I was just hanging around when this thought came to me. What if, there are aliens, but we have never been visited by them. But instead, it's us, at the same time, but in a different dimension, where we've evolved much faster, and are much smarter. Perhaps that's why none of it is really clear, because our other dimension selves know what kind of havoc their presence may bring.
Input, people? tell me what u think,.... or am i just being weird?

knowledge my friend, knowledge,

we already exist now in those other "dimensions",

and time travel i don't believe to be possible anymore, because it would break the continuity of your hyperdimensional shape.

Depending on who you believe, dreams may be visions of other dimensions. If this is true, then mankind has been traveling time and space throughout eternity!!!!

i think i feel some X-files music coming on.

hector, that's something i thought about while researching superstring theory,

maybe dreams are an the result of living out the possibilities of my wave function which does exist in higher dimensions, but is unknown to me because the self-consistancy of the s-matrix, which exists in even higher dimensions, makes 4 and only 4 dimensions define my perception of reality.

[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 10-27-2001).]

yeah that's what i thought

many people report time traveling during astral projection

Then what is lucid dreaming? Is it you taking control of you in another dimenison?

time travelling


i think that time traveling goes directly aganst the laws of thermodynamics does it not?


the law of conservation of energy and matter, if you send an object back through time then surely the time before would now have more mass than it did, and in essence it would be creation of matter as it would have to become separate from the matter that it originally was


sorry rambling

hehe time travel would be cool if u could control it to where ever u wanted to go in time>>> hehe

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don't get caught at anything and that is perfection

we are watching the past when we look at the stars in a way. some stars we see arent even there rite now, they may have disappeared hundres of thousands of years ago, but the light is just now reaching us. this means we are looking at the past. so if we were on a planet a hundrad million light years away wit a telescope that could see earth ( i know, not possible, but just say) then we would see maybe the creation of earth, the dinosaurs or whatever ( i dont nkow shit about what time this stuff happened, just in general, u get the idea) so it's like we would be in the past. not really time travel, but like time watching....

quote:

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Originally posted by Bisha:
I was just hanging around when this thought came to me. What if, there are aliens, but we have never been visited by them. But instead, it's us, at the same time, but in a different dimension, where we've evolved much faster, and are much smarter. Perhaps that's why none of it is really clear, because our other dimension selves know what kind of havoc their presence may bring.
Input, people? tell me what u think,.... or am i just being weird?

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But, if our 'other selves' had evolved differently they would no longer be us, they would be a different species (just like we evolved and are no longer apes) And therefore would be alien to us.

Differant species, same family. Apes are not alien to us even though we suppossedly evolved from them, so if there was an evolved 'alien' race out there that had evolved from us, technically it wouldn't be alien. It would however fall into the same family as us.

If we see apes as below us, yet like us, this is how the 'aliens' would see us, right? Probably treat us like we treat the apes. Lock us in fuckin cages or shoot us for our bits and bobs.

I agree with you on the idea of in possibly in a different universe/dimension we could be visited by people of another planet.

If I remember, according to the multiverse theory, a new universe is created whenever the idea of a choice has to be made. The choice can be anything imaginable: Eating eggs instead of cereal for breakfast, taking a different route to work, or even not posting this thread in the first place.

It can also take place for larger things, like the US not finishing the atomic bomb first, or Penicillin never being noticed. Perhaps there could be some choice or a breakthrough technology not happening in our dimension but in others (faster than light travel, communications that can help us contact the aliens). Even a farfetched idea can be the aliens were actually near our planet, but didn't land here (in this dimension at least).

One more thing about dimension travel, even if we could actually travel to these dimensions, it may be dangerous. Because I can remember in my physics class we were talking about antimatter: positrons, (positively charged electrons), negatively charged protons, and antineutrons. Other universes may be made of antimatter, and when antimatter and ordinary matter come together, they disappear and photons (energy) are released.

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There are three kinds of people in the world. People who can count, and people who can't.

[This message has been edited by tHeRoBoT49 (edited 12-04-2001).]

you realy belive another universe is created everytime a choice is made?
Just think how crazy that sounds, it would be more plausable to assume that there were/are already an infinate number of universes.

There is an infinite number of universes. I just believe that another one is added to them when ever a situation occurs that has multiple outcomes.

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There are three kinds of people in the world. People who can count, and people who can't.

quote:

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Originally posted by tHeRoBoT49:
There is an infinite number of universes. I just believe that another one is added to them when ever a situation occurs that has multiple outcomes.

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How can this happen. Infinity is infinity, NOT infinity + 1. jo662 is probably closer to the mark. Although i will admit that we cannot simple concepts of time, dimensions and the universe so we're probably all completely wrong.

no youre wrong, it doesnt go against the laws of thermodynamics. at least einsteinian time travel doesnt. in einsteinian time travel, during the actual travel, the object or person remains in the same universe, just that time travels slower for it. so the matter and energy that it contains is still there.

This doesnt have much to do with this but. . .

say you stop time (i do think this has a little to do with it because time seems to be much like a parabola, and there has to be a point at which when you're actually traveling that time stops). . . how do you breathe?

(lol, i know you guys are just talking about the theory, but i couldnt get that out of my head)

[This message has been edited by Bellicose (edited 12-05-2001).]

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There is an infinite number of universes. I just believe that another one is added to them when ever a situation occurs that has multiple outcomes.

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Infinite is infinite, you cant add anything to it because if you could it would not be infinite.

for my view on the creation of the universe, go here.

TheRobot is perfectly correct in his assertions of modern physics. Technically, infinite is ever expanding so the theory does indeed make mathematical sense.

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Common Sense Is What Tells You The Earth Is Flat

If you can add to infinity,
Then what is infinity + 1?

Answer: Infinity.

So if the first infinity is equal to the second infinity -1... then how can the first infinity be infinity?

Answer: It can't.

If infinity is ever increasing, then by what is it increasing?

Answer: It can't be.

And if it is increasing cant does that mean it started as a finite number?

Answer: No.

I think the common misconception here is that infinity is a number that can be added to or taken away from. Infinity is not a number. It is an idea. An idea that many people find very hard to comprehend, but still an idea, rather than a number.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bellicose:
This doesnt have much to do with this but. . .

say you stop time (i do think this has a little to do with it because time seems to be much like a parabola, and there has to be a point at which when you're actually traveling that time stops). . . how do you breathe?

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Answer: You dont need to.

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Originally posted by j0662:

I think the common misconception here is that infinity is a number that can be added to or taken away from. Infinity is not a number. It is an idea. An idea that many people find very hard to comprehend, but still an idea, rather than a number.

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Which means that if you can't add or subtract from infinite universes, then every choice, branch and junction is already existing? Which means that the universes are pre-determined. Kind of like a series of 1's and 0's. The choice you make is either intercepted as either yes or no and you continue living in the universe you already existed in.

*Takes a breath*

But if you make choice two then you exist is an alternative universe. You don't jump to another one, and because infinite is NOT infinity + 1 then that alternative universe must already exist, right? Which means that our paths are already pre-determined. We are living in a huge computer, where we are the microscopic transistors that either go one way or another. We are Gods supercomputer.

to put it in easy terms

since infinity is constantly growing, something is constantly being added to keep it growing

if I were to start counting
1, 2, 3, 4. . .
that would be infinity if I never stopped because it would be growing forever

I think what you said may be a better way to describe the multiverse theory I posted about earlier here Mantis. It doesn't really contradict the idea of infinity, and it states that multiple universes do exist for every different choice or outcome for a situation. So in scientific terms, that would mean theoretically, since the beginning of time, all these universes were created at the same time...

I have another thing to say here, about our universe. I know I'm taking a shot at this in the dark, but how about this? How are the outcomes in our universe determined? I believe it may have to do with a probability of some kind. The outcome of a situation in our universe could be the one with the greatest chance of happening.

It could be something similar to the wave functions of the Strodinger(SP?) Equation, which gives probabilities for where an electron could be in an atom. Now, I'm not saying that it is directly related to this, but I mentioned it to make a comparison.

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There are three kinds of people in the world. People who can count, and people who can't.

i have 2 theories (at the moment) its the one you just stated about every decision creating a new universe and what j0 and i discussed some time back about a loop

those are the only ones that make sense to me because theyre the infinities i can comprehend (a circle and a parabola)

I don't really have any theories of my own, i just like to try and understand other peoples and then say what i think i would interperet this as.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bellicose:
to put it in easy terms

since infinity is constantly growing, something is constantly being added to keep it growing

if I were to start counting
1, 2, 3, 4. . .
that would be infinity if I never stopped because it would be growing forever

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But the thing is, infinity is not a number, if you can write down its size, then it cant be infinity, because u can always add to it.

If you carried on counting for ever, then you would count for infinity, but the number you were on at any one time would not be infinity, because infinity can never be defined as a number.

if the # is constantly changing then technically there still isnt a constant #, just a growth

thats when that crazy sideways 8 comes into hand

There may not be a constant number, but at any one time, there is a number.

Also, if it is constantly increasing, by what is it increasing?

RANDOM INTERJECTION:
(may or may not pertain to the topic)

What if there is nothing else out there? What if time travel, other dimensions, aliens, and whatnot are all just non-existant?

What if the speed of light is impassible, and unattainable (which is true by conventional methods).
(c = MAX?)

On the other hand, what about that splitting theory of dimensions? That every decision spawns a new dimension (in a sense).

Not that that matters.

What if the universe runs out of RAM?

Don't forget, time is a dimension that is, where we exist, locked into a constant forward rate of change.

What if time is 3-dimensional or at least 2-dimensional.

I hope you are all thoroughly depressed at this point, and confuzzled as well.

I'm not understanding what you're saying j0?

if a number is always growing then the number isn't infinity, but the growth is, even though there is a solid number, its not constant so once you acknowledge that number its already gone, and that number just becomes part of the whole

quote:

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if a number is always growing then the number isn't infinity,

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Infinity is not a number, because at any one moment, a number never goes on for ever.

quote:

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but the growth is,

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if it grows for ever it will grow for infinity (ie, for ever)

quote:

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even though there is a solid number, its not constant so once you acknowledge that number its already gone,

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But the thing is, at any one moment (pretend you can freeze time to look at that moment) the number, is a number, and so cannot be infinity. Infinity can not be defined as a number.

quote:

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and that number just becomes part of the whole

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once again, infinity cannot be a number because a number is not infinity.


[This message has been edited by j0662 (edited 12-08-2001).]

i hate it when people break down what i say

there are different ways for inifinity to exist,

take a circle, the circle goes around forever, but can you not infact point at any certain point in that circle and give it a name?

Each point in the circle is not infinity, but you can trace the circle for infinity.

Whats your point?

only thats its the same thing, you can pick a point on something, that is not infinity, but if the objects growing for infinity thats just another point on it, that doesnt diclaim that it is inifinity, even if you go by your way of thinking where there is no end no beginning, you can still pick a point in it

You can pick a point, but you can pick a limit. on the circle you cant pick where it ends, but if you freeze this ever increasing number, then that number will be its limit at that point in time. Theres the difference.
You still havent answered me..

by how much is infinity increasing?

and

If it is continuosly increasing, does that mean that it started at zero?

I get what you are saying, but what do you call an infinite growth if its not infinity? (JW)

the circle was a good way for me to prove myself wrong I guess because if you freeze a circle in time its still infinite, but if you freeze something growing in time it stays at that same state

I just cant comprehend an infinite universe, maybe its a circle too, though I cant picture it in my head

[This message has been edited by Bellicose (edited 12-09-2001).]

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I get what you are saying, but what do you call an infinite growth if its not infinity?

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The growth will continue for infinity but the difference being that a growth is not an object, it�s a change.

quote:

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I just cant comprehend an infinite universe, maybe its a circle too, though I cant picture it in my head

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Many people don�t actually believe that the universe is infinite; they believe the universe is finite.

This theory states that because space-time is very curved you could travel in one direction, and if you travelled in that direction for long enough, you would come back to the place where u originally were.

This is very hard to visualise, because it requires nothingness to bend. A good way I have found to think about it, is if we take away one dimension, so we have a 2D space. Imagine this space to be curved into a sphere, much like the surface of a globe. You can travel in one direction and you will end up where u started. If you apply this to a 3D space, although it is somewhat hard to visualise, you get my idea of a finite space.

Take a class in Calculus joey. Infinite is ever expanding (always having something added to it to cause it's growth), and it can expand at different rates. The universe must be expanding at an exponential rate, because thousands of minute decisions are mad every minute. Do I go back and fix my typo? Do I scratch my balls? Do I ignore both of those and get something to eat? Do I post this? Do I visit www.theonion.com? Every second billions of people are deciding on billions of things. Just look at the amazing growth rates. Simplicity at it's finest.

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Common Sense Is What Tells You The Earth Is Flat

quote:

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The universe must be expanding at an exponential rate, because thousands of minute decisions are mad every minute.

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What does the rate of decisions have to do with infinity?

quote:

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Every second billions of people are deciding on billions of things. Just look at the amazing growth rates. Simplicity at it's finest.

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Huge amounts of choices = simplicity?

You lost me.

that's not what I cant comprehend, I cant comprehend the bend its self

but smileys are much happier than thumb downs

The simplicity was an ironic sarcasm...

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Common Sense Is What Tells You The Earth Is Flat

Sorry, im not the quickest of people at the best of times. You can still answer the other question tho...

Infinit[y] may not be a number but it can represent a number. And as such you can have two infinities, one larger than the other.

For example:

Take a given length. Now, in steps, half the length. That is, step 1) half the original length. Step 2) half the remaining length, etc. You have an infinite amount of steps.
Now, take a length that is twice the original length and do the same thing. You then have the same infinite amount of steps as the origiinal, plus one more.

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"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking until you do succeed"

- Curly Howard

[This message has been edited by Metaphysicist (edited 01-24-2002).]

A line extending to infinity is not actually a line. It is infinity itself. Infinity = Everything. It becomes everything due to it's
extending to infinity, since infinity is everything(you, me, the universe, the dots on this page, everything). What is referred
to as a line extending to infinity is
actually a line continuously growing through
linear time.
It has a begining, when it was shorter than
before and does not expand through the past.

I know of no other way to describe infinity
than to say it is everything. Everything in
the universe, all that ever was, will be,
and more. Nor do I pretend to understand
infinity. It is an unknowable, however, by
it's very definition of everything, it must
also be knowable. (infinity is, of course,
a paradox. It's everything else too.)

Humans are just segments within infinity and
cannot know infinity itself without becoming
infinity. Of course, one can't BECOME
infinity, since becoming suggest not being
first and infinity is everything. You CAN
BECOME infinity. Starting to get the picture?

So, it would be proper for a human never to
use the word infinity since a human can never
use it correctly.

A line CAN extend to infinity.
A line CANNOT extend to infinity.
Both are correct.
Infinity is Everything.

A line, by definition, is infinite.

A line by definition is not infinite. Where did you get that?

A line [actually, line has a multitude of definitions, but we'll all assume that we are talking only about the mathmatical line, here ] by definition is:

"A one-dimensional element: a straight geometric element that has length but not width or thickness and whose identity is determined by two points"