I personally want to see peace on our planet and therefore am opposed to war( although peace is not the absence of war); and i see the military as a mechanism for war ( although i understand that is not all it is).

How do you justify working in the military as being ethical when you may be and often are required to take the life of others; how can you justify ending the life of another; what give you that entitlement?

Killing someone isn't unethical to me. I'm the first person to go out of my way to help those who help others; I have a diametric stance when it comes to those who hurt others.

For example, if I had the money, I'd give away clothes and build houses in Afghanistan after I saw what happened there as a result of the Russian invasion and the Taliban oppression. Likewise, I'd hunt down and slaughter every single "jihadist" in the country.

In a much more conventional sense, I also have no qualms annihilating any country that militaristically threatens my way of life, even if by economic means. The U.S. has a major economic trade partner in Taiwan. If China were to ever attempt to reclaim that (or, in a more personal sense, if they were to attack Japan), I'd go AWOL from my current duty station if it meant I'd get to fight.

Also, I never said that killing is any sort of entitlement. I'm not even trying to justify it for anyone else. I've already justified it for myself and that's all I really care about. It's very much a selfish thing and I'm superbly unconcerned by that fact.

Everyone joins for a different reason. Some join for the education benefits, some join to start a new clean life, some join for a stable job and great benefits, some to be able to support themselves and their family, and some join because they truly want to defend their nation. This goes for all countries with volunteer militaries all over the world.

Sure, they all join for different reasons, but in the end, the military is here not just as tools for the nation's defense, but also to aid the country of many different other things. If a nation decides to attack the country, the citizens of that country will be looking to the military to defend the nation, and ultimately, to retaliate. Along with that, the military are prepared to deter drug and human trafficking, aid in natural disasters, aid in the support of other countries, and to provide research and development of many of today's modern civilian technologies, not to mention providing hundreds of jobs to civilians who decide to work on military bases. There's also the donating to literally hundreds of different worldwide charities. My air base alone has raised hundreds of thousands to the CFC, the Combined Federal Campaign, who use the money to go straight to other charities. Not through fundraisers or anything like that, but straight out of our pockets. In fact, I'm donating $1200 out of pocket to the national cancer institute.

And that is a huge reason why people sign up.

Selfish indeed.

Everyone joins for a different reason. Some join for the education benefits, some join to start a new clean life, some join for a stable job and great benefits, some to be able to support themselves and their family, and some join because they truly want to defend their nation. This goes for all countries with volunteer militaries all over the world.

Sure, they all join for different reasons, but in the end, the military is here not just as tools for the nation's defense, but also to aid the country of many different other things. If a nation decides to attack the country, the citizens of that country will be looking to the military to defend the nation, and ultimately, to retaliate. Along with that, the military are prepared to deter drug and human trafficking, aid in natural disasters, aid in the support of other countries, and to provide research and development of many of today's modern civilian technologies, not to mention providing hundreds of jobs to civilians who decide to work on military bases. There's also the donating to literally hundreds of different worldwide charities. My air base alone has raised hundreds of thousands to the CFC, the Combined Federal Campaign, who use the money to go straight to other charities. Not through fundraisers or anything like that, but straight out of our pockets. In fact, I'm donating $1200 out of pocket to the national cancer institute.

And that is a huge reason why people sign up.

It doesn't surprise me that members of the military are nationalistic- it would be hard to if you wernt. I personally believe before we apply all these labels associated with our culture to each other and focus on our differences the fundamental impericle fact is that we are all human and all experiencing life, but going about it in our different ways should be recognised; and despite these ways having different negative or positive value placement on them that it is understood the ultimate intention these actions is something virtuous; maybe not every single action - but certainly the path we choose. Is that not something you have come to understand in your service? I would imagine not as a soldier (i guess) would generally see the worst of humanity.

I do reckon though that all people universally want peace on earth; i just dont see how the military is helping to achieve that if not being problematic and intervening in that goal.

Oh believe me, if there were a day where there was no NEED for the military, that'd be the day the whole world took up their wine glasses. However, it's human nature to want to hate eachother for some reason or another on political scales, so we have militaries.

On the day where every country on the planet comes together and declares peace and there truly is no need for any military on any nation on Earth, I'd happily turn in my uniform. I'd be laid off, really, but I'd be happy about it. :] I mean, hey, there's friggin world peace, what's not to be happy about?

Unfortunately, that's not the case. You'll never know when another country's leader wakes up one day and decides to hate our country's leader and sends out their military forces. For that we're here.

I think you're putting too much focus on something that really needs redirection. The military follows the government and the leader's direction, not make world-changing decisions. The military doesnt decide who they fight next. That's politics.

It's really the world leaders that ultimately make the decision if the military fights or not. It's the world leaders that have the power to decide weither the planet wants world peace or not.

And the militaries of every country? It's really not up to them. :]

The U.S. has a major economic trade partner in Taiwan. If China were to ever attempt to reclaim that (or, in a more personal sense, if they were to attack Japan), I'd go AWOL from my current duty station if it meant I'd get to fight.

But what if Japan rearms itself and attacked China ? What would you do ?

But what if Japan rearms itself and attacked China ? What would you do ?

What if Japan armed itself and attacked the U.S. what would you do? Would you answer the call? Would you arm yourself? Would you have the balls to defend your family? Your country? Your way of life?

What if Japan armed itself and attacked the U.S. what would you do? Would you answer the call? Would you arm yourself? Would you have the balls to defend your family? Your country? Your way of life?

why is everyone attacking each other? that is the right question

What if Japan armed itself and attacked the U.S. what would you do? Would you answer the call? Would you arm yourself? Would you have the balls to defend your family? Your country? Your way of life?

I would made a tearful statement about my sufferings and my plight from a refugee camp either in Canada or in Swiss-land live on CNN....

yea....I'm sissy :(

why is everyone attacking each other? that is the right question
It's a discussion from what I saw? :p

stay bad
~stormy

I personally want to see peace on our planet and therefore am opposed to war( although peace is not the absence of war); and i see the military as a mechanism for war ( although i understand that is not all it is).

Violence, and warfare, are not in and of themselves evil. It's all about why and where they are being used that puts them within a moral context. A woman kneeing a rapist in the groin to prevent herself from being raped and murdered is not something a rational human would ever condemn. She committed an act of violence to prevent grievous and unjustified harm to herself. However, take a woman kneeing a man in the groin for the purpose of incapacitating him so she could steal his car and run over some toddlers. Once again, every act of violence has to be looked at within context.

The military is just a tool of it's government. It can be used for good or evil. For instance, if the western nations truly cared about the genocide in Darfur they would employ perhaps the only means we currently have to stop it. That is, our military power. Would you say that helping innocents defend themselves from vicious and genocidal invaders would be a bad thing? We, that is, the west, are in a privileged position within the global power structure. Normally in history those in our position are content to exploit the rest of the world for as long as they can. However, we have the power to break that disgraceful historical trend by actually helping those weaker than us. Unless you genuinely believe every dictator on this planet can be persuaded with soft power to peacefully relinquish their throne, then we will have to use warfare to help those that can't help themselves.

Most governments on the planet today are not "of the people". Most of the population on this planet doesn't enjoy the rights we so casually forget we have. Given this, most nation's governments are not even truly governments. They are merely a mafia on large scale, thug like and unaccountable to their subjects. I fail to see how it is anything less than our duty to destroy these heartless criminals when we see them.

Violence, and warfare, are not in and of themselves evil. It's all about why and where they are being used that puts them within a moral context. A woman kneeing a rapist in the groin to prevent herself from being raped and murdered is not something a rational human would ever condemn. She committed an act of violence to prevent grievous and unjustified harm to herself. However, take a woman kneeing a man in the groin for the purpose of incapacitating him so she could steal his car and run over some toddlers. Once again, every act of violence has to be looked at within context.

The military is just a tool of it's government. It can be used for good or evil. For instance, if the western nations truly cared about the genocide in Darfur they would employ perhaps the only means we currently have to stop it. That is, our military power. Would you say that helping innocents defend themselves from vicious and genocidal invaders would be a bad thing? We, that is, the west, are in a privileged position within the global power structure. Normally in history those in our position are content to exploit the rest of the world for as long as they can. However, we have the power to break that disgraceful historical trend by actually helping those weaker than us. Unless you genuinely believe every dictator on this planet can be persuaded with soft power to peacefully relinquish their throne, then we will have to use warfare to help those that can't help themselves.

Most governments on the planet today are not "of the people". Most of the population on this planet doesn't enjoy the rights we so casually forget we have. Given this, most nation's governments are not even truly governments. They are merely a mafia on large scale, thug like and unaccountable to their subjects. I fail to see how it is anything less than our duty to destroy these heartless criminals when we see them.

Well thank you for clearing that up but jsut to let you know im well aware of that.

Peace will never be accomplished through the military.

Defending yourself against rapists might prevent you from being raped, but it doesnt get rid of the ontology and reality in any persons consciousness that allows them to rape other people.

My proposition is that world peace is accomplished through an aggregate of inner peace.

That is everyone understands there own ontology behind their reality and through that try to understand other peoples ontology and reality.

How do you justify working in the military as being ethical when you may be and often are required to take the life of others; how can you justify ending the life of another; what give you that entitlement?

I get paid.

I get paid.

if i gave you a wage double that which you receive on an hourly basis, and contracted you to kill a person close to you be it your wife, husband, girlfreind, boyfreind, sister, mother, father etc.

what would you then reply?

i get paid why not eh?

Defending yourself against rapists might prevent you from being raped, but it doesnt get rid of the ontology and reality in any persons consciousness that allows them to rape other people.

I can see this asshat telling that to the next child molester railing him in the pooper. Then having a change of heart when said child molester stuffs him into a wood chipper. Too late.

What you don't realize is

sometimes the simplest answer is the best answer. Sometimes the ends do justify the means. It's rare when it happens, and certainly isn't pretty, but this is, after all, reality.

What I suggest, is go observe nature. Go observe animals and their hierarchy. Then come back when you realize how counter-productive your attitude is to human progress.

I can see this asshat telling that to the next child molester railing him in the pooper. Then having a change of heart when said child molester stuffs him into a wood chipper. Too late.

What you don't realize is

sometimes the simplest answer is the best answer. Sometimes the ends do justify the means. It's rare when it happens, and certainly isn't pretty, but this is, after all, reality.

What I suggest, is go observe nature. Go observe animals and their hierarchy. Then come back when you realize how counter-productive your attitude is to human progress.

Human progress is counter productive in my opinion, the only way for humans to be at peace is to realize God and all which that entails.

You brought it up not me.

Counter productive to what? Don't cop out by spouting non-sensical malarky.

if i gave you a wage double that which you receive on an hourly basis, and contracted you to kill a person close to you be it your wife, husband, girlfreind, boyfreind, sister, mother, father etc.

what would you then reply?

i get paid why not eh?


I think you know it'd be a different reply.

There is more to things than getting paid, like agreeing with the policies that your army is trying to enforce or whatever your commander's intent is at the time. Most of that had been said already.

Counter productive to what?

Counter productive to inner peace.

If you want to understand my definition then read this topic

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2179846

When i said human "progress" is always counter productive i meant it as in "is always" rather than "is".

I dont mean productive in terms of a worker in a factory, i mean a person who uses their potential and realizes their purpose; spiritual productivity.

Your idea of progress is counter productive to actual progress.

See, your argument began first by using your own fixed view of morals and ethics as a formula for your sense of "justification".

Then you took a sharp right turn at...religion.

If you want to keep treading the path of arguing the command of religion against the command of government-run troops, then this thread is going to have to move to MGCBTSOOYG.

Killing sandniggers is no worse than killing the cow to put beef on your plate.

so....these captured cows...did you made them perform cattle pyramids first ??

so....these captured cows...did you made them perform cattle pyramids first ??

Well, maybe not pyramids per se, but other certain geometrical shapes.

Well, maybe not pyramids per se, but other certain geometrical shapes.

i would like to see an octagon.....

Alot of my "own fixed view of morals and ethics" are derived from spirituality.

You do understand there is a difference between religion and spirituality, religious people do what their told when they're told; i do not just as i do not follow any religious movement.

Many people in government, voters and military personal are religious and are their because of their religion and make decisions derived form their religion; and yet religious motivation is not something to be discussed?

hmmmph.

Actual process according to your ontology and reality.

To not identify that specifically implies that your view of progress is the "actual progress".

I agree spiritual progress is not always productive towards material progress; that is not necessarily a negative thing.

A proper evaluation weigh's pro's and cons.

Anyway its quite ironic you mention progress because the military is the fundamental tool the authorities have for maintaining their power and the status quo.

Actual process according to your ontology and reality.

Nope, just plain ol' progress.

To not identify that specifically implies that your view of progress is the "actual progress".

I consider progress generally to be prosperity for all. I think many would agree.

I agree spiritual progress is not always productive towards material progress; that is not necessarily a negative thing.

That may work for the world's Ghandis and Mother Teresas, but not really many else.


Anyway its quite ironic you mention progress because the military is the fundamental tool the authorities have for maintaining their power and the status quo.

Well, point taken.

Nope, just plain ol' progress.



I consider progress generally to be prosperity for all. I think many would agree.



Everyone has the capability to be spiritual, whether its realized or not.

Yes prosperity is an ideal everyone would want, but how to achieve this?

When we start defining prosperity there may be some small differences, but when we are actually trying to achieve prosperity or "progress" it wont work and we will all disagree unless it is something that people do internally; to put your interpretation of progress onto others will not result in progress; humans overriding their innate unvirtuos tendencies.

Note: Prosperity is a key phrase in religion/spirituality because our world is innately unprosperous

i want to be a government sanctioned killed :)

to put your interpretation of progress onto others will not result in progress

To put your interpretation of progress onto others will not result in progress.

Note: Prosperity is a key phrase in religion/spirituality because our world is innately unprosperous

Yes, the world is cold, hostile, and inhospitable, which is why we need the force of violence to protect ourselves.

To put your interpretation of progress onto others will not result in progress.

No it wont; but if everyone or at least some people intrinsically engage themselves in the science of the soul then spiritual progress is being made therefore the unprosperius nature of our existance is being undermined; because people are shifting from material/mental consciousness to spiritual consciousness and despite the semantics behind God's existence a person with inner peace is undoubtedly a more peaceful person than someone without inner-peace; that is what defines inner peace.

No it wont; but if everyone or at least some people intrinsically engage themselves in the science of the soul then spiritual progress is being made therefore the unprosperius nature of our existance is being undermined;

Have you ever noticed that these people weigh 105 lbs, have no fat or muscle, and eat things that normal people would find repulsive?

because people are shifting from material/mental consciousness to spiritual consciousness and despite the semantics behind God's existence a person with inner peace is undoubtedly a more peaceful person than someone without inner-peace; that is what defines inner peace.

Perhaps part of inner peace is a sense of safety and security? But how can that be achieved?

Have you ever noticed that these people weigh 105 lbs, have no fat or muscle, and eat things that normal people would find repulsive?

Perhaps part of inner peace is a sense of safety and security? But how can that be achieved?

Haha well ill take that first thing as a joke, but if it was serious i will gladly go into it.

How can inner-peace be achieved?

Since you are asking the question, the question really is "How can i achieve inner-peace?"

Your consciousness is unique to you, only you know your own consciousness because only you can be conscious of your own consciousness.

I know, its alot of consciousness but that is my justification for inner-peace being an individual thing.

This is transpires into ontology- the values we place on the list of all possibilities and experiences. That is something only you can decide.

Hell man, i still dont know a fraction of the answers- but at least im asking questions.

I get paid.

This.

I also like Trueborn Vorporals response, however you asked for my justification, so pardon me if my justification sounds a lot like some of the other answers.

I have no qualms killing anyone who threatens my country through military means. I personally have no qualms eliminating any violent US rebel groups on US soil. Fact of the matter is, you threaten my country, I have no qualms killing you.

Now, lets look at my moral background shall we? I occasionally will volunteer and help the local community, even though I feel no emotional attachment to it. I believe that real Patriotism is protecting your country, being proud of it, and helping develop it. Yes, I give money to the poor. Yes, I have pulled my car safely across a few lanes of traffic to make sure an old man who fell off his bicycle was okay.

I understand why the enemy fights the way he does. Had the circumstances been different, and I was in his situation, yes, I'd be doing the same thing. Unfortunately, I'm American, doing what I think is best for my country. He is an Afghan, he is doing what he thinks is best. Same with the Iraqis. We all have causes, unfortunately one of us has to back down, or rethink what we think is best.

Personally, with all the evils both countries face, I think we're by far the lesser of all evils.

Now, if you ask me what my opinion of the current and upcoming administration, I'll tell you I don't agree with neither. I lost faith in our current government, I don't exactly like our oncoming one. I liked McCain and his policies. But I will probably end up reenlisting. Why? Its called sense of duty. I believe in the United States of America, and while I believe our government is in a weaker state, I know one day we will get a stronger, more powerful leader. Perhaps Obama is that leader, I dont know.

TL/DR version:
--No qualms killing anyone who militaristically my country, be they foreign or US
--I understand where the enemy is coming from and cant blame them
--I justify it by faith in the country, and in the United States Government, even if sometimes I don't agree with it.

Because I see nothing wrong with making less assholes in this world, plus as someone said I like to get paid, especially if its getting paid to shoot guns and play army man but for real. And as to the question about whether or not I would shoot someone close, family and other loved ones(close friends ect) no I would not but only because I love them, if it was someone I knew really well but didn't actually love, then hell yea if the price is right and I don't have to go to jail. I personally see nothing wrong with killing people, most people are peices of shit(me included), most people really piss me off(yea ill admit most time stupid shit), and the world is very over populated, and really we are all just Animals(complex ones at that but still). So why the fuck not especially if they hate America and Americans? Am I an asshole? Yes! Would my views on whether killing anyone change if I actually killed someone in real life? Could be... doubt it but could be.

Do I wish for peace on earth? No not really its to impossible its in human nature to want to fight, plus the world would be pretty boring and id be out of a job. The only way I would support world peace is if you included violent crimes and stuff being gone in that whole world peace thing not just no wars.

Also Violence does solve lots of problems. That rapist that got kicked in the groin by the girl, if he had been shot dead instead of just a kick in the groin that would solve the whole rape issue because the dead can't rape people. Also take a bully at school, say he picks on the wrong kid and that kid kicks the bully in the nuts and busts his fucking nose you think that bullys going to pick on that kid again? Probably not.

LAST pro violence thing and then ill shut up. Look at Chuck Norris, he once took a math quiz and put "VIOLENCE" after each question and got an A+ why? Because Chuck Norris Solves all his problems with violence haha

why is everyone attacking each other? that is the right question

The self destructive nature of the human condition.

I get paid.

*claps* good answer, good answer.

______________________________

On a side note, Successful troll is successful.

Because they pay for college, and I get to see lots of cool places, and do lots of cool things. Fuck ethics and the like, I just wanna have fun.

Well the fact they are trying to kill you helps but you have some sort of scewed outlook huh? Do alot of humanitarian aid you never heard of. Look up operation new horizons i was in ONH peru. you might see a picture or two in service papers