I want to know what you think of this. Here is an article that bluntly lays out the present agenda of Israel's ruling party government.

Likud Convention Opens With Five Motions By "Jewish Leadership"

Excerpts - "The Likud charter currently calls for "persistence in settling and developing all parts of the Land of Israel, and annexing them." The motion calls to add these words: "actualization of our sovereignty on the Temple Mount and speeding up settlement efforts in Yesha."

Translation: Land of Israel and Yesha = occupied territories.

The Palestinians are actually fighting for their existance on the last piece of land left to them. The PLO has already officially recognized the Israel of the 67 borders, but it is Israel that does not recognize the Palestinians and want to take more land.

I think this statement is highly interesting -

"5) We wish to "strengthen the hands" of Jonathan Pollard, and call upon the government to act firmly to bring about his release and take all measures - including military - to bring about the release of IDF prisoners, and call to ban all Likud MKs except for the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister from setting foot on American soil until Pollard is freed."


Jon Pollard was an Israeli spy convicted in the US of espionage. The Israeli government denied any ties to him and denied that Israel has spies working in the US. Now they want him released and want to use "all measures" against the US to release him.


After reading this, can anyone seriously tell me, with a straight face, that Israel is merely fighting for it's existance against the terrorist aggressors and are willing to end the occupation and give freedom to the Palestinians as long as they just stop suicide bombing? It looks rather clear here... they want to annex all the land and push the Palestinians out. This is colonial expansion.

With a straight face I can tell you that it�s not only colonial warfare, but also apartheid (and minor things like habitual and constant violations of UN resolutions).

This has been going on since the state of Israel was founded. But I can�t recall an earlier Israeli government so determined at provoking the Palestians, the already hostile states that surround Israel, and the UN.

And now they seem determined to provoke USA as well. The only (almost) loyal supporter they have (left). That seems almost suicidal, considering the unstable state of the world in general right now. And more important for Israel, the growing threat from the Islamists, and from Saddam Hussein, who is already outraged by their actions.

It has been said that Bush has put more pressure on Israel to stop the aggressions etc. A Swedish politcal commentator even spoke about "more severe pressure than ever before" from USA. If that is true, could the Israeli government�s decision to try to get the spy freed, be some kind of counter action; a way to show that they are not satisfied with Bush�s approach?

Going back to the earlier issue: I wonder what would have happened if the other apertheid nation, South Africa (before the revolution), had started a occupation war on their neighbours...

FoxLeonard

Well, first of all, there is no "Palestine". But you are partially correct because the Israelis want the Palestinians gone completely. The "Palestinian land" has already been conquered by Israel.

Other than that, I really don't give a rat's ass about Israel and the Palestinians. Their Holy Land battles are so asanine and I just love it when they mutually destroy each other.

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Other than that, I really don't give a rat's ass about Israel and the Palestinians. Their Holy Land battles are so asanine and I just love it when they mutually destroy each other.

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If you pay taxes, you should. Israel gets billions of tax dollars a year, and is requesting 10 billion more.

Well, we shouldn't give them jack fuckin' shit cause they don't appreciate it. Take away the money, let them blow each other up, and sit back and watch while Geraldo covers it on the news.

A good article, but...

It�s only the desires of the Likud Party. You would have the same effect if Democrats said they wanted to stomp a particular group of people. It�s not the Republicans, Independents or any other party, just the Democrats.

This one party is rather harsh in some ways:

�nullify the Oslo Accords and kill the murderers and those who send them, including Arafat�
�implement wartime practices with the Palestinian enemy�

These are understandable, considering the actions of the PLO and it�s constituents.

�legislate into law an "Autonomy Law" regulating the status of locations in Israel populated by non-citizens�
This one, though loosely worded, is rather bad. It�s political speak for �racial relocation�. Some what like what happened to the American Indians.

�provide aid to Arabs of Yesha who wish to escape the tragedy brought upon them by their terrorist leadership and begin new lives somewhere else�

Sounds nice, but it�s more of the same.


�We call for drastic cuts in public spending, a gradual end to American financial aid, an end to foreign labor, a 50% cut in Knesset and government salaries, and other economic measures�

Some very smart moves on their part.


I know what you are looking for TheMouse. But, I�m sensible. So�I agree, not all Israelis are peaches and cr�me. And maybe this is the sentiment of more than just this group. At this point, I still think the Palestinians are the greater of two evils.

On the other hand, I could just rant and try and bolster my position of the debate�but that would be just�too�farwah.

Thats your opinion and yours alone

Know your history, knowledge is power.

Until the war of '67 the Gaza strip was Egyptian territory and the West Bank belonged to Jordan. It was never palestinian territory.
palestinians originate from what is now Iran and settled in Israel after cruising the middle east looking for a place to stay after everyone (persians,syrians etc.) beat the shit out of them, raped their goats and ate their wifes (or the other way around, depends on what part of the middle east you are in).

They were discriminated against and fucked up seriously long before '67 by the Egyptian and Jordan authorities, nobody seems to like them very much.

I wonder why....

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Originally posted by bongofury:
Know your history, knowledge is power.

Until the war of '67 the Gaza strip was Egyptian territory and the West Bank belonged to Jordan. It was never palestinian territory.
palestinians originate from what is now Iran and settled in Israel after cruising the middle east looking for a place to stay after everyone (persians,syrians etc.) beat the shit out of them, raped their goats and ate their wifes (or the other way around, depends on what part of the middle east you are in).

They were discriminated against and fucked up seriously long before '67 by the Egyptian and Jordan authorities, nobody seems to like them very much.

I wonder why....

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Back this up, Jewboy.

Here you can find a compilation of "cleansed" Palestinian villages.

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in a position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs..." Vladimir Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall, 1923.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985

"A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing."Vladimir Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923.

"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A Solution to the Refugee Problem" Joseph Weitz, Davar, September 29, 1967, cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mevinsky, eds., Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I don't blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, .The Arab villages are not there either. Nahal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibat; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kfar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al Shuman. There is not one single place that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan's address to the Technion, Haifa (as Quoted in Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969).


I should really have been checking this forum more often - I should have known that some Jew would splatter a bunch of lies and disinformation all over it.

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It�s only the desires of the Likud Party.

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Erm.. the Likud Party is the one in power.

The so-called 'Occupied Territories' are Israeli territory, since they were captured in war. The wars were mostly started by one of the countries surrounding Israel, who underestimated the speed of Israeli mobilisation. Most countries are only the size they are due to occupying territories - its only wrong if it's Israel doing it apparently.
Look at the UN resolutions that Israel is ignoring - they are blatantly anti-israel. True, Arafat has said he will stop the terrorism, and has spoken out against it. The problem is that the terrorism has not stopped. Either he is not actually trying to stop it or he has no control.
Why are the suicide bombers not blowing themselves up in Jordan? Up untl the British invaded, the Jordan river ran through palestine, and therefore Jordan is part of where Palestine was.
Most of the land occupied by Jews before 1948 was bought off palestinians cheap, because it was desert - when Israel was created in 1948 it was more the 70% desert.

I feel that a palestinian state should have been created long ago, within the 1967 borders of Israel - the Sinai desert to be precise.

Jordan and Egypt were never attacked by Palestinians for having their land. Why not? B/c it never belonged to Palestinians. They decided to attack Israel and tried to claim the Egyptian and Jordanian lands. Even after they were offered 98% of it.
I only saw attacks start after Israel was attacked and took land conquered in the wars. Israel would never have had the land if it wasn't attacked.

And Israel is the only place willing to accept them in the land. No Arab countries are willing to take them in.

[This message has been edited by wolfhound (edited 12-06-2002).]

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The so-called 'Occupied Territories' are Israeli territory, since they were captured in war. The wars were mostly started by one of the countries surrounding Israel, who underestimated the speed of Israeli mobilisation.

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Wrong. Israel had a bit of a "preemptive strike" and "covert aggression" game going on

Read about Israel's covert aggression here

In his diary, Sharett quotes a conversation with Army Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan in May 1955:

"We face no danger at all of an Arab advantage of force for the next 8-10 years...Reprisal actions which we couldn't carry out if we were tied to a security pact are our vital lymph...they make it possible for us to maintain a high level of tension in our population and in the army. Without these actions we would have ceased to be a combative people... "

Sharett concludes: "The state.... must see the sword as the main if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no it MUST invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."

Second, if they are not occupied territories and actually belong to Israel now, Israel should annex the land and give the inhabitants equal rights. Agree? Otherwise, it's occupied territory, no matter how much you spin it.

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Most countries are only the size they are due to occupying territories - its only wrong if it's Israel doing it apparently.

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List the countries that are now occupying territory and keeping another people under military occupation. The list better come out to over 50% of the countries of the world.

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Look at the UN resolutions that Israel is ignoring - they are blatantly anti-israel.

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"anti-Israel" That one makes me laugh. If Israel's violating some international law (SUCH AS THE LAW AGAINST SETTLING YOUR POPULATION ONTO OCCUPIED TERRITORY) and makes a resolution against them, Israel whines about antisemitism. Fuck their whining. At least they aren't threatened with invasion for ignoring the UN like Iraq is. They get a free pass.

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True, Arafat has said he will stop the terrorism, and has spoken out against it. The problem is that the terrorism has not stopped. Either he is not actually trying to stop it or he has no control.

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Israel doesn't do a thing about the fanatic Talmudist settlers who brutalize and harass Palestinians. Israel isn't dismantling it's settlements - they're expanding them! As long as Israel proceeds in a manner which shows the Palestinians that they are after land, not peace, Palestinians have no obligation to stop resisting Israel's expansion, in my opinion.

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Why are the suicide bombers not blowing themselves up in Jordan?

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This is a stupid question. Show me where Jordan has systematically demolished Palestinian homes to make "Jordanese-only" settlments on their land or killed thousands of Palestinians.

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Up untl the British invaded, the Jordan river ran through palestine, and therefore Jordan is part of where Palestine was.

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And Jordan never kept millions of people under brutal military occupation for decades, or maybe the Palestinians would be blowing themselves up at Jordan!

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Most of the land occupied by Jews before 1948 was bought off palestinians cheap, because it was desert - when Israel was created in 1948 it was more the 70% desert.

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Wrong. Most of Israel was meditarranean climate. They made a living tending to herds, growing olive trees and oranges. The JNF (Jewish National Fund) exploited a loophole from the Ottoman laws that allowed them to buy huge pieces of property from absentee landlords. They didn't buy it straight from the people living on the land. Even after that, the Zionists were only able to purchase about 6% of the land. They drove the most of the other Palestinians out and confiscated the land.

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I feel that a palestinian state should have been created long ago, within the 1967 borders of Israel - the Sinai desert to be precise.

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How charitable of you to think they should have gotten some desert while Israel confiscates the fertile land and water. I feel that a Jewish State should have been created a long time ago too - on Mars.

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Originally posted by wolfhound:
Jordan and Egypt were never attacked by Palestinians for having their land. Why not? B/c it never belonged to Palestinians. They decided to attack Israel and tried to claim the Egyptian and Jordanian lands. Even after they were offered 98% of it.
I only saw attacks start after Israel was attacked and took land conquered in the wars. Israel would never have had the land if it wasn't attacked.

And Israel is the only place willing to accept them in the land. No Arab countries are willing to take them in.

[This message has been edited by wolfhound (edited 12-06-2002).]

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Two of your "points" addressed above.

The last "point" of yours refuted here - Jordan has actually taken in a great number of Palestinians. However, they are a poor country and can't accept millions of refugees.

If Israel wants to expand their territory, the responsibility for the people who live on that territory lies with Israel.

If I steal someone's home, it's my fault if the former owner is homeless and angry, not his neighbors. To say otherwise is a pathetic cop-out of responsibility.