I had another one of my strange thoughts. Okay if backward travel in time is ever going to be possible I know how the government can find out now. Start a massive time travel program and set out the rule that should time travel become possible one ship will be sent back in time to the day the time travel program began effectively this would mean that if backward time travel is discovered by the research program then it would only take one day to find out, if no ship returns the day after the program begins it means they never succeeded in developing backward time travel for what ever reason It could take a million years to develop the technology but in principle it would only take a day.

Or maybe not.

VIPER

If it's possible to go back into time, the technology has to be in the present in order to see any backwards travelling.

What would happen is that we set up the program, the day after nothing happens, we keep on going until we finally develop backwards time travel. We go back in time to the day after, and all of the sudden everyone has the memory of it happening.

Personally I think backwards time travel is impossible. We are constantly moving through the present, how do you know what happened 5 minutes ago? Well, it's because you have a memory. I think that the cosmos has no cosmic "memory" of what happened in the past, all it can see is whats going on in the immediate present. Time travel to the present is possible, and it's what you and me are doing this very moment, constantly moving through time at a consistent rate.

If you could go back to 5 minutes ago, there would be nothing there. and by nothing I mean nothing, no universe, no space, no nothing. You and the machine you went in would blink out of existence because there is nothing there to support you.

Future travel is possible, but your not really time travelling, your going into stasis until the designated point in the future turns into the present. You go light speed until the time (don't ask me how its possible or how you would survive it) and then drop out of light speed. Voila, your in the present at the time you specified, but it felt like you just walked in, hit the jump, and then walked right out to you.

You are still the same as when you walked in and hit light speed, but the world has changed accordingly to how long you stayed in light speed.

I agree with dark, we live in the present, and things take place in the present. Although if time operates the way the percieve it to, viper would be right. You cannot intentionally change the past or future. If you change something in the past it wouldnt have happened and you would not have gone back. If you know the future, and your are going to lose 1 dollar in 5 minutes, so u leave the dollar at home, you would never lose it so you would bring it with you. That was jumbled but i hope you can understand what im trying to say.

I was under the impression that they had proved time travel was possible, but they had no way of generating the power necessary to make the jump (yes, just like Back to the Future).

I believe like Einstein said; "All time exists at the same time". Past, present and future are running right now, we just don't have the capability to move through the dimensions.

And I don't think if time travel were ever realized that anyone would take the chance to go back in time. The slightest change could alter everything. Lets say you went back 236 years, give or take a year. You're making every effort not to be noticed or to interact with the locals. You walk past a few horses and startle one, he rears up and throws the rider off, who hits his head on a rock and dies. So long General George Washington.

Of course somebody could come up with a "prime directive" about time travel, but the variables are endless, and then you would have the other option of going back in time to stop yourself from going back in time and screwing everything up, this stuff will make you crazy.

Can you remember any time traveler killing George W?

No?

Then no time traveler will ever kill George W.

The time travel technology hasn't even been invented yet, so your not going to see any effects from time travel until it happens.

The future is unwritten.

Ya, when it happens we will all remember it happeneing before it happened, but what about j0662's post, would it still exist, beings its sole existance is based on the fact that no one ever killed geoge w?

We dont know if someone from the future killed geoge washington they might have scared him and given him a heart attack, you dont know for sure. Stuff like this is to complicate to argue about and thus their is an answer for everything, and a way to prove it but the proof is just as mysterious. And going back in time would be impossible because you wouldint exist, You cant go back in time and meet you grandpa cuz your granpa wouldnt have had you yet. If you went back and killed your mom would you dissaper?

CTR

I'm saying that you won;t see any effects from it till' someone actually goes back and does it. Noone has done it yet. We don't have the technology yet, and the future is unwritten, so nothing will result from it until the technology is in the present.

The future doesn't "know" that time travel will be invented and this guy will go back to this time and do this action, because the future is just the present at a later date. Nothing can see into the future, so you don't know what it's going to be, so if we actually get time travel next week and o back in time to tell ourselves, then we won't see any effects from it until next week rolls around and the technology is in the present.

Ok, I'm lost.

Read "End of Time" -Julian Babour

He went on with what Eistein said about all time existing at the same time, he has mathmatical proven, or seemingly proven, what has been said by mystics of vcarying religious backgrouds for thousands of years, and before you think it he's not a hack, he's one of the most respected time specialist of today

It's similar to what happens in "12 Monkeys" if anybody has seen that, I sure a lot of you would have,

But I have a good question, if I were to travel back in time tomorrow and kill myself when I was five what would be the outcome, would this post still exist?

Thats why I say going into the pst is impossible. if you could, you could cause universe negating repercussions.

What is there that remembers what happened when you were 5 besides your brain? How does the universe retai the knowledge? It probably doesn't, so you can't go to that time period.

Micko Haku, if I got his name right, possed a similar question in one of his books, but his didn't involove any deaths like mine, how ever I think that the outcome would be the same, I'm very hazy on the details, so I won't mention them, It was in "Hyperspace" if any have read it,
What happens is that it caused a perminent loop in which the guy and the rest of the people in the story, his mother and himself at varring ages, and maybe another guy, get stuck preforming the same actions for eternity,
But you make a good point Dark, what is it that "remembers" the past, I think that the current theories go that every moment is stagnent in time, like a still frame as I said, but our minds order this into past present and future, don't ask me why or how, but one thing that backs it up, apart from the reputable scientist, is that it directly correlates with spiritual advancement, untill you reach Buddhahood and all past present and future can be seen symultaneuosly, one of the reason that our brain probably cognises in the way it does, I don't think I could handle that

All right, I found my way back.

Now, if time is relative to where a person is, why wouldn't it be relative to when a person is? If so, and we go on the pretext that the future is unwritten, then if I were to travel back to 1775 I could kill George W. because the future as relative to when I am isn't written yet.

It wouldn't matter that in our past nobody killed George, our entire past would slip into non-existance and the new past would emerge. You wouldn't notice a thing because the past that was, is no longer.

But then again, what if I go back and kill him, but then my time machine fades to nothingness because by killing George I altered what has to happen in the future for time travel to come about? Or would nothing happen to my machine because it is in the present (1775) with me?

It all reminds me of a book I read years ago about some guys in the future that go back in time to hunt dinosaurs. Because someone goes back in time ahead of them to mark which dinos to kill, they only kill ones that were going to die anyway. But one guy goes off the hover-path and walks around some and then goes back to the ship and back to the future. The trouble is, when they get to the future it isn't the future they left, then the guy who walked off the path finds a butterfly stuck to his boot.

Supposedly, if you killed a butterfly in the past, it would create enough of an impact on the future to change everything (the butterfly is eaten by a bird, the bird by something else, on up the line until something kills some distant ancestor and then you don't come into existance).

Like I said before, this stuff will make you crazy.

quote:

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Originally posted by MR.SMITH:
Ya, when it happens we will all remember it happeneing before it happened, but what about j0662's post, would it still exist, beings its sole existance is based on the fact that no one ever killed geoge w?

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If someone had killed G Washington, then no, my post would have never existed. But the fact that this post does exist proves it did never happen. Even if someone in the future wants to go back and kill him, he cant, because it never happend, another line wont splurt off, it never happend.

Supposing tho, i am wrong, when G Washington did get killed, the future changed. This new future would be absolute, we would never have had this conversation. Hence it would not be an alternate universe, it would be _the_ universe.

So my memeory would not even remember the question pertaining your post, i would simply know that goerge washington was killed. If that were true, there would still be physical eveidence (books, newspapers, etc) that he wasnt killed, or would they also never of existed. If that is the case, killing george Washington, might make the existance of the killer impossible, then he wouldnt of been able to kill george washington? But if he didnt kill washington he would be alive, and able to kill him. My brain hurts...

quote:

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Originally posted by Global Dominator:
It all reminds me of a book I read years ago about some guys in the future that go back in time to hunt dinosaurs. Because someone goes back in time ahead of them to mark which dinos to kill, they only kill ones that were going to die anyway. But one guy goes off the hover-path and walks around some and then goes back to the ship and back to the future. The trouble is, when they get to the future it isn't the future they left, then the guy who walked off the path finds a butterfly stuck to his boot.

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Dinosaur Samurai? Thats the only thing I've read that I can relate it to. The allosaurs have spiked clubs they wield with their vestigal arms and wear helmets.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
Dinosaur Samurai? Thats the only thing I've read that I can relate it to. The allosaurs have spiked clubs they wield with their vestigal arms and wear helmets.

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No, that isn't it. I don't really remember the name of the story, it may have been one of those short stories in collection form.

The gist of it is these 4 or 5 guys go back in time right after a political election to hunt dinosaurs. One freaks out when the T-Rex comes stompin' out of the forest and takes off when the shooting starts. He steps off the pathway (a definate no-no) but manages to get back to the timeship. When they get back to the future they all notice that the guy who had been elected before they left is now the loser and society has changed, that's when someone notices the butterfly on the sole of the guy's shoe, then someone shoots him.

Sort of a cool story, in a way.

Can they go back and stop him from wandering away?
By this definition I take it that they can,
But if this were to happen would they have meet themselves the first time, or wouldn't it have happened yet?
Same question I know but, I'm split pretty much down the middle
Is time completely linerar, or is it just one giant ball of string, all tied in nots, with other bits of fluff and very confusing?

I think time is like a room. You can move the things around, but to go back, you would have to put everything exactly as it was.

It's impossible to do though, because you would have to restock the elements the stars burned off, bring people back to life, rebuild buildings, every little fucking detail.

If time is like a room in which things change, then it fits with the theory that all time exists at the same time.

No, that can't be it.

If all time exists at the same time, and I am in 2002 but want to go to the year 0 so that I can hang out with Jesus and party a little, then I need some way of creating a dimensional portal.

Stepping through the portal should put me at the time I want to be. Past, present and future are all like strings laying side by side, all I am going to do is jump from one string to another.

There is no need to recreate anything, if something existed, it still does in its time frame (for example, Nixon is still president in 1972) so there is really nothing to do but figure out a way to poke a hole in the 4th dimension.

time travel = move faster than light
= disintergrate into atoms....
you need to disintegrate your self before
you could move/travel through time...
so time travel is impossible....

I know it's impossible, but I was just providing theories as to what would happen if we could get around a small detail such as not being possible .

quote:

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Originally posted by gun-nut:
time travel = move faster than light
= disintergrate into atoms....
you need to disintegrate your self before
you could move/travel through time...
so time travel is impossible....

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I guess we can put you in with the group that said: The world is flat - see Columbus, The speed of sound cannot be broken - see General Chuck Yeager, Man will never reach the moon - see Neil Armstrong, and all the other nay-sayers. When someone PROVES the speed of light cannot be penetrated, then I'll listen.

the light speed barrier has already been broken. Physicists in U.S. and Italy have shattered Einstein's theory of relativity. Physicist in U.S. has gotten light pulse to travel 300 times faster than speed of light- 186,000 miles per sec.
He described the light as passing through the test tube and stopping 60ft past it- basically the pulse existed at 2 places at once. This method can be used to send information into the future.

yes, with wormholes it is theoretically possible

If the the light was in two places at once doesn't that fuck up causality?
Or is the equipment just not sensitive enough to give an accurate reading at this speed?

could anyone moves faster than light currently ?
i say that people could travel faster than
sound is possible,
but the G force producedif you move as fast as light would rip you apart, unless you 'hyperspace' or by any means making your body strong enough that it would not be
smashed ?

maybe that's why there is 'aliens',
in order to travel through time, humans
need to alter the body structure, maybe
that's why future humans looks so alien...

I'm a firm supporter of hyperspace

but really...going back in time is completely out of the question, because you'd inevitably make an error and mess everything up...future travel is an option, if it were possible to go as fast as the speed of light. **Can anyone confirm that if you go the speed of light, you are pretty much in stasis?**

Im not sure if people can move that fast but, according to einstein,if you did and you travel around the universe for to years than when you came back the earth would be 2 million years older.

Just a thought,
CTR

I read all your posts and it has made an interesting morning coffee read for me. The science done with light traveling faster than the speed of light benchmark has caught my attention before. As I recall it was done with realitivly simple equipment and sound was actually broadcast on the light particles, like a optical fiber type broadcast through super cold ceramic wasn't it? Another experiment along the same lines relating to Quantum mechanics has been duplicated over and over using a high speed laser shooting a light beam through a prism that splits the beam in 2. The 2 beams are then directed through a wall with 2 holes in it and the photons captured and measured on the other side. By prediction using Quantum theroy it was figured that even if one side of the split beam were to be blocked from passing the wall there would still be eaxctly the same amount of photons measured on the blocked side of the the blocked hole. The experiment proved that there was. When the photons were measured on the laser side of the wall they showed the same amounts of light energy, not a gain in energy but photons existing in 2 places at one time. Even though one hole had been filled with lead. Not a flaw in measuring instruments or standards, just probabilities and predictions. Quantum Theory. Anything that can exists, does exist, has existed and will exist, all at the same time with million upon millions of copies of itself, each slightly different. One pure perfect copy of EVERYTHING. This is why light bends in OUR universe. The universe we occupy is NOT the perfect copy. In the one we occupy our planets orbit's are eliptical, we are not in the perfect ONE. The principle of observation changing outcome are also proven by the split beam experiment. That theroy goes something like this: If 2 boxes contain the same exact thing and you predict box number one holds a cat, the probability that box one holds a cat are greater than box 2 holding a cat. So if you predict time travel exists, the probabilities are greater now than before you predicted it.

Regarding wormholes; it has been predicted in that the only place to develop enough energy to produce a wormhole is the event horizon of a black hole, the area just before every particle is crushed to blackness. The mass needed to be crushed to release the energy needed to create the time foam to produce a wormhole the size of a needle would be about 1/2 the size of our sun. Not a very good trade but still possible if you were to shrink a human down to the size of a large molocule and somehow protect him in that environment. Anyway, thanks for the great read people. Sean

Gosh, I remember A time when I was 6 yrs old.
It was only about 5 or 6 at night, the sky started getting grey then the clouds began to turn green and purple. Then next thing you know it's all cleared up, clouds are few and white and the sky is blue. Everything is perfectly calm, no winds, no birds, no sounds except for the cars driving past not far away. Then within only about five minutes the sky quickly becomes blacks. Then the winds start picking up, coming at you from multiple directions. Getting stronger. Then all the sudden it's raining, no lighting, no thunder, but raining heavily. The wind just gushing the torents around. You hear sirens go off. You know this means a tornado has already touched down, close. You quickly crack all your windows in the house and head to the basement with a little radio some blankets and flashlights, and wait.

Well therenow, I just travelled in time. Not only that, I took you with me. You may not have realised that we did travel back in time. When I say, 'when I was six' we automaticly associate with being six. So you may not have gone into my past in the above experience but you went into your past by asssociating what you know about being six, also taking into consideration how long ago you thing that was for me. We may not have walked around and made new descisions. But it's real, because it's my past, and it really did happen, just like that.

whens the last time travelers have landed in your back yard, or anywhere for that matter? wouldnt time travelers from the future come back and teach the technology to us? time travel doesnt seem feasible because whatever reason you left for wouldnt be needed anymore thus negating your purpose for leaving and the paradox would consume you. but whats time anyways ? ive never given much thought to it .

the way i see it if time travel was possible, we would've already seen someone come back here from the future, since in our history no one has ever come from the future, or said they have, that means to me that we will never figure it out.

Like I said before, the technology has to exist in the present in order to see any effects from it. The universe doesn't "know" that time travel will be developed on day x and the guy is going to go back and tell us because it is unwritten.

Since the future is unwritten, the universe doesn't "see" when reverse time travel will be developed. An interesting fact is that now we can send particles of light *into the future*. Now only if something could withstand that speed, it would be practical. Maybe we can send messages from the past to the future with light?

Also, the speed of light is *not* the fastest anything can go. We just haven't seen anything that goes faster yet.

Edit: just read this post

quote:

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the light speed barrier has already been broken. Physicists in U.S. and Italy have shattered Einstein's theory of relativity. Physicist in U.S. has gotten light pulse to travel 300 times faster than speed of light- 186,000 miles per sec.
He described the light as passing through the test tube and stopping 60ft past it- basically the pulse existed at 2 places at once. This method can be used to send information into the future.

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I still don't think the future is written. The light will chill in the future till' the present comes in and intercepts it.

Think about it. If the future is written, then it must have somehow already been determined. I doubt the universe has a conscious mind to take in account all factors and every sub-atomic particle movement to know what everyone thinks, what will happen, and what the outsome will be.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 09-09-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Leesa:
the way i see it if time travel was possible, we would've already seen someone come back here from the future, since in our history no one has ever come from the future, or said they have, that means to me that we will never figure it out.

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What would you think if someone walked up to you on the street and said he was from the future? Exactly, call the twinkie wagon for a ride to Belleview Sanitarium. The thing about time travel is that everyone equates it with H.G. Wells' story, and they are always going to ask "where is the time machine?" What if it is more like the time travel in "The Terminator" movie? To travel through time would probably take a machine of building-size proportions, and to send that machine through time would take a machine twice that size.

Typical fucking two post totse.


What if it�s more like "we can send you, naked, and nothing else?" So poof! there you are in the mid-1600's, naked as a jay-bird, babbling about being from the future. No proof, no nothing, and the locals are looking at you real funny like, while a couple of guys sneak up behind you with a net.

Now imagine its 2002, but the same scenario. Somebody will still be sneaking up behind you with the net. You start spouting stories about what things will be like in the future, time travel, extended life spans, no disease, no poverty, no war. There will never be a mention of you in the history books, they don't write about loonies.

DOes it really matter if somebody changed time we wouldn't know because our memories would be changed. Yesterday may not have been as we rember it but that's just going into a whole new topic

time travel is possible and scientists have been able to do time travel. But only forward, and only on an atomic leval at this point. The ammount of time and energy it takes to send something into the future even a few seconds is huge. I watched an interview with sevral scientists talking about this very thing about a month ago on tech tv on the screensaver show.

Send messages to the future? Possible to recive messages from the future?

as far as i know the problem with paradoxes (killing your own grandfather) can be solved by quantum physics, i dont know much about quantum physics though so i might just be talking out of my ass

I have much to say about time travel, but no time to say it at the moment. The story previously referred to is A Sound of Thunder by Ray Bradbury.

if time is as we perceive it then we can all argue about time travel this and that.... but what if it isn't

the mind only emulates what it thinks of as "time" but what is time? what is a clock? is a clock time? is time a unit?

light doesn't even fucking exist... it's a virtual particle and it has no mass, it acts like a particle but it is not a real particle.. you can do all sorts of fun things with light like... making it appear out of no where for no causal reason...

what's the name of that experiment when you take a laser and you split the beam, one beam goes strait the other bounces back and forth through a mirrors hence one beam travels farther than the other, when the beams are then merged into one you observe the beam for a "phase shift" (remember laser is coherent) but! you will never see a phase shift... it appears that light traveled different distances in the same amount of "time"... see so is time a unit of measurement? is light a particle?

there is no time travel even though there is a linear time... light doesn't really "travel" through stuff it is "computed" through stuff cuz it's not a real particle... isn't quantum mechanics fun!

If it is like many scientists believe, and as has been posted elsewhere in this discussion, that all time and space exists simultaneously - everywhere and everywhen - then it is our perception that "invents" time as we know it, or believe us to know it. Our perceptional instruments does not allow us to percieve anything else than the present (or what we call the present). They have a limited range, so to speak.

If everywhere is everywhen, and the other way around, then time travel - or any kind of travel as we know it - is unnecessary.
"All" we have to do is change our perception. Some mystics claim to have done so, but if what they percieve is a bigger piece of the "all in one" time and space, is another question.

If everywhen is everywhere, it also includes what we call the future. We are already "surrounded" by it, as much as we are "surrounded" by what we call the past.

So, if we can manage to change our perception, we might be able to "look" at both past and future, but for rather obvious reasons we couldn�t interfere with either, as they already exist. They have "always" existed and will "always" exist, and are therefore unchangeable...

"Anyone who claims to have understood quantum physics, hasn�t understood it at all!"
Said by Niels Bohr, one of the original inventors of quantum physics, and he included himself in the statement!

Time is three eyes and eight elbows. FoxL

look scientists are dumb so are humans... and this is why it's best not to give a shit..

Time doesn't "exist" it's not a variable to be thought of at all it's silly that we have a word for it...

the future is not all around us like that... the future exists in potential... which exists in the either, which IS what light travels "through"... the reason why that floating mercury experiment thingie didn't work is for two reasons...

1. either doesn't have currents, cuz either has no "space" it simply does not "exist".

2. when a laser beam is split you would think 50% of the photons go one way and the other 50% go the other way.... this is NOT how it works... ;-)


[This message has been edited by PuppetHunter (edited 10-17-2002).]

X-cuse me, but if time doesn�t exist - something you seem very sure of, while I�m not - what we call the future must be "all around us" (in lack of a better term), as must the past.

And that does NOT contradict that we can choose. Because it�s ALL possible futures that "surrounds" us. We are constantly at an infinite cross-road, and for every step we take we get onto one of them, while the others get shut (for us). We can�t choose all of them, as light seems to do. But all the other futures and pasts, continue to exist, even if we can�t access them...

And nope, I don�t understand this either...

All that is, is metaphor! FoxLeonard

either was a theory a few decades ago... it was the closest left brain scientists ever got to whatever you could call truth..

the theory was that sound waves travel "through" air.. so maybe light waves travel through something else... they called it either. the experiment was to "measure" either currents as they thought this medium would work like any other physical medium.. but it's not a physical medium..

what you call the future is just your mind using it's linear concept of time to extend to the concept of "future"... relative to 5 minutes ago I am "in" the future..

see it's like you have space, physical medium, and you think that you witness time pass... but does space pass? You�re in the same spot you were a second ago, there is no past time and place, only past time. There is no future place that is all around us, there is only one place, the here.

people talk about time and space like they're close buddies.... but are they really so related?


[This message has been edited by PuppetHunter (edited 10-17-2002).]

I believe we are falling into semantic traps here. Something I was trying to avoid a little with all my quotation-marks and by adding the words "so called" etc, when I thought it was needed.

If you check my earlier posts, you�ll find that I say that there is no need for travelling at all, whether in space or time; i.e. we are exactly "here all the the time". Everywhere is everywhen, and everywhen is everywhere...

So I actually agree that the future doesn�t exist. Not if we use our ordinary, everyday definition. But what we call the future exists, and it has always done so...

And no, of course it doesn�t "surround us" in the same sense that we percieve things in our ordinary reality to do, but I can�t step outside of language to describe it. Not if I hope make myself understood at all (even if I don�t claim to understand this myself. I just enjoy stretching my mind with it...)

As far as it has been tried out and tested, Einstein�s theory of relativity seems correct; the closest to the truth we have at this moment. And as long as science can use it for their theories I�m rather satisified to stick with it as well.

The either (Ether?!) theory predates Einstein and was (kind of) proven wrong by him, but I know that some scientists have brought it up again; seen a need for it again, so to speak. If these theories actually connect to the question of time and time travel and time perception, I don�t really know.

Yep, it could be interesting to question if time and space actually are connected. I just wonder how to continue that discussion, as it puts us outside of almost all and every theory there is. We would end up in metaphysics and mysticism, rather than in science, even of the damned kind...

On the other hand it might be possible to say that time and space aren�t "connected", as they are one and the same, but that�s not what you�re hinting at, I guess?!

Meanwhile I�ll... FoxLeonard

I think that if time travel was made and we were able to go back in time, it would be like the Langoliers (that King movie)

Time travel..... well if we coulded time travel...go back in time in other words get younger cuz were getting back in time so when we 'push the button for time travel on the machine' everything goes back in past so the machine desapears ur getting younger ur thoughts and every1s else will be deleted till 'ur time that u put on the machine to take u back.' so that meens that ride didn't exist :S. This theory buged me since i was 13... what would we need at the 'time machine' is some how of a shield that keeps u from going in past but just travelling... i meen not erasing ur memory or/and changing ur body just sending u just the way you were just a couple of seconds before u pressed the button. And i think the shield would be impossible.

quote:

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Originally posted by j0662:
Can you remember any time traveler killing George W?

No?

Then no time traveler will ever kill George W.

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maybe someone has in another dimension dude, if you travel back in time, you have already experienced the events that you are going to change, so you cant change them, but you can change someone else's (a parralel you) future. Think of it like there are an infinite amount of parralel diminsions, each an infinitesimally small amount of time behind each other, and by travelling through time, you're not travelling into your past, but the present of another dimension, where that dimension's future will be affected, but not yours.

wow, i just read my last post and it made a lot of sense

i think some of you have to stop smoking weed

quote:

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Originally posted by Global Dominator:
It all reminds me of a book I read years ago about some guys in the future that go back in time to hunt dinosaurs. Because someone goes back in time ahead of them to mark which dinos to kill, they only kill ones that were going to die anyway. But one guy goes off the hover-path and walks around some and then goes back to the ship and back to the future. The trouble is, when they get to the future it isn't the future they left, then the guy who walked off the path finds a butterfly stuck to his boot.

Supposedly, if you killed a butterfly in the past, it would create enough of an impact on the future to change everything (the butterfly is eaten by a bird, the bird by something else, on up the line until something kills some distant ancestor and then you don't come into existance).

Like I said before, this stuff will make you crazy.

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its the sound of thunder dude, i just read it today in english

quote:

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Originally posted by SenorJesucristo:
wow, i just read my last post and it made a lot of sense

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You also made more sense out of my earlier posts on this subject. Thanks!

Time is three eyes and eight elbows!

FoxLeonard

no problem dude

quote:

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Originally posted by SenorJesucristo:
maybe someone has in another dimension dude, if you travel back in time, you have already experienced the events that you are going to change, so you cant change them, but you can change someone else's (a parralel you) future. Think of it like there are an infinite amount of parralel diminsions, each an infinitesimally small amount of time behind each other, and by travelling through time, you're not travelling into your past, but the present of another dimension, where that dimension's future will be affected, but not yours.

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But is there any reason, other than for your theory, to suggest that this is true?

ok in my time here i have seen many time travel topics posted, and this one is not any different then the other ones....
To time travel, first time must be defined, as Einstien says Time is the same in all places or something of the sort.... but time is only relitive in relation to something else...think about this....if there is a stationary, inatimate, solid object "hovering" in a round, one colored room, perfectly smooth and the like, how would anyone be able to define time in that situation? the way we define time is based on the relation between an action and a thing which we belive stays at a constant rate ie. the earths rotation round the sun, but without anything to compare action to time can not be defined...

So the only way to go back in "time" is to referse all the actions that time is defined by (not going into other dimentions and stuff like that for today...well mabey during my lunch hour)
But, if time is reversed, then the actions of the person and machine will be reversed as well. So, the machine or device that reverses time must also maintain a rate of action as to keep the person inside and itself from being "reversed" as well.

ok say all that is possible....and a person is brought back into a period where the actions are occuring exactially that of the past(i am excluding the obious existance of any mark or change that the arrival of the machine and person make when entering the "time" period) now, if any action is changed, the actions that exist after will also change.
then what?
then one must assume, that "you" in the current timeline of actions will do the same exact things that brought you into the past, thus assuring your existance in the past.
what now? you wanna go back to your own "time"??
now this same machine that reverses the actions must also "unreverse"(very made up word) the actions while still keeping itself and the passenger existant...(that aslo assuming that while traveling through time, your "spot" in the material plane is not occupied by any other object/thing until you reach the "present")
well i gtg for now....
i will start involving variables earlier in the process during my lunch..right now i got a class

Lates~
Joe~

quote:

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Originally posted by j0662:
But is there any reason, other than for your theory, to suggest that this is true?

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i believe the proof is simply that no one has travelled back in time to change something (yes, i realize that we wouldnt be able to tell). personally, like i said, i think you can change someone else's future with time travel(again, a parallel you), but you cannot change your personal actions, or other's actions that have already occured, because that time has already happened, but (fuck i lost my train of thought, goddamn frazier) if it were possible to change the future (your future) by changing the past (your past) then i believe a patriotic american citizen, 400 years from now, would travel back and stop 9/11, or maybe someone would have stopped hiroshima, nagasaki, someone might have even shot hitler in his crib. Again, to me, the fact that these events have not been changed suggest that either, time (as you know it) is unchangable, or time travel is never invented

[This message has been edited by SenorJesucristo (edited 10-23-2002).]

Time travel is possible if: *your human brain is receiving clear thought (e.g.instincts,memory,e.t.c)wich is direct inline with your gene code. *your gene code is dominant enough to be reproduced at least twice to create a circuit of thought regardless of time. *you can forget everything you know of your present life. *your senses can be shut off untill you register nothing of your present body. Having done all of this you will no longer be trapped in receiving this time. *******tip:Have a lot paint handy when you come back, you can't bring back photos.

before you can talk about time travel, plz define time for me. I define time as an action in relation to a constant ie. rate of moment, position in space. without being able to reverse actions, you can not reverse time....i am not talking about other dimentions that is way different. different "time" dimentions are a "present" in which the past actions of both dimentions did not act alike...ie lincoln shot in this dimention, may not have been in another.

Write your definition of time before you can see it can be reversed

lates
joe~

Can you read? I said nothing of the sort. Why would everything just decide to spin the other way? To your question of time, Time, just like any other word is relitive to the reader and can mean an infinite amount of things. I heard thats why lawyers get paid. If you can't see past the material world, I have no pity for blindness.

[This message has been edited by BEAR PASSING GO (edited 10-23-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by BEAR PASSING GO:
Time travel is possible if: *your human brain is receiving clear thought (e.g.instincts,memory,e.t.c)wich is direct inline with your gene code. *your gene code is dominant enough to be reproduced at least twice to create a circuit of thought regardless of time. *you can forget everything you know of your present life. *your senses can be shut off untill you register nothing of your present body. Having done all of this you will no longer be trapped in receiving this time. *******tip:Have a lot paint handy when you come back, you can't bring back photos.

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you did not support your statements with anything. Maybe if you added some more support or simply clarified it more, we could understand what you mean better

SenorJesucristo

if time is a relitive term, that means an infinate amount of things, then to reverse time, the device would have to have the ability to compensate for an infinate amount of variables....i got no more time to think about this today, i have calculus to do

Lates~
Joe~

I don't want to argue. If what is said doesn't make sense to yourself, then it doesn't matter. The material world is a product of thought. Thought exists within a non-existance(the material world) and is not held down by the imediate present much like you can remember hopefully what happened to yourself 10 minutes ago. Thought has always been here and always will. It can not be destroied simply because there is no material to destroy. The vessel you walk around in does not produce thought it merely reicieves and carrries out actions according to what it recieves. If your vessel registers absolutely nothing of the present life it simply recieves another simular vessels thought of another time.

[This message has been edited by BEAR PASSING GO (edited 10-25-2002).]

were not trying to argue here, simply trying to understand your opinion on the subject, and if i were you, id rather have someone understand then completely shut them out and then use a word like "carcus", spelled carcass, which means a dead body anyway, to try to impress them. Also, the material world is not a product of thought, it is a product of matter combined together.

the thoughts in your response go around in circles and make no sense. if you could just stop trying to be cool or whatever, you could really help us all by having an open mind.

SenorJesucristo

Is that more to your likiing?

[This message has been edited by BEAR PASSING GO (edited 10-25-2002).]

actually man, thank you, it makes i like 20 million times easier to understand. and im being completely serious on that.

By the way, you spelled destroyed wrong

Time is defined as change. Without matter, time does not exist because there is no change.

Agreed.

[This message has been edited by BEAR PASSING GO (edited 10-25-2002).]

If time travel really were possible, dont you think that we'd be flooded by tourists from the future? I mean c'mon, isnt that what every one would do, go back in time and then brag about how their from the future. We havent seen any of this so there's no way that time travel could ever be possible.

OK first of all tourists from the future wouldnt even THINK of braggin about where they came from because we are SOOOOOO primitive. think about it... we still use nuclear WEAPONS for fucks sake man.
Another thing is that even if we did find out a way to time travel, the machine doing it would have to have 2times as much energy for every one particle moved, and that particle would have to have 2 times the energy and then 4 times the energy and then 6, this is a simplification of E=MC2. unless we come up with an inexhaustable source of energy. one way to do this is kinda funny. you place a time machine on your power source and all of the equipment so it generates a constant temporal field around the stuff. but... and this is a big BUT, how do you get the energy in the first place. there would be alternative uses for this technology. say you want to prevent nuclear annihilaton from a bomb. you find a way to harness raw nuclear power without another medium like water currently used in power plants, and simply hook the time machine up to a nuke in flight and it sucks up the energy and renders the material useless, because it would accelerate the half life of uranium or plutonium and burn it out very quickly. i have NO idea how this would be accomplished, but i bet the government does

and another thing. anyone ever watch star trek? oyu get a mindfull of temporal mechanics in every 4 episodes because they base the storylines on factual evidence, but add WAY too much fiction and drama to make it practical. however, trek has some redeeming qualities.
hyperspace, or subspace, is what really powers the ships you see in the show. the massive warp engines (antimatter reactors hehe) give shitloads of energy to the nacells, the blue things on the side of the ship. the nacells contain gigantic coils of metal that release energy into subspace at a specific amount and create a specific X Y Z axis on the ship to form a subspace bubble. then, the nacells fluctuate the power in a specific way to move the ship, like a sidewinder moving across sand. subspace manipulation could be a method of time travel IF the way that you folded time was on a specific tangent AND you had a LOT of energy. this could make a *hole* to walk through and be in the specific time your tangent brought you to. calculating the right tangent to fold the subspace at would actually be harder than coming up with infinite energy, because it is a trial and error process. say one tangent leads to the 1800's, and another throws you back to the big bang, and they are only like 2 degrees off from each other.
this is the vastness of the universe.
another point.... we assume that we ARE alive. life, theoretically, should be imposible. there were sooo many chance happpenings during the creation of earth, like crystals giving dna its structure or amino acids coming together in the right way or lighting striking at JUST the right time could affect how or even if life happens. now look at us. APES running fake rocks with lightnign in them magically talking to one another. Humans hold themselves in such high regard it isnt even funny.

if infact what you say is true i say we as humans should stay away from time tavel because the smallest mishap could send us back to the beggining of creation and if what you said is theoretically true that we shouldnt really be alive due to all the possible mishaps during ceation 1 careless being can go back 2 far and make us lose life as we all know it.

It has been proven that by going very fast for long periods of time we can slow down time. So if e really equels mc2 then we can convert ourselfs to energy and speed ourself up at a speed so fast that wed be reversing time we could probably be able to freeze time as we know it. because time doesnt really exist its a rule made by humans and rules made by humans can be broken, for we are not perfect.
I can say its 2 in the morning now but is it really??? how do we no time exists??? We think it exists because events happen 1 after the other, each taking up a moment a moment we define as a second. But how do we no its a second?? cant it be a minute a second is 60 milosecends cant it be thirty???
rules are ment to be broken and i think we can move to the future. By putting our clocks ahead arent we theoreticaly moving a haed an hour into the future??? i consider that time travel. By moving our clocks back an hour we are moving to the past. but what is the past cant the past be the furture??? the rule sais it cant... but what is a rule??? theres a rule to rule which in reality means the word rule was created as law then we went back in time and editied it and added a rule to it??? in my eyes we time ttravel all the time without noticing it. But going back into passed events is not what iconsider time travel because travelling through time is easy me going to spain would be time travel i have to change the time from its origninal location???the rule sais time travel is impossible i just broke that rule because time as we no it is like 2:00am and when i go to spain its 6 when on my watch it sais 4. What most people want to do (kill hitler in his crib, stop septer 11)ITS NOT TIME TRAVEL ITS MANIPULATING PASSED ACTIONS!!! Once you do something its done now although u can go back in time to that certain time u cannot change the action it is done, finished. it will stick with humanity for the rest of our lifes!!! So understand the true meaning of time travel and yes it is possible... by simply going to a different country or moving really quickly.

hey did what i just say make sense??? holy shit it does to me wow thats pretty starnge...

PHYSICS SUCKS!!!! ITS ONE BIG GIANT THEORY!!!

BUT I DO BELEIVE IN TIME TRAVEL THOUGH

Ok first off im definetely not "god"(not admitting there is a god but using as a reference to an allknowing being) but i do believe i know something that will answer a question a few of u have been asking and i will (in my frame of perception) not use physics to do so.

bear in mind this only works if u disregard any theories on paralell dimensions/universes
OK no "time traveller"(defined as somebody who changes the actions of a period which has already occurred(aw shit i used physics period is just a point of reference between actions or something like that))has/will kil george washington.it is not an option for a time traveller. they cannot do this because if they did it would have already have happened. this is just a tadd confusing right? if they killed george washington before he became famous (say in infancy) then we would have no clue who he is.this is because he would not have become famous and yah u should understand. because he is now not famous no time traveller has any interest in killing him for any reason. What i am trying to say is that time travel may be possible(im not all knowing remember so it might not be just dont take my word for it or anyone elses)but changing the past is not. if u change the past it is no longer the past.(past being a period between the first action ever,if there was one, and the current action)this has probably been very confusing and no doubt u are just skimming this post like i did when i read the rest because there are simply too many to read thouroughly(umm me spell reel wheell)i hope u now realize what you are doing and reread it in hopes of understanding it.


now onto parallel universes/dimension thingies if they existed then time travel and changing of the past would be somewhat possible depending on your view of them. ok short example i go back in time and kill george washington. there will (as i stated before) be any change in your present(period between last previous action and next action to occur) but there may be a change in somebody elses present. this somebody else will be you in an alternate universe. in order for the you in your universe to observe and share in the change u will have to somehow got to the universein which i have sparked the change. i have no frigginclue how this would be done and i wont even go there. now here comes a tricky part; the other universe has not actually been changed in any way. (told u it was tricky(bet you wanna kick my ass rght about now))in the other universe(the one with the dead george) georges death was part of the natural course of actions. that universe has never known any other way beside one without george being the first prez and will never know any other way.


im tired of typing now if you want more from me post a question with something about smurfs in the title and then ask away.or just post your question under one of my many questions about smurfs in the forums.

if smurfs had balls theyd smurf the smurfing smurf outta smurffette


Peace
sx

damn i talk to much
and one other thing directed at vok. am i still part of why respected mebers of totse leave forever?



[This message has been edited by spyxero (edited 11-13-2002).]

The idea of time travel is flawed.
Time is measure of the amount of frames between each activity involving an item, molecule, atom or particle of energy.
When we percieve time we ignore the fact that activity is happening continously and flowing.
Everything in this world is always changing. With each rotation around a nucleus, activity occurs.
Only in a black hole(where perhaps activity does not exist) can time not exist.
Anyway, this is purely my own ideaology, with out bearing on Einstein's idea of time, or Hawking's definition of time.
Only if you could count each moment of activity can you then begin to work on travelling in time(whether past or future).
When you are in the past, or the future, then time changes. What was past, or future becomes present. Understanding that time is unbroken would surely help to avoid the confusion.

I have actually met my future self. "I" told myself that i have to stop hanging around Totse Boards or i would become a loser.

Seriously though, my brain is quite fried after reading all 4 pages of this post in 1 sitting!!

Is time travel similar to Teleportation? Could teleportation devices,(if they did exist)assist in time travel?

Maybe an intelligent creature that feels all the particuls exact posisiton in an exact monent, should be able to see the future. The future and the past would be present before his eyes.
(Ruldolf Clausius(1850)

Even in 1850 they knew, so this 4 pages post is making me tired to read.

*(sorry for my bad english)

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
I'm saying that you won;t see any effects from it till' someone actually goes back and does it. Noone has done it yet. We don't have the technology yet, and the future is unwritten, so nothing will result from it until the technology is in the present.

The future doesn't "know" that time travel will be invented and this guy will go back to this time and do this action, because the future is just the present at a later date. Nothing can see into the future, so you don't know what it's going to be, so if we actually get time travel next week and o back in time to tell ourselves, then we won't see any effects from it until next week rolls around and the technology is in the present.

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If the future is the present at a later date then one could only suppose that the past is the present at an earlier date. Therefore time is made up of a lot of 'presents' all being present at the same time.

Now if I went back five years ago and visited myself I would remember meeting an older version of myself five years ago. Although at that 'present' time travel didn't exist, I would have still seen the effects of it.

The same would be true if five years from now I came back to today, I should see an older version of myself today.

When I went five years into the past I saw a younger version of myself which in all reality was living in his 'present', thinking that the future hasn't happened yet, just as the 'me' from the future saw me living in my 'present' thinking the future hasn't happened yet. When the future 'me' returns to his 'present' he will laugh, knowing that his time is the real 'present', until a five year older version of himself suddenly appears before him.