Did we bring the wrath of Islamic Jihad on ourselves? Please put your opinions here. But nothing evasive like, "Oh the deaths of thousands is just awful but still we should..." Just yes or no answer.

Islamic Jihad is a militant Palestine group that wasn't responsible for 9/11.

yes you did.
i am sorry to sound cold but the picture that we recieve in england is this.

Mr bush says that he wants to fight for a "free world" yet anyone that goes against him will be "crushed" as he put it on september the 13th. two days after the attack

we see a horrific "yet somewhat like vietnam" bombing campaign where it is costing the american "average jo" a fuck load to kill just one SUSPECTED terrorirst in afghanistan. so after Mr bush has had his fun he passed it on to the "northern alliance."

AHA we say. we gave it to the good guys. but then we look at the tora bora (i think that is what they are) tunnels that we dug for the taliban in the cold war and realise that maybe these good guys will fuck us over in 10 years. but never mind, that will only be written in the blood of the every day american citizen.

then to add insult to injury, that giant cunt Mr Bush, slams the actions of india and pakistan as they bomb one another. the reason is that they are killing innocent people.

hmmmm does that mean Mr Bush = Terrorist...................


[This message has been edited by piggarro99 (edited 07-18-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
Islamic Jihad is a militant Palestine group that wasn't responsible for 9/11.

---

I didn't mean the militant group named Jihad. I meant the term for "holy war" or "All Out Struggle" Sorry I should have clarified that

piggarro99, you can't argue people desrve to suffer because their retaliation would be bad. That's like saying some kid deserved to be raped because the father killed the rapist in retaliation.

If you're going to argue America brought 9/11 on itself, at least say what America did before 9/11 to deserve it.

Mouse, don't be so pedantic.

when i went on the net a few days after the attack, i heard an american say....

"i didnt know that we were hated so much"

i know that this is only part of a propaganda machine that will let the friends of the us through, but i still think that 95 percent of the amircan population should open their eyes to the stupidity of they and there fellow people...

it is due to this attittude of "we are the champions of the world" that american citizens had to be shown that they are nothing more or less that anyone else.

i do not agree with the actions taken by the "bad guys" but it certainly proved a point.

and just like in vietnam america has looked silly. although we hear things on the news, isnt it funny that we find a new arms cache every time someone stands up in parliment and damns the whole integrity of "operation rhino"

open your eyes america and fucking snap out of it. you have bitten off more than you can chew..

"fuckoffandie" does have a point but the fact remains that while you have a prick that is ridiculed by the whole of the western world and most of america running the country, then you will not solve anything.

only one person in england thinks the world shines out of dubya bushes arse and sadly that is tony blair

America did this

Indochina - 2 million
Vietnam - 2 million
Iraq 1.5 million
Indonesia - 1 million
Southeast Asia - 2 million
Guatemala - 80,000
El Salvador 50,000
Hungary - 30,000
India - 16,000

All non military

Yes

Peace Reneagade

To add to above

General Ramsey Clark of the American army once said

"The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own goverment"

Peace Renegade,

Which of the above civilian deaths was Osama Bin Laden avenging?

[This message has been edited by FuckOffandDie (edited 07-19-2002).]

Any Muslim ones. I see Iraq on that list.

Did the 2,823 dead and the wounded deserve to die like that as well?

the question in hand was,

did we deserve the attack

we have now digressed through about 8 different topics...

The question was answered by expressing the deaths caused by american people. If maybe they had not of caused so much pain and anguish its quite possible september the 11th would of been quite a normal day in america.

Peace Renegade,

And how did those people deserve it? That's what i'm trying to get at. And the people from other countries that got killed as well did they deserve it?

By most people's rational then, if your family was killed that day, or if you were, then you deserved to die for America's actions.

"The way of the world is force" - Joe Boo

every person has the right to leave a country. and every person (except those that are criminal) has the right to vote.

if the moajority of the people vote for a man that goes on to enrage people and cause wars then they deserve the punishment that they receive.

also if someone chooses to stay in a country which has thoughts or leaders that they do not agree with then they too surely deserve what they recieve.

as a nation the people are all to blame and blame all at the same time...

Yes.

WHOS YA DADDY!?!?

-Chibi

-YA DADDY!

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
"The way of the world is force" - Joe Boo

---

Yep, so stop your crying about our fight in afghanistan

quote:

---

Originally posted by piggarro99:
every person has the right to leave a country. and every person (except those that are criminal) has the right to vote.

if the moajority of the people vote for a man that goes on to enrage people and cause wars then they deserve the punishment that they receive.

also if someone chooses to stay in a country which has thoughts or leaders that they do not agree with then they too surely deserve what they recieve.

as a nation the people are all to blame and blame all at the same time...

---

By your rational then there are no innocent people then

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChibiMiko:
Yes.

WHOS YA DADDY!?!?

-Chibi

-YA DADDY!

---

I know your daddy. I could tell you but you might get mad

quote:

---

Yep, so stop your crying about our fight in afghanistan

---

I never cried about your fight in Afghanistan. I'm just laughing at you because it was futile.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
I never cried about your fight in Afghanistan. I'm just laughing at you because it was futile.

---

Mouse, Your looking at the news for SOVIET fighting in afghanistan. which was going on while you were a toddler.

quote:

---

every person has the right to leave a country. and every person (except those that are criminal) has the right to vote.
if the moajority of the people vote for a man that goes on to enrage people and cause wars then they deserve the punishment that they receive.

also if someone chooses to stay in a country which has thoughts or leaders that they do not agree with then they too surely deserve what they recieve.

as a nation the people are all to blame and blame all at the same time...

---

Bullshit.

So every time a candidate wins an election, there should be a mass exodus of the people who didn't vote for him? And where are these people going to go? Everyone has a right to leave a country (except those who can't afford to, but who cares about them)... but that doesn't mean they have a right to live somewhere else, as governments usually aren't too keen on accepting millions of refugees. I don't agree entirely with any government in the world today, and wouldn't vote for any of them. Does this mean that I should live in international waters or share collective responsibility for my government's actions and expect to be "punished"?

Besides, Osama Bin Laden didn't bomb the WTC because Americans voted for George W Bush.

Incidentally, piggarro, what country do you live in? I'm just trying to see what world events today are your fault

we should not look to deeply into a subject we have no control over.

the truth is that if you are in a country paying your taxes for a government that you dont like then you are funding a person that has beliefs that you do not share.

so in the end you are paying for what you do not want.
i did not say that everyone should, but i did say that everyone has the right to do so...

i live in england and realise that it is my fault for letting madonna live as long as she has.

can you forgive me???

quote:

---

Your looking at the news for SOVIET fighting in afghanistan. which was going on while you were a toddler.

---

No, I'm talking about now.

YES, and I have some reasonable evidence.

The US budget. Out of something like a trillion and a half dollars we spend, TOTAL, a paltry 600 million on international aid.

Guess how much of that goes to the Isreali Military? 270 million.

Half.

Every time a bullet shell or bomb killed someone in palestine. it ahs made in USA on it.

YES, and I have some reasonable evidence.

The US budget. Out of something like a trillion and a half dollars we spend, TOTAL, a paltry 600 million on international aid.

Guess how much of that goes to the Isreali Military? 270 million.

Half.

Every time the Israeli army goes out their gear says made in USA.

quote:

---

"yet somewhat like vietnam"

---

piggarro99 you made references to vietnam on multiple occasions. Comparing the events that took place in the vietnam war to the war on terrorism is like comparing...

Rossie O'Donnel to Carmen Electra

And mister Spock you space cadet, you wrote that 270 is half of 600 million. I hate to burst your bubble but it is not.

vietnam was a war that was waged against people who thought differently.

it was a large waste of money and achieved nothing except the ridiculing of america.

what is the difference between the vietnam war and the war on terror.

i dont think that rosie o donnol is fit at all but the two wars are almost the same...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr Spock:
YES, and I have some reasonable evidence.

The US budget. Out of something like a trillion and a half dollars we spend, TOTAL, a paltry 600 million on international aid.

Guess how much of that goes to the Isreali Military? 270 million.

Half.

Every time a bullet shell or bomb killed someone in palestine. it ahs made in USA on it.

---

And those American civilians killed by Soviet weapons. Do we go to Russia over that? Does American civilians deserve to be killed by terrorists on the account of the Government's polices concerning the Middle East? If so, then innocent civilians killed by Israelis deserved it on Arafat's account of not doing jack shit to stop terror? Please give a response instead of ignoreing this

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
No, I'm talking about now.

---

Funny how different our attack and the Soviets differ between Futility (USSR) and having a majority support and a real purpose.

As individuals, no, the victims of sep 11 didnt deserve it. Well, I don't know, maybe some of them did. Its not like I kept tabs on them prior to the attack (or afterwards for that matter). As a nation, yes, the USA deserved it like a starving horny naked moron needs brains, clothes food and sex. The USA has had a self-serving and horribly inconsiderate foriegn policiy ever since it has been important enough as a nation for anyone to pay attention to its foreign policy (i.e. post-versailles). Its active attempts to start a 'second hand battle' in the middle east during the cold war years by fostering and supplying an arms race, and later its attempts to gain control of the area for the oil that it so desperately relies on, with little regard for the people living in the area (as an aside, more iraqis have been killed by US and UN sanctions than japanese were killed in hiroshima - W.H.O estimates 500 000) means that some people were eventually going to be very, very pissed off. These were predominantly the people who had been continaully fucked in the arse in their own countries as a result of US greed. Afghanis, who had first the soviet-backed tribal warlords, and then the CIA backed taliban (they made sure it was someone the soviets hated, beyond this they didnt care all that much) palestineans (half their country gone, several million refugees living in camps in Jordan, Syria to this day) and many other peoples have every right to be incensed at the actions of the United States. It was in the post

I agree with guevara, the people who died in 9/11 did not diserve to die. They died for the US's mistakes and they didn't diserve it. However the US as a country did diserve.

quote:

---

Originally posted by guevara:
As a nation, yes, the USA deserved it like a starving horny naked moron needs brains, clothes food and sex. The USA has had a self-serving and horribly inconsiderate foriegn policiy ever since it has been important enough as a nation for anyone to pay attention to its foreign policy (i.e. post-versailles).

---

An example of this self-serving and horribly inconsiderate foreign policy includes such examples as the Battle of Coral Sea, Battle of New Guinea, et al. Yes, self serving, yes yes yes.

By the way, maybe you can help me out on this, Just exactly what did the US get for the loss of life at the Battle of Coral Sea and the Battle of New Guinea? What we didn't get was/is any respect from you.

Nox

It's no coincedence that those who oppose the war against terror have neither a better solution of any sort. Only the same ranting that we are wrong for preventing attacks and protecting the populace.

Joe Boo: I can't quite fully answer your question, because I don't know how the palstinian state (if you can really say there is one, works.

I do know, however, that theoretically in the US, the it is a goverment run BY and FOR the people. Theoretically then, along the same lines, every citizen who votes is somewhat connected to the decision on how our foreign policy is run. The public has never shown much interest in our policy in the middle east, in effect the public CONDONED how we did our buisness there. So yes, as citizens they all had a hand in it. On the flipside those who didn't vote, theoretically, are somewhat guilty of refusing their responsibilities to make theri opinion heard, and were therefore also condoning public policy.

For better or worse, my impression is that the palastinian have not the luxury of making their small voices known.

No one deserves to die, and we are screamin that as we go kill more people.

You asked what to do Joe? I have an alternate plan. Instead of attacking and continuing the cycle of violence, start an investigation into the causes and grievances of the terrorists. If we have really made sure that it wasn't caused by US actions, then I support a cooperation of governments in order to bring unreasonable people to international court.

Unfortunately I have seen no attemp by our government or any other to address what the caus of such strife, and I have seen no evidence of any attempt at diplomacy whatever.

Theres your answer. Now you have heard someone propose some other policy.

Poop, you are correct, 270 million is only CLOSE to half of 600 million, not EXACTLY half. I stand corrected.

Finally someone with an opposing solution instead of rants.

If we do investigate the causes and grievances of terror, which we have, you will find that:

State controlled media by arab countries with Anti-US and Israeli propaganda on TV, Radio, news papers and such. Which is mainly used to keep the people's attention away from Government corruption away from greedy leaders and either blame the US and Israel for it or focus entirely on Anti-US propaganda.

Young students studying Islam are easily duped due to either ignorance or illiteracy by Mullahs proclaiming that Islam teaches that it is right to murder hostages and kill innocents.


Fury over getting their asses kicked by Israel since 1948 due to wars of aggression launched by their leaders and were defaeted by US military aid.

THey hate all those who do not belive in Islam and believe it is a duty to kill the infidel.


For the most part, there are your causes.

If we are to eliminate them, you could say that we should apply the same for crime. What is the main goal of most criminals? Money. Therefore, if we are to eliminate robbery, then we should just hand out cash to punks when they need it for no other reason other then preventing robbery. the same for Mafioso, fraud and other crimes such as that. For murder, then the person who would be killed should then sit and watch as the Federal government walks up to the person and shoots them in the head.

They hate us because we are not islamic. Do you want to be forced to convert to Islam or die? What about white supremesists? since they want to do away with blacks do we put them in leaky boats and sink them still trapped inside?

Why is it nessecary to appease those who wish to harm us? Didn't WWII teach anyone that Appeasment makes the aggressor more aggressive?

Valid Idea though. I'm not being sarcastic. It's good to see at least someone thinking for another way instead of believing whatever media wants you to and doing nothing nor offering a solution. Thank you.

Well, there you have one view on why some people hate the US. A slightly racist one, I might add.. that assumes that Arabs are just brainwashed automons that never think for themselves and have no justified grievances with the US and Israel.

Here are some other views...

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0141/kamber.php


These people, the women in particular, loathe both the Taliban and Pakistanis like Mullah Syed Ubad Ulah Shah. "I hate the fundamentalists and what they've done to this country�how they've held us hostage with their demonstrations," says Sairah Irshad Khan, a tall, imposing woman who is senior editor at Newsline, Pakistan's leading investigative magazine.

Yet Sairah, like most others from the upper classes, has harsh words for the U.S. as well. "People here say, 'When is America going to get up and ask, Why is this [the WTC bombing] happening?' They need to look at the mindless bombing of Iraq. Saddam is still there�you're bombing women and children. To what end, I want to know?"

Of the American media, she asks, "Why are the IRA not referred to as Catholic terrorists; why is Timothy McVeigh not a Christian terrorist? Israelis are not referred to as Jewish terrorists. But if Arabs are involved, suddenly they're Islamic terrorists. There are all kinds of Muslim countries with distinct identities. We're not all the same. Islam does not condone terrorism."

http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~fjgil/usfpolicy.html

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11592

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
State controlled media by Arab countries with Anti-US and Israeli propaganda on TV, Radio, newspapers and such. Which is mainly used to keep the people's attention away from Government corruption away from greedy leaders and either blame the US and Israel for it or focus entirely on Anti-US propaganda.

---

I think this is probably true, however there is more than a little Anti-Iraq media sentiment in Britain and the US. I don�t know how often Saddam goes on TV telling his people we must bring war to the US but Bush or one of his men has been on TV every week for the last month telling us we must bring war to Iraq. Also in my experience all media is state governed to an extent probably more so for Arab nations as I think you are saying. But I know for a fact that the main British media firms have to consult with a government security advisor every year to be told what should not be shown in the media for �security� reasons etc. If media companies ignore warnings in the case of paper, radio or television stations, licences may be removed. I would imagine that the US would be similar to this in its control of the media.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Young students studying Islam are easily duped due to either ignorance or illiteracy by Mullahs proclaiming that Islam teaches that it is right to murder hostages and kill innocents.

---

I think that this applies to all religions, it�s just most British and American Christians don�t have a cause they want to die for on there doorstep like you could say the Palestinian suicide bombers do. The Islam religion teaches peace, the reason so many use it as an excuse to kill is the same as the reason many Christians do also. We can all be duped not just those of the Islam religion, the Christian religion teaches peace and to obey it you must not kill. Bush is Christian right? He has still ordered one war and is now planning his second.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Fury over getting their asses kicked by Israel since 1948 due to wars of aggression launched by their leaders and were defeated by US military aid.

---

The American/British hypocrisy for one governing the Palestinian situation will mean that there will always be a steady stream of those looking to kill Israelis, Americans and British citizens. As long as Blair continues to allow weapons sales to Israel triple in just months and Bush continues to allow one side of this tit for tat battle to go unpunished and condemn the other as terror, this war will not end. There needs to be a realisation that terror is not exclusive to non military groups of �bad men� or �evil doers� but acts of terror can and have also been perpetrated by the Israeli government and maybe many other governments.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
They hate all those who do not believe in Islam and believe it is a duty to kill the infidel.

---

Who does? Your anti west terrorists may well hate us, but this by no means what so ever and is no indication or evidence what so ever that the Islam religion its self is teaching this or its followers for the most believe it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
If we are to eliminate them, you could say that we should apply the same for crime.

---

Yes, I would unless Bush or Blair shows us any evidence what so ever that a war is needed which they wont just like they didn�t with Afghanistan.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
They hate us because we are not islamic. Do you want to be forced to convert to Islam or die?

---

Propaganda and scare tactics where you at the same University as Bush?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Why is it nessecary to appease those who wish to harm us? Didn't WWII teach anyone that Appeasment makes the aggressor more aggressive?

---

Yes I agree there but whom are you saying wishes to harm us, if you go down this line you can end up in murky waters where the line will be blurred. Iraq is not the enemy Saddam is, but I regret to inform you if you think killing him will remove anti-US climate I think you will be disappointed. Also it is quite clear the US wishes to harm Iraq more so than the opposite which you are using so does this mean that Iraq should not seek an agreement just attack there aggressor (US and UK).

I do think Saddam needs to go, but how he is removed is important. I think he should be removed because he is evil, not because of any anti-US, anti-UK, or anti-West attitude he may have.

VIPER

I should have mentioned that some, not all Muslim students are easily duped into believing what they are told. Sorry Viper. I agree with you though that Saddam has to be removed because he is evil not just because of Anti-west Anti US propaganda

Guevara and Spock,

Couldn't help but notice that neither of you had anything to say about this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nox:
An example of this self-serving and horribly inconsiderate foreign policy includes such examples as the Battle of Coral Sea, Battle of New Guinea, et al. Yes, self serving, yes yes yes.

By the way, maybe you can help me out on this, Just exactly what did the US get for the loss of life at the Battle of Coral Sea and the Battle of New Guinea? What we didn't get was/is any respect from you.

Nox

---

And in your case Dr. Spock, I find it "curious".

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr Spock:
YES, and I have some reasonable evidence.

The US budget. Out of something like a trillion and a half dollars we spend, TOTAL, a paltry 600 million on international aid.

Guess how much of that goes to the Isreali Military? 270 million.

Half.

Every time a bullet shell or bomb killed someone in palestine. it ahs made in USA on it.

---

So does the same proportion owned by the arabs.

And i'd check your facts as not every weapon owned by Isreal is american made, some are Israeli, some are american built but designed by Isreali companies, and some are British and German.

In fact, the largest tank in the world is Israeli.

Nox, seeming no one else wishes to discus interesting topics and go over the same shit over and over and over and over again, who do you think won the Battle of Coral Sea?

I'd be interested to know your opinion.

Mantis,

Well, let me see, Coral Sea the Battle of. Most of the history books I read use the word draw/statemate/other adjectives indicating neither side obtained a tactical advantage.

Since you asked my opinion, I classify this battle as a major victory for the forces opposed to the Empire of Japan. Why? The major objective of that southern thrust of the Japanese forces was the oil/rubber resources in the Indonesian archepelego (Australia was/would have been an extra prize). Since the southern Japanese drive was halted and that advance stoppage was the objective, we won.

Nox

I'd check that 600 million again. Did you know that we also import weapons to Egypt, Including M1 series tanks, and F-16 fighters. F-16's cost about 20 million. Check that again.

Spain, Malaysia, Canada Import F/A-18 fighter/bombers. look up how much one of these costs.

Do you know how many fucking NATO countries have bought F-16's?

Your 600 million to foreign aid, and 270 to Israel, does not add up. check again please.


Israel produces most of it's weapons without our help.

Boo: you aere very correct about the numbers being wrong, someone posted a more accurate bunch lately, but at the moment I do not have the time to dredge them up. I will do so in my next post.

Your arguement involving the palastinian media is indeed convincing. I think thsi does account for much of the dicontentment with the US inside the country among the masses. This acccounts no doubt for much of the rock throwing and some of the suicide bombing.

I am more interested in the worldwide organizations such as that of Mr Bin Laden, who no doubt are influenced equally by the state run Iraqi media and the New York Times. Bin Laden, a man of considerable wealth and power, would be unlikely to be so swayed by a single media source in a nation which he is not particularly tied to, (he has changed nations many times). I believe that he has more factual evidence than the spin of state run media to drive him in the running of a mutlinational organization. One would think that he would notice the difference between Iraqi Media and that of the rest of the world quite easily. Here lies my question, what drives the knowledgeable, the well read, and the philosophical to such a movement when local media are ruled out?

Nox: I am sorry that I cannot reply to your query on my opinon of the Battle of Coral Sea. Right now I am in the midst of an interesting conversation with Joe Boo, and I cannot take the extra time to handle a conversation of the quality yours would demand. Perhaps sometime soon.

Just read what he says.. *shrug*

1996 Declaration of War Against America {Expel the Infidels from the Arabian Peninsula}

Praise be to Allah, we seek His help and ask for his pardon. We take refuge in Allah from our wrongs and bad deeds. Who ever is guided by Allah will not be misled, and who ever has been misled, he will never be guided. I bear witness that there is no God except Allah, no associates with Him and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger.

"O, you who believe! Be careful of your duty to Allah with the proper care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslim." (Imraan; 3:102) "O people be careful of your duty to your Lord, who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same kind and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of your duty to Allah, by whom you demand one of another your rights, and (be careful) of the ties of kinship; surely Allah ever watches over you." (AnNisa; 4:1) "O you who believe! Be careful of your duty to Allah and speak the right word; He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and who ever obeys Allah and his Apostle, he indeed achieves a mighty success." (AlAhzab; 33:7071)

Praise be to Allah, reporting the saying of the prophet Shu'aib "I desire nothing but reform so far as I am able, and with none but Allah is the direction of my affair to the right and successful path; on Him do I rely and to Him do I turn." (Hud; 11:88) Praise be to Allah, saying, "You are the best of the nations raised up for the benefit of men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah." (AalImraan; 3:110)

Allah's blessing and salutations on His slave and messenger who said "The people are close to an all encompassing punishment from Allah if they see the oppressor and fail to restrain him."


It should not be hidden from you that the people of Islam had suffered from aggression, iniquity and injustice imposed on them by the Zionist Crusaders alliance and their collaborators, to the extent that the Muslim's blood became the cheapest and their wealth as loot in the hands of the enemies. Their blood was spilled in Palestine and Iraq. The horrifying pictures of the massacre of Qana, in Lebanon are still fresh in our memory. Massacres in Tajikistan, Burma, Kashmir, Assam, the Philippines, Fatani, Ogadin, Somalia, Erithria, Chechnya and Bosnia Herzegovina took place - massacres that send shivers in the body and shake the conscience.

All of this and the world watched and heard, and not only didn't respond to these atrocities, but a clear conspiracy developed between the USA and its' allies under the cover of the iniquitous United Nations and the dispossessed people were even prevented from obtaining arms to defend themselves.

The people of Islam awakened and realized that they are the main targets for the aggression of the Zionist Crusaders alliance. All false claims and propaganda about "Human Rights" were hammered down and exposed by the massacres that took place against the Muslims in every part of the world. The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (Allah's Blessing And Salutations On Him) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places - the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the Revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims is by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies. We bemoan this and can only say "No power and power acquiring except through Allah".

Under the present circumstances, and under the banner of the blessed awakening which is sweeping the world in general and the Islamic world in particular, I meet with you today. And after a long absence, imposed on the scholars (Ulama) and callers (Da'ees) of Islam by the iniquitous Crusaders movement under the leadership of the USA; who fears that they, the scholars and callers of Islam, will instigate the Ummah of Islam against its' enemies as their ancestor scholars (May Allah be pleased with them like Ibn Taymiyyah and Al'iz Ibn Abdes Salaam) did. Therefore the Zionist Crusader alliance resorted to killing and arresting the truthful Ulama and the working Da'ees. We are not praising or sanctifying them; Allah sanctifies whom He pleases.

They killed the Mujahid Sheikh Abdullah Azzaam, they arrested the Mujahid Sheikh Ahmad Yaseen and the Mujahid Sheikh Omar Abdur Rahman (in America).

By orders from the USA they also arrested a large number of scholars, Da'ees and young people in the land of the two Holy Places, among them the prominent Sheikh Salman AlOud'a and Sheikh Safar AlHawali and their brothers. We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and power acquiring except through Allah".

We (my group, and myself) have suffered some of this injustice ourselves; we have been prevented from addressing the Muslims. We have been pursued in Pakistan, Sudan and Afghanistan, hence this long absence on my part. But by the Grace of Allah, a safe base is now available in the high Hindukush mountains in Khurasan; where by the Grace of Allah the largest infidel military force of the world was destroyed. And the myth of the super power was withered in front of the Mujahideen cries of Allahu Akbar (God Is Greater).

Today we work from the same mountains to lift the iniquity that had been imposed on the Ummah by the Zionist Crusader alliance, particularly after they have occupied the blessed land around Jerusalem, route of the journey of the Prophet (Allah's Blessing And Salutations On Him) and the land of the two Holy Places. We ask Allah to bestow us with victory, He is our Patron and He is the Most Capable. From here, today we begin the work, talking and discussing the ways of correcting what had happened to the Islamic world in general, and the Land of the two Holy Places in particular. We wish to study the means that we could follow to return the situation to its' normal path and return to the people their own rights, particularly after the large damages and the great aggression on the life and the religion of the people.

BinLaden

So he gets attention to his plight by dozens of plots around the world? lol He must want his ass hounded by the rest of the world. Terror does not work.

What are you talking about? "Terror" does work. That's why the CIA trained all these Jihad groups to fight off the soviets. That's how Israel's Stern Gang and Irgun fought off the British. That's how the Lebanese Hizbollah fought off Israel's aggression. It's the most effective way how to fight off a superpower that is more equipped than you. Think sit-in protests would do a damn?

But those tactics don't always work, the most notible example being that of the British forces in the far east, 1950. Just when the heart and minds tactics were being used more and more. It also didn't work in the Boer war, but i'm not sure how far back you want these examples to go?

The point is, it's not the tactics employed, but the ability of the forces they are against etc etc.

Nox, like yourself i belive that a strategic win was taken by the US forces, but i'd have to say that the battle was a tactical win for the Imperial forces.

Although the american forces did gain vital information about the Japanese zero fighters.

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
Think sit-in protests would do a damn?

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That's how the civil rights movement was conducted. yes, they do work.

Terror does not work. IRA?, Red Brigades?, Japanese Red Army? How about Baader-Meinhoff. It did not work for them. nor will it for the Palestinians. Do you think after all the attacks, especially the cute little job at the university is going to work? Maybe work having tanks and APC's and curfews being imposed.

The civil rights movement was done by American citizens inside of America. That's quite a different situation than a conflict between people in different countries and cultures. If Al Qaeda had a sit-in in Chechnya, Kashmir, or at a US military base in Saudi Arabia, no one would give a flying fuck at best.. at worst they'd get killed and laughed at. Palestinians put up with Israel's shit for decades before they started suicide bombing. They tried to have marches and demonstrations, got shot by Israeli troops.. no one cared. No one gave a fuck then, so they have no trust that the Americans would give a fuck if they do now. Any bozo could see that the US is in bed with Israel no matter what they do.

btw, yes it does work. It's highly efficient and has worked in the past. Not always, but it has worked, which is why they do it. Why do you think the CIA trained the Jihadi groups in terrorism against the Soviets? Think the USSR left Afghanistan because the Taliban was doing sit-ins?

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 08-02-2002).]

The USSR left due to an unproductive guerilla warfare waged against it in Afghanistan. big difference between attacking an Army and setting a bomb off in a university full of students. Israelis put up with Palestinian terror before 1948. You think all of the sudden Israelis woke up one day saying, gee, lets kill all the Palestinians and suppress their freedom? no. Moshe Dayan became a member of a milita to protect the Jewish settlement that he lived in from Palestinian harrassment.

By the way, they got Israel because they had no homeland, history supports the fact that it was theirs long ago, and gave it back to them as a safe haven due to the holocaust after the war.

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You think all of the sudden Israelis woke up one day saying, gee, lets kill all the Palestinians and suppress their freedom?

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No, they woke up and said "gee, let's kill the Palestinians and TAKE THEIR LAND"

Having no homeland is no excuse to steal someone else's. If some guy is homeless, he has no right to barge into my house and kick me out. A holocaust is no excuse. Palestinians weren't responsible for the holocaust, and Zionists started their project long before any third reich.

quote:

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Originally posted by preying mantis:
Nox, like yourself i belive that a strategic win was taken by the US forces, but i'd have to say that the battle was a tactical win for the Imperial forces.

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I realize we are talking opinions here, but since the Japanese advance stopped, how could they claim victory. Yes, they pulled back to regroup, but they never advanced again.

As far as those who determine victory by tonnage/warship class destroyed, then the argument becomes which capital ship is more valuable than another.

Nox

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Originally posted by Nox:
I realize we are talking opinions here, but since the Japanese advance stopped, how could they claim victory. Yes, they pulled back to regroup, but they never advanced again.

As far as those who determine victory by tonnage/warship class destroyed, then the argument becomes which capital ship is more valuable than another.

Nox

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Kind of like the Battle of Jutland. It was a British victory even though they lost more ships, because the German fleet only ventured out once after, and that was to be interned at Scapa Flow

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Originally posted by TheMouse:

Having no homeland is no excuse to steal someone else's. If some guy is homeless, he has no right to barge into my house and kick me out. A holocaust is no excuse. Palestinians weren't responsible for the holocaust, and Zionists started their project long before any third reich.

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Stole who's land? Palestinians? Aren't you forgetting the fact that it was theirs before any fucking Muslim stepped foot onto it?


No, they woke up and said "gee, let's kill the Palestinians and TAKE THEIR LAND"

Wrong again. they did not just wake up and say that I can tell you that much. Ever wonder why Hitler hated the Jews? It stemmed from personal hatred. It's a well known psycological fact that hatred stems from an event in life, whether it's something petty or major. Jews hate Palestinians because of Palestinian and Arab oppression that was going on long before The discovery of this continent.

Joe, your understanding of history is so butchered and warped. The Palestinians weren't oppressing the Jews. They lived in peace before the colonists came to take the land. The reason that the Jews began to hate the Palestinians is obvious. You have to dehumanize someone before you commit inhumane acts upon them, such as massacreing them to chase them out of villages. Some Jewish people living in the area THOUSANDS of years ago gave European Jewry ZERO right to go slaughter Arabs and take the land. Only a complete racist would think that Palestinian history and national aspirations must be subordinated to Jewish history and aspirations. My ancestors lived in Russia. I have ZERO right to go there now and kick people off the land.

Nox, i completely agree, but thats what a tactical victory is.

Strategically i agree, the americans won. I belive that due to this the Japanese were missing two carrier fleets in Midway, but correct me if i'm wrong.

And your point is also correct about tactical victories. Ask Hannibal (the original one) who devastated Italy for two years, never losing a tactical battle, only to have Scipio win the singular strategic victory.

Nox

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
Joe, your understanding of history is so butchered and warped. .

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of course it is. Since it's not conforming to your beliefs, then it's warped, corrupted and biased by the Zionist pigs, the corporate world, and President Bush. Unless it agrees with you Mouse, it's wrong, because if you are, you either sidestep it, or as Nox put it, cut your own throat.

But were those two carrier fleets missed? That is the question, i belive they weren't.

As for history, It is a mix of facts and opinions, therefore no one will ever be right. Although it is worrying that some people can't even agree on the facts!!

I believe one carrier fleet was involved in the invasion of the Aleutions which was a diversion from the true objective which was Midway.

Nox, now that I have read up a bit on the Battle of Coral Sea, I need your help in seeing how it so thoroughly destroys my arguements. I don't dispute that one can get your way through force. Nor do I dispute that America has a wonderfully equipped gigantic military. Personally I think that the Battle of Coral Sea contributed to a final victory for the US, so I think the US won. I don't see how that makes any difference in whether or not we deserved Afghanistan. I hold by my karmic opinion that in the long run the use of might makes right as foreign policy will inevitably bring problems.

Did innocent civilians deserve to die? No. Did the American people do anything to deserve this attack? No.

I believe the US government directly caused the attacks of 9/11 to such an extent that I blame the government for these deaths. Take that as you may.

The American people are victims of our foreign policy.

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
Did innocent civilians deserve to die? No. Did the American people do anything to deserve this attack? No.

I believe the US government directly caused the attacks of 9/11 to such an extent that I blame the government for these deaths. Take that as you may.

The American people are victims of our foreign policy.

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You don't seem to realize that no matter what, whether we get involved or not, we will always be hated. And what the hell does our ploicy in the Middle East have to do with them attacking us? Gee golly, maybe if the governments would renounce terror we might support more then Just Jordan, Israel, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

There shouldn't really be any need for a US foreign policy in the middle east, ship it in form the russkies?

i think osama should kill more people,it left me with saticfaction and something to talk about for a few days.