, but he should have realized this was very possibly someone playing games with him. Then, of course, there's lying about it afterward, but in his defense, if she jumped him out of nowhere with the accusation, his initial reaction would be to say no, it never happened. That doesn't make it ok, just more understandable, especially when dealing with someone who's trying to impose a rule like a mother hen.

Setting someone up is never, ever cool, unless you have reason to believe they're already breaking whatever rule. The fact he initially resisted would strongly support him if he says he's never done anything like that before. With that possibility out of the way, what the hell did she expect? This is obviously a woman who has never taken the time to pay attention and try to figure out how most guys work at the basic level. Friendly female attention will not be jettisoned simply because of a house rule that the guy doesn't agree with. Keeping himself out of deeper water is his responsibility, and in this case he didn't do that. But again, in his defense, he has no experience dealing with people in 1-on-1 chat situations, so he has nothing to draw on in order to determine the likelihood that what he's being told is a lie.

The key point here is that she planned it, started it, and went through with it. He got set up. If she had just flirted with him in a room and tried to induce him into IMing her first, even that wouldn't have been as bad, because that would have been easier for him to shrug off. What happened was a totally unrealistic scenario of her creation, which cannot be rightfully used to represent how he's liable to act under normal circumstances.

If you get involved, I strongly suggest pulling her aside and carefully explaining this to her. What she did, regardless of the result and what she feels it "proves", will have no long-term effect except to drive him further away from what she wants and make him less trustworthy because he won't give a shit what that asshole bitch wife of his thinks. Things will degrade from here, perhaps rapidly, unless she makes the first *sincere* apology for putting him in an unfair situation. If he's a halfway decent guy, he should then apologize for breaking the rule, he should have known better, etc. Should they fail to understand this, something involving online chat, their relationship will probably fall apart soon enough.

Then again, that may be for the best.

this seems like it should have come from middle school kids. and yeah, who the hell still goes to chatrooms religiously?

okay, so the guy was just... well... he was just being a guy. (he probably doesn't get enough in the bedroom) it's understandable that he let it go on for a little bit, but with his wife a couple feet away? oh, and he lied about it too. that's not a good thing.

but the GIRL... the girl obviously has a problem with trust. she WAS setting this guy up to fail and was WAY too sneeky about it- it shouldn't have gone on as long as it did. something like 2 days, you said? my GOD.

the girl is more to blame. he DID say no at first, right? she shoulda stopped there. damn... i hate when people sit there and just WAIT for you to do something wrong...

she seems a bit crazy. she set him up, ambushed him, entrapped him, whatever you want to call it.

he broke a rule, given it was a stupid one, but a rule nonetheless.

their both at fault. best advice for you is to tell them you don't want to get in the middle of it. tell them to leave you out of their problems. they'll work it out themselves.

I happen to know these people, and I know why she may have been so sneaky. Her, as in M's) cousin recently met a religious sort of guy who seemed to be the man of her dreams. She married him when she was 17 and he was 20. Anyway, they got married and had a child. Before the baby turned 6 months old, he left them both. Just like that! At the drop of a hat. And the reason behind his decision was.....He met "the woman of his dreams on line". And it just so happened in a chatroom, in which they started Iming each other.

NOW!!! They both knew about this ordeal that had happened. Does this change anything? In either J or M's story?

no. it changes nothing.

I appreciate all the replies...I guess it's unanimous...she's an evil bitch and he's the victim...I do understand her paranoia but just because she has a problem with IMs and cyber sex doesn't mean he should refrain from either.. Afterall he is an adult and he shouldn't have to miss out on the wonderful little fantasy world that is the internet just because she is insecure....Thanks again for all the input.

quote:Originally posted by LwaysTired:

I happen to know these people, and I know why she may have been so sneaky. Her, as in M's) cousin recently met a religious sort of guy who seemed to be the man of her dreams. She married him when she was 17 and he was 20. Anyway, they got married and had a child. Before the baby turned 6 months old, he left them both. Just like that! At the drop of a hat. And the reason behind his decision was.....He met "the woman of his dreams on line". And it just so happened in a chatroom, in which they started Iming each other.

NOW!!! They both knew about this ordeal that had happened. Does this change anything? In either J or M's story?

Assuming J knew about this, then it should change things in theory. This, however, remains trumped by the fact that she set him up in what was a totally unrealistic situation (key term). The simple fact is that she appears to badly need a strong dose of perspective.

Um that type of problem sounds like total break-up material to me. She can't trust him, which is enough to break up a relationship anyway, and he can't trust her, because he's been visciously decieved by her. So it's total lose/lose and they're both at fault, although if you had to pick of course the guy is more at fault.

If these people were my friends and they wanted my opinion, that would be a great time to need a piss and not return!

If they are both your friends, then they shouldn't have you pick a side.

But...I would say that the wife is more at fault...Entrapment was employed there...She started it and sent him naked pics of a model and persuaded him to cyber with her...She deserves what he did.

That's what i think anyways!

quote:Originally posted by AlwayzHving2SaySorry:

I appreciate all the replies...I guess it's unanimous...she's an evil bitch and he's the victim...I do understand her paranoia but just because she has a problem with IMs and cyber sex doesn't mean he should refrain from either.. Afterall he is an adult and he shouldn't have to miss out on the wonderful little fantasy world that is the internet just because she is insecure....Thanks again for all the input.



UmMmmmmm Noooooo.... Not quite sure how you got the idea that anything you just said was "unanimous" because quite a few people said nothing along the lines of "she's an evil bitch and he's the victim." If he's the victim of anything it is his own stupidity... only a fool would fall into such an obvious trap. He made a mistake by going against his wife's (very reasonable) wishes, that is blatant disrespect. It wouldn't have killed him to say "Ok honey, I know that you feel strongly about this, and it isn't too much to ask of a grown man to not fool around in chat rooms" and that would've been that.

And she's not an "evil bitch" either, I take from one of the posts above that she's been through a bad experience and is a bit paranoid. She's not evil but she DID make a mistake, you can't go through life holding new lovers responsible for past lover's mistakes. Just because her ex ran off with someone he met online doesn't mean that her current husband will too, she should learn to better differentiate between the two men. Of course NOW because of her current husband's stupidity he's sort of given himself the same rap as the last guy. His knowledge of the previous situation should have given him enough of a clue to stay WELL AWAY from anything online.

It looks like you're only hearing what you want to hear, why? Were you on his 'side' to begin with? Or is the story really about you?

Like I said to begin with, any adult who gets their kicks from chat rooms needs a fuckin life...

By the way, if you flipped this situation around on its head:

Guy's wife runs away with internet fling.

Guy finds new girl, marries.

Guy is paranoid about online intimacy, asks new wife not to mess around online.

Wife grudgingly agrees to little rule.

Guy does "testing" to see if his wife will actually respect his little rule.

Wife fails.

Now under THESE circumstances you'd hear nothing but wailing and nashing of teeth about "what a HUGE SLUT the wife was and how could she betray her husband like that, especially after what he's been through!"

In a situation like this you have to look at it from all sorts of different perspectives to get a clear picture of what went wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Sarcophagus:



It looks like you're only hearing what you want to hear, why? Were you on his 'side' to begin with? Or is the story really about you?

Like I said to begin with, any adult who gets their kicks from chat rooms needs a fuckin life...

Actually, I totally agree with you in all aspects of your reply...the comment I made before was in sarcasm. I was however surprised at the amount of blame that most of the replyees put on her...Not to say she was right in doing what she did but obviously there was a reason why she didn't trust him to follow that rule. Something told her he didn't respect her feelings in regards to this rule and she was right. Afterall..her rule was no IMs...he not only broke the IM rule but he took it even further and had cybersex...she is devastated and I understand why. For many people cybersex is no big deal but when it comes to a marriage it is looked at a little differently by most couples...In her case she does feel like he cheated on her and I'd be pissed too...She showed me the logs

That's a bunch of crap!! She set the whole thing up where she would accept nothing less than his failure. She came on to him abnormaly strong and he refused her every advance. In fact, others in the chatroom took an interest and told her she was being inappropriate, that he had already explained he was married....as far as to say "Now I know why women can't trust other women". He told her he was married and left the chat room. She then proceeded to send these provocative as well as naked photographs and continued to send him these Im's. Constantly hounding him for days, bombarding this poor ass with pictures of "the girl of his dreams" as she would often say. She pushed it much further than anyone under normal cicumstances would do. In no way should he have done any of the shit she told him not to. He was definately in the wrong. But she was undoubtedly WAY MORE WRONG THAN HE EVER WAS!!...or would've been.

Where are you getting your information from LwaysTired??

You obviously are dilusional...yes, she was wrong and yes she was more aggressive than normal but, she didn't even send any naked pics until the day after they met in the chat room. when he IMed her regardless of his wife's disapproval...He even told her...My wife doesn't approve of IMs but I don't think anything is wrong with them and she was here that day so that's why I got offline without IMing or saying goodbye. but we can IM and if i disappear it's cause trouble is lurking.

Only after he saw her online (and he went online under a different screen name so that his wife wouldn't see him on her buddy list)

and they began IMing did she send him "naked pics"...the day before she had sent him 3 pics..1 with the girl in bikini and 2 face shots.....

so he broke the rule before she had sent him porn shots....

I'm still frowning at the lady M. Chicks like that give the rest of us chicks a bad name.

Who better knows J than M, online? M knew exactly what to say to get J to break the rules. She knows his intimate secrets and the certain specific words, descriptions and situations that would arouse him. I bet those words are unique, too, and J was no doubt thrilled that another mystery woman could tap into his exact desires so well. Too bad guys can't think logically with an erection.

If M asked a friend to approach J online, with no knowledge of his intimate preferences, I doubt she, or any other woman, would have had the same power to seduce him.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

I'm still frowning at the lady M. Chicks like that give the rest of us chicks a bad name. Who better knows J than M, online? M knew exactly what to say to get J to break the rules. She knows his intimate secrets and the certain specific words, descriptions and situations that would arouse him. I bet those words are unique, too, and J was no doubt thrilled that another mystery woman could tap into his exact desires so well. Too bad guys can't think logically with an erection. If M asked a friend to approach J online, with no knowledge of his intimate preferences, I doubt she, or any other woman, would have had the same power to seduce him.

Amen to that!!

Sarc, if the situation was reversed, the guy would be a giant asshole.

quote:Originally posted by AlwayzHving2SaySorry:

she didn't even send any naked pics until the day after they met in the chat room.

Again, the day after is insane. No one drops naked pics on someone that quick unless they're full of shit. The guy is an idiot, yes, but it's extremely fucked up to declare someone untrustworthy based on such an unrealistic scenario. There's a difference between being a moron and screwing up badly... if anything, this wife should be concerned about him being duped into something much more than him trying to bag a chick online.

quote:Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:

Sarc, if the situation was reversed, the guy would be a giant asshole.

Again, the day after is insane. No one drops naked pics on someone that quick unless they're full of shit. The guy is an idiot, yes, but it's extremely fucked up to declare someone untrustworthy based on such an unrealistic scenario. There's a difference between being a moron and screwing up badly... if anything, this wife should be concerned about him being duped into something much more than him trying to bag a chick online.

Actually....my husband got a naked pic from a hoochie he met online the very first day they chatted......

spread eagle webcam pic...

and yes my husband continued chatting with her for awhile...well until i came back from texas...(i was gone for a week)and saw the pic and emails....so YES....this does happen.

quote:Originally posted by deadlycindy:

I'm still frowning at the lady M. Chicks like that give the rest of us chicks a bad name.

Who better knows J than M, online? M knew exactly what to say to get J to break the rules. She knows his intimate secrets and the certain specific words, descriptions and situations that would arouse him. I bet those words are unique, too, and J was no doubt thrilled that another mystery woman could tap into his exact desires so well. Too bad guys can't think logically with an erection.

If M asked a friend to approach J online, with no knowledge of his intimate preferences, I doubt she, or any other woman, would have had the same power to seduce him.



I agree with you that she was wrong to do that..but, it was not the first time he'd broken the rule, so if she's paranoid it's not because he hasnt given her reason to be.