can a .22 be used as a sniper rifle becuase they are accurate and use very cheap ammo?

yes, you can actually get sniper bullets, i think there called subsonic or something, by remington

quote:Originally posted by CamoCougar:

yes, you can actually get sniper bullets, i think there called subsonic or something, by remington

I think your confusing Sniper with Assassin, mob assassins like to use 22 mags and shoot between the eyes.

Any gun can be used for Sniping, remember the DC sniper 6 months ago used a 223 rem.

The military & law enforcement community I believe finds a 22 or 223 not up to parr.

.22? um.... ok let get started here.

There are two kinds of .22's discussed so far.

.22's as in rimfire .22's they are about powerful enough to shoot small animals and target practice they are almost always 100% lead somtimes more expensive ones with a copper/brass jacket. The fastsest a rimfire .22 gets is around 1200 fps muzzle velocity, usually couple with a 30 grain load some get up to 38-40 grains and 1,000 fps now anyone who took a physics class and shoots or just shoots will tell you this is a very low energy bullet like I said fine for small animals and target shooting, meanwhile we have...

.223's these are what the AR-15's/ M16's shoot its a bullet usually around 55 grains going around 2,500 fps if I'm not mistaken. all bullets are held to tight tolerences and inside a copper jacket carefully seated into a long bottle-shaped centerfire case. the combination of more weight and doubled speed over a .22 rimfire makes this bullet a reasonably lethal combination for anything under 100 pounds and dangerous combination for anything under 250 pounds.

needless to say there are tons of bullets in between the .22 and the .223 but, I'll keep this simple anything below a .223 or similar is not going to be enough to really do anything at what people could call "sniper distance" meaning a .22 could not be a sniper rifle. anythign around a .243 or bigger would be choice for a lower range sniper rifle but I would reccomend a high powered .30 caliber round to do the job right a .308 or .300 winchester mag is what I would personally use but, then again I don't have anyone to shoot at these days.

"its hard to worry about where your going to end up when your the blacksheep already"

Blacksheep18-

quote:Originally posted by blacksheep18:

.22? um.... ok let get started here.

There are two kinds of .22's discussed so far.

.22's as in rimfire .22's they are about powerful enough to shoot small animals and target practice they are almost always 100% lead somtimes more expensive ones with a copper/brass jacket. The fastsest a rimfire .22 gets is around 1200 fps muzzle velocity, usually couple with a 30 grain load some get up to 38-40 grains and 1,000 fps now anyone who took a physics class and shoots or just shoots will tell you this is a very low energy bullet like I said fine for small animals and target shooting, meanwhile we have...

.223's these are what the AR-15's/ M16's shoot its a bullet usually around 55 grains going around 2,500 fps if I'm not mistaken. all bullets are held to tight tolerences and inside a copper jacket carefully seated into a long bottle-shaped centerfire case. the combination of more weight and doubled speed over a .22 rimfire makes this bullet a reasonably lethal combination for anything under 100 pounds and dangerous combination for anything under 250 pounds.

needless to say there are tons of bullets in between the .22 and the .223 but, I'll keep this simple anything below a .223 or similar is not going to be enough to really do anything at what people could call "sniper distance" meaning a .22 could not be a sniper rifle. anythign around a .243 or bigger would be choice for a lower range sniper rifle but I would reccomend a high powered .30 caliber round to do the job right a .308 or .300 winchester mag is what I would personally use but, then again I don't have anyone to shoot at these days.

"its hard to worry about where your going to end up when your the blacksheep already"

Blacksheep18-

Perhaps you forgot about the .22 magnum. A .22 magnum can push a 60 grain bullet over 2000 fps, which gives nearly 550 foot pounds of energy, and even down range 200 yards it will still have plenty of energy to kill even the toughest man standing on this earth.

The bullets I load in my .22 rifle push a 40 grain JHP close to 1800 fps will give you almost 300 pounds of foot energy, far better than just about any .380 load. Even a 40 grain bullet traveling 1000 fps wil have 100 pfe, and a .22 bullet with as little as 20 pfe can kill.

Shooting a person with a .22 will do nothing but piss someone off... if you shoot them in the foot. There are hundreds of true stories of fully grown men getting shot in the throat with a .22 SHORT, and dieing less than 5 minutes after getting shot. ITS ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT.

You can give one man a .22 LR and another a .308, and have them hunt eachother down. Yeah, we all know the 308 will kill at farther distance, but the man with the .22 can win everytime if he hits the right spot. A .308 to the leg will hurt like hell, but a .22 to the head WILL kill.

The main reason a .223 is used in the army is becuase of its ability to penitrate 1/4 or more of steel, and travel very far with a flat trajectory, so if someone was hiding behind something, they can still get them.

My main point is that a .22 to the head, even at 200 yards, has plenty of penitration and energy to kill anyone walking this earth.

quote:Originally posted by IcEColdPlaYA:

My main point is that a .22 to the head, even at 200 yards, has plenty of penitration and energy to kill anyone walking this earth.

that not exactly true, this one guy got shot in the head 10 time at point blank range with a .22 and not a single one of the bullets went through his skull, so he lived

yeah, and my girlfriend's neighbor's cousin's best friend jumped off a building and... you get the picture.

the point of using a more powerful caliber is that it gives you more options in terms of lethal shot placement... you get a much larger wound, much more stopping power, that sort of thing.

FYI, .223 rifles are used for competition at 1000 yards... when worked over right, they'll reliably hit within a few feet at that distance... sub-minute-of-angle shooting is easy at shorter distances. can you tell i like the caliber? also, they'll penetrate "bulletproof" vests that larger calibers won't, because they're so small and fast.

basically, if you're confident that you can hit the right spot, anything will work... a BB in the eye can disable as well as a .50 elephant gun to the foot... you just have a better chance with a bigger caliber. Anyway, back to the original topic; a .22 rimfire doesn't have the trajectory or stopping power to be reliable as a sniper weapon, though it may be accurate at the shooting range... also highly wind-sensitive, so not so good. .223 or 22-250 or 22 BR... more than good enough for most sniper duty.

just my 2 cents.

--W

Thats becuase the .22 bullet used was most likely a .22 short, which has about half the energy of a .22 long or a .22 long rifle.

Steppenwolf, you are right about the .22 being kind of wind sensitive, but as long as you use heavyier (50 grain +) bullets you will not have that many problems.

A .50 caliber round to the leg would be less effective than a pellet to the eye, since without an eye it would be pretty hard to aim your gun. Anyway, the point of most battles and wars is to injure the opposite side, so supplies and time are wasted on ones person.

Im not saying all of America should go into Iraq with 10/22s , but the .22 is probably the most underestimated caliber in the world, even though more people in the US are killed each year by a .22 than any other caliber.

quote:Originally posted by K'Ratak:

that not exactly true, this one guy got shot in the head 10 time at point blank range with a .22 and not a single one of the bullets went through his skull, so he lived

I've heard many scenarios like that it was probably one of those guns with a one inch barrel. I would never trust or rely on a 22 rim-fire short,long or magnum.

quote:Originally posted by CamoCougar:

yes, you can actually get sniper bullets, i think there called subsonic or something, by remington

"Sniper bullets" lol that's a new one.

If you want to use a .22 LR as a sniper rifle, load it up with Aguilas "Super Maximum" hollow points. They push a 40 grain HP over 1700 fps.

The CCI Stinger is also a good choice.

My slingshot is a good sniper"rifle". And so is my .117 pellet gun!

quote:If you want to use a .22 LR as a sniper rifle, load it up with Aguilas "Super Maximum" hollow points.

-that reminds me, I got to try them things.

........

quote:My main point is that a .22 to the head, even at 200 yards, has plenty of penitration and energy to kill anyone walking this earth.

Then why does the police or military bother with larger calibers? -And could you reliably hit a head-sized target at 200 yards with a .22LR rifle? That's the length of two (American-style) football fields. I own a couple pretty-good .22LR rifles and have shot a few real good ones in my life. It would definitely do damage to a human head at that distance, but 200 yards is a darn-long way to shoot a .22LR.

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It's an opinion, but I would say "No". Any rifle caliber you could choose would do better.

---New kid on the block is .17HMR, if you are financially and legally able. Inexpensive rifles are regularly hitting 5-shot groups inside a half-inch at 100 yards--try that with any .22LR. (By the by, I got the S&W .17 revolver. It is neat-o but rather useless at 100 yards. :D)

~

quote:Originally posted by CamoCougar:

yes, you can actually get sniper bullets, i think there called subsonic or something, by remington

Given the prevailing political climate, I highly doubt that any manufacturer would have the brass ones required to market a product even resembling special "sniper bullets."

quote:Originally posted by Bullwinkle8357:

If you want to use a .22 LR as a sniper rifle, load it up with Aguilas "Super Maximum" hollow points.

-that reminds me, I got to try them things.

........

quote:My main point is that a .22 to the head, even at 200 yards, has plenty of penitration and energy to kill anyone walking this earth.

Then why does the police or military bother with larger calibers? -And could you reliably hit a head-sized target at 200 yards with a .22LR rifle? That's the length of two (American-style) football fields. I own a couple pretty-good .22LR rifles and have shot a few real good ones in my life. It would definitely do damage to a human head at that distance, but 200 yards is a darn-long way to shoot a .22LR.

-----------

It's an opinion, but I would say "No". Any rifle caliber you could choose would do better.

---New kid on the block is .17HMR, if you are financially and legally able. Inexpensive rifles are regularly hitting 5-shot groups inside a half-inch at 100 yards--try that with any .22LR. (By the by, I got the S&W .17 revolver. It is neat-o but rather useless at 100 yards. )

~

Hes asking if it can be used as a sniper rifle. Not asking if it is the best sniper rifle. There are better rifles, but the .22 can be used as a sniper rifle.

As for those .17 HMR, half the people at other forums say they can kill a crow at 200 yards, but some say with even the slightest wind they cant even hit the crow or any similar sized target a 100 yards. With no wind, the 17 HMR is a great caliber, but with even the slightest wind the .17 grain bullet is easily pushed around.

But for the .22, Ill hit anything with it. Last summer I went down to Alabama to visit some relatives, and I thought I should bring my .22 since I rarely have anywhere to shoot. They had an old pic nic table about 105 yards from where I was shooting, and with my new scope I decided to test out the accuracy of the scope and the gun (it was a Ruger 10/22). After getting nearly 1 inch groups on a paper target, I decided to set out a quarter and see if I could hit it. To my suprise I hit the quarter 8 out of 10 times. Their yard wasnt much bigger than 100 yards, but I imagine I would have no problem hitting a human sized head at 200 yards.

[This message has been edited by IcEColdPlaYA (edited 07-22-2003).]

Subsonics are fun to play with, but I wouldn't use one for anything but target shooting at ranges over, say, 10 feet. They make no sonic boom, hence "subsonic."

True, the .22 is under-rated, especuially the .22 mag. I had one of those revolvers with interchangeable cylinders (.22 LR, .22 mag), and the difference between the two was astonishing.

But as a rule, sniping is done at distances that are just too great for even a .22 mag to be effective. For sniping, I'd go with a .30-.06 with a 4-10 power or so zoom scope.

For carrying concealed, a derringer with .22 stingers is nice. But here, where you have to worry about bears more than bad guys, I'll stick with Brunhilda, my .44 magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk, loaded with 300-grain Hornady jacketed hollowpoints. The thing is heavy and no way concealable, but it is one of the few handguns that will take down a grizz.

quote:Originally posted by benwarren105:

can a .22 be used as a sniper rifle becuase they are accurate and use very cheap ammo?

That would be the .22 Sniper SubSonic. It is a form of .22, but it uses a shortened .22LR case to accomodate a 60 grain projectile.

The .22 SSS is a heavy bullet that travels fairly fast, and has the .22's characteristic flat trajectory as a result.

Unlike a standard .22 or .22LR, though, it is a heavy projectile and as such is not blown off course by the slightest of winds.

And NO, a standard .22 WON'T kill you unless you hit in a vital area like the throat. Even aiming at the heart isn't very reliable, because a lot of the area is covered by ribs, and a .22 will bounce off without even breaking them. Also bear in mind that bulletproof vests have a trauma plate over the heart, so don't even think about shooting there with a .22.

The .22 SSS has enough power to be effective out to about 200m.

If you want a cheap sniper rifle, get a .223 or similar.

By the way, the .22 SSS is NOT a very effective sniper calibre. it is only used because it travels below the speed of sound, and is therefore able to be silenced very effectively.

What you could use a .22LR for is up to you, but every other rifle caliber available but two fires a bullet that is heavier than a .22LR's, at speeds that are greater than a .22LR. ~ The only two that don't are the .17 rimfire which is half the weight but 2.5 times the velocity of a .22LR, or the .17 Remington which is 3/5ths the weight but fires around four times the veolcity of a .22LR. Either of the .17's will shoot much more accurate than a .22LR will. A typical $750+ Anschutz .22LR sporter rifle will shoot five shots into maybe two inches at 100 yards, a $2500 Olympic-class .22LR rifle will shoot 5 shots into maybe one inch at 100 yards--and that's using Olympic-grade sorted ammo......

---(I am curious, do all you "200-yard .22LR marksmen" sort your ammo by lot number, weight and rim thickness?.....)---

........

A $500 bolt-action .17 rimfire rifle will easily shoot a half-inch at 100 yards, there are tests all over the internet showing as much. A .17 Remington will do even better than the .17 rimfire will. So therefore, it can be reasonably demonstrated that the .22LR is the worst possible choice for long-range shooting.

~



[This message has been edited by Bullwinkle8357 (edited 07-22-2003).]

-I wondered about that too... (hee-hee, .22LR's do not "travel fast and have flat trajectories"). I have never shot this stuff before, but the heavier bullets would arc even more than a regular .22LR would over whatever you consider their range to be, making them even less useful....

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number2/article3.htm

~

I'll have to give them a try, any volunteers to be the Snipee.

The truth is at 200 yards a .22 is not accurate or fast enough to do any damage.

The cartrige a long range marksman uses must be flat shooting wind resistant and have "down range stopping power" a .22 magnum is not qualified.

The "energy/stopping power" theory does NOT hold water it was originally devoloped in a physics lab on a static recepticle. The only reason it survives today is because of video games like counterstrike who emphasise muzzle energy. There is no correlation between true "stopping power" nd muzzle energy.

As for killing the toughest man on earth, no, no it won't. .223 remingtons have

richochet'ed off a mans skull at 10 yards.

the bottem line is anything below a .223 or a ballistic equivalent is not considered adeqate at extended distances over 150 yards.

quote:Originally posted by IcEColdPlaYA:

Perhaps you forgot about the .22 magnum. A .22 magnum can push a 60 grain bullet over 2000 fps, which gives nearly 550 foot pounds of energy, and even down range 200 yards it will still have plenty of energy to kill even the toughest man standing on this earth.

The bullets I load in my .22 rifle push a 40 grain JHP close to 1800 fps will give you almost 300 pounds of foot energy, far better than just about any .380 load. Even a 40 grain bullet traveling 1000 fps wil have 100 pfe, and a .22 bullet with as little as 20 pfe can kill.

Shooting a person with a .22 will do nothing but piss someone off... if you shoot them in the foot. There are hundreds of true stories of fully grown men getting shot in the throat with a .22 SHORT, and dieing less than 5 minutes after getting shot. ITS ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT.

You can give one man a .22 LR and another a .308, and have them hunt eachother down. Yeah, we all know the 308 will kill at farther distance, but the man with the .22 can win everytime if he hits the right spot. A .308 to the leg will hurt like hell, but a .22 to the head WILL kill.

The main reason a .223 is used in the army is becuase of its ability to penitrate 1/4 or more of steel, and travel very far with a flat trajectory, so if someone was hiding behind something, they can still get them.

My main point is that a .22 to the head, even at 200 yards, has plenty of penitration and energy to kill anyone walking this earth.

quote:With no wind, the 17 HMR is a great caliber, but with even the slightest wind the .17 grain bullet is easily pushed around.

----Depends on how far the shot is. Under 150 yards, the .17HMR has less wind deflection than any .22mag rimfire. I just read this in one of the big gun annual "catalog" magazines last night, but I was too cheap to pay the $10 to buy it.

----Under 200 yards, the only argument you can make at this point in time for a .22 mag rimfire over the 17 is that the 22 will penetrate deeper - but notice that isn't a fault inherent in the .17 caliber: you can buy solid .22 WMR and LR ammo if you wish, but all three .17HMR loads you can buy right now are all nearly identical (wide-mouth) hollowpoints, intended to explode on small varmints. In .22 mag rimfire, solid bullets penetrate far better than hollowpoints do. There's no reason not to expect the same from the .17, once the solid ammo becomes available.

~

quote:Originally posted by blacksheep18:



As for killing the toughest man on earth, no, no it won't. .223 remingtons have

richochet'ed off a mans skull at 10 yards.



I seriously doubt that a well aimed shot will richochet off an mans skull. Anyway, noone ever said you need to shoot through the skull to kill someone. Use a good .22 HP and a shot to the lungs or heart will kill, unless they are shot in the ER. Also, a shot through the eye with a .22 short will kill. It will go right through the eye and into the brain.

The ballistics at 10 yards doesnt really matter if you want to kill someone, unless you plan on shooting them in the stomach. A 1/4 inch hole through the brain is all that is needed to kill even the toughest man on earth.

OK yes there are a few .22cal sniper rifles some are .22cal LR but most are .22cal Mags. In Bosnia the rebels there found it extremely useful to use .22cal LR and .22cal Mags against Government Soldiers because at 100 to 200yards using just a simple popbottle painted black with a 1/2 hole in the end taped to the barrel made it almost impossible to pin point the sniper and with the accuracy given by a .22cal round a face or throat shot meant an almost instant kill.

What most people don’t know it that a .22cal mag is a very effective round with high MV (mussel velocity) and very little to no wind resistance and low mussel flash can be a very effective weapon against infantry.

Also with subsonic round at ranges of 100 yards or less even with out a sound suppressor a .22 can barely be hear. With its low Velocity but high kinetic energy it can easily enter someone’s skull and bounce around a few times inside causing instant death.



Also another benefit of a small caliber weapon like a .22 the round is so deformed on impact that most of the time it can never be positively identified and linked back to a weapon because the rifling striations are too deformed. Hell if you were to use HP (hollow point) rounds then they would simply shatter on impact with bone or hard material and be completely unidentifiable.

I think some of us are being a bit optimistic about the killing power of .22LR's and .22WMR's.

-------

An adult human male weighs about as much as an adult Whitetail deer, and there are lots of recorded kills on Whitetail deer. If we look at the smallest calibers commonly used for Whitetails, we see 30-30 (at short ranges), 25-06 (at medium ranges) and .270 (at longer ranges). People in the Central US do often use .30-06's and even occasionally .308's, but the 30-06 is a tradidional-type caliber, and .308's are popular for shooting cheap military and commercial reload ammo. You don't usually need a 30-06 or a 308, because even they can shoot considerably farther than a .270, whitetail deer are woodland and deep meadow animals and the longest shots you'll ever see are maybe 200 yards. A close shot might be 50 yards.

.....Now....

Nobody who expects to take anything home shoots at a deer with a fucking .22LR, or even with a .22WMR. A .223 is the LEGAL MINIMUM for whitetail deer in several states, and it is considered a poor choice because of its relatively low power, combined with its small-diameter bullet. A 30-30 beats it easy in killing power at close range. You cah shoot someone in the head with a .22LR from 300 yards and (if you hit them) they would be injured, but they are NOT going to just drop over dead. I haven't heard of anyone taking a .223 deerhunting, even though it is legal--to instantly knock down a full-grown 150-lb deer with one chest shot requires a lot of luck with that caliber.... If you're in deep woods, you use a 30-30. If you're working a wooded edge, you use a 25-06. If you're working a meadow pass, you use a .270.

-----------

If you want to find out really how much "knock down power" a gun caliber has, all you need to do is look up what sizes of animals are successfully hunted with it regularly, and at what ranges. .22LR's are used for rabbits, squirrels and various close-range (<20 yards) backyard pests. .22WMR's are used on foxes and coyotes out to around 200 yards. .17HMR's are working well on coyotes out to around 150 yards. You could shoot at a bull elephant with a .22LR and certainly hit it, but it will turn around and stomp you to death today, and die of septic infection sometime next month.

~

I have never heard of any military using 22lr for anything, only an untrained incompetent sniper would bother with a 22lr.

The .22 is a popular choice at the Chinese border.

I know of plenty of people who hunt with the .223, some of them post at glocktalk. The all say they drop as if they were hit with a .30-30.

The .22 is not a effective long range killer, but inside of 100 or 200 yards, a well placed shot is a guarenteed death. No, it might not kill someone with a chest shot like a .30-06 or .308, but a shot to the throat or a soft part on the skull will kill.

The main reason hunters dont use the .22 is becuase most .30 rifles give quicker, and more humane kills, even though there are plenty stories of deer dropping with a single .22 bullet to the head.

I know a police officer of nearly 25 years, and he knows from experience how deadly the .22 is. He remembers 200 pound men getting shot with a .22 pistol to the head, and didnt live for 5 minutes after getting hit. There was also a man that got shot in the side of the neck, and when it hit the spine, it ricocheted and tore up his throat, killing him instantly.

All police, CSI, and just about all pathologists will tell you that the .22 kills more people in the US than ANY OTHER caliber.

What professional marksman would aim for a headshot with a .223 rem? none. I assure you its happened more than a few times in combat world wide. I understand this whole "headshot" thing is atractive and all being the balistic acheales heel BUT, once again your getting into the realm of video games and movies. A professional does not aim for anything less than a torso unless there are special circumstances. what are special circumstances? it all depends on who you work for but, special circumstances are always somthing an operative could not have prepared for ahead of time. In the real world where powerful stimulants and the level of truama induced shock varies from person to person many people beleive a 5.56 is insufficient even more beleive the 9mm is insufficient. I'm not sure where exactly the line is drawn but, I know for sure .22's are a poor choice for anything above 20 pounds. The only reason most deaths are from 22's is because they're saturday night specials. Not to mention death within 5 minutes is NO substitute for instantanious shock, the original intent is to neutralize whoever is posing a threat a .22 will not do this.

22lr is a glorified toy.

The Walther P22 is kinda pimp though.

quote:Originally posted by Armed&Angry:

Given the prevailing political climate, I highly doubt that any manufacturer would have the brass ones required to market a product even resembling special "sniper bullets."

Search for 22 sniper and click on the first result.

[This message has been edited by Third_Rail (edited 07-28-2003).]

I love those P22's myself, the compensators are a little too much for such a little gun though.

The only reason we don't see "sniper" is to be politically correct. The police refer to their snipers as "sharpshooters" "specialty marksmen" it varies dept. to dept. they don't even call the training "sniper school" anymore at least for LE the army could't give a fuck for being P.C. but we all knew that already. The clandestine method for real sniper ammo is just called "hunting ammo" its made for hitting flesh and being as accurate as possible just prepared to pay 15.00 for a box of 10 or 20 of the good stuff.

lol welcome to the politically correct twenty-first century society. Enjoy your stay!

A lot of you say that the 22LR is not accurate at 200 yds. Tell that to the guys who shoot silhouette at 200yds offhand. That being said, yes they can make a target ting at 200 yards, but to kill someone at that range would require a neck or head shot. And that would be iffy at best. I can shoot groundhogs in the head at 250yd with my 22-250, but I would not consider it the best candidate for a sniper rifle. 308 is pretty much the standard issue for police and military sniper rifles, I would not want anything less and would probably go for something with a little bit more ass.

All I hear these days is headshots "headshot this" "headshot that" I was maybe expecting 1 or 2 people to be spooks or awols maybe one real deal small time op, eh, oh well no professionals anymore least its still a free market.

I personally would never use any rimfire for personal protection and expect reliablity. Espically in semiautomatic platform.

Twenty two caliber (short, lr, mag) are fine for learning the fundamentals of shooting.

However 9X19MM isn't that much expensive when it comes to range quality practice ammunition.

i wouldnt say what i have is a snipers rifle.per say. but i have a savage mark II FV .22 rifle with weaver rings and a fixed 8 power scope i got from kalinkaopticswarehouse.com and i fixed my trigger pull to a lil over 1.5 lbs . the rifle weighs about 10 lbs with the scope and the 20 inch long 3/4 inch thick bull barrel. at 100 yards with remington golden bullet hollow points my rifle ALWAYS prints 1 inch groups always and its just as good and at 150 yards itll open up to about 2 inches with all ten shots in my clip. i have to give credit to my scope and trigger for the accuracy . i had a4-12 power on it but the variable was always changing the POI(point of impact)the 8 power scope is perfect for that rifle it has a german post reticle just so u all know thats my "sniper"rifle for u all

http://www.chestnutridge.com/products/ammo.asp

there are some here

In WW2, the British had .22LR's decked out with scopes for sniping, and they were issued to town folk who were trained just in case the Germans came knocking on the door.

I've noticed alot of the people on this thread offer advice on what they have HEARD. This is alot different to what they have done/seen. Alot of these people probably just read about guns and have never/barely ever shoot guns at all.

Now. The .22LR is good on humans to about 50m (so i've heard ). The guy who compared humans to whitetail deer, humans have softer bones and flesh, and are much easier to kill than deer.

.223/.222 is great for hitting people out to about 600m (when sniping and going for heart/lung shots) or 300m open sights.

.22-250 is even better.

.220 Swift is what you really want for sniping, but I guess you want rimfire ammo.

For the .22LR go for the Winchester Laser ammo, its a supersonic round.

The .22wmr is effective probably to 80m.

Hope this helps.

This is all my opinion based on shooting I have done WITH REAL GUNS and NOT read in a book.

Hmmmm......

apparently any rifle with a scope becomes a "sniper" rifle.

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger.htm

----

It would be interesting to hear of the longest ranges the IDF used this thing at.... I have a feeling since most of what they do is essessntially street fighting, they rarely ever took shots over 50 yds with it.

----

I would point out however a couple things:

one is that the weapon is shown and mentioned with using a 10-round magazine. Another is that it is fairly beaten up. The 10 round limit means they don't expect to use this thing in a firefight--you can't rapid-fire cast-bullet guns, since the bullets melt in the barrel and lead it up. The beaten-up condition seems to indicate that this gun is a special-purpose arm, not for general use at all--nice to have when needed, but not really nnecessary (else they would be keeping it in better condition). The high scope-mount would be delicate; a red-dot would be more compact, more rugged and probably do just as well at typical ranges.

~



[This message has been edited by Bullwinkle8357 (edited 10-05-2003).]