The possibility that the United States is more than indirectly responsible for the attacks on the 11th is too substantial to ignore. Am I accusing the USA of a conspiracy of obscene proportions? Not exactly, simple that one must be critical of what they are being fed by the media and the powers that be. I have no hard evidence (do you think the government would leak info like that to a nut like me?) to substantiate my claim, simply circumstantial evidence. The Taliban has been driven from Afghanistan. Al Qaeda has been greatly wounded by the United States' reaction. Osama bin Laden has fled the country. What have the possible perpetrators gained from this attack? Very little. The US, however, has gained a considerable bit. Almost anything can be declared a program to promote national security, including extended phone tapping powers, greater authority to police agencies, and the authority of the CIA to operate domestically, just to mention a few. The ballistic missile defense shield has gained new clout and support, despite the low-tech nature of the Sept. 11th attacks. Racial profiling is tolerated. Countless legislators are considering registering DNA on a national ID card system. Any opposition to these actions can be denounced as unpatriotic or "a detriment to national unity." If you don't believe me, read up on people's reaction to Representative Barbara Lee's vote against House Resolution 64, which gave President Bush the authority to wage war. She was the only person in the house of the senate to oppose it. Since then she has been called a traitor by fanatics and congressmen alike. The point I'm trying to make here, is that the United States has gained more than enough new power against its people, to overshadow the death of two thousand. The government has gained more than its lost from the terror attacks. It is for that reason, that judgement should not be passed against anyone until the matter has been objectively investigated and analyzed, including the possibility of government involvement. Now, let the debate begin. Hey or nay, I want to hear some input. There's more to be learned from discussing with both those who agree and disagree with you, than from either alone.

nice ideas fish,
i have thought of this myself and it does seem possible. i read a book called Behold a Pale Horse which predicted exactly this type of thing, a seemingly terrorist attack designed to inflame the populace and to undermine the existing system. we just happily signed away rights we used to hold dear, and no one is the wiser, yet.....

you havent mentioned the 93 billion more military dollars. that is reason alone.

Another thing I failed to mention, being another benefit the government has received since Sept. 11th, is foreign relations with allies. Britain, specifically. Ever since World War 2, the UK government has respected the United States as a strong, seemingly democratic nation. However, the British government has always been fair and critical in its analysis of the United States' standpoint on many issues. With Tony Blair's parrot-like pledge of support to the USA's "War on Terrorism" (that term disgusts me too much not to place it in quotes) the British government has essentially dissolved any opposition it could have had to injustices that may be perpetrated by America. To my knowledge, however, the British citizenry has put up greater protest than anyone in the United States. Hopefully this activism may help convince the powers that be in the UK to make independent decisions on the issues of anti-terrorism and military operations. Without the support garnered from Sept. 11th, the US could never have such an infallible assurance of support from nations that support Liberty. Not freedom, but the patriotic, American conception (perversion?) of freedom.

you people watch way too much x-files.

hell it would make a good episode though,

but you're talking about a conspiracy that would include thousands and thousands of people.

and if the press jumps all over a blow job from an intern,

think of how they'd find out about this.

and bill and monica were the only ones in the room.

The press will jump on whatever they're told to jump on by their superiors. Those superiors very often have close ties to Washington. A good deal of the Establishment works this may. You scratch my back (the government deregulates certain industries, or gives a tax-cut incentive to business concerns), I scratch yours (I focus the attention of my television network's news coverage elsewhere.) When considering a large conspiracy, one can't think of the government and business (especially big) as opposing each other. In many cases, they are so closely related, as to be barely indistinguishable from one another. Covering up a conspiracy is a simple matter for a government whose populace assumes said government is just. Its even easier in a government where people value wealth so highly, that they'll dedicate their lives to cravings that only a corporate-run mass consumerist economy can provide. Any conspiracy can be covered up if you put on enough commercials for the next episode of Survivor or McDonald's new rip-you-off-and-piss-in-your-face menu. As for news coverage, be vague, and whenever you can, flash a photo of a single person that the American people are supposed to hate and blame for everything (usually bin Laden, but as of late, John Walker Lindh.) Conspiracies are easy to cover up when people have become so used to apathetic attitudes towards important topics, and complete, obsessive, engrossment in trivial ones.

TragedyFish, but this incident has severely weakened the US economy and i don't see any benefits the US has gained.

tragedyfish, man, the united states has so much more to gain that none of us can even begin to understand... some of it may seem good and some may seem bad, all of it has the potential to be devestating to the world as we know it... we just have to wait and see... its kinda inbreed into the senators and head huncho's of the usa government that they have a right to monger all this power, and they can make excellent arguments to justify even cold blooded murder, its kinda like that master pick-pocket i seen last year on some majick show, he litterally striped people in the streets while occupying them with chit chat, these people were none the wiser... its all about them moving your perspective, and they do it so very well... i really think with all this propaganda flying around something big is brewing, just my oppinion... i like to keep a note-pad next to my sofa while im watching the news, it helps cut through a fair bit of propaganda, just make two columns one labled What I know, and another What I would like to know... you will soon discover the patterns they use to draw your attention away from the information, and glorify the unimportant crud... BTW did anyone who was awake at the time and watching the broadcasts notice how often the signals failed? it wasnt an accident(how could a multi-billion dollar network fail and still be utillized??)... just made to look like it, i especially enjoyed the time where an NBC dude picked up a piece of paper outside the hole in the pentagon and the signal went dead... kinda looked like a digital failure? it wasnt... they watch everything you do... are you really happy with a government keeping secrets from the people that fund it? think of it as putting a gun to the back of your childrens head and everytime they ask what your doing say they dont have a right to know... thats the only comparison a child my age with little to no morals can make... its mystifying to me how it keeps going on... but i guess some people are just plain evil... dont get caught up in the propaganda and missinformation chaps, use your brain and you will probably wish you could be ignorant like the rest of the world... but at least you will see the future of the world... death and destruction :>

United_Strike, to my knowledge, the media has given no concrete proof that the economy has suffered any damage from the terrorist attacks. Economic changes happen slowly, an enormous amount of wealth must be moved to cause any significant fluctuation in capital. There hasn't been enough time since September 11th for there to have been an economic downfall. Any recession happening now has been caused by events longer ago, the dissolution of the budget surplus, perhaps. However, whether or not there has been economic distress as a result is a moot point. We're entertaining the possibility of a conspiracy here, and the conspirators, whoever they may be, are obviously in high seats of power, and can tough out a sluggish economy for a while. If there has been economic troubles, they are fleeting and temporary. As RAOVQ so briefly mentioned in an earlier reply, funding has been greatly increased to the military budget, defense contractors, the Office of Homeland Security, and various other programs and industries to promote national security. This will further strengthen the military-industrial complex, especially economically, but, like I said, this economic boom will take some time to take affect. I think the powers that be, though, can handle having a few less million dollars because of a recession, if it means gearing up American culture and economics for permanent war status.

ok, the us has lots to gain in the form of imperialism. we didn't have ties to afghanistan now we do, and we are going to start supporting there new government, with billions of OUR dollars. LOSTMIND it isn't a conspiracy it is indoctrination by their patriotism and nationlism that drives there reporting. are we really doing a good thing, by dropping bombs all over afghanistan? united strike, you know how the media tells us to go out and spend during a recession well according to CNN "consumer spending fell by .1% during december" that sounds like a big fucking slump to me, if .1% can affect our economy that much we don't know how to manage shit. a "military action" or "war" is the best thing to bring a slumping economy out of the hole. new government conctracts worth billions. was war even declared? so that makes this action illegal? doesn't it? if anybody deserves to die, just look at our own politicians and the bills they support and the degradation of countries to support our consumer habit. and they call NAFTA a good thing fuck these people who would rather lie and get rich from (enron) and then let our own country sink. fuck this country in its ass. hypocrites.

Good points, spanky, especially about the imperialism. That was another element I'd left out. The rampant nationalism is sickening. Call me insane, but last time I checked the people of Afghanistan are as good as Americans. It seems odd that the United States isn't referred to as an empire more often. By any objective definition of the word, the USA is an empire. The government and corporations exert strong power in other countries without even occupying territory. That is perhaps why people refrain from calling the US an empire. It has no conquered land. On a map, this is true. However, when the US can break a treaty simply because it suits their purposes with impunity, there is a problem. I'm no fan of the Stalinist regime (Marx, Lenin, Trotsky... different story) but at least during the cold war there was another superpower to challenge the United States of Imperialism. Now? They can operate with impunity, not fearing any coherent opposition. This is a very dangerous situation. However, if they had seen it appropriate, the conspirators would have staged the same attacks, but blamed it on the Soviet Union. In many ways, the presence of another superpower is irrelevant. The Elites will always find someone for us to hate. It further seperates not only the classes, but ourselves as well. The Sept. 11th attacks have given even more power to our government to control our minds and seperate the populace. If we all hate each other, how can we even recognize an unjust empire, let alone organize to change it?

the more people involved in a conspiracy the less of a conspiracy it is.

what do you guys think that all the diamond being mined is being used in satellites to spy on us in our houses as well?

my roommate stepped on his crack pipe and shattered it while bare foot,

when he told me about it, i said freud might have some interesting analysis of this after the last couple of days.

my roommate told me freud might also say sometimes a broken crack pipe, is just a broken crack pipe.

Lostmind, you're thinking of a conspiracy in the wrong context. This isn't a conspiracy the same way Watergate was. How many planes were used? 3, so we have three conspirators there. How many more people does it take to arrange an attack such as this, from within the country? Very few. Hundreds, maybe, but that's simple conjecture. The government is after us, all of us, through its seemingly democratic political system and an economy based on "freedom of capital." However, these are somewhat passive measures taken against people. September 11th was a catalyst, enacted to cause a quick change, a paradigm shift in the political understanding in the peoples' minds. September 11th, if indeed it was a conspiracy, was not a decision made in the Senate. It wasn't something Dubya sloppily signed and smiled about. It takes a smaller group of fanatics (patriots, in their own minds) to stage an attack like this. September 11th is similar to JFK's assassination in many ways. It is a way to recruit people into the army, a way to stay in a state of war. How, you may ask, is this anything like JFK's assassination? Vietnam. However, the news media has no integrity whatsoever anymore. Since the 60's and 70's the media has been bought out, piece by piece, by a smaller and smaller group of people, mostly right-wing capitalists. The opposition raised against the Vietnam war was fueled by news coverage of the combat and chaos taking place. Today, however, everything is glazed over in the news, sugar coated for your pleasure. My point, however, is that the conspiracy isn't written down, or contained within the credo of a special group. It's not the Trilateral Commission, of the Illuminati. This conspiracy is inherent within our system. It is a conspiracy in place sight against the people of the world. I'm not paranoid, I'm just looking at a different angle. I'm not seeing anything that isn't there. What I am seeing, is connections between whats in plain sight. None of the corruption in our system is truly addressed, none of the shifty dealings between government and business is official. There is no hidden evidence to back up my conspiracy theories. All the evidence I need is in plain sight. Watch the news, and tell me you believe the bullshit they spout about finding information in caves. I'm not kidding here, actually watch the news. Be objective, be critical. You may not agree with me, but you'll notice that something is seriously wrong.

The US disregarded information from the Israelis that if would happen.

come on tragedy there's more than 3 people involved,

makes me wonder how much you really know about it.

19 hijackers, one caught in france, attacking the centers of economy, military, and travel, and one failed because they allowed passengers to use cell phones to find out what's happening elsewhere.

and if america would've done it, it wouldn't have had the death toll it did, it would've been a night hit,

not at the peak of morning activities.

[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 01-30-2002).]

Lostmind, if you're going to deliberately misinterpret my posts, please don't speak with authority. It seems to me that the point I am trying to make is still eluding you. I am by no means claiming that the United States government as we know it has attacked itself. As you have so regularly pointed out, that's nonsense. However, people within that government have very much to gain from a state of warfare, especially a war with as few rules as the "War on Terror." It also should be obvious by now, that if we're entertaining the possibility of a conspiracy, that those involved would like to maximize the damage, exactly as any terrorists would. And besides, how could you get so many nice pictures in the nighttime? Its important that an attack such as this not only cause damage on paper, but also in the minds of the American people. One cannot make such a clear distinction between Islamic fundamentalists, and Christian fundamentalists. Many people in our government are as capable of violence as terrorists. Don't misinterpret me again, I don't support terrorist violence, but our government is as guilty of terrorism abroad as any organization of "lunatics." People like John Ashcroft, and Jesse Helms and Dick Cheney, these are lunatics, but they've got a whole system to back them up. It has been proven repeatedly (most recently with the dissolution of the ABM Treaty) that the United States will do whatever it deems necessary to exert its control where it pleases. Is it so impossible that some Republicrat decided that idealogical control of 280 million people is worth the loss of 2000? But in the end, does it even matter who did it? The important question is, "Who has benefitted?" Without a doubt, the answer to that question is the American status quo. Those in power are stronger, those oppressed, moreso.

Dude you're on the right track. The US did have prior knowledge and involvement. Ive been researching this shit for years. It's all about getting more control over the already BRAINWASHED americans, which is what's happening. Bush just got 48 billion for defence. Bush is a DICTATOR. There's soooo much evidence for US prior knowledge....Check out www.infowars.com Prior Knowledge section and listen to Alex Jones every fucking day. This guy is a madman and cuss's out our sick political leaders(criminals) and exposes the Elite Skum for what they really are.

He predicted this terrorist attacks....there's a BIGGER attack coming....National ID cards, POLICE STATE....wake the fuck up people. Not even just the yanks, but EVERYONE everywhere in the world, cause it's coming for you aswell.

perhaps instead of blaming the government,

YOU SHOULD BLAME THE GOVERNED!!!

now politicians have a platform to run on.

people want the freedom but not the responsibility that goes with that freedom.

don't you think a dictator would instill a system that would make he held power after 8 years? much less ensure himself of more than 4.

i know what you're saying tragedy fish, but speaking like you do only encourages people like krazy matty who think getting frisked at a concert is martial law and blames the government for something that some person sued over because they didn't ensure the safety of those participating in their festivities in the beginning,

now because they have to cover their own ass because of the general public,

the general public rises against them as infringing on their freedom.

you know somebody could put forth the logical argument that unrest among mankinds varied cultures is being fueled by offworld beings who wish to catch us with depleted militaries and morale from fighting each other and blitzkrieg us in the middle of the night because instead of looking ahead we were always looking over our shoulder.

makes just as much sense doesn't it?

or could it be that some militant nut in the backwoods of civilization is hoping to have a religious book written in a few thousand years that touts him as being a prophet and saviour for his people for bringing down the oppressive with the force of god?

i kind of think reality should be based on a little bit more than what we WANT to believe is true.

Lostmind, stop trying to make other peoples' points seem stupid with exaggeration and misinterpretations. While it may be effective, it is not beneficial or enriching to anyone. I could easily point out to you that the president's limited power has little to do with those who would conspire to usurp power, and so the claim that the president, or his cabinet, or anyone who would hold a 4 or 8 year position makes no sense. Do I have to say again that I'm asking no one to and do not condone violence or an uprising or any such proactive measures. I simply think that it is important for people to be unfailingly critical of their rulers. The possibility of the Sept. 11th attacks having been done by the United States is an intriguing and (for me and others) more believable than the current story we're being told. For you, or other skeptics, it may just be food for thought. To believe that a government as large and 'just' as ours is free from criminality and respects humanity above all other considerations is just plain naive. Power corrupts, and what greater power is there than that the American government?

if the american government is absolute power,

then absolute power leads to complacency.

since we vote for our leaders the same way we buy laundry detergent, and with about the same criteria.

i don't blame the american government for anything they do while in office.

i blame the motherfuckers who put them in office, maybe if you had delved in his agenda a little more deeply and voted on that instead of whose name pops into your head first at the voting booth, this might not have happened.

and if the people don't like it overall, you can be guaranteed his career will not last.

and if the people do like it and you, him, me or we don't, then that's something we have to deal with or make a fuss about, not necessarily to our leaders but to those who make the decisions about those who make the decisions...

THE PEOPLE,

like it or not we are system built on the premise that the satisfaction of the majority is our common goal,

and sometimes, actually more times than not, no matter the type of crowd, a lot of what you think will be in the minority.

or should we give you real reason to fear our leaders and start appeasing the few regardless of overall opinion,

until the few become the one, and krazy matty's idea of a dictatorship becomes a horrible reality.

you want to blame somebody for the way the country is,

don't look to washington,
don't look to your state capital,
don't look to your city council,

look across your alley, look across your street,

look next door,

and then look in the mirror.

>>Lostmind I agree with you somewhat. Its true that if people took more responsability when voting for a leader and questioning their ultimate motives then certain problems may not arise when and if they gain power. On the other hand when a person is conducting a political campaine they will say what the public wants them to or what they think the public wants to hear in order to be chosen to be the leader so to speak. So what they say during their campaine speeches and what will really occur can be two different things. They must be blamed for their behavior while in office just as they are lauded for it. I dont think the attacks were part of a larger plan by your government to strip you of your rights and freedoms. If thats what was wanted they could have simply taken them away using something like the war on drugs or organised crime as the excuse. Slaughtering several thousand of your own countries people to achieve this situation is more then even the mighty C.I.A. would consider doing. Right now you should be questioning whether or not continueing Bush's war is the right way to go in this increasing volotile world, or if the infusion of billions of extra tax dollars for the military is a wise use of funds. These funds can be used for social problems or medicare maybe even education. I have never seen a President that is so full of bullshit as George W Bush. I thought Reagan was bad it just turns out that he has brain damage.

very good point hellis, but if displeased with an elected officials performance, or the who he appoints to certain positions his career will be short lived.

the education is there for these people.

what do you think we horde all the school books to ourselves to literally keep these people ignorant?

these people are not self-ruled, these people have their very own governments inlflicting ignorance on it's people.

how else do you think they keep power?

i guess i could say the same about america, i could say political correctness is inflicting ignorance on americans.

like not calling people black anymore,

we'll call them african-americans,

and ignorant america goes yeah, that sounds good,

somebody with a fucking thought though will say,

yeah but you're still calling them something different aren't you? wouldn't real political correctness call everybody americans just like i'm called.

72 virgins as a reward for sacrificing your life for allah is about the same ignorant bullshit.

which is why i'm all for kicking their fucking asses.

what i'd really like to see though is an alternative fuel source developed so we can turn that part of the world into what most of africa is.

we'd have to put up with overweight old tv stars telling us about the starvation problem for the kids,

then they'd love us

and we wouldn't give one shit about yemen,

saddam hussein would no longer be a household word,

sad am whose sane?

nobody would care about israel,

and THE WHOLE WORLD would tell palestine to shut the fuck up for about 10 years,

YOU'VE HAD YOUR FUCKING COUNTRY SINCE WE GAVE YOU A GODDAMN SEAT ON THE UNITED NATIONS!

motherfucker we told you in 1948 you can't have it all.

now shut the fuck up and here's your fucking wheat stamped...

U.S.A with uncle sam giving you guys the finger.

What gave you the idea that Americans are any better than any other people of the world? America's religion is as bad as any middle eastern countries. Have you ever read the Old Testament? We are as guilty of religious fundamentalism as any arab terrorist. Also, doesn't the fact that the middle east would become like Africa were we to develop an aletrnative fuel source disconcerting to you? Doesn't it bother you that the government of the US cares nothing for anyone, simply for its own oil and the fucking GNP? And tell me, how exactly is war supposed to help any of these problems? They deserve death for their crimes, right? That's what people like you think, like there isn't a history of oppression and deceit to make them angry. Poor, innocent, freedom-lovin', liberty-spreadin' America got its hair mussed, so we 'shouldn't let them ragheads get away with it.' Well, I got news for you, that's called revenge whenever anyone else does it, and to justify it on a national scale is inhuman. This right wing bullshit is too much for me. This kind of nationalism is tiring and absurd. I probably won't be posting for a while, beacuse I'm fucking sick of hearing people harping on and on about how wonderful America is and how we can do no wrong. America sucks ass. So does Britain. So does Afghanistan. All of this bullshit; terrorism, oiligarchy, conspiracies; are a result of the fact that power corrupts. Fuck countries, fuck government, and fuck lostmind, trying to blame me for the actions of the elites.

>>Lostmind I do not think you guys are hoarding text books from any of your countries citizens. Both our countries have excellent systems of education. A lot of the posts on this BBS show that (not all, but I wont get into that) including yours as does the responses to these posts. I am simply saying that improvements in any countries education system would be good for any country and nessary. I saw an intrview years ago with Albert Speer (I know its spelt wrong, see improvements). For those who dont know who he is, he was Adolf Hitlers prized achitect (another spelling error, damn the spell check) and acoording to him his best friend. The interview was conducted after he had been released from a Russian prison after serving time for crimes against humanity. He stated that the only way this situation could have been prevented (Nazi) is through education. So any improvement on any countries education system is a positive step, even if the present system is excellent. Why not put the funds towards medicare I am sure anybody would enjoy a good cheap medical system. That way everybody is "healed" equally rather then having to worry if their insurance will cover a certain treatment that otherwise could not be afforded by that individual. Bush's War on "terror" is only going to create terror. This means that the men and women who make up the mititary of several allied countries will be placed in the line of danger and could lose their lives. True that some of these counties (if not all) simply want to suck up to the United States, including mine. Its funny when the world went to war in Iraq all the allies leaders used the very same excuse Bush senior used, even the same words. I think we are going overboard with this conflict it sounds like Bush wants to get rid of some of his "itches" and found a good excuse for doing it by force. He destroyed one government seeking one man who probably wasnt even there in the first place. Bin Ladin is probably amused by this as he probably doesnt care about anyone even the guys who appeared to be backing him (Taliban). We cant forget that there are two very powerful countries who wont be to pleased with the American Military or her allies snooping around.

i wasn't knocking canada's education system,

i was merely saying the knowledge is there, the knowledge is on the internet,

i say that they either refuse to learn it, or refuse to teach it.

everybody looks at teacher's in this country,

i look at the students, if you don't want to learn you're not going to,

and why would i waste my time with some senior who can't read,

i should be spending my time with people who are going to apply what they learn, not just here learning shit because i made them.

terror does spawn terror until the initial terror is gone, than terror is no longer needed.

what's the name of that disease they eradicated by injecting infants with the very same disease, small pox or polio is all i can think of at the moment.

i don't like to fight, but i will if need be.

nobody is above an ass-kicking,

and some people need it,

admit you know somebody who getting their ass kicked would do nothing but good for.

this is just ass kicking on a larger scale

it's like george carlin said, pacifism is a great idea...

in theory.

in reality it can get you killed.

>>Lostmind I wasnt saying that you were knocking any education system and I agree with you that its the students responsablity (dictionary Hellis get a fucking dictionary) to learn for him/herself. A teacher is only there to aid the student in learning by explaining the concepts of society and its up to the student to digest the information and seek advice on any subject that they may need help in understanding correctly. Then take this Knowledge when and if they attend college or University and learn how to use it. If a student fails thats their problem for not learnig, unfortunately its usually the teacher or the system that is blamed for their shortcomings. Your also right when you say that there are people who deserve an ass kicking from time too time, in fact everybody needs a good one once in a while. I was simply reacting to one of your posts that I thought, that you thought that I acused you (not personally but in the national sense) for hoarding school books if I was wrong I apologise. You are also right about the internet it is one of the best movers of information since T.V.

[This message has been edited by hellis (edited 02-08-2002).]

"What gave you the idea that Americans are any better than any other people of the world?"

i guess because of the fact we know the science behind the weapons we use.

"America's religion is as bad as any middle eastern countries. Have you ever read the Old Testament? We are as guilty of religious fundamentalism as any arab terrorist."

THAT'S THE BIGGEST CROCK OF SHIT I'VE EVER HEARD.

get the fuck out of the middle ages here and forget about the disbanded kkk.

the biggest thing going on in churches in america is the preacher recruiting snipers to sit in trees and take out jehovah's witnesses before they get to the door.

contrary to illusioned impression of religion, most people can seperate the what they believe to what they live.

"Also, doesn't the fact that the middle east would become like Africa were we to develop an aletrnative fuel source disconcerting to you?"

HELL NO, WHO THE FUCKS GOING TO BLOW UP PLANES,

there all in poverty anyways except for the leaders, who only hold onto their power by blaming the peoples misery on america so they don't rise up against them.

"Doesn't it bother you that the government of the US cares nothing for anyone"

you know what i don't a give a shit about anyone either,

if you think that killing people who don't believe what you believe and there will be 72 virgins waiting for you,

you're just slowing mankind down, to quote carlin,

the kid who eats the most marbles doesn't grow up to have kids of his own.

"And tell me, how exactly is war supposed to help any of these problems?"

you know you're right, we should've let hitler eradicate the jews, and take over europe, he'd have never come to america would he,

let the japs have hawaii, they'd have never come to america would they.

there's a certain lifestyle and society that i'm appealed to, and right now america is the closest thing to it.

if you can't accept the way in which i choose to live and have to threaten it...

then motherfucker you have to die, because it will come down to what i want compared to what you want.

it's like i said i don't like to fight but nobody's above an ass kicking.

"They deserve death for their crimes, right?"

i am against capital punishment.

"Well, I got news for you, that's called revenge whenever anyone else does it, and to justify it on a national scale is inhuman."

well i got some fucking news for you, them "ragheads" have a saying in the koran...

revenge is a dish that is best served cold.

so quit blaming america for this.

"I probably won't be posting for a while, beacuse I'm fucking sick of hearing people harping on and on about how wonderful America is and how we can do no wrong."

good riddance i hope your pacifistic child get his head blown out on the playground,

because revenge is wrong,

and if you think i think america can do no wrong you are one sorry motherfucker.

forgive me if i love this country, but have a problem with it's people.

maybe if you're arguments were convincing and made sense you wouldn't have to listen to this rabble.

so instead of understanding another point of view...

you just cover your ears like a two year old and yell "i can't hear you, i can't hear you, i can't hear you."

go watch oprah you fairy.

America sucks ass.

get a part-time job and leave when you have the money.

"and fuck lostmind, trying to blame me for the actions of the elites."

fuck me?

who did you vote for?

you know maybe if you weren't such a pathetic pacifist you might have the fucking balls to stand up and fight for what you believe to be right.

and you're damn right i blame you for the actions of this countries leaders.

there are approximately 300 million people i blame for the actions of america's leaders.

MY FUCKING SELF INCLUDED.

TragedyFish and the rest of you who posted on this topic:
I would like to thank you for speaking your mind. It is nice to see some people aren't buying all the bullshit the Feds and the media are feeding us these days. I was starting to think I was all alone on this.

I remember the morning of September 11. As soon as I heard the news on the radio, I thought it was a setup. I still had OK City on my mind, and how the FEDS staged the whole thing to cover up something crazy. (Written affidavits of witnesses said that BTF agents hauled machine guns, grenades, and even anti-tank missiles out of that building.)

This whole terrorism thing is bullshit, and nobody sees that. They just fall behind their President and Flag like retarded sheep.

What is terrorism? Guerilla Warfare? Hell, we practicly invented it. It's war, but not a war on freedom. There are a dozen other countries with more freedom than us; they just weren't fucking with the middle east. We put ourselves in the middle of the shit, OR we set the whole thing up to start another war. We are going to Korea and Colubia next. We are supposed to believe that Colubian paramilitary, Afghanistan Taliban and North Korea are somehow united.
(It makes you think of something else. How did the Nazis and Japanese end up on the same side in WWII? It's hard to imagine the negotiations between Hitler and the Emperor of Japan.)

Now, they are charging this American Taliban kid with terrorism. He was fighting on the front lines! How is that terrorism?

Next week writing this note might be called terrorism. Maybe when they throw my ass in the concentration camp I'll see some of you guys there. Didn't anybody read 1984 in school, or at least see the movie?

I don't know. I am just happy to know someone out there questions their reality besides me. thanks.

you watch the x-files religiously don't you.

He probably has a crush on Scully, or Mulder who knows?

Lostmind you're dumber then you look if you still think Laden masterminded the 9-11 attacks from a Cave in Afghanistan. You're brainwashed, programmed and conditioned. A walking talking zombie just like your average joe six pack MORON yank. You're happy as long as you have a 6-pack, BigMac in hand, and Survivor on your TV, and one of Bush's "We'll get those Evil Dooers!" monthly speeches.

You're going to be one of the sheeple first in line for your microchip implants in your thick skull. You have NO concept of reality, no concept of the BIGGEST MEDIA MANIPULATION in history, no knowledge of face Scanning camera's on every street corner, military checkpoints across the country, satelittes that will be able to disable any vehicle on the spot, UN troops on the border, mircochips in ID cards or implants that WILL track you like sheep. Police State you silly stupid fuck, coming to a neighborhood near you.

The next wave will rid the world of the ignorant fools that are waiting for the next STAGED TERRORISM with their thumbs up their ass's. .

krazy matey,
if you're so fucking bent on being anti-establishment, get yourself a fucking gun and join SLA, I like this country as it is, but help whatever deity anyone who crosses my fucking path. I like my choices in today�s mass slaying devices, be they real or pseudo. america is a land of opportunities. when an opportunity presents your fucking pacifistic anti-everything ass an option to kill yourself, you will be able to go buy yourself the biggest semi-automatic you can afford, and blow your fucking brains out. ISN'T THIS SHIT IRONIC?


[This message has been edited by sckbch (edited 02-13-2002).]

I dont believe that the attacks were the work of one man also. There had to be some involvement by another source probably a middle east one like your old enemies (Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc. I dont think that the Taliban was even responsible I doubt they had the power, money or the balls to do such a thing. I certainly do not think the U.S. would have done anything like that to its own people. There are other domestic problems taht could have been used to achieve the same result. This guy from Calgary has some type of object shoved up rude places (his ass) just ignore him, he has an anti-American attitude which is ironic considering most of Canada considers Alberta especially Calgary more American then some of your states.

right on sckbch,

don't worry i'll go get your football for you.

krazy matty,

you need to stop watching the matrix.

hellis, i'm not saying one man masterminded it.

if you haven't been paying attention, bin laden's like a ruler with no country.

he's got a staff, strategists, armed guards.

he's an island unto himself.

one nut under allah.

saying bin laden had nothing or little to do with it, why don't you go as easy on bush as you do bin laden?

haven't you already condemned the man for starting world war III in another post here about russia and china.

WWIII=0 dead yet, that goddamn fucking bush is an asshole, going to get us all killed. yet we are a democracy.

9-11=3,000+ dead, border security shown for the sponge it is, all avenues lead to one man. you must be really naive to think he masterminded this by himself.

ironic, not.

>>Lostmind I was never sympathetic towards O. Bin Ladin he should be boiled alive in the molten fat of his victims and keep a doctor near by so hes kept alive as long as possible during the procedure. I also never said anything about world war III, I said that Russia and China wouldnt like that the American military is so close to their boarders. It was on the news, Putin warned Bush to leave Iraq alone, which he didnt. The spokesman said that they were afraid that the Americans would influence some of their satalite states away from Russian interests, kind of like the reaction Bush Senior had when Iraq invaded Kuaite. Do you think he would have cared less about a tiny country like that if it didnt have the oil. As I am sure your aware that China hates the U.S. and will join anybody who is going against the U.S. There is no way that OBL masterminded this himself which I had already stated before. I said that he would need a backer like a government, I would place my bet on Iraq, I also said that I didnt think that the Taliban was involved in the plot other then harboring Bin Ladin if thats what they were doing. As we noe see the Taliban were bullies and like all bullies, they backed down when they saw that they cant push you around as much as they want to. Some of the others seem to think that The American government was somehow involved in the attack in order to manipulate your people using fear to strip you of you rights and freedoms. I never said that, in fact I said that your government was not involved or considered to involve itself in such a plot, at least one would hope not. I was defending your government, something I thought I would never do. I have also said that I agreed that Bush's reaction was justifiable, any leader that wouldent doesnt deserve the title, I did not agree that it should taken farther then the origional plan, that is obtaining Bin Ladin, trying him, then executing him which he deserves. Well the Taliban is destroyed and now a new government is taking its place, the world watched as Bush Senior humilliated the fourth largest army in the world in forty-five days (the one Sadam said would be the "mother of all battles"). Youve made your point, we all know how strong you are something you constantly reminded the world of since the end of the cold war. Now there is a new war, The war on "terror". This will end up as the war on drugs did, massive amounts of resourses were spent in a valient attempt to halt the drug virus infecting most if not all the worlds countries, but like the war on drugs the war on terror will NEVER be won no matter how hard you may try. Terrorism like drugs have been and will be part of our lives forever, continuing it will only make it worse, the more you fight it the more terrorists will use it. You should be asking how your government could allow this to happen in the first place, I mean with all your technology, all the money spent on your military and intellegence or counter intelligence how come you never saw this coming, the reason is; you guys never thought that anybody would dare attack the great and powerful United States of America, well it happened and now you guys are in a panic, preparing your and your Allies military(s) to embark on an unwinnable war. One that will never end no matter who fights it. As for your President, well I hate him, just as I hate Bin Ladin, Arafat, Israel, Iraq, Iran and most esspecially the useless fuck who galls himself to call himself Prime Minister. As for your country, I like it unlike most of the people I know in my country or most other countries in the world, understand?

yeah, i get you now.

i, however, like bush.

basically for the simple reason that like his father and reagan before they didn't take shit.

every war is winnable.

the war on drugs is winnable if you really want to fight it,

however most politicians do not want the war on drugs to end, it is by far the easiest platform to run on, next to health and education.

and you are exactly right, our arrogance was our ignorance.

i love this country, it's the people in it i tend to have a problem.

the people in it, and who they choose to run it.

Number one I'd love to know how the War on Drugs in winnable. If the demand is there the supply is not going to stop. I guess 30 years of futility has taught you nothing.
Secondly, your always blaming the people because they don't pay attention to who they vote for. While I essentially agree that we vote based more on superficialities than on issues. However, it really doesn't matter who the public votes for. The people in power are more concerned with staying in power than with helping the average person.

Just for all you ignorant morons who still don't believe the US government had prior knowledge and INVOLVEMENT in the 9-11 attacks.....you wont be able to disprove any of this guys research he's offered 1000 bux to anyone that can...no one has come forward yet(big fucking surprize muahahah)....cause it's all REAL and LEGIT biaaaaatch's!
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/02_11_02_lucy.html

Oh Lucy! � You Gotta Lotta �Splainin To Do�

A TIMELINE SURROUNDING SEPTEMBER 11TH - IF CIA AND THE GOVERNMENT WEREN�T INVOLVED IN THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

Bin Laden Met with the CIA in July and Walked Away

by

Michael C. Ruppert

[� COPYRIGHT 2001, All Rights Reserved, Michael C. Ruppert and From The Wilderness Publications, www.copvcia.com. May be copied and distributed for non-profit purposes only.]

[Expanded and Revised February 11, 2002]

FTW, November 2, 2001 � 1200 PST -- On October 31, the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official - presumably the Chief of Station. The meeting, held in bin Laden�s private suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and this year�s attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000 intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in January. Yet on July 14th he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet and there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.

In 1985 Oliver North � the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn�t appear to have a hand in the current war - sent the Navy and commandos after terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography �Under Fire,� while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, �I used to wonder: how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?� One could look at the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before September 11 and ask the same question.

It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events both before and after the September 11th suicide attacks, which have been blamed on bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution. It also makes clear that the events which have taken place since September 11th are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.

One wonders how these events could have been ignored by the major media or treated as isolated incidents. Failing that, how could skilled news agencies avoid being outraged, or at least even just a little suspicious?

1. 1991-1997 � Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal, BP Amoco and Shell directly invest almost $3 billion in cash bribing heads of state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia to use Russian pipelines the major oil companies have no way to recoup their investments. [Sources Testimony before the House International Relations Committee 2/12/98]

2. December 4, 1997 � Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

3. February 12, 1998 � Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca � later to become a Special Ambassador to Afghanistan � testifies before the House that until a single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan the trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source: Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

4. 1998 - The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi Arabia was harboring an al-Q�aeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August 2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times 1/12/01; See No Evil by a book by Robert Baer (release date Feb. 2002).

5. 1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 � �The Best Enemies Money Can Buy,�
- http://www.copvcia.com/members
/carlyle.html. ]

6. January, 2001 � The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to �back off� investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden�s relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, VA � right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996, frustrating efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast � Nov 7, 2001].

7. Feb 13, 2001 � UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale � while covering a trial of bin Laden�s Al Q�aeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden�s encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

8. May 2001 � Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001].

9. May, 2001 � Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader General Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections and he is the recipient of the highest civil decoration awarded by Pakistan. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as �an unusually long meeting,� also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. General Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001.]

10. June 2001 � German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are �planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.� [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001.]

11. July, 2001 � Three American officials: Tom Simmons (former U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia), meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, �Bin Laden - La Verite� Interdite,� discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, September 22, 2001; the BBC, September 18, 2001.The Inter Press Service, Nov 16, 2001]

12. Summer 2001 - According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain�s The Guardian, correspondent David Leigh reported that, �U.S. department of defense official, Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian�s Felicity Lawrence established that US Rangers were also training special troops in Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special troops were training in Alaska and Montana.�

13. Summer 2001 (est.) � Pakistani ISI Chief General Ahmad (see above) orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, who was according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI. [Source: The Times of India, October 11, 2001.]

14. Summer 2001 � An Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the World Trade Center in the week of September 9th. German police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not reveal any further information. [Source: German news agency �online.de�, September 14, 2001, translation retrieved from online.ie in Ireland.]

15. June 26, 2001 � The magazine indiareacts.com states that �India and Iran will �facilitate� US and Russian plans for �limited military action� against the Taliban.� The story indicates that the fighting will be done by US and Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source: indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001.]

16. August 2001 � The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin Laden�s network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, September 13.]

17. August 11 or 12 � US Navy Lt. Delmart �Mike� Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope which he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court Records]

18. Summer 2001 � Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for suicide missions. This is reported in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA officer.

19. July 4-14, 2001 � Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15th. [Source: Le Figaro, October 31st, 2001.]

20. August 2001 � Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government �in the strongest possible terms� of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MS-NBC interview with Putin, September 15.]

21. August/September, 2001 � The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.

22. Sept. 3-10, 2001 � MS-NBC reports on September 16 that a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden in the week prior to 9/11.

23. September 1-10, 2001 � In an exercise, Operation �Swift Sword� planned for four years, 23, 000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9/11 attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment the massive operation was implemented as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation �Bright Star.� All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the World Trade Center. [Sources: The Guardian, CNN, FOX, The Observer, International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

24. September 7, 2001 � Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of Florida web site listing of Governor�s Executive Orders.]

25. September 6-7, 2001 � 4,744 put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the UAL puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. �Buzzy� Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, http://www.ict.org.il/, September 21; The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal.]

26. September 10, 2001 - 4,516 put options are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: ICT � above]

27. September 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by UAL and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600% above normal. This at a time when Reuters (September 10) issues a business report stating, �Airline stocks may be poised to take off.�

28. September 6-10, 2001 � Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25% of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the September 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Vol. IV, No.7, October 18, 2001, http://www.copvcia.com/members/
oct152001.html. ]

29. It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was reported, as recently as June, 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden�s possession and, as a result of recent stories by FOX, both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least this summer. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; FOX News, October 16, 2001; FTW, October 26, 2001, - http://www.copvcia.com/members/
magic_carpet.html; FTW, Vol. IV, No.6, Sept. 18, 2001 - http://www.copvcia.com/members/
sept1801.html; FTW, Vol. 3, No 7, 9/30/00 - www.copvcia.com/stories/
may_2001/052401_promis.html.

30. September 11, 2001 � Gen Mahmud of the ISI (see above), friend of Mohammed Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. [Source: MS-NBC, Oct. 7.]

31. September 11, 2001 � Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the world�s largest instant messaging companies, with offices in New York, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the first plane hits the WTC. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any investigation of this. The Odigo Research and Development offices in Israel are located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv which is the same location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism which breaks early details of insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN�s Daniel Sieberg, 9/28/01; Newsbytes, Brian McWilliams, 9/27/01; Ha�aretz, 9/26/01.].

32. September 11, 2001 - For 35 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred � an event that has never happened in history. [Sources: CNN, ABC, MS-NBC, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times.]

33. September 13, 2001 � China is admitted to the World Trade Organization quickly, after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York Times, Sept. 30, 2001.]

34. September 14, 2001 � Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as a seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court records]

35. September 15, 2001 � The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III has resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex (A.B) Brown unit of Deutschebank.

36. September 29, 2001 � The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5 million in put options on American Airlines and United Airlines are unclaimed. This is likely the result of the suspension in trading on the NYSE after the attacks which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when the owners showed up to redeem their put options.

37. October 10, 2001 � The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal pipeline from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to the Pakistani coast, for the purpose of selling oil and gas to China, is now back on the table �in view of recent geopolitical developments.�

38. Mid October, 2001 � The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having suffered a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although still weak, and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted by a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for �affected� industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

39. November 21, 2001 � The British paper The Independent runs a story headlined, �Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban.� The story reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.

40. November 25, 2001 � The Observer runs a story headlined �Victorious Warlords Set To Open the Opium Floodgates.� It states that farmers are being encouraged by warlords allied with the victorious Americans are �being encouraged to plant �as much opium as possible.�

41. December 4, 2001 � Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is recruited by the US government to help establish control in Afghanistan by unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of the CIA�s leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison in order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, 12/4/01].

42. December 25, 2001 � Newly appointed afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai is revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde.]

43. January 3, 2002 � President Bush appoints Zalamy Khalilzad as a special envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote op-eds in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source: Pravda, 1/9/02]

44. January 4, 2002 � Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a surge of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away from drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 2002.

45. January 10, 2002 � In a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys for �Mike� Vreeland call the Pentagon�s switchboard operator who confirms that Vreeland is indeed a Naval Lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon. [Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; court records Toronto Superior Court.]

46. February 9, 2002 � Pakistani leader General Musharraf and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to �cooperate in all spheres of activity� including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10 million to Afghanistan to help pay Afghani government workers. [Source: The Irish Times, 2/9/02]

Now, let�s go back to the October 31 story by Le Figaro � the one that has Osama bin Laden meeting with a CIA officer in Dubai this June.

The story says that, �Throughout his stay in the hospital, Osama Bin Laden received visits from many family members [There goes the story that he�s a black sheep!] and Saudi Arabian Emirate personalities of status. During this time the local representative of the CIA was seen by many people taking the elevator and going to bin Laden�s room.

�Several days later the CIA officer bragged to his friends about having visited the Saudi millionaire. From authoritative sources, this CIA agent visited CIA headquarters on July 15th, the day after bin Laden�s departure for Quetta�

�According to various Arab diplomatic sources and French intelligence itself, precise information was communicated to the CIA concerning terrorist attacks aimed at American interests in the world, including its own territory.��

�Extremely bothered, they [American intelligence officers in a meeting with French intelligence officers] requested from their French peers exact details about the Algerian activists [connected to bin Laden through Dubai banking institutions], without explaining the exact nature of their inquiry. When asked the question, �What do you fear in the coming days?� the Americans responded with incomprehensible silence.��

�On further investigation, the FBI discovered certain plans that had been put together between the CIA and its �Islamic friends� over the years. The meeting in Dubai is, so it would seem, consistent with �a certain American policy.��

Even though Le Figaro reported that it had confirmed with hospital staff that bin Laden had been there as reported, stories printed on November 1 contained quotes from hospital staff that these reports were untrue. On November 1, as reported by the Ananova press agency, the CIA flatly denied that any meeting between any CIA personnel and Osama bin Laden at any time.

In the most ironic twist of all, FTW has learned that Le Figaro is owned by the Carlyle Group, the American defense contractor which employs George Bush Sr., and which had as investors � until they sold their stake on October 26 - the bin Laden family.

Who do you believe?

whether we had prior knowledge was never in dispute,

what was in dispute is if we were involved.

maybe because the rams had prior knowlegde to the patriots appearing in the superbowl, the rams are directly responsible for them winning.

could it be that our government took the threats as seriously as you take our government?