You fucking yankees.You�re going to destroy the world.You think that the world is yours.How many countries were atacked by the terrorism?A lot of countries.But USA is special.They want war.USA vs terrorism.USA vs the world.USA vs Mars.USA vs the universe.I think that your government need to think about going into a war.Remember Nostradamus.

------------------
"Tokky T"

I agree with ya except the Nostradamus bit, that was a hoax.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tokky_T:
How many countries were atacked by the terrorism?A lot of countries.But USA is special.

---

When I was in school, there was a bully, named Billy, who always picked on the smaller kids. Everyday, he would pick on someone, and everyday he got away with it. That is until one day he decided to pick on Ted. Ted stomped his ass and sent him home with a broken nose.

Well, now they've picked on us, and we don't HAVE to take it, because WE have the means, the courage, and the resolve to stomp that ass. Just like Ted did.

You people are always griping about America sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. You all gripe that America doesn't care, and that she should stay in North America.

So be it, but if we stay over here, I think our MONEY should stay over here with us. And while we're at it, you all can keep YOUR people over there, and your exports, too.

We don't need you telling us anything about America. If you don't like what's about to happen, then sit in the truck and listen to the radio. The MEN will handle it.



------------------
Big Fat Daddy

tokky_t,

you're the jackass elevating us.

i guess the european union, iran, pakistan, india, china, russia, canada, mexico, south america, and australia don't count in the world.

I think he's just jealous because their army consists of a bunch of semi-retired pensioners and also because he feels left out. No one asked uraguay for any help because they would be more of a hinderance.

Also, there is nothing to bomb there, but moutain goats so they can't really take any sort of stand or help out.

I think tokky_t is feeling left out.

[This message has been edited by preying mantis (edited 09-22-2001).]

now for a not realistic example

Inspired by the bully story, I now give my own version(note I DIDN'T say it isn't stupid):

Bob is a bully. He beats the shit out of everyone he sees and carries around a big board with nails in it. One day he tries to pick on some psychopatic murder and the guy nearly kills him. What does he do? Does he just give up and not hurt anyone? No, he finds out where the psycho dude lives and bombs his house, killing him and his family. Then he goes, "hey, this is cool" and gets some more bombs and blows up the whole town he lives in. Then he gathers a group of followers, who believe in his "big boom 'n' lotsa blood be fun" theory, and they go around killing people who are driving cars by shooting out their tires while they're driving down the highway. Then he gets a bigger group of followers, overturns the government, kills everyone who doesn't like him, then goes and builds a huge bomb that destroys the whole world and crumbles it into 50,000,000,000 pieces.

about Ted, man you re absolutely right.
i agree with you that the US must beat the
living shit outta all of them arab asswipes.
arab sez theyre gonna fight holy(!!!)war.
shiiiiyyyyyyt! they re outta their minds.
if i could join the US Army, i'd really
kick the tar out of'em bastards.
come on man, it is war after all.
i'm praying for all it is to end.

i mean Big Fat Daddy is right,
just wiped his quote from the
reply, dammit.

You preying mantis, you�re a fucking shit.You know my idiom?You know where is Uruguay?After the 11 of september,you knew where was Afganistan?From where are you?The americans thinks that the world is the USA.The other countries are a piece of shit for them.But if all the other countries leave alone USA he will die.Perhaps Osama Bin Laden is inocent.Afganistan is inocent. But the americans need a guilty person, a guilty country.Some day the anger of the others countries will kick the ass of USA.That day I�ll laugh with all my energy.

------------------
"Tokky T"

Punches Tokky T in the nose.

Nope My name isnt Ted but i know where Ted is coming from

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tokky_T:
You fucking yankees.

---

LOL Yankee? I think the Civil War ended about 135 years ago.

Unless you mean baseball then Im an Oakland A's fan myself.

------------------
Now go make me Turkey Pot Pie you Bitch!
-Breakfast Club

i love all the third world foreigners knocking our country.

calling america an empire.

your governments are pieces of shit, which is why you're still third world.

probably blame the ignorance of your leaders on the usa as well.

where the fuck is uraguay anyway?

probably some shit hole, a zit on the ass of the world.

get you and your teenangster brethren together tokky_t, so we can come squeeze you when you actually push past the skin so your presence is visible.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tokky_T:
You preying mantis, you�re a fucking shit.You know my idiom?You know where is Uruguay?After the 11 of september,you knew where was Afganistan?From where are you?The americans thinks that the world is the USA.The other countries are a piece of shit for them.But if all the other countries leave alone USA he will die.Perhaps Osama Bin Laden is inocent.Afganistan is inocent. But the americans need a guilty person, a guilty country.Some day the anger of the others countries will kick the ass of USA.That day I�ll laugh with all my energy.

---

Thank you, yes i maybe a shit but i am not american. You say that the americans just assumed bin Laden is responsible, well didn't you just assume i was american, just because of my views, and whats am idiom?

I have known about afganistan for a long time. I read a book on the soviet war there a few years back.

And yes afganstan is innocent, how can they be guilty of setting up such an attack. what they are guilty of doing is harbouring bin Laden, which they've been doing for some while. Lets not forget that he has had his fingers in the terrorism pie for some years now, and this is the excuse that america has been waiting for.

he took responsibility for the cole we have enough in this to demand his extradition and execution. This most recent event is just what has moblized the nation, lets remember this is supposed to be an action against all terrorists.

Belgium will destroy the world with their. . . and ummmmm. . . waffles?

That's Spanish Bellicose, I'm half Spaniard, half German, got any problem? (and once more, I'm not Belgian I just happen to live here)

------------------
Nicht die Notdurft, nicht die Begierde - nein, die Liebe zur Macht ist der D�mon der Menschen.

Nehmen sie uns den Leib, Gut, Ehr', Kind und Weib: lass fahren dahin - das Reich muss uns doch bleiben! Ja! Ja! Das "Reich"!

it was a joke, and i know your spanish and german, how many times have you told us that? please take it a little more literally (sarcasm). and please feel free to correct any spelling mistakes i may have hastily made

[This message has been edited by Bellicose (edited 09-23-2001).]

Sorry man, I'm in no mood for jokes when everyone bitches on me for being COntinental European.

------------------
Nicht die Notdurft, nicht die Begierde - nein, die Liebe zur Macht ist der D�mon der Menschen.

Nehmen sie uns den Leib, Gut, Ehr', Kind und Weib: lass fahren dahin - das Reich muss uns doch bleiben! Ja! Ja! Das "Reich"!

so don�t write things in other languages than English. Although I can read your comments in Spanish and in German, I think that you�re impolite. It�s a provocation and you know it. You�re asking for it.

what did you write anyways?

in english please

I told the guy to calm down in his native language. What's wrong with that? It wasn't directed at you, but at him.

------------------
Nicht die Notdurft, nicht die Begierde - nein, die Liebe zur Macht ist der D�mon der Menschen.

Nehmen sie uns den Leib, Gut, Ehr', Kind und Weib: lass fahren dahin - das Reich muss uns doch bleiben! Ja! Ja! Das "Reich"!

i wasnt saying theres a problem, i just wanted to know what you said

I'm telling him to calm down.

------------------


[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 11-06-2001).]

You fucking yankees.You�re going to destroy the world.You think that the world is yours.How many countries were atacked by the terrorism?A lot of countries.But USA is special.They want war.USA vs terrorism.USA vs the world.USA vs Mars.USA vs the universe.I think that your government need to think about going into a war.Remember Nostradamus.

finally someone said it...

When I was in school, there was a bully, named Billy, who always picked on the smaller kids. Everyday, he would pick on someone, and everyday he got away with it. That is until one day he decided to pick on Ted. Ted stomped his ass and sent him home with a broken nose.

Well, now they've picked on us, and we don't HAVE to take it, because WE have the means, the courage, and the resolve to stomp that ass. Just like Ted did.

You people are always griping about America sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. You all gripe that America doesn't care, and that she should stay in North America.

So be it, but if we stay over here, I think our MONEY should stay over here with us. And while we're at it, you all can keep YOUR people over there, and your exports, too.

We don't need you telling us anything about America. If you don't like what's about to happen, then sit in the truck and listen to the radio. The MEN will handle it.


good point

I really agree with both, because on a personal stance i am ted, but over all I think america has just now relized but the thing is we will do something about it since it was us this time and maybe in the future we might look out for the other little guys no offence to the little guys.

America does act like a bully a lot of the time, but I do as hell prefer a bully like the USA to one like Iraq or Afghanistan. Someone just ends up "being in charge" and our best alternative has to be the USA. Nonetheless, I have to agree James, we'd be better off without a bully. Oh well, Europe isn't so much affected by bully America anyways so it doesn't matter that much to me.

------------------


[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 11-06-2001).]

believe it or not it is, you may not notice that american is a very popular european brand, I see at least 50 american flags per day on clothing and bag as well as everywhere else. America effects everything in europe except maybe the cheese...thank god and the chocolate. and the point he made in spanish I thouhgt was like the english saying "the lesser of the two evils" well nice talking

Just consent to the existence of a lesser "evil" as you won't get much further. You can't erradicate irrationality and have everyone act altruistically. That's sheer madness. And I have the impression you would like that regime to be implemented.

------------------
[This message has been edited by MesserschmidtBf109 (edited 09-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 11-06-2001).]

Well, well, well...I`m here again.
For the americans:I know that many people has lost a member of his family.But the violence is punched out with peace, no with more violence.Many countries has been atacked from many years ago.They did atacked a country, an entire country because ten terrorists destroyed a building.The terrorism will exist forever.Remember:the terrorism is fighted with peace, no with more terrorism.
Para MesserschmidtBf109:de donde eres.Debo hacerte una aclaracion:no estoy atacando a EEUU, estoy abriendole los ojos pues esta guerra puede ir mas alla que a una simple guerra contra el terrorismo.Se puede convertir en mundial.Siempre cito a Nostradamus, pues el predijo algo similar que desembocaria en una guerra mundial, la mas devastadora de la historia.Recuerda que cuando un pais esta desesperado usara todos los medios para sobrevivir.La violencia ira a limites inimaginados.Me da gusto que en TOTSE hayan personas que hablen espa�ol y estria bien que algunos articulos fueran escritos en espa�ol.
Well, bye.


------------------
"Tokky T"

I forgot something, is URUGUAY, not uraguay.

Tokky, soy espa�ol y vivo en Bruselas donde se encuentra la sede de la Uni�n Europea de la cual Espa�a es miembro. Para decirte la verdad, no creo que esto se convierta en Guerra Mundial. Las predicciones de Nostradamus son tan ambiguas que podr�an referirse a cualquier cosa. Es probable que haya escalaci�n en el conflicto pero a un nivel regional que afectar� a Afganist�n y sus vecinos si es que los EE.UU. deciden finalmente atacar al r�gimen Talib�n. Todo depende del desarollo de las circunstancias, y lo peor que le podr�a ocurrir a los estadounidenses es que sufriesen una humillaci�n en Afganist�n como la sufrida en Vietnam durante los a�os 60 y 70.

------------------


[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 11-06-2001).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tokky_T:

For the americans:I know that many people has lost a member of his family.But the violence is punched out with peace, no with more violence.Many countries has been atacked from many years ago.They did atacked a country, an entire country because ten terrorists destroyed a building.The terrorism will exist forever.Remember:the terrorism is fighted with peace, no with more terrorism.

---

OK, Tokky,

First, let us hear your idea about how terrorism can be destroyed with peace.

It is my opinion, (humbly) that men of this calibre will only stop when they are dead.

I'm not entirely sure (in my own mind) that Bin Laden is responsible (for this particular act) but he is responsible for countless other acts, in other countries, and even if he didn't do this, he is a menace to all nations, the world over, including Uruguay. If the United States doesn't stop him, what chance do you think Uruguay has of stopping him when it's your turn?

I'm not trying to sound "better than thou" I'm just asking a straight up question.

In a way, by going after Bin Laden now, The United States is protecting YOU.

If you feel the United States has "sleighted" Uruguay in some way, how about sharing it with us?




------------------
Big Fat Daddy

quote:

---

Originally posted by MesserschmidtBf109:
Todo depende del desarollo de las circunstancias, y lo peor que le podr�a ocurrir a los estadounidenses es que sufriesen una humillaci�n en Afganist�n como la sufrida en Vietnam durante los a�os 60 y 70.

[/B]

---

Messer: ( I hope you don't mind the familiarity, I couldn't remember how to spell it.)

I gather (my Spanish is a little rusty, so correct me if I am wrong) that you are telling Tokky that the US will suffer the same humiliation in Afghanistan that we suffered in Viet Nam in the 60's and 70's, and that we are in for a surprise.

Well, that may be so, and it probably is. But I believe it was you who said you preferred a bully like the US to one like Iraq, Iran, etc.

So, my question is: Where do you stand, if there IS a war? I mean a WORLD WAR? You seem to be playing both sides of the argument, and I may be out of line with this, but I'm just curious, "Where do YOU stand, if there IS a war?"

Now, I know "the lesser of the two evils" argument, but that don't wash with me. This (in my humble opinion) is a "good vs evil" topic, and I just wondered where YOU, personally, would stand, in the event of World War.

It's really none of my business, and I freely admit that, but a wise man once said, "To learn means asking questions."



------------------
Big Fat Daddy

Actually that was an almost faultless translation except for one important element: I said that the worst thing that could happen to the US would be to suffer a humiliation like that in Vietnam, but yes, I rectify that and say that its the most probable thing to happen if the US relies on brutal military strength.

Furthermore, how can you be so na�ve to view this as a good against evil conflict. The killing civilians is "evil" enough but there's no point in killing more innocents through a massive military onslaught. I don't stand on either side in case of "war" (conventional war that is, such as the case of Vietnam), if it comes to that the US has lost its fight for "Infinite Justice" (love the paradox behind that name). Nevertheless you are right, I prefer the bullying of the "imperialistic" US to that of the "barbaric" Iraqis.

America only wants the best for all nations.
We have always fought wars with a "code of justice". We have always been careful not to injure innocent people. Our innocent citizens have been attacked. The people who have done this are purely evil. Not all of their race; just the ones who where giving the orders. You really can't blame the people who are given no opportunity to get more than a 3rd grade education. These terrorist don't give a shit in the world about anyone (especially their own people).
I think that our government is doing an outstanding job in handling the situation.

------------------
Suck my sig.

messer are you aware that nato headquarters in your hometown there was a target.

would you have this same position had that target been successfully hit?

no matter what you say i doubt it.

and until one civilian is killed in a military conflict.

SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT.

how about this. are you aware of the amount of defectors the taliban army has now joining the northern alliance.

are you aware how many afghan's want the taliban out of afghanistan.

how about this loss of civilian life, if you are old enough to carry a gun in afghanistan you are being recruited in the taliban army.

if you refuse you are shot.

and now that you've finished with pearl harbor, you keep talking vietnam.

are you aware that although the war was considered a losing battle,

it showed the world and the russians and chinese inparticular that we will fight communism and fight it hard.

the cuban missile crisis, the vietnam war, and reagan and bush sr. all played critical roles in the downfall of communism in russia and made china take a non-aggressive stance.

stop, please stop, for the love of god, stop making references that don't apply.

and all the talk i hear of is military surgical strikes taking out bases and training camps.

stop your non-sensical bullshit about targeting civilians until a civilian is targeted.

brussels was saved this time,

if nothing is done what's your guarantee it will be the next time?

I'm replying to your simply because I find some of the things you said amusing. Otherwise I wouldn't bother "enlightening" you.

"America only wants the best for all nations."

Of course America wants the best for all nations, that is, all nations that supply it with oil, or metal ores or any other resource. It doesn't give a shit about countries that don't provide it with anything. Why did it take so long for America to get involved in Yugoslavia and only a few months when oil rich Kuwait was invaded? Don't tell me that it was "fighting for justice". Ha, it was fighting for oil in the latter case, and it got involved because European allies pressured it too. Don't tell me America is much better in that sense than any other nation. They probably don't teach that at school, or do they?

"We have always fought wars with a 'code of justice'. We have always been careful not to injure innocent people."

Right, is that why thousands and thousands died in the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki where the first nukes were dropped. Or the phosphoros bombing of Tokio, or the bombing of Camboya just to test weapons, or Vietnam? Does Dresden remind you of anything? There's an endless list of examples which show the US is directly responsible for millions of civilian deaths during war-time.

"The people who have done this are purely evil. Not all of their race; just the ones who where giving the orders. You really can't blame the people who are given no opportunity to get more than a 3rd grade education. These terrorist don't give a shit in the world about anyone (especially their own people). I think that our government is doing an outstanding job in handling the situation."

I agree that these terrorist are "evil" and deserve punishment. But you can't mount a massive onslaught against a hidden enemy. Investigations (which are being carried forth now) are the only feasible and "just" alternative. Then, when the culprits are seized they should be incarcerated for lifetime. I say imprisioned because by killing them they only become martyrs to their people and more suicide attacks could very probably follow. As to the job of the government it has been good precisely because European leaders have been there to moderate decisions. They have urged against a direct military strike and have also asked Bush to rephrase his "villifying" speeches. (such as Infinite Justice, etc...)

------------------

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 11-06-2001).]

And you Lostmind, don't credit the downfall of communism to US military intervention. Communism fell because it couldn't keep up with the free-market economy of the West. It was an archaic system in Russia that didn't allow for freedom. It collapsed precisely because citizens were granted too much liberty for the originally autocratic regime to cope with.

i didn't think i would have to paste it here as well. i'll be just for the subject matter.

Bush and Company's Grab for a Blank Check
We've been treated to some astonishingly vile images over the last two weeks: office workers hurling themselves into a hundred-floor-high abyss. A gaping, smouldering hole in the financial center of our greatest city. George W. Bush passing himself off as a patriot, even as he disassembles the Constitution with the voracious glee of piranha skeletonizing a cow.

"There is no opposition party," Republican congressional leader Trent Lott chillingly announced as Democratic counterpart Tom Daschle watched in silent, cowed assent after Bush's speech to a joint session of Congress. And even if it's mainly the result of our pathetic desire to follow someone -- anyone -- in the aftermath of Sept. 11, there's little opposition out in the cities and towns across our vast continent: Bush's job-approval rating is hovering up there with puppies and sunny days.

It may have seemed meaningless at the time, but now we know why 7,000 people sacrificed their lives -- so that we'd all forget how Bush stole a presidential election. And as it turns out, national amnesia was only the beginning.

"War" was declared against America Sept. 11, Bush told us, and we're declaring "war" right back. War against whom? Afghanistan? Iraq? Canada? You declare war against a nation-state, not against terrorists living inside a country. You can ask a foreign government to extradite accused terrorists for trial, but you're not likely to get very far if you don't share good diplomatic relations. According to the Constitution, the president doesn't declare war -- Congress does.

Without so much as an invocation of the Constitution-bending War Powers Act -- which would allow the president to commit troops for a limited time -- here we are at "war." Troops are being mobilized and allies are being gathered to fight ... whomever. Whatever. Wherever. Wallowing in a level of cynicism unseen since Lyndon Johnson conned Congress into the Vietnam War based on a Tonkin Gulf incident that never happened, Bush has capitalized on a nation's grief, confusion and anger to extort a political blank check payable in young American blood.

Oh, right. First we have to "get" -- read, murder -- alleged terrorist mastermind and perennial bugaboo Osama bin Laden. "We rule out the possibility of his handover to America without substantial evidence," Taliban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutmaen said Sept. 24. This demand is nothing more than any country, not least the United States, would insist upon before extradition; the Bushies call this adherence to basic international law "a stalling tactic." But even if you don't believe that the Afghan government deserves this courtesy after all they've done (whatever that is), how about us? After all, we live -- or lived, before the Supreme Court subverted it last December -- in a democracy. Aren't we entitled to see some definitive proof tying bin Laden and/or the Taliban to the hijack attacks before we send our sons and daughters off to die in the Hindu Kush?

JFK showed us survelliance photos of Soviet missiles in Cuba. TV cameras followed troops into battle in Vietnam. But according to an anonymous defense official quoted by Reuters, "There is a new way of doing business here, and it's not in the sunshine." And the "war" itself will be waged far away from prying journalists. "It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations -- secret even in success," smirks Bush.

We're at war with whoever Bush decides is our enemy. Not only won't he tell us how or why they're our enemies, he won't tell us how or why we're attacking them or how or why our citizens are getting killed trying to do it. Welcome to 'cause-I-said-so-ocracy. "Operations like those mounted by special forces are played out in the shadows," Edward Turzanski, a LaSalle University national security analyst, told Reuters. "It is not even clear that operations in which troops might be killed will be disclosed, at least right away."

"It's important as this war progresses that the American people understand we make decisions based upon classified information, and we will not jeopardize the sources," Bush arrogantly announced Sept. 24. "We will not make the war more difficult to win by publicly disclosing classified information."

For a man who hired goons to physically threaten Florida election officials, Bush is asking an awful lot of us in his one-man war against the world. Let's get this straight: We're supposed to believe this guy's account of "classified" information -- even while he tells us that, from now on, he'll be lying to us for our own good?

If ever there was a classic naked-emperor moment, it was the morning after Bush's address to Congress. A competently delivered, committee-written hack job was breathlessly equated by liberals and conservatives alike to FDR's and Churchill's soaring oratorical highlights. Such is our craving for leadership that we're annointing a doltish daddy's-boy who still won't come clean about his DWI record with the mandate of heaven.

Pacificism is no way to run a superpower. If concrete proof can be presented that a group or individual directly participated in the massacre of thousands of New Yorkers and Washingtonians, those people deserve to be brought to justice or killed in the attempt to apprehend them. I, for one, would shed no tears for the inhumane scum who caused so much misery to so many. But the memories of our dead will be poorly served if we let right-wing extremists bring about the imperial presidency Bush is shoving down our throats. Blank-check democracy, if you stop to think about it, is no democracy at all.

m.s.-t.r.


it's in the SG forum, "bush moves into silent dissent."

quote:

---

Originally posted by MesserschmidtBf109:
And you Lostmind, don't credit the downfall of communism to US military intervention. Communism fell because it couldn't keep up with the free-market economy of the West. It was an archaic system in Russia that didn't allow for freedom. It collapsed precisely because citizens were granted too much liberty for the originally autocratic regime to cope with.

---

messer,
you might not be aware of this, but i'm what you would call a dissident. i'm lithuanian, originally. i took the only stance available on january 13, 1991. i had friends that died, all for nothing. i had hopes, i had intentions, i had a life to look forward to. i think it's safe to assume you were safely tucked away in belgium, which leaves you to only theorize as to what were the causes of the soviet fall. i'm afraid you weren't there, sitting alone in cold, hoping for it to end, listening for tanks, and watching tracers, buzz into the night. your safe cradle of humanitarian democracy, couldn't even put your own government into the first gear to acknowledge independence of the country much smaller than your own. i don't think you have enough credibility to contrast and compare, except on paper, and in theory. don't you dare strip people of their ideals. my friends didn't die so little fucks like you could theorize about "too much liberty for the originally autocratic regime to cope with."

ps:you know, i just thought of it now, why am i angry at you? ten years ago you were nothing but a 8 or 9 year old boy, still playing tonka toys. and now you're left with nothing but history. you're entitled to your own train of thought; don't forget to get off in time, before it takes you too far into the land of ignorance. i know it sounds weary by now, but i took part in making that history. it probably doesn't matter to you, and it probably shouldn't, since you won't ever have an experience similar, at least i hope you don't. just don't become another defiant exile, there's plenty of assholes as it is.

[This message has been edited by sckbch (edited 10-05-2001).]

As a matter of fact, 10 years ago I lived in the German city of Berlin, the West portion of the city, and was fearful that there might be conflict over the fall of the Wall. Moreover, do you know what it feels like when your country was separated for over 40 years, the same culture separated because of the polirization of politics? I am very opposed to the Nazi asshole Defiant, but don't claim I don't know what the Cold War felt like.

no, i'm afraid you don't know what cold war feels like, especially living in the west part of berlin.

that's just the same as an american claiming he knows what cold war feels like because he lived in florida during cuban misslie crisis.

I had relatives and friends living in the East, in Marzahn specifically.

just goes to prove my point.

well sckbch it all depends on the point of view. If you tell an european citizen about cuban misslie crisis, they�re going like, oh yes, those cigar throwing cubans. If you tell an american citizen about the cold war and living in the west part of berlin then he tells you, that you�re not knowing jack.
Both right and both wrong. In a different way. Both places actually could have been the birthplace for WW3.

And I�m not drunk! Just think about it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MesserschmidtBf109:


Furthermore, how can you be so na�ve to view this as a good against evil conflict. The killing civilians is "evil" enough but there's no point in killing more innocents through a massive military onslaught. [/B]

---

You are right, except for the naive thing. I'm not naive, I know the US government does things that are not "accepted" in certain circles. But that doesn't mean we (the people) are the "Devils" you try to make us out to be.

Sure, there are some officials here who have their own best interests at heart, and say to hell with the rest of us, just as I'm sure YOUR country has such officials. So, that means we aren't so much different.

Let me ask you: You are a resident of Belgium, does Belgium do things that are in Belgium's best interest? Of course they do. And rightly so. If Belgium doesn't look after it's own best interests, who will? Scotland??? Uruguay???

Secondly, I agree with your statement that innocent civilians (in Afghanistan) shouldn't be massacred. It's the same as the above paragraph, they have officials who are looking out for their own best interests, and not that of the common man. Unless they (the civilians) bear arms against the United States, I doubt they'll be messed with. Besides, if we massacre the innocent civilians, we'll be no better than the ones who started this mess.

And we know that. We can't react with the same tactics they used, and then still comdemn them for those tactics. It's not only hypocritical, but it would be suicidal for us from a "the rest of the world" view point.

However, what would you have us do? Turn the other cheek? That would be suicidal for us too, wouldn't you agree? The old, "Dog pack" theory would be tested, then. All the other countries with grudges would decide that since we didn't retaliate, they'd try their hands at an attack. We'd be a country of ashes and debris in no time. Besides that, we don't WANT to turn the other cheek. We want the people who did this, and we want them dead or alive. I say dead because I've never heard of a dead man bombing anyone.

Lastly, I address the part where you ask "How can you . . .view this as a good against evil conflict?"

You, yourself, said the terrorists were evil, and I quote: "The killing civilians is "evil . . ." so I don't have to make that argument. As for the good, I am a "good" person. Most of the people I know personally are "good" people. This was an attack against PEOPLE. I know there are some bad apples in the barrel, and I don't deny that, but I have to believe that MOST people are good people. This is debateable, though, but it's what I believe.

This was an attack on "good" people, and I'm not talking about government officials, I'm talking about the "common" Joe, who was on his way to Los Angeles to see a loved one, or the "common" Jane who was working so her kids could go to college someday.

This was an attack on these "good" people, and that's why it's a "good vs evil" conflict.

There was a reason why these people didn't hi-jack an airliner at 3:00 am that morning, and crash it into the buildings. They wanted to "get" as many "innocent civilians" as they could. They were AIMING for the "common Joe" and "common Jane." That's why it's a "good vs evil" conflict.




------------------
Big Fat Daddy

quote:

---

Originally posted by James1rob:
. America effects everything in europe except maybe the cheese...thank god and the chocolate.

---

You never been to Northern California I take it. Our Chocolate, Cheeses and Wines are just as good as Europes if not better. We have better climate and happier cows.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MesserschmidtBf109:

Of course America wants the best for all nations, that is, all nations that supply it with oil, or metal ores or any other resource. It doesn't give a shit about countries that don't provide it with anything.

Does Belguim care about those countries that don't supply it with oils, or metal ores, or some other resource?

Again, as in the above post, EVERY country looks out after it's own best interests, and just because you or I don't agree, doesn't mean a thing, and certainly doesn't change anything.

The only way to change anything in this country, is to band together, and speak as one voice. There are, how many? Maybe 10,000 people who are members on this board? I know there aren't that many, but let's round it off to 10,000, just to make sure we cover everyone.

Now, of those 10,000 there are maybe 100 who have even posted, but let's round that up to oh, say, 500. Now, of those 500, there are maybe 20 who have expressed any kind of opinion, but let's say 200, just to be sure we get everyone.

Now, of those 200, perhaps 5 have AGREED on any one particular topic, but let's make sure we get everyone, so we'll say 50.

That's maybe 50 people out of 10,000,( or 5,000 if you prefer or even 1,000) who can agree on a particular topic.

It'll never happen that all of us will agree, with enough conviction, to change anything in this country, or any other.

Brute force, however, changes things everyday.

Now, that may be a barbaric attitude, but it's true, too.

Here is a challenge, to anybody who feels like they want to take it up:

Find one topic of conversation that EVERYONE on this board will agree on.

Good luck.



------------------
Big Fat Daddy

I never said that any European nation wasn't as self-centered and egoistic as that, all I was stating was that GirlyGirl was wrong in saying the US actually stood up to its ideals. No nation does that and if does it's out of pure self-interest.

BSK,
no argument. however, i'm american by choice, not by birth. originally born in lithuania; left right after short-lived civil war against russian army, moved to torrevieja, spain. later joined us army to get education + citizenship, discharged as reserve sergeant e-5 few years ago. so, i guess from my point of view living in west berlin and actually dodging russian bullets are two different things.

(Big Fat Daddy smiles, and offers hand to Messer for shake.)

We've found middle ground. I don't agree with ALL your ideas, but you make more sense than some of the others who post here, and you haven't had to resort to name calling and other such nonsense to get your point across.

I look foreward to more debates with you in the future.



------------------
Big Fat Daddy

*smiles at having someone less prone to taking discussion personally insulting*

You're welcome, interesting discussion by any means.

Sorry, I�m late because I�ve only the weekends to reply the messages.I will reply something to Big Fat Daddy.Uruguay has got chances to destroy Osama Bin Laden.He was here and he has a cell here.Also he has relatives in Chuy, wich is a town in Uruguay.The uruguayan military forces are waiting for Osama Bin Laden to come here and catch him
Uruguay also has the best marines in America.We have the FUSNA which are like americans SEALS but with less technology.We have COMMANDOS wich are like americans RANGERS.The only thing that we don�t have and the americans have is TECHNOLOGY...
I was forggeting something, visit my new post called "A minute of silence..."

Yeah, Tokky, I saw your post about a minute of silence.

I suppose you could go all the way back to Napoleon and cry about him too, if you wanted to. (It was probably the United States' fault he lost at Waterloo, right?)

Hell, why stop there? Let's go on back a ways, and cry about how bad the Egyptians treated the Children of Isreal while we're at it. Did you know Pharoh was an American, too?

It was probably Americans that caused The Almighty to decide to flood the earth, too, wasn't it?
You know, back in Noah's time? One thing's for sure though, Noah wasn't no American, was he Tokky? No American would have found favor in The Lord's sight, I guaronteeeee! (That's the Cajun coming out in me.)

I'm sorry to the rest of you, for putting this crap on here for you to read, but I just have trouble taking Tokky seriously. I don't know what it is that makes me feel that way. Maybe it's because nearly every post I've read by him, he's WHINING (hint hint) about how somebody ELSE is being mistreated or how the United States is to blame for something.

Hey, Tokky, ever hear of "CONSTRUCTIVE" criticism?

"And don't stick your tongue out at me, kid." - Ballou (the bear) to Sir Hiss (the snake) - (Walt Disney's "Robin Hood"




------------------
Big Fat Daddy

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot something, Tokky.

(Seriously) If Bin Laden comes to Uruguay, I hope, sincerely, that ya'll catch him. I don't really care who gets him, so long as SOMEBODY gets him. I don't care if he faces charges here (in the US) or somewhere else, just so long as somebody gets him, and takes him out of circulation.

[This message has been edited by Big Fat Daddy (edited 10-07-2001).]

ok sckbch, you�ve had a hard time. But I would call this experiences you�ve made with russians, military and with communism.

In West Berlin there had been a cellar filled up with food, preparing the city for the case, the communists �sieged` the city. Can you imagine a cellar that can keep food for more than a million people for a week?

Btw, how old are you? I�m 25.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tokky_T:
SA vs the world.USA vs Mars.USA vs the universe.

---

How about the United States vs the moon? http://www.radio4all.org/anarchy/moon.html

Many senators in the United States along with General MacArthur also wanted to nuke North Korea in the Korean war.

/Snip
"The United States weighed a plan to detonate a nuclear bomb on the moon
as a show of military and technical
strength during the feverish post-Sputnik days of the cold war, a
physicist involved in the plan said.
The physicist, Leonard Reiffel, 72, said yesterday that he was in charge
of a highly classified study of the blast's visibility, its possible
science benefits and its effects on the moon's face. His research got
under way
in 1958, sponsored by the Air Force special weapons center in
Albuquerque, and involved up to 10 people on his staff, including Carl
Sagan, then a young astronomer and later a famous popularizer of
science.
"The foremost intent was to impress the world with the prowess of the
United States," Dr. Reiffel said in an interview. "It was a P.R. device,
without question, in the minds of the people from the Air Force."
/Snap

[This message has been edited by Peter_Kropotkin (edited 11-05-2001).]

Yeah.The americans are crazy.THey think that they are strong, but they are to weak that a group of terrorists can destroy a lot of importants buildings without been discovered.Now is the antrax.USA wants to guilt someone, but perhaps this someone is american to!!!Perhaps the antrax is coming from USA.Think about it.

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"Tokky T"
__
/ \
@@ |
( |
| | _
\ \/ \_
\___!__)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tokky_T:
Yeah.The americans are crazy.THey think that they are strong, but they are to weak that a group of terrorists can destroy a lot of importants buildings without been discovered.

---

Tell me one country that wouldn't have allowed terrorists to strike? Uraguay? Please, no more bullshit.

quote:

---

*smiles at having someone less prone to taking discussion personally insulting*

---

sometimes it's more fun to pretend like you're personally insulted. it certainly adds a little pep to the situation.

i still do it to often though..........

------------------
Come on without,
Come on within,
You'll not see nothing like the mighty Quinn

Big Fat Daddy---you are the GREATEST!! Tokky_T, you are so STUPID!! I am a Filipina, Tokky_T.--you and I have one thing in common---we are both "brown". But I am not from a tiny, unknown, irrelevant country, (Uraguay---Good Grief, Charlie Brown!!), NOR DO I HAVE STUPID IDEAS LIKE YOU about America. America and Americans are NOT evil. They are a good nation and a good people. They do not attack people because they are "brown". Don't forget that the terrorists attacked American first. And America would (and should) have justifiably responded with a counter-attack whether the terrorists had been brown, green, purple, or lavender. Sorry, Mr. Tokky_T, you should think this one out better, and you should definitely post an apology to America and Americans for the things you have said. If you are not man (or woman) enough to apologize, please at least let everyone know that you do not speak for "brown" people, but only for yourself--also let them know that you are a rude, unfair and unthinking person from a country nobody even knows or cares about. Love, Venus.

The US is the most hypocritical nation on this planet and is responsible for more deaths than any other nation throughout the globe. But that's normal, considering its position as the first world power. But that doesn't make it a good nation by any means.

[This message has been edited by MesserschmidtBf109 (edited 12-18-2001).]

But it also doesn't mean that every american is evil

Praying Manits---you are so correct. Not every single Englishperson is good, but that doesn't make England a bad or evil nation. Not all Uruguaians (or is it Uruguanies?) are good, but that does not make Uruguay a bad or evil nation. There are bad INDIVIDUALS in EVERY nation (bet I could find at least one in Uruguay, Mr. Tokki_T), but that doesn't make Uruguay a bad or evil nation. (In fact, where IS Uruguay, anyway...!!?). Of course America has a bad PERSON or two (like for example, McVay and Charles Manson), but that doesn't make America bad. America correctly punishes the bad people. It does not support, encourage or "harbor" them. It is a generous nation, and it lets people from many lands enjoy its hospitality. Sometimes a terrorist (wearing "sheep clothing"---like for example appearing to be a "student") will take advantage of the situation, and sneak (or "slither" would be a better word) into the country, and commit an evil act of terrorism. Don't blame America for that---blame the foreign nation or evil organization or fanatical cult that trained the evil intruder. Mr. Tokki must find a better argument. In fact a different "soap-box" would be a better idea. And he should apologize to America and Americans for all the ugly, inaccurate (can I please also say "stupid") things he has said here about America. Shame on you Mr. Tokki_T!!. Love, Venus.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MesserschmidtBf109:
The US is the most hypocritical nation on this planet and is responsible for more deaths than any other nation throughout the globe. But that's normal, considering its position as the first world power. But that doesn't make it a [b]good nation by any means.

[This message has been edited by MesserschmidtBf109 (edited 12-18-2001).][/B]

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i think the christian, catholic, jewish, and muslim faiths are far worse than the US. religeons are nations too. together historically, these organizations are responsible for more war and death and war than this 200+ year old country.....

quote:

---

Originally posted by preying mantis:
But it also doesn't mean that every american is evil

---

Well Hitler* in my opinion was evil. He thought he was doing what was best for his countrymen and in his mind that invovled killing millions. To not be evil, to me, is to not do harm or kill people who did not have it coming to them, not to just think that are not doing harm. Those American button pushing fighter pilots who murder dozens of people think they do no harm when they sleep with their wives, in reality they killed many people who even supposing their governments demonizing the enemy government, are innocent.

It is about perspective. Those American fighter pilots who bomb innocent Iraqis to the American public who do not even know what they are really doing in Iraq, because all their information(even their fucking minds) are filtered, think they are heroes. To me they are murderers. If a man kills a man, an innocen,t he is murderer even if he wears a military uniform. There is some kind of myth that your nation can absolve you from crimes.

I am an anarchist so I do not equate right and wrong with codified laws superimposed on people forcibly through government. Right and wrong is dictated by my morality. I will never be some goosestepping German, a murdering Maoist or Stalinist, because I will never fall for the trappings of this codified right and wrong. The kind of thinking that led the Young Turks, to the idea that it is ok to kill Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians because they control the law. The law is not justice. The law is what is in the interest of the stronger party. If the Young Turks inherit a crumbling empire wiht many and they need to use demagogurey to get their countrymen scared of enemies amongst them so they can ignore the real problems, and focus on the problems that the government invented, they will believe their lies and kill and feel heroes for it. If the strong's interest is killing Palestineans in Israel, then the Israeli army will snipe them randomly. Ask Ariel Sharon.

"I have been told that the people who died during the events that took place on Tuesday, September 11 are innocent people. I disagree, when a country who controls 90 percent of the world goes and inflicts policies which cause famine and policies that create war where millions of people are killed. The citizens of that country cannot be considered innocent. These people are ignorant not innocent.

Hear, 15 countries in which the U.S government has inflicted acts of terror upon:

1)Korea--millions killed
Vietnam--millions killed
Cambodia--hundreds of thousands killed
Laos--hundreds of thousands killed
Iraq--hundreds of thousands killed
Guatemala--hundreds of thousands killed
Hiroshima and Nagasaki--hundreds of thousands killed
East Timor--hundreds of thousands killed
Nicaragua--tens of thousands killed
El salvador--tens of thousands killed
Colombia--tens of thousands killed
Dominican Republic--thousands killed
Haiti--thousands killed
yugoslavia--thousands killed
Panama--hundreds killed "


In short, most Americans with their filtered minds do not know what evil is any longer. They are so incredulous as to not allow themselves to believe that their government is lieing, and killing more than most other nations.

*I hate to have to keep using Hitler as an example but most people do not know much about other modern demagogues like him: Stalin, Mao Zedong, Ataturk.



[This message has been edited by Peter_Kropotkin (edited 12-20-2001).]

Your mind has been filtered to only see the bad in America. I'm not saying the US is all that great, but it really isn't as bad as you put it. Consider this, the Americans were smart enough to never commit genocide against their own citizens, as did the Khmer Rouge, Stalin, Hitler, the Indonesians, the Iraqis, the Turks and countless others. Both Peter and Canyonero resemble each other very much, both have been brain washed bu their respective ideologies, one who conforms to what he has been taught, the other rebelling, both lacking any capability of synthesis or intelligent analysis.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter_Kropotkin:
It is about perspective. Those American fighter pilots who bomb innocent Iraqis to the American public who do not even know what they are really doing in Iraq,

---

They are bombing innocent iraqis that follow saddam to stop iraq from murdering the few million kurds and other ethnic minorities that are living in tents on the border. Yuo say america is so bad for kiling thousands upon thousands of people through the last century, but if americans didn't maintain their no fly zones then Iraq would also kill thousands upon thousands of Kurds. This would obviously be with the support of the innocent iraquis that america are suppossedly bombing. Does this make them any different from the average american person not stopping the american government from killing people, do you see iraqis stopping saddam from trying to commite genocide?

quote:

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think they are heroes.

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No they don't. Most Americans probably don't even know they fly over Iraq every single day.

quote:

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To me they are murderers. If a man kills a man, an innocen,t he is murderer even if he wears a military uniform. There is some kind of myth that your nation can absolve you from crimes.

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The same government that made it a crime. Whoever said that it was a crime to commit murder? It states it in the bible, in the law etc, but at the end of the day we are the only species on earth to have laws. If all other species can kill each other and not fall over dead in punishment then why can't we? If you are an anarchist, why do you belive so strongly in the laws of a government and a book?

quote:

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I am an anarchist so I do not equate right and wrong with codified laws superimposed on people forcibly through government.

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Yes you do, see previous quote. You directly stated that "If a man kills a man, an innocen,t he is murderer" which is a law forcibly imposed by the government which strangely enough you no longer seem to support in the next paragraph.

quote:

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Right and wrong is dictated by my morality. I will never be some goosestepping German, a murdering Maoist or Stalinist, because I will never fall for the trappings of this codified right and wrong.

---

But you just did two paragraphs ago.

quote:

---

"I have been told that the people who died during the events that took place on Tuesday, September 11 are innocent people. I disagree, when a country who controls 90 percent of the world goes and inflicts policies which cause famine and policies that create war where millions of people are killed. The citizens of that country cannot be considered innocent. These people are ignorant not innocent.

---

Where do i start. America is a democracy. That means the government that supports these crimes need the support of a majority, why else were they voted in. Why do americans not storm the white house, because there are not enough disbelivers. Doesn't mean they don't exist. In fact you'll find a lot of them on this site. Some even have the same principles as you. Just because they are a citizen of america does that make them evil, even when they disagree with the evil.

You specifically stated that ALL americans are evil. I stated that not all americans are evil. The ones with the power maybe, but the average american is not.

Why weren't they innocent. What if you had been there having lunch when the attack happened. Would that make you ignorant? How do you know that half of those that died didn't agree with US policies, but were working in the WTC to feed their families? Basically you don't know shit.

Hear, 15 countries in which the U.S government has inflicted acts of terror upon:

quote:

---

1)Korea--millions killed

---

But saved many more people by stopping the north koreans from massacring many south koreans. It could have been a second Nanking

quote:

---

Vietnam--millions killed

---

I fail to see where you got that number from.

quote:

---

Cambodia--hundreds of thousands killed
Laos--hundreds of thousands killed

---

Same with these two, did you make those figures up?

quote:

---

Iraq--hundreds of thousands killed

---

Same as with the fighter pilots. If Iraq promise to give up and stop making chemical weapons and to let the Kurdish refugees back into their homes (incidently the iraqis have [probably killed more kurds than americans have killed iraqis) then the sanctions will stop. Basically i can't see how you acuse america of being international terrorists yet fail to see iraq in the same light for doing what they are doing (which happens to be worse than what you say the americans are doing) I'd like to know exactly why you think ALL americans are bad, yet ALL iraqis are good. I fail to see any intelligence used to deduct this!

quote:

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki--hundreds of thousands killed

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To save the live of hundreds of thousands of americans. If you fail to see why then just ask and i'll give you a simple history lesson on the latter part of the second world war.

Would it be ok if hundreds of thousands of american to die instead. People still died, the americans probably more painfully. You condem hitler and his killing of millions, yet you condem amarica for trying to stop exactly the same thing the other side of the world. YET AGAIN i fail to see the logic.

Also america had nothing to gain in this war, which they joined because japan had aggresively attacked them when they weren't involved. They didn't Bomb hiroshima and nagasaki for any other reason but to stop an aggresive country spilling more blood. Also incidently japan killed more allied soldiers, chinese civilians/soldiers (plus commited acts of barbarism like nanking) than japanese died in the entire war. But sorry, the americans are evil aren't they!!!

East Timor--hundreds of thousands killed
Nicaragua--tens of thousands killed
El salvador--tens of thousands killed
Colombia--tens of thousands killed
Dominican Republic--thousands killed
Haiti--thousands killed
yugoslavia--thousands killed
Panama--hundreds killed "

Jesus, this is atarting to get boring. You spew more contradictions and bullsjit than a politician.

quote:

---

In short, most Americans with their filtered minds do not know what evil is any longer. They are so incredulous as to not allow themselves to believe that their government is lieing, and killing more than most other nations.

---

Sounds to me that you seem to have an even more filtered mind as you seem to forget little details like Iraqi genocide, japanese attrocities and the fact america didn't start vietnam in any way, they just got involved and ended up killing a lot of people, in self defence of course as all of the numbers stated where probably out to kill the americans. Its a jungle out there.

As previously stated in a previous post, you listen to too much anti-american bullshit. You say you don't but you can't even get basic historical facts right (or seem to conviniently forget them). You hate america because you think its cool. You stated you are an anarchist. Forgive me if i'm wrong but doesn't that mean you oppose all over forms of government? Yet you seem to hate america over all the other countries on this planet. Why? Because they've killed a lot of people, half of which deserved it.

I spent a lot of time writing this so please take the time to read and respond.

Thanks,

Mantis

[This message has been edited by preying mantis (edited 12-21-2001).]

i read the whole thing mantis, i didn't have the capacity to write it myself, but thanks for every word

Why criticize Iraq and not Turkey? Maybe because what Turkey does gets little negative media coverage is my guess, since they are an ally with the Western nations.

>>"They are bombing innocent iraqis that follow saddam to stop iraq from murdering the few million kurds and other ethnic minorities that are living in tents on the border. "

They do not care for the Kurds. What do you think Turkey is doing? They were randomly attacking Kurdish villages the PKK was operating in ever since their war with the PKK. What do you think they are trying to do with their dam project, they want to displace millions of Kurds from their homes.

When Turkey kills Kurds it is ok, even just. The Kurds who rebel against Turkey are terrorists. When the Kurds fight Iraq they are freedom fighters. Wake up. The only difference is that Turkey is the ally of America and Iraq is seen as an enemy.

>>"Also america had nothing to gain in this war, which they joined because japan had aggresively attacked them when they weren't involved."

Japan attacked Hawaii. Hawaii was nothing more than a colony at that point in time. "The islands became a U.S. territory in 1900, which was admitted as the 50th state in 1959." The U.S. calls their colonies territories.

You need a history lesson, not me. The United States was not neutral at that time. Before the colony of Hawaii was attacked the Americans had long since been engaging German u-boats and sinking them. They helped the British protect their Atlantic shipping against U-boats and gave lots of war supplies to Britain for free. United States neutrality at that point in time was a myth. They had been far too involved against the Axis powers to be considered a neutral nation.

Also of course I know the Japanese killed 30 million Chinese.

You are also reading too much into what I said, and finding things which are not there. I will finish my reply in another post, describing in greater detail where you inferred things that I never said or are innaccurate.




[This message has been edited by Peter_Kropotkin (edited 12-21-2001).]

Messer...and Praying Mantis: It is so good to read some LOGICAL, RATIONAL, and REASONABLY HISTORICALLY ACCURATE words from your postings, especially after reading Krapotkin's shrill, irrational posting. By the way, Mr. Krapotkin, you say you are an "Anarchist", and don't believe in any laws or government. But you should rethink that one, because---without the laws of government and men---your radical views would not be tolerated, and you would probably be lynched. So you probably owe your very life to the laws and institutions of government that guaranty everyone the right to express even stupid, idiotic, irrational ideas and speach like yours. What happened to you, anyway? Did you fall down some stairs or something? Love, Venus

I do not take the a priori assumption that humanity is so bereft of morality as to kill each other wildly in the absence of laws. I will not argue this point more as you seem to think it is some kind of natural law that humans have no morality and hence need laws and government.

Preying Mantis>>"You [sic]condem hitler and his killing of millions, yet you condem amarica for trying to stop exactly the same thing the other side of the world. YET AGAIN i fail to see the logic."

I condemn Hitler if he kills millions. I condem the United States because they have killed millions. I condemn the Young Turks and late Ottoman rulers for they have done the same. I condemn Mao Zedong, Stalin, Tojo, and any other demagogue who kills millions. You only condemn demagogues who are approved by your government. I am more consistent, so I get to be called anti-American.

>>"America is a democracy."

The United States is a republic.
"Let us suppose a nation existed called the United States of America. They revered the direct democracy practiced by ancient Athens. They practiced a republican form of government where people voted for representatives democratically. The American government calls their form of government a 'democratic republic', unnecessarily using the word democratic even though a republic implies that democracy will be used to choose the political class. After decades and decades of this people start to use the words democracy and republic interchangeably. The American government increasingly starts to call itself a democracy and the public swallows it. Their system is now a 'democracy' to the unlearned masses; democracy is now synonymous with a republic. The same thing happened to the Socialist economic system. "(taken from a Usenet post I wrote a while ago, so I need not repeat myself...)

Preying Mantis>>"You specifically stated that ALL [sic]americans are evil."

I never said that. I was not clear in my post, so I can see how you can infer that.

I will try to be more specific. The American public is in my opinion very amoral. They like to emotionalize issues, like the WTC thing, but they do not take the time to objectively look at what their government is doing. They are too busy it seems to be bothered with the trouble it takes.

If you know about WW2 after the Germans were defeated the German citizens were forced to march in the death camps and see what was really going on. You know what most said, that they did not know it happened. This is a good parallel to the Americans. They do not know that their government supported the invasion of Cyprus(the US government does not recognize the TRNC still to this day even though they helped create it) and East Timor displacing and killing so many people. When the Germans said they did not know, it was kind of hard to swallow that for their enemies, the Allied powers, it is hard for me to believe that so many Americans are so blissfully ignorant of their nation's actions.

I called the American people ignorant. I do not think they are evil, per say. The only reason they stand by and allow what their nation does to happen with such jingoism is because they have no idea what is going on. All the light that reaches their eyes has already been refracted through the prism of media and government. They are not getting the truth, they are hearing what the powerful want them to. This is why I feel they are amoral as they do not want to peel the onion deeper to find the truth, they are content with whatever the government and media tells them.

I do think that the American fighter pilots are evil. They are removed from who they are attacking, miles in the air but they know that they are killing lots of people and many who have nothing to with whatever government is now the media's demon.

Preying Mantis>>:"The same government that made it a crime. Whoever said that it was a crime to commit murder?"

A crime just means simply unjust. It also means when you are breaking a codified law. You seem to not know about the other meaning, unjust. Are not anarchists allowed to say what they feel is just and unjust, right or wrong? This is just one of the misconceptions in your post.

Preying Mantis:>>"You directly stated that "If a man kills a man, an [sic]innocen,t he is murderer" which is a law forcibly imposed by the government which strangely enough you no longer seem to support in the next paragraph."

Another misconception. Let us suppose that I am immoral. I have no compunctions about killing anyone. Why would a law stop me from killing someone? It would not. Many people would say that it deters people from killing for fear of punishment but it does not seem to reduce crime at all. Laws do not stop people from killing people. It is your morality that does, it is in your head, not on a piece of paper called a law.

This is why I believe laws are not necessary. What is stopping most people from killing others? The answer is their morality and not the law. I personally have never killed any person. The reason I have acted is such is not because I fear punishment but because I feel it is wrong and I could not live comfortably knowing I did such a thing.




[This message has been edited by Peter_Kropotkin (edited 12-21-2001).]

Peter, it's amazing how some of your writing appears so obviously written by the anarchist propaganda machine. You probably criticize the US for indoctrinating its citizens into believing all of its actions are legitimate, well you have also been indoctrinated by those of your kind. You aren't the free spirit you claim to be, you are but a meaningless servant to those societal lords who manipulate you. I also consider to be of the left, the moderate left, a socialist so to speak, but never will I blindly follow a socialist party because it alleges to support my own ideology. That is what you do.