It is expected that before too long nanotechnology will revolutionize everything from manufacturing to medicine. But there is one aspect that I rarely see discussed, and never to my satisfaction.

How will we power the damn things?

OK, they have designed nanotech motors that work on radio waves, and ones that are powered by the breakdown of ATP, which is the basic fuel unit of biology.

That is all well and good for small labrotory applications, and for limited medical procedures.

But how will we power the industrial nanobots? The ones that are suposed to build entire citys from raw materials, or turn carbon to diamonds. That takes a lot of juice, especialy when you are hauling everything around one atom at a time.

I could only guess that they'd be powered by some kind of radiation. Solar power for the building bots? Thermal? Maybe some sort of organic process?

I think a bigger question involved with nanotech, is the aspect of self-replication. The amount of power that we would use to create the nanobots individually would be astronomical. Therefore a self-replicatory code is essential however there's always the seed of chaos. Any sort of mutation to this code could very well spell the end of all life on earth. This is gonna be the most revolutionary technology of human history, it will also be potentially the most dangerous. I hope powering the things is our only problem! And back to the original question, radio waves will probably be utilised. I think when it becomes refined enough, other high energy waves will be used, maybe light or other backround radiation. using light may give us some level of control over the autonomous bastards!

hehe... cant help but thinking of "we have only bits and pieces of information but what we know for certain is that at some point in the early twentyfirst century all of mankind was joined in celebration. We marveled at our own magnificense as we gave birth to AI" "AI you mean artificial intelligence?" "A singular conciousness that spawned an entire race of machines. We dont know who struck first us or them. But we know that it was us who scortched the sky. At the time they we're dependant on solar power and it was believed that they would be unable to survive without an energy source as abundant as the sun. Throughout history we have been dependant upon machines to survive. Fate it seems is not without a sense of irony."

Cork it. Nanotech wasn't even mentioned in Matrix.

Yah... sorry.... it was just the above post fearing what damage nanotech could cause and possibly using solar power etc... blah blah blah


suppose I should try and contribute something a little more usefull to this thread. How small have the machines gotten at this point? Last I knew there still wasnt much of a chance of getting a lil robot to cruise around even in someones larger viens has this changed? Im sure its just a matter of time, $$$, and desire of course...

The problem is with thinking of them as robots in the conventional sense, of course at first, that is what we will strive to make them. But that avenue is already proving unsuccesful, there are already ATP powered motors and such. I think in their optimal form they will be custom molecules with information coded in their shape, not unlike dna. i didn't mean to be the paranoid harbinger of death but just think of virus's and their extremely accelerated rates of mutation, nanotech is along the same lines and as such - dangerous! peace!

Ah, Nanotechnology. Mentioned in numerous videogames, glorified in science fiction... and hard as hell to understand outside the lab.

In the game Deus Ex, by Ion Storm, nanotech is depicted both as the bringer of death and the bringer of life, in multiple ways. Nanites in that game are described as organic in nature. Most likely, nanites will be biological, with certain improvements in biochemistry to make them faster or more effecient...

As for power source, the game never answers that directly. The nanites use bio-electrical energy, which may or may not have something to do with the electricity generating organs of the electric eel. It's one theory of mine.

However, nanites might more likely be carbon based, using buckminsterfullerenes (a certain form of carbon) as a base, and different elements and compounds to perform different functions, much like the microspheres in Dean Koontz's midnight.

But once again, the power problem surfaces...

Well, a solar powered, self replicating nanotech device would be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Or any hands. We'd need to use something less abundant.

Light seems to be a way to power them.

Search on google for it though. Love the search engine... (I really should know more about this since I went to a conference on the subject... but, who remembers that?)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A62712-2002May9¬Found=true

nanotechnology is just part of a scary piece of the next generation science. robots that are the size of cells are a scary thought. biotechnology is equaly as scary as the two fields will surely mirge at some point in time. in theory this will create living microcomputers powered by some exernal source that are able to invade anywhere that has a microscopic hole or crack. certenly these robots have great potential for medicine and science but their potential for war and destruction is even greater. it is something we must all consider...

I read somewhere that the medical nano-bots were going to be run on the electronic impulses of our bodies, like nerve receptors. It seems that you could go one step farther and run the industrial ones on residual electric energy left in the air and on things (static anyone?). If that didn't work you could get one of those Tesla coils that will light a light tube from a distance and fire it up, nano-bots would only need a fraction of a watt to run on. Also, they were working on cutting them out of a silicon chip last I heard, at the rate micro-chip production advanced when they learned how to make them that way it shouldn't be long before we all have a few thousand running around in us.

I think that at least for medical nanobots they would probibly derive some of their energy kinetically, blood and most of the body is constantly in motion and I saw an article on molecular ratchets in SciAm. a few years ago. By using a molecular ratchet you could convert random motion into directed work/energy, this energy could be used to produce a charge or fuel a reaction by producing heat. If we intend nanobots to be self replicating (wich I think might not ever happen, or at least not for a loooooonnnnggg time, the chance of out of controll replication is too great) some kind of organic content is inevitable, we are far more likely to use the methods of information storage and replication that already exist in cells and microorganisms than to synthesize equivalents. One open question though: At what point does a construct become a nanobot? Say we develop artificial pacreas isles to produce insulin, they are tiny and serve a chemically programmed purpose but do not move, does something have to be motile or self directing before it is a nanobot?

I think a good measure of 'nano' would be if you can't see it with the naked eye.

The term 'bot' tends to denote some sort of mechanical process.

There is plenty of nanotech aplications that wouldn't require nanobots. Special molecular capsules that contain drugs for timed release are in the works. Carbon nanotubes will revolutionize many technologys, large cables could be used to build an elevator to outerspace, while narrow threads can be used for fine cutting implements. And there is a project in the works for developing a panel with millions of tiny hollow needles on it that can be used penitrate into the blood stream without reaching deep enough to pinch nerve cells resulting in painless injections or blood samples.

I have absolutly no doubt that nanotech will change our lives, but will nanobots be part of that change?

Buckyfibres, my brain does summersaults when I think of what will be possible with those. I used to preach about them and what they would make possible until I realized no one was believing a thing I said, and probibly thought I was spewing a load of shit. Don't have a lot of time right now, but I will be back soon. What do you think the first practical applications will be, they are using buckyball tips on scanning electron microscopes right now are the not?

I beleive so. I bet that buckyballs would make an incredibly fine lubricant for delicate equipment.

I personaly go on about nanotubes. I have a whole line of inventions lined up for the patent office as soon as nanotube fibers become avaliable.

Arent nanotubes buckyballs that are streched? Imagine the structure of a buckyball, then strech it out, repeating the pattern of atoms around the "equator" endlessly._______________________
__________/\/\/\
__________\/\/\/
__________/\/\/\
or something to that effect, but anyway,
whats in a name. I just like the name bucky.. because it relates to Buckminster Fuller and I called myself Bucky the Psychonaut back when I took too many psychedelics. The stuff will be amazing, I think the main use will be in ultra strong carbon fibre laminates. Can they ionize a carbon microfibre? It would sure help to be able to use a magnetic field to line them up in one direction, then you could crosshatch layers for maximum tensile strength. High srtength cables as you mentioned will be another use, the elevator to orbit will be great, and putting supeconducting coils on the end of a fibre streching into the magnetosphere would result in a very efficient power source. We are only scratching the surface too, buckyfibres will be the solution to problems that havn't even happened yet. On a different tack, but still somewhat relevent to nanotech, I read an article a while ago that said that current silicon based chips and magnetic storage will reach a technological plateau soon where we will not be able to make things any smaller using current materials, suggested solutions include optical storage media and molecular "punchcards". Until new technology becomes available computer manufacturers will have to concentrate on other ways of upgrading systems to make older models obsolete, what do you think these will be? I thing semi-ai interfaces will become more common, as well as verbal interfaces. Screen size and resolution will improve but I don't think we will see any goggle/glove virtual setups because the disorienting effects of being in a virtual environment can last quite a while after taking off the goggles. Of course using polarized current carrying carbon microfilaments bonded to nerve tissue in the visual cortex, laid there by nanabots would solve this!(and pull together this somewhat rambling post nicely)
Cheers.

[This message has been edited by culinaryoverlord (edited 10-08-2002).]

I think what you call buckyfibers are the same as nanotubes. Buckyballs have atomic bonds along the lines of a soccer ball. In fact the structure was determined during a soccer match.

Graphite looks like this on an atomic level:

code:

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/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \__/
\__/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \
/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \__/
\__/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \
/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \__/
\__/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \
/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \__/
\__/  \__/  \__/  \__/  \

---

Nanotubes are the same as graphate, just rolled into a tube.

code:

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     __________
  __/          \__
 / \_    __    _/ \
|\_/ \__/  \__/ \_/|
|/ \_/  \__/  \_/ \|
|\_/ \__/  \__/ \_/|
|/ \_/  \__/  \_/ \|
|\_/ \__/  \__/ \_/|
|/ \_/  \__/  \_/ \|
|\_/ \__/  \__/ \_/|
|/ \_/  \__/  \_/ \|

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Forgive my crappy ASCII rendition of a nonotube.

Now for a little chemistry behind why it is so strong. Each intersection represents a carbon atom. Each carbon atom has 4 valences (electrons free to bond into pairs). However you will notice that there are only 3 bonds shown for each carbon atom. The fourth bond runs paralell to one of the pictured bonds, creating a double bond. This makes the bond much stronger. But this bond is somewhat unstable and bonds parallel to each of the primary bonds in turn, reinforcing them all.

Heyyyy, howd you do that, good ascii, thanks for helping me visualize it, I was aware of the organic carbon valence structure (I used to think this was an explanation for "pyramid" power, I did a LOT of psychedelics) but I had not put together the spare electron connection. This should give it very interesting conductive properties, no?

[This message has been edited by culinaryoverlord (edited 10-08-2002).]

damn...im lost...but i wanna know more

The spare electron thing is a property called resonence, and is common in ring structures. Notably in benzine.

code:

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    H        H
     \      /
      \====/
      /C  C\
H____/      \____H
    \\C    C//
     \\____//
      /C  C\
     /      \
    H        H

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Actualy the unique electrical properties of carbon nanotubes are well noted. There is talk of using them insted of metal wires in the next generation of computer chips.

They also are extremly good at intercepting radio waves, so one of the first products they are planned for use in is cell phone cases.

Note: Expect ASCII chemical structures to become a regular feature when I feel that they are relevent.

quote:

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Originally posted by Prometheus:

How will we power the damn things?

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Maybe a battery that lasts for a long time and then when runs out they do an operation and put a new one in

use your imagination